PREVIOUS THREAD: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/44872716/
CHARACTERS AND PLACES: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19gNVgtevar647l4ZumUaVH6GlJzvxLlDNKaH8DrQMWE/edit?usp=sharing
WEBCOMIC 'CAUSE Y'ALL ASKED: http://wildwestscifi.net/gallows-humor/13683-gallows-humor-prologue
You are Brianna la Croix, journeyman necromancer, and this morning is going better than expected, considering that you went to bed slathered in enough blood to fill a tub.
"Here's what I want," you tell Nathan and Amy. "I want to actually relax and take a break today. After yesterday...fuck, after yesterday I need it. We all need it. Literally everyone here needs it and the only reason the medics aren't taking one is they're irreplaceable. But," you continue, "I...may...be bad at relaxing."
"No," Nathan says, scandalized. "Who's told you such lies? Name the slanderous cur, that I might meet them in battle!"
"You've been spending too much time with my cock, Sir Sarcasm," you chide. "So what I'm thinking is that we catch Victoria and Scribbles up over breakfast, and then I'll ask you two to help keep me...well, off-task."
"We've been having thoughts about that," Amy admits. "...Kinda feels like maybe we've left you out of things at times."
"Or not left you out exactly, but..." Nathan coughs. "Like the festival, when we had our moment, and -"
"You're gonna walk headlong into saying something extremely stupid," you murmur. "I was having a moment of my own, remember?"
"Are you saying you don't feel that way?" Amy asks, seriously.
> I...I dunno, a little? I'm new at this too y'know.
> Not at all. We all have our moments with each other.
> No, but now I'm curious about your idea regardless.
Okay folks. I know I do this a lot, and I /am/ sorry, but I need to go to bed. I shouldn't even have stayed up late enough for /this/, but I have a routine and I wanted to keep it.
...Though if we're being honest the thread was also delayed slightly by a friend gut-punching my feels with her poetry.
Votes will remain open until I wake up and handle chores, paycheck, and bills. In the meantime, questions, comments, critique, discussion, and feedback are welcome and appreciated.
Thank you all for reading and participating!
> I...I dunno, a little? I'm new at this too y'know.
Yeah, this is a new experience for everyone involved. It's easy to feel left out a little, when you've got such a loose grip on knowing how to relax.
> Can we make like the frame from the iron and all the joints/musculature/cabling from wraith steel?And reverse for the wings if weight is an issue?
Brought up in the last thread. It does make a good point... how are we going to attach the leg to Nate? Like, what scheme do we go with?
I was thinking we graft it directly to his bones.
That has the advantage that he has a more direct connection to it (good for control and a feeling of "wholeness", if that makes sense) and can't be taken off. Plus, it's very stable, which is good for combat. The living metal part will likely help with that.
The other point of complexity is then the ankle joint, which may be doable with 4 flexible curved plates of living metal. Or a ball joint? But how that is controlled then is the more pertinent question. Plates might be more reliable.
Can't exactly extend his sinews as well to control it, can we?
...wait, we might actually be able to. Cable the whole thing.
There isn't much actual "muscle" required in this artificial leg, if I see that right. The important parts are attachment to him and articulating/controlling the ankle.
I say we just make it with magic and trust that to take care of the animate parts. As in we just assemble it like a stripped down version of a leg and let it move itself like Nates sword.
As for grafting directly to the bones, that is how you get infections. There are really good reasons why we don't do that. So I say we trust magic once again and just gloss over how it attaches or meld it with the bodies some how.
Keep on mind that how feet are designed affects all the muscles above it for soreness and whatnot when walking. So let's not get sidetracked making them weird or anything.
I think we are actually on our way of doing bone grafts, so this is not entirely out of the question for either world. (Magic or not.)
>No. Considering myself and Nate here, I wasn't intending to be surprised when two of us start getting it on while the third is getting some Me time.
>Besides, it's much preferred than the alternative: I wouldn't quite know how to react if you got turned on by my blood-covered visage.
>but now I'm curious about your idea regardless.
I gotta be honest folks; this is another one of those cases where I'm looking at narrative details rather than technical ones. Much like with firearms (...and ships...) I am not nearly educated enough to handle the nitty-gritty of prosthetics and the consequences of these different materials when used to make them in a technical sense.
My concern with answering the question regarding a combination iron/wraithsteel setup is likewise narrative. You're asking for detail at a level of zoom to which I cannot go. I'm glad to hear the enthusiasm - and please, don't stop sharing ideas - but when it comes to what'll happen and be offered in the actual quest, it's gonna be at that narrative level where I feel comfortable.
Vhat is this and vhy should I have one? Thus far questions have been handled in the threads, which I kinda like.
'm awake, obviously. I need to handle the Foretold Morning Shit but then I've got the day off. I'll be calling the vote and/or updating in an hour, hour and a half or so, depending on things like if my paycheck's in and how long dishes, cleaning, etc takes on my end.
>Vhat is this and vhy should I have one
It's a site where you can post questions to users; most QMs use it to manage questions so they can just say "check the ask" instead of "dig through all the eariler threads, it's in there somewhere"
>>44920363 >>44920662 >>44921125
I should add that it's comparable to twitter, except more character and more focused usage.
Which I recall you adamantly refuse to get, and only got a FB due to enforced work reasons.
It wouldn't be something you'd want to use.
Which Vox has.
It's just not that extensive and not updated enough.
Because he's normally too busy actually writing the quest.
Also ask is better for quests that don't run LITERALLY ALL THE TIME.
Also multiple pages mean we can do like we have done, referencing a specific thread and even linking directly to a post within a thread.
I have not found that ability on ask.fm .
You shrug, not dismissively, but thoughtfully. "I won't say that it's not sometimes surprising in the moment," you admit. "But, y'know, that's to be expected. We're all still figuring out how this works, and after the moment passes I don't feel left out, just..." you gesture vaguely. "I dunno, late to the party? Nate, you know what I mean?"
"Kinda like when Amy told me about your adventure to her private spot," he says thoughtfully. "Not bad, just sorta that 'aww' feeling?"
"Exactly," you agree. "Ames, Nate and I are both folks who sometimes need to be alone. Admittedly him a bit more than me, but it wouldn't be fair or even sane to ask the two of you to also be alone while I'm having me time. That's absurd."
Amy nods, thoughtfully. "I think I get it."
"I still wanna hear your idea, though," you add, tilting your head curiously at the bird.
"Oh! Right, so," Amy begins. "I've mostly been the instigator of the quality time, because Nate is bad at suggesting it the way you're bad at relaxing."
"Hey!" the Hero protests.
"So what I figure is, today you'll spend time with Nate, and then when this all is done here in the Mine I'll ambush you with Shankbird Day."
You mull the thought over, then nod. "It's not a bad idea. We could all use time to get to know each other better too."
Your stomach rumbles. "...Let's get Victoria and Scribbles."
You look around the Shaft and somehow cannot spot the pair, which is amazing considering that one of them is a fucking snake-woman.
Then you have an idea.
"I'm offering an interview," you say clearly, and like fucking sorcery, the lamia zips to your side, leaving a trail in the dust of the tunnel from her tail.
"Yousaidinterview?" Scribbles says eagerly, her pencil poised over her notebook.
"I didn't know how else to get your attention," you admit.
Collecting Victoria only takes a moment. Finding a spot to talk on the other hand, proves more challenging. Eventually you build a small fire circle and start camp breakfast going, with Amy cooking while the rest of you alternately help and/or attempt to relax.
The first time you reached for the pot to lend a hand, Amy tagged you with her spoon.
"So," Victoria suggests. "What's going on?"
> Tell it like it is
> Downplay your own accomplishments
> Exaggerate for effect
> Tell Scribbles about Lora
> Do not tell Scribbles about Lora
> Ask how much Scribbles actually knows
>> Tell it like it is
> Ask how much Scribbles actually knows
We'll confirm or deny any theory or knowledge Scribbles brings up, but won't directly fuck everything if she doesn't have any idea.
>Tell it like it is
It's not that I'm purposely trying not to look like much, but I wonder how you're going to spin a hero who refused the frontlines and is just sticking around the medics
We personally convinced a faerie to ally with a Woundseeker, undid the spell making the Baron's overseers invulnerable, and then used our medical knowledge to heal the wounded during battle, including saving the life of aforementioned faerie while she suffered from an acute case of having half of her covered in molten iron. What part of that sounds less than heroic to you?
While medical knowledge is more advanced in this setting, I doubt it's seen as "heroic" as it is now.
You ever notice how epics always depicts the heroes as obtaining the secret medicine/ingredients made by OTHER people, and APPLIED by other people?
Bri transitioned from main character to wise old sage person midstory.
you think journalists cater only to intellectuals? They're basically bards, spreading the tale to the masses. Now I don't know how they'll still spin the medic parts as heroic, hence >>44925189
You spin that by the fact she made it possible for others to win, and directly took to -saving- people. Instead of killing people before they could kill others.
Bri indeed has been taking the role of commander, but it's not hard to spin that as "enabling visible heroics".
Hey. I'm the one who said "magic handwave" for that stuff lol.
I just want to spice up our living metal with a bit of fire aspect and turn Amy into a Phoenix. As for the foot, well that was a holdover from before we got the elemental Iron when I thought we might not have enough wraith steel for a fake foot so I thought we could use just a little for joints/tendons so it could move and then the rest of the foot would be mundane material. So that we could have our cake and eat it too.
Sorta like pic related? You might want actual fire rather than the forge beast, which is a lot more metal and a lot less flame.
I suppose it was inevitable.
Finally free from the real life demon. Votes called, tallying, writing. I may or may not acquire moonshine again tonight. I left the other jar at the buddy's house 'cause fuuuuuck getting pulled over with that within 100 feet of my car, fuck that.
(I don't drive drunk. I don't drive buzzed. But the cops around here are pretty firm about open container laws).
You mean like
(A thief's dagger)?
Ribbed For Their Pleasure
"Okay, so," you begin, earning your second spoon hit when you reach for a pot to place it on the fire. Gods, that smarts. "We arrived in the /Swan Song/ just fine, though admittedly a little worse for, y'know, the stupidity of the journey to begin with."
Scribbles writes furiously into her notebook, and you roll your eyes before you continue.
"We met up with Lark, who is the heretical madman responsible for those cigarettes, and -"
"SOMEONE MAKES THOSE ON PURPOSE?" Scribbles interrupts, shocked.
"Not just on purpose," you tell her solemnly. "He strives hard every day to seek a worse smoke."
"But /why/?" the lamia asks, aghast.
"I won't disservice him by paraphrasing his words. Let the man himself tell you," you say loyally. "Actually, you know what, speaking of..." Scribbles watches in horror as you light one of Lark's specials and put it between your lips. "Much better. I always tell a better story with a smoke anyway. Where was I?"
"You made contact with Lark," Victoria says helpfully, smiling wryly at her friend's consternation.
"Thank you. Lark was helpful in catching us up. The first thing we did was seek out Diving Shadow and inform her that her daughter had come home. There were...conflicts...at first, but that lead directly into storming the prison compound the Baron was maintaining. Those people are now free."
"This lead the Baron to counterattack the Company Store," Nathan cuts in; you let him talk while you enjoy (despise?) your cigarette.
"Is that where you lost your leg?" Scribbles asks.
"Oh. No, that was hunting a massive wraithsteel snake with Miss Silence and her Miners."
"...DETAILS," Scribbles says excitedly.
"Later," Nathan deflects.
"No, now!" Scribbles pleads, looking to you for support.
> Suggest she take Nathan aside for details (ask Victoria how much Scribbles knows)
> Encourage Nathan to give the details
> Details can wait
Votes called, writing. Moonshine acquired as well. This is a good night.
We also may have an artist willing to help with the design of the la Croix family crest! I've got some vague ideas going at the moment but I'm taking suggestions. He'll be along...shortly.
There has to be something related to inevitability, though fuck me as to what.
Also redemption. Maybe a skeletal hand reaching down to grab a human(oid) one (like pic, the skeletal one being the one reaching down)?
The la Croix are MORTALITY, not inevitability.
Dying is of course inevitable, but they're not about general inevitability.
They'd say something a lot vaguer than "no one chooses to be born, no one chooses to die" if they were.
Quick search on 'emblems of mortalty' on googles produces http://www.masonicinfo.com/mortality.htm
Obviously not the only thing the la Croix crest would have, and could not actually include direct symbolism to mortality.
It could choose to only allude to general death.
I think that would be a bit too focused on necromancy. It sounds like a fantastic start, but the la Croix are also about "doing the needful thing".
I like this as a start. The family's always been friends to death, but I'm not sure the ankh is going to work; they're the family 'of the cross'. When their name formalized and they ended up with status, that cross symbol stuck around.
The cross for them can /be/ the death symbol, I think. Cross-and-roses? Hrm...
The la Croix got their family name because of where they're from, not from a more intimate connection to it. The homeland of the la Croix was very into crucifixion, not the actual la Croix.
The name later came to be connotated with crossroads by outsiders. Obviously this wouldn't happen if the family symbol proudly displayed their origin for everyone.
Which makes me wonder if the la Croix embrace this rereading of their name, or disregard it. Vox, mind saying?
The la Croix embrace both ends; you'll note that Brianna leaves crosses for her headstones? They faced great tribulations and emerged from them as survivors. They didn't ask for the cross to become their name but when it did they chose to wear it with pride - proof of their grit.
Lilies instead of roses. But blooming bot full bloom to represent what is to come hasn't arrived yet.
Anyways, prosthetic medic anon here. I am not upset at all by the iron being more metal than flame. That actually makes it better. Bound flame, not wild but still burning. A god metaphor for Amy's new found sense of responsibility. Tempered.
I stand corrected.
The common outsider takes the la Croix cross to be 'crossroads' because the average common outsider is a FUCKING IDIOT. Just like real life, I forgot that.
It also means the la Croix have no compulsion to correct that error, though.
I only vaguely remember maybe the necromancer getting a cross of compacted dirt? I don't really remember.
I like the partial bloom idea, but why lilies specifically?
Also, any thought of the crest including text? I believe some crests do, and 'memento mori' actually showing up wouldn't be a suprise.
"You don't get out of this one, Hero," you tell Nathan with a chuckle. "Go tell her."
"But -" Nathan catches your significant look, flicks his gaze to Victoria, and understands. "Over here, Scribbles."
"What about Vic -"
"I'm fine," Victoria promises. Scribbles follows Nathan away from the fire, writing furiously while he settles into a storytelling rhythm.
"Okay," Victoria says, the moment her friend is gone. "What did you need to talk about?"
"How much does Scribbles know?"
"She knows that Brigette wronged a powerful angel. She knows that Brigette has been sentenced to serve that angel in penance. And..." Victoria sighs. "She knows that Brigette will out-live me. Will watch me wither and die and leave her behind while she remains young."
"...I hadn't thought of that," you say softly.
"I was complicit in my lover's crime," Victoria says, her eyes pained behind her glasses. "No justice has fallen upon my head. This, then, must be my punishment."
> No, that's - no!
> ...Yeah, I suppose it is.
> Honestly, after the shit I've seen? You got off light.
A Roman Cross, splintered in half. Black and Silver.
The black side looks like its made from charred bone. The Silver side looks its made from silver stained with blood.
Surrounding this cross is a halo of light shaped like red rose petals
How about a simple black wood (not as in charred) cross inset in a silver outline with a live hand chained/nailed on the left, and a skeletal hand chained/nailed to the right? Possible blood embellishments around?
> ...Yeah, I suppose it is. For her too though. But hey. Who knows what life holds, and while I can't say the punishment isn't just, mercy exists as well. Also, ghosts and such are a thing. So your relationship might not end, just . . . Change. True love makes weird shit happen.
>> No, that's - no!
Going against the grain here. People do stupid things when they're in love, and Brigette at least regrets her actions. Maybe we want to have a word with Lora about this whole eternity thing.
Every other soul of a Chain Holder has passed on, and will meet the judgement for their sins. Let Brigette serve out her sentence over a century or two, and then meet with Victoria in the end. Or just hold them both together.
Yeah, it's a punishment. But is just causing suffering on both sides really that good? Especially when every other Chain Holder is just going on to the Sunless Lands? Albeit in an extremely brutal and terrifying manner before going straight on to hell?
Aim to be rightful, if you can.
An angled cross that looks also like a cross roads, with the setting sun behind it and lilies twined around it. Underneath it says in Latin equivalent "We do the job in front of us."
> ...Yeah, I suppose it is.
God, I feel for Victoria, I really do... but the standard you do nothing to stop, even when the have the opportunity, is the standard you accept. I'm pretty sure she never meant to hurt anyone, but she did, all the same.
> Every other soul of a Chain Holder has passed on, and will meet the judgement for their sins. Let Brigette serve out her sentence over a century or two, and then meet with Victoria in the end. Or just hold them both together.
Lora's sword wasn't sobbing until she started collecting souls with it. They're currently trapped in her blade and awaiting an uncertain fate.
The idea that she isn't culpable for the actions of her bedfellows is ridiculous. She knew what was going on. I don't know at what step she found out, but when she learned the horrors and atrocities her compatriots were committing and chose to do nothing but hide amongst her books in compliance, letting hundreds perish and suffer on a vague promise of "muh god language will fix all the wrongs" she became an abettor of all their crimes.
Cowardice is no excuse. Death is preferable to being part of such grisly deeds. The only reason I think she deserves not to be smited by Lora is no one deserves to be tortured for what appears to be eternity in that sword, not even monsters like the Vintner, the Moneychanger or The Baron. Of course, if someone has to go in the sword, they're at the top of the list for volunteers.
Cherry's unnamed father on the other hand seems to be some shitty peasant who fell upon economic times who abandoned his daughter as a useless mouth to feed , a daughter he likely beat. An asshole for fucking sure, but the dead wife and the economic situation make me understand, if not condone his actions.
Essentially the father is indirectly responsible for one death while Bridgette is indirectly responsible for hundreds of dead by continuing to be a part of The Master's Schemes even after realizing what was going on.
Of course, this is what I've inferred. I don't know for sure if this is exactly the circumstances but it sure seems like it.
Thank you for expanding, anon. I appreciate it.
Calling in eight minutes. Late-night life stuff, then I gotta tuck in so I can be up early and get my car into the shop. Having bits of the engine literally zip-tied to other bits of the engine is not making me comfortable on the road.
>Lora's sword wasn't sobbing until she started collecting souls with it.
... Aaaand that's creepy.
I can't exactly imagine she'll keep them there forever, but eh. I imagine if she has favors with anyone, she'll pull everything she can to send them to whatever fills in for hell in the eternal damnation department.
Oh yeah, that should have said directly responsible. Especially since he specifically dropped her off in the forest rather than take her to an orphanage or something, assuming he could get away with that. Of course, whether or not the daughter was truly a financial burden on him varies my level of sympathy greatly. Letting your daughter die for extra beer money is a lot more heinous than actually being at the end of your rope.
But frankly, the guy could have been a fucking pedophile and that amounts to maybe one tenth of the inhumane fucked up shit that JUST the Vintner is responsible for, not to mention all the horrific shit the other eleven assholes are/were probably doing.
Brigette: points for good intentions, negative loads of points for horrible shit and being directly and indirectly responsible for an incertain but high number of deaths. neutral for being human on the preservation of her own life and her lovers over strangers.
Abusive-Murderdad: negative a fair bit for abusing his child (apparently, I'll take anons word for it, I don't feel like looking) and leaving her to die a slow death. and possibly (unconfirmed, or misremembered on my part) telling people his daughter was missing to remove suspicion.
Brigette is objectively worse. but she at least. started off with good intentions. Dad is just scum, put your child up for adoption, or a relative who cares, at least try to do the better thing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Cherry say that her father told her that "She killed Mommy"? I assumed that the mother died in childbirth and the father resented Cherry for it and at some point couldn't take it anymore and left her to die.
That was my interpretation of it anyways.
I'm curious how much you think Brigette's ability or lack thereof to actually stop them plays into her responsibility. Like, obviously if she could have simply shut the whole operation down, and chose not to do so, she doesn't deserve much sympathy. Presumably she had some lesser amount of power than that. So let's go to the opposite extreme. Let's say Brigette would have been totally unable to stop or even impede the Master and co., whatever she did. What effect does that have on her moral culpability for their actions? Is she still responsible because she chose to work with them, or is her responsibility based solely on the harm she could actually have prevented?
...Are any anons here Lawyers or Judges. possibly some other kind of person qualified to discuss the ethics of choosing yours and your partners life over other peoples? because this shit is complicated.
Yes, that was very heavily implied. Adds to the sympathy, but irrationally hating a child for being born is still not excuse for letting her starve to death.
>Is she still responsible because she chose to work with them
Yes, but only if she was aware of what they were doing.
If she was truly ignorant of their crimes or the vast extent of them, she is relatively innocent. That does not appear to be the case.
>Yes, but only if she was aware of what they were doing.
Is an employee who works for a despicable company guilty of the company's crimes that he is knowledgeable of? What if he's just the cashier or janitor or whatnot? What could that guy possibly do that wouldn't endanger him or his family?
She did have the option to shut the whole thing down. the conditions were that she would have to hand over her research to Richard ( the Master). She chose not to. She chose to join them (I assume), she chose to stay, and she is responsible for the fates of the caretakers of floor 3.
as for her ability to impede the Master, I doubt that there is anything any of the chain holders can do to impede him besides surrendering or leaving. And surrender means that Lora gets her hands on them, so I doubt there will be many takers.
The man problem is figuring out where to draw the line and when she was aware she had crossed it.
(I'm going to say before chaining Lora, because that would be a pretty obvious "This crossing some kind of line" regardless of Lora's history.)
>Is an employee who works for a despicable company guilty of the company's crimes that he is knowledgeable of?
>What if he's just the cashier or janitor or whatnot? What could that guy possibly do that wouldn't endanger him or his family?
I would like to state here that Bridgette is much more of a board member than a cashier.
I think anon was implying that informing the authorities was also dangerous.
>Is an employee who works for a despicable company guilty of the company's crimes that he is knowledgeable of? Yes.
This is correct in the majority of situations. no problems here
>I would like to state here that Bridgette is much more of a board member than a cashier.
Agreed. That was mostly to show my point.
In Bridgette's case who would that be?
Maybe perhaps, Bri? Like she did at the party?
Other than us who could she have gone to?
Interesting. I'd tend to disagree, but I suspect it's more a difference of ethical philosophy than of one of us being somehow "wrong" in any objective way.
Personally, I'm what ethicists call a utilitarian. I like to think of things in terms of delta-happiness. In other words, the moral goodness or badness of an action is a function of how much happiness is gained or lost to the world as a result of that action. Given this, it makes sense to judge Brigette on harm she perpetrated or enabled, and on harm she didn't stop when she had the chance. It does not, however, make sense in this framework to judge her based on the actions of those around her, unless she was in a position to affect those actions. If their crimes remain the same whether Brigette works with them for not, her working with them produces zero delta-happiness, and thus is neither good nor bad.
Of course, I'm not saying their crimes do remain exactly the same. In fact, I'm quite sure Brigette's involvement changed things, although I couldn't say exactly how. Which is the crux of the problem. Treating ethics like math is hard when you don't have all the relevant information.
And then I lost the post.
I need to hit bed, folks. Votes re-opened until I get up in the morning.
As always, questions, comments, discussion, feedback, and critique remain both welcome and appreciated. You guys help me improve!
Thank you all for reading and participating.
I have a friend who recently applied to work for the TSA, and is expecting to be hired shortly. Now, the TSA is a really discriminatory agency towards many groups, and my friend knows this. Thing is, this is not a secret. The authorities already know, and they're not doing shit to fix the problem. There's really no one to report to, no way to fix the problem. Given that, is my friend responsible for their discriminatory practices? I mean, she does know about them, and she is fully intending to work for the TSA anyway. Nevermind that she's vocally against those practices, and figures she can at least make them a little less discriminatory when she's there.
Anybody? She could have sent Victoria out (to relative safety, mind you) to inform the fucking world about the fucked up shit going down in the dungeon. She didn't. She hid among her books while Split was being torn apart. While the Vintner was torturing. While the Baron was enslaving. To say she could have ABSOLUTELY ZERO positive impact is most likely false.
And even if by some miraculous circumstance, no alternative choice by her helps stop these heinous crimes, she still chose to continue working with them.
Of course, like I said earlier. I believe death is preferable to being party to such acts. Rebellion and resistance would be my initial reaction. There is a level of atrocity where valuing your own life over any attempts to stop it, to me, makes one not a morally good person. But even when I step back from that and go, okay, some people would want to preserve their lives, there's a difference between 'not morally good' and 'morally bad'. Bridgette still pings the 'morally bad' department.
She did much more than "preserve" her life. She profited immensely off those crimes. She had power over an entire floor of the dungeon. She had access to loads of knowledge. She should have been too repulsed by the disgusting nature of the stations she was afforded to go along with it all. And yet she did. And she fought Bri to the bitter end to keep the status quo. To keep the crimes going. Bridgette would have killed Bri and let the Baron continue his grisly control over the mine because she was a coward.
>I believe death is preferable to being party to such acts.
No offense, but whenever I hear someone say "Death is preferable to commiting X horrible crime" it comes off as kind of hollow, considering most people would in fact go along with it if it meant living, and they didn't know the people they were hurting.
There' this lovely disconnect when it's no one you care about, that makes people pull a great big "Fuck you, I want to live"
anon. You seem a bit Naive, I mean this in a good way, keep your ideals. but don't judge horrible actions originating in self preservation.
yes she did bad things. a significant fraction, if not a majority would do the same without people to support them in making the right decision.
then again, I'm a bit cynical.
The TSA is not as bad as the Vintner. The level of badness is not directly relevant to what I'm trying to get at. I'm trying to get at how responsibility works. When are you responsible for the harm someone else does, and why?
Also, I hate to point this out, anon, but are you a member of western society? Because if so, you're benefiting from an institution that hurts people for profit and comfort. Not even for live, just so we can have smartphones and shit. And we're talking harm on a scale that the Vintner could never even imagine. I mean, read up on electronics companies in China, or almost any natural resource in Africa. Anon, we hurt people, and by and large, we're okay with it. I'm not saying that's right. It's not. I'm saying we're all basically Brigette.
Brigette couldn't have shut the whole thing down, for one. It seems to me that by the time she started to realize just what she had done, she'd already been bound by contract. She literally couldn't back out. And while she could have left, there'd be someone else with her chain then. And her research would've gone to them, something which I'm emphatically sure would've been much worse for everyone involved.
Imagine if some of the other Chain Holders could've broken out the Divine Language. We'd have been in some serious trouble.
Add to that, she jobbed as hard as she could against us, and was basically willing to go suicide by cop. And afterward, she was a suicide risk... Not that I'm completely sure Lora would've /let/ her die, but still.
We saved her. She's going to spend the rest of her life, however long it is, in the atheneum working for Lora. I'm not a fan of the whole 'eternal' suffering thing, especially when she's doing a good job of beating herself up over it. Shall we just give them a little happiness?
Bridgette is of a level much higher and more extreme than that of the individual citizen.
Bridgette is one of 13 who are responsible for the situation of the dungeon.
We as a society of millions are responsible for the misfortune of millions.
The level of guilt, responsibility and need for justice is distinctly different.
You are comparing the equivalent of petty theft to armed robbery.
I don't know if I can say where the line is when you are responsible for the harm someone else does, it's probably a bit hazy and arguable.
What I am saying, is that even if the line is fuzzy, Bridgette has quite clearly passed it.
She didn't get much god-speech research done before Master came in, Lora had that shit locked down.
Then he bound Lora and had her lift the restrictions; at the same time binding Bridge to the chain with the enforced contract to hand over the research to somebody else to continue.
Initially, everything seemed on the upside, so Bridge went in with at least halfgood intentions (binding the angel for greater good stuff)
When the shit of other chainholders came up, only way to keep her research out of Master's hands was to suicide and submit to eternal torment at Lora's hands.
And then he would've found another researcher; he'd have to start from scratch but he'd get it anyway.
So really, sticking in the position was the only way to stall Master from getting the god speech.
OK let's try this another way. Bridgette is in control of nuclear armaments for a violent and corrupt regime. The authority that matters is the Master who she works for, if she somehow left the country someone else would gain control of the nukes and then there'd be a war.
However with enough time she might learn how to make herself into fucking spiderwoman or some shit and take out the corruption herself and fix all of the wrong doings caused by her government.
What should she have done?
Brigette is also defending her life, whereas the average western citizen is defending their comfort. Think about that, anon. People die by the thousands, suffer by the millions, so we can have the latest tech. Brigette let people die by the dozens so she could not die. I dunno about you, but I have some trouble claiming the moral high-ground there. Maybe I am comparing petty theft to armed robbery, but I'm comparing petty theft for shits and giggles to armed robbery to avoid starvation.
But let's say it is different. Let's say Brigette's situation is more that of a major decision maker than that of the average citizen. Are you prepared to condemn the average tech CEO? Should we treat all of them as scum below the level of pedophiles? I mean, none of them get into the business to murder poor African kids, but by god they don't do much to stop it.
Are you prepared to condemn the average tech CEO?
>Yes. Slightly. Not as bad as Bridgette though, the situation isn't as comparable. I don't think they should go to bed and sleep like babies, however.
>Should we treat all of them as scum below the level of pedophiles?
No. Vintner was worse than a pedophile, not Bridgette.
> I mean, none of them get into the business to murder poor African kids, but by god they don't do much to stop it.
Some do. Members of society I mean. Just because you don't try to help doesn't mean others don't as well.
I feel a much more apt comparison would be that Bridgette is aware that the local coach of a little league team is molesting the kids and chooses not to report it.
> I feel a much more apt comparison would be that Bridgette is aware that the local coach of a little league team is molesting the kids and chooses not to report it.
Because if she does, they'll shoot her, and it's not really clear whether the authorities would actually do anything. Important details, anon.
> Some do. Members of society I mean. Just because you don't try to help doesn't mean others don't as well.
Wow, way to accuse me of not donating to charity and shit, like I don't literally have a receipt email from such a charity sitting in my inbox dated 13 minutes ago (actually that's a total coincidence; it was an automatic thing, set in motion literally years ago, but still my money being sent to help people in Africa). Absolutely, a lot of people do try and help. They don't do it by not participating in the system in the first place, though. They do it by participating in the system and then using their resources to try and make things better. Which, from what we know, sounds a lot like what Brigette was aiming to do with her whole divine language thing.
Having said that, I didn't set out to hassle you about your moral judgments (just to raise interesting questions), but I think that's what I ended up doing. My apologies for that. I figure I've said my piece, so I'll shut up for now.
>Because if she does, they'll shoot her, and it's not really clear whether the authorities would actually do anything. Important details, anon.
Woah, some of that shit is super arguable.
She could have walked away without being killed.
And the dungeon seems pretty important. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Saying the duchy of starfall wouldn't help/glenn seems weird, seeing as how incidentally, help is coming from outside the dungeon.
Not the anon who said he'd shut up.
>She could have walked away without being killed.
You do remember what Lora was going to do to her if we didn't forcibly ask her to stop right?
>And the dungeon seems pretty important. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Saying the duchy of starfall wouldn't help/glenn seems weird, seeing as how incidentally, help is coming from outside the dungeon.
No help is coming outside of the dungeon excluding Glenn's 'groceries and stuff'. The dungeon kind of is a vacuum to everyone outside of its immediate area. Hell the whole reason we're here is it's where they dump criminals.
>You do remember what Lora was going to do to her if we didn't forcibly ask her to stop right?
If you've changed your mind, I would be happy to invoke the exit clause, as soon as you turn over your research."
I believe this means she could get out alive.
>No help is coming outside of the dungeon excluding Glenn's 'groceries and stuff'. The dungeon kind of is a vacuum to everyone outside of its immediate area. Hell the whole reason we're here is it's where they dump criminals.
Adventurers go down there all the time. The Duchy of Starfall literally had a quest for Bri even when she got exiled. If Brigette went around recruiting help and explaining what was going on down there, I think she could have rounded up help.
remember that the cost of her leaving was her research and the chain.
as for the importance of the dungeon to the outside world, remember that the duchy of star fall uses it as a penal colony.
now if the moneychanger had got through with her plans, that would be a different story.
>remember that the cost of her leaving was her research and the chain.
The chain is bullshit evil anyway and the research she, theoretically, could have burned before being forced to "turn it over". I don't know how niggy and to the letter the clause is, but at the very least she could have left the dungeon behind and joined the good guys
>could have burned before being forced to "turn it over".
That would almost definitely lead to her being killed or worse. You think the guy who has minions enslaving and torturing people, would be fine with her just burning all her research and asking politely to leave?
I know this is metagaming, but remember that a halfling wizard with a team of assistants, a generic adventurer, and a priestess called by god are just three of the random individuals that would also have headed into the dungeon.
Inferring from this, I'm saying much more than penal colony prisoners go down in the dungeon.
>That would almost definitely lead to her being killed or worse. You think the guy who has minions enslaving and torturing people, would be fine with her just burning all her research and asking politely to leave
depends on the exit clause. Maybe she can't burn the research. Maybe she can't be killed if she decides to enact it, on penalty of death.
Victoria would have had to go through the Vintner and the Moneychanger, unless she could figure out a way to, I dunno, use the Roost or something. And THAT would require bypassing the Baron, then the murders of harpies.
Additionally, there are no laws in the Dungeon to uphold, outside of local ones, and the Master would, assuredly, have kept an eye on anyone leaving; if Victoria or Brigitte decided to go around saying 'shit's bad, send help', they'd be assassinated.
The chain is bullshit evil, yes. Does that mean she should have turned it over to another like the Baron? Someone who takes out his petty frustrations on Lora by gangraping her? She can't destroy it before she goes, and anyone else who the Master recruits will almost certainly be worse.
>Victoria would have had to go through the Vintner and the Moneychanger, unless she could figure out a way to, I dunno, use the Roost or something. And THAT would require bypassing the Baron, then the murders of harpies.
>Additionally, there are no laws in the Dungeon to uphold, outside of local ones, and the Master would, assuredly, have kept an eye on anyone leaving; if Victoria or Brigitte decided to go around saying 'shit's bad, send help', they'd be assassinated.
Victoria escaped through a secret entrance in the Atheneum.
>Does that mean she should have turned it over to another like the Baron? Someone who takes out his petty frustrations on Lora by gangraping her?
She should have turned it over and moved away from evil. I doubt she remained thinking 'i hope Bri shows up to easily beat me'
>She can't destroy it before she goes, and anyone else who the Master recruits will almost certainly be worse.
Probably, but once she leaves she can provide information to whoever's going in to help.
Also, remaining as part of an evil institution because "oh no, what if they bring in someone who's actually evil to do evil stuff" is a stupid line of reasoning.
If I was a member of a secret cabal of child molestors I wouldn't stay because "oh shit, if I leave, they'll bring in an actual child molestor! Gotta stay then." I'd leave because I'm not a fucking child molestor.
You guys want to know what's moral here? Aight let's break it down. First of all, this "punishment" isn't really anything against Vic. Bri has to serve her time and what she is suffering isn't even Just. She knew what she was doing was wrong and that there would be a price, and she isn't even suffering that. She had already received mercy, a suspension of justice. That it means Vic will die and she will be separated from her is incidental. Shitty, and unfair, but not malicious or even intentional. But hey life ain't fair and everyone gets separated.
Anyways. Since it's not malicious or intentional it means she doesn't have to just accept it and she can work towards living on with Brig or sharing her fate or helping redeem her.
Lora can always change the deal later.
You do realize they aren't all about the child molestation right? Because it all seems to come back to that with you. Why not just say a bunch of mass murdering psychopaths and call a spade a spade?
Also the whole appeal to an outside authority shtick, what if and just let me finish what if, there's no reasonable authority figure for them to go to? Bridgette leaves and is probably horrifically killed and lets someone who will use divine words of creation to rather less wholesome mean, in this case possible child molestation
>there's no reasonable authority figure for them to go to? Bridgette leaves and is probably horrifically killed and lets someone who will use divine words of creation to rather less wholesome mean
there is no evidence for any of this. No reasonable authority figure? Any government nearby who gives a shit about, at the very least, the moneychanger's bullshit scheme, would have some urge to clear this up. Horifically killed? The Master told her there was a fucking out she could take if she gave up her research. Which she rejected. Because she loves her research.
Why can't you accept that Brigette was so attracted to words she willingly let hundreds die for her own research? She's not a good person.
as the person who wrote
>I need you to leave. It's not safe for you here any more.
>Go to the Heritor, tell her of me. No lies, no bias. What good I have done, and what evil I have failed to prevent.
>I will prepare the defenses, but if she has the good sense to leave you alive, it will hardly stop them.
>I will be judged, one way or the other, and I can only pray that I will finish my research in time.
I feel the need to explain what I felt from what I knew about Bridgette at the time, to get some perspective on judging her actions now.
But this is going to take a while and I need to pull off my goddamn socks after rushing back home to get to my computer to type all this shit out. Y'all make this torturous for phone readers.
>Also, remaining as part of an evil institution because "oh no, what if they bring in someone who's actually evil to do evil stuff" is a stupid line of reasoning.
>If I was a member of a secret cabal of child molestors I wouldn't stay because "oh shit, if I leave, they'll bring in an actual child molestor! Gotta stay then." I'd leave because I'm not a fucking child molestor.
You seem to be missing the point that because she was 'on the inside' she was actively preventing them from doing things.
It's more akin to "oh shit, if I leave, they'll be able to molest children faster/more efficiently! Gotta stay then SO THEY CAN'T DO THAT."
>You seem to be missing the point that because she was 'on the inside' she was actively preventing them from doing things.
She didn't prevent them from doing shit.
>It's more akin to "oh shit, if I leave, they'll be able to molest children faster/more efficiently! Gotta stay then SO THEY CAN'T DO THAT."
Or leave and actually work to prevent them from doing it ever again rather than sit there while apparently NO HOPE FROM ANYBODY OR ANY AUTHORITY FIGURE EVER (which would imply that if anything good was going to happen, Brigette was going to need to do it herself)
Either Brigette was sitting on her ass waiting for an authority figure like Bri + Friends to show up rather than contact them and help them
She didn't think anyone was going to help and resolved to let the Master and friends torture and kill hundreds
Holy shit, I wonder why I didn't just fucking look back here.
From Brigette's own goddamn mouth:
"...But what's a little more blood on your hands? You're already guilty. You're already complicit in the crimes of the others; you turned your blind eye and made your token arguments, and in the end they spread their suffering until someone else did what you wouldn't." -Brigette on her own judgment.
There's no greater fucking good here. She was a coward.
And the funny thing is. Everyone in this thread (before we found out she was a hot chick, hilariously enough) seemed to fucking agree with me. Just to quote some of you motherfuckers.
"he shouldn'ta done what he did. He deserves it, he knows it, he could have NOT done it, but no. He didn't do what was right, or what was needful. He's done what he's wanted and now it's time to pay the piper. I feel more sorry for her. I mean, he sounds like even HE doesn't have an excuse." -Anon on the Poet.
"It's necessary. He's done terrible things; they all have. Balance and Justice need to be restored in the Dungeon, which means putting the Chain-Wielders and all they've built to the torch.
Suddenly I feel like Brianna could be classed as a Necromancer-Paladin." -Anon on the Poet
"Death shall have her due." -Anon on the Poet
"His death will be his redemption." -Anon on the Poet
"Apathy levels critical: Terminating argument subroutines. Death unopposed." -Anon on the Poet
You're either giving Brigette the fucking pussy pass or none of y'all bitches have conviction with your beliefs. There was like, one anon who was pro-Brigette in that fucking thread. Shit.
On a kneejerk reaction, the "right" thing to do at that moment is to obviously give up, but it was quiet clear that anyone intending to do the "right" thing wouldn't be in that situation. That is, whatever this research was about, The Poet deemed it more important than the immediate lives being lost, nor could The Poet afford to give it as is to The Master. I already suspected that the research wouldn't solve all the problems even had The Poet finished it, but working with that assumption would not be IC.
If it's in terms of the absolute "right" course of action, as soon as The Heritor was declared Things should have been Done. Maybe even as late as after Vintner died to allow some error for communication time and trust in the status quo, but the point is that while research should not have stopped, neither should The Poet have believed that it would be finished.
I'm not saying outright rebellion would be the best option. Dying uselessly is even worse about avoiding responsibility than trying to complete the research. Rather, things could be set up to help the Heritor right all the wrongs. Collect info on each of the floors(by way of interviewing people from each floor, as "experiments" due to the way the Dungeon has an identity as a whole), create a clause that transfers or establishes new contracts for all the demons to help the Heritor in the event of The Poet's loss(emphasis on loss, not death). And etc.
If The Poet wins, then The Heritor was a scrub and wouldn't have saved the Dungeon.
As for protecting the research, it would be better to collate everything into a small concealable package, or maybe even just with Victoria, and either hide it or entrust it with The Heritor. Because the angel might not want the research done, but the Heritor was a person, someone who could have other opinions.
The major, major problem was that The Poet had no guarantee that The Heritor would be in any way merciful.
>She didn't prevent them from doing shit.
If you got a team of 12 with fit members and a team of 12 with one of em a lame duck, the lame duck team is short a member just by it being there. That ain't much but it is denying them a spot for a 'competent' person.
>Either Brigette was sitting on her ass waiting for an authority figure like Bri + Friends to show up rather than contact them and help them
I'd say hoping rather than waiting but otherwise no argument.
>She didn't think anyone was going to help and resolved to let the Master and friends torture and kill hundreds
She didn't like what they were doing and was trying to solve the problem by finishing her research in order to help those people in ways only that language could offer.
It's not the necessarily the best solution but its the one that she came up with and was running with.
Vintner and Moneychanger were dead, but then they deserved it. So The Heritor COULD show mercy, but you couldn't be SURE about it.
And that's not something to easily risk your beloved Victoria on, the decency of some random person out to kill you is a bit of a stretch. So really, I was okay with it not being chosen.
but as >>44935642 points out, it is still clear enough that The Poet refused to face very many things as they were. Continuing research was the cowardice.
Now for how I feel after knowing The Poet's circumstances.
Sorry, actually. let me amend my post there.
>seemed to fucking agree with me
Actually, most of the anons I'm quoting are pro letting Lora kill the Poet, something which I'm actually not for. I just think that the sentence brigette has received is slightly better than what she deserves. Life imprisonment, 20 years, execution or something around that would be more around what I would prefer. There is a pain to being forced to outlive your beloved, but that feels more like a punishment rather than justice being enforced.
with regards to >>44934624:
a) she's a demon
b) Bridgette has absolutely no sway outside the dungeon. She was a damn washout.
In general, I would say that Bridgette had good intentions, but had several flaws that prevented those intentions from really helping people. She lacked the experience and perspective to know what to do, and having those would have made it much less challenging to do the Right Thing, but we can't expect her to have those things. People aren't born with them.
I would say that her current punishment is rather severe, but:
a) As the victim, Lora is allowed some flexibility on the choice of punishment
b) As the authority in other matters, Lora has had to make accomodations for Bri already. As Bri, we wouldn't really have the right to ask for leniency.
c) Victoria seriously should've gotten some punishment too, but she didn't. Let Bridgette pick up the slack.
and d) Bridgette still believes that learning the language of the gods was the right thing to do, and as a Death Choir, that's seriously not something Lora can let slide. It's probably important to not only get Bridgette to give up on that, but to change her opinion on the very idea of it.
And here's from Bri's perspective.
On describing Victoria: "You look back and see a young woman, pretty in a bookish way, with round glasses and a scar across the entirety of her throat."
You think Bri would mention she was a demon.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Isoldt?
You really think Brigitte could make herself believed by ANYONE who hasn't seen the shit that's gone down here?
Remember, here we have an academic who vanished for mysterious purposes years ago coming back with a tale of a chained angel and a woman trying to dig up a godslaying spear, after she's been in the Dungeon for years. Whereas whoever the Master is, he's rich and respectable enough to troll universities for graduates, and as such has influence.
A, that was before we got the context. Stop being a dick and saying we're cowards who can't hold to our convictions because circumstances altered.
>"Apathy levels critical: Terminating argument subroutines. Death unopposed." -Anon on the Poet
That was me, saying "Fuck it. I'm not up to arguing this shit. You want to kill her, that's on your head and Bri's.", after I said this:
>"Possibly. He was looking for a way out, though - and we already have shown we're willing to redeem people. Maybe, if he gives up his Chain, and pledges to work for the good of the Dungeon, this one needn't die.
>Though we should still be willing to kill if we must, of course."
And got three different people coming back within as many minutes saying 'No fuck off she's dying'.
So then you're still saying that, other than you, the lone anon for not killing brigette, most people wanted to kill brigette. Cool, and the circumstances have not been altered in any way.
There are people we call accessories to crime. Brigette herself admits she was a fucking accessory to the crimes of the others. She said she "turned a blind eye". She did not say "oh no, I'm so afraid to leave the master will kill me I can't do anything to help because no one will believe me." She knows she could have done something different and she chose to let people die so she could pursue the research she was so passionate about. Case fucking closed.
Most people at the time, before we learned everything. And I know the definition of 'accessory to a crime'. But, y'know, as before, fuck it. I'm not going to argue when you're going to plug your ears to any counterargument and refuse to listen. Do let me know if you're at least willing to consider counterarguments in the future.
I don't recall. But given that Isoldt was going to be bound to serve a Rose Cult chapter in chastity for literally a thousand years and is bound to the next SEVEN generations of smiths without it being a notable chunk of her life? Yeah, they're immortal or pretty damn close; if nothing else, it wouldn't be an immediately pressing concern if she were one.
I'm not plugging my ears. Listen to Brigette's word choice.
"they spread their suffering until someone else did what you wouldn't."
Brigette says WOULDN'T.
She does not say COULDN'T.
For all your conjecture on why Brigette COULDN'T have done anything else, Brigette herself disagrees. She could have done something else, she just WOULDN'T.
>they met at school
ahh...damn. I forgot about that.
I will amend my first point.
a) Bridgette has absolutely no sway outside the dungeon. She was a damn washout.
b) Victoria's in the same boat
c) I'm pretty sure Scribbles was already doing it, in her own way.
Although now I'm MORE confused. The Master invited Bridgette, and Victoria kinda just....tagged along?
Brigitte is suicidally depressed. I dunno about you, but I'm not in the habit of believing what people who are in that state say about their worth. It tends to end badly.
I dare you to get up off your computer sell your belongings and give all your money and food to starving kids in Africa.
If you say no is it because you
or because you
Don't you fuckers pull this shit.
We're talking about watching mass murdering psycopaths chop up and kill people RIGHT FUCKING NEXT TO YOU, raping a fucking death angel RIGHT NEXT TO YOU, torturing and enslaving RIGHT NEXT TO YOU
Fuck off with your shitty comparisons to starving african children or your depression bullshit.
Crimes were occuring right under this woman's nose and she knows she could have done something to help. It was her goddamn moral obligation as a human being to step up for these people and she let them suffer.
And I'm saying your evidence for that is shit, at least in places. The fact that you're going for a hardline NO MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY stance is not making me particularly inclined to actually try to argue your conclusions.
Ok that would be "WOULDN'T"
>RIGHT NEXT TO YOU
Ok then, when was the last time you adopted an orphan in your town. When have you donated food to the homeless dude outside that restaurant you went to. When did you clean the graffiti off that wall you walk by.
If you pass by it doing nothing then by your own definition you are an accomplice to their misfortune and crimes.
>NO MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY
What way? I'm saying Brigette is a bad person, acting morally repugnant and while I don't know if there are "laws" that apply in the . I haven't even voted yet. Although, here it is.
>Honestly, after the shit I've seen? You got off light.
It ain't gonna win though.
>Ok then, when was the last time you adopted an orphan in your town. When have you donated food to the homeless dude outside that restaurant you went to. When did you clean the graffiti off that wall you walk by.
Oh, yesterday. I named the Orphan Timmy :)
Nah, but seriously. I'm going to sleep. I keep my neighborhood as clean and crime free as I can possibly manage. If you notice me letting someone get raped without trying my damnedest to stop it, just hit me up.
lurk moar newfag
I am indeed new, yes. This is well known.
And I was referring to the way you're phrasing your arguments. A lot of things about it, especially rhetorical flourishes like 'case closed' above make you come across as unwilling to even consider the opposing side's viewpoint, which makes arguing not just tedious and frustrating but completely pointless.
>I keep my neighborhood as clean and crime free as I can possibly manage.
I doubt it cuz people are lazy but I'll not argue it.
>If you notice me letting someone get raped without trying my damnedest to stop it, just hit me up.
I'll give it to you cuz that stuff just aint right.
>lurk moar newfag
This doesn't help you in any way shape or form.
>Nah, but seriously. I'm going to sleep.
I'm at that point as well right now.
Skub is meaningless. It comes from a comic that shows two groups of people wearing pro-skub and anti-skub t-shirts and engaging in furious battle on sight. Skub is shown as a nondescript can of something.
It symbolizes shitstorming over unimportant shit like what we had here.
And here I thought 4chan only got weeaboo from PBF.
At first. Eventually the wordfilter got dropped, but people just kept using weeaboo.
And since this was back when 4chan started to have a cultural impact on the internet, it spread around a bit.
Word filters are fun to use, I have a whole series of them for space station 13, including one that fucks up everyones tenses and drives grammar nazis off the wall. As well as the well known pirate one and I was working on a chivalrous one.
To all the guys who say Brigette should just have left:
As far as I understood, Brigette was magically bound by the Master so that she couldn't leave without dieing, or so that her research would have fallen to him when she tried.
Yes, she didn't stop the other chainholders' activities, but she didn't torture anybody herself. She continued her research because in doing so she saw the only way out, in the form of a big "UNDO" in angelic speech. If successful, all the crimes would have been undone (or so she believed, I guess the Master would have taken the work before that point)
I want word of lich
>If successful, all the crimes would have been undone
Personally, I don't have strong feelings either way on the issue at hand.
A lot of what's been said is sheer opinion, and while you certainly have at least as much right to voice yours here as anyone, I don't think it's going to make a great deal of difference to the argument itself.
There are some things related to the argument that could use clarification, however—such as Brigette's initial motivation, how much of the truth she knew before committing, the degree to which it was "stick with us or die really really horribly (or suffer an even worse fate)" once she found out the truth, whether there *was* anything resembling a Higher Authority (earthly or otherwise) she could have reported the misdeeds to, and whether she truly believed that she could actually fix what had been broken by the chain-holders if she managed to finish her research, or was just telling herself that in a vain attempt to convince herself that she might not be damned.
So if you consider some or all of these points of plot-tangent-material to be things you can safely reveal, that would certainly be interesting to hear.
Brigette is not necessarily a reliable narrator; as someone mentioned above, she had reached the point of desperation and suicidal depression by the time you got into her head.
That in mind, consider for a moment how this started for her. The dangerous sorceress Brianna met was not the woman who entered the Dungeon; she was a student, fierce maybe, but sheltered. When she got involved, several of the other Chain-Bearers were not yet present; she was tasked with doing something in one section of the Dungeon and avoiding detection, which she did.
Brigette's research into the Divine Tongue eventually lead to the Master's proposal of binding Lora. This didn't seem bad at first, but with Lora shackled (if not yet controlled), things began their downward slide. Brigette, still wide-eyed and young, was afraid. When the Master brought on scum like Lisa and the mercenaries, she'd realized she was in deep but couldn't see a way out.
She kept her mouth shut, thinking she'd have an opportunity later. But that opportunity never came. The bindings tightened, the deal was struck that held the Bearers together, and all of a sudden Brigette was expected to prosecute an assault on the Atheneum and establish control.
When Bri's conflict with her began, Brigette had been intending on doing, well...nothing. No traps, no guards. She was drinking her days away, waiting for death to be her way out. That's when you got her perspective, and Richard played on her insecurities and guilt to force her to fight.
Whether or not Brigette could really use the Divine Tongue to do more good than the harm she'd unleashed is, perhaps, irrelevant except insofar as she knew she'd been party to something awful and wanted to make it right. Her defeat made her look at her justifications for the acts of desperation they were, and she hates herself for it.
Brigette did powerful wrong but her slide to villainy was just that - a slide.
I'm actually pretty interested in hearing you weigh in. This is a complex moral issue, where there isn't really a 'correct' answer. It's opinion.
You have some more insight into the past, know just how bound by the contract the Poet was, and how far along into the mess she was before she realized just what she had done. On top of that, you know just how much havoc the other Chain Holders could've wreaked with the divine language.
In short, the Brigette who entered the Dungeon was an innocent. She wasn't ready to deal with any of this and when things started going bad, she acted out of fear. The person she's become knows better and could have done better...but she wasn't that person yet.
About what I expected.
Manipulated and twisted by the Master. She certainly deserves to be punished, but I think just living with the consequences of her actions and serving Lora for the rest of however long she gets to live sounds good enough. I don't really see a need to twist the knife.
We can suggest that Victoria get 'locked' in with her, but I think that's about the limit of what we can do. I'm not entirely sure Lora can repeal her decree, after all.
Yeah, I hadn't been aware that Bridgette was rendered immortal.
This is reaching into "infinite punishment for finite crime" territory if Lora plans to keep Bridge alive forever under constant reminders of her crime.
Brigette's confinement is also preventative in nature. Within the Dungeon she can't share her research; permitted to die and pass on, she might reveal her secrets to the living - or the dead. The only other alternative to that is getting her soul re-forged which is, functionally, oblivion. That may be an avenue she wants to pursue later, which she can discuss with Lora at that time - or you can.
Ah. Hadn't thought about death letting her out. Damn, that sucks.
Knowing that, if we did want to argue this with Lora, we'd probably need to go the angle of "you're punishing an innocent (ie Victoria) in your punishment of Bridgette", which'd probably be a rather weak argument that hinged on whether Lora views Vicky as an innocent. Though if she refuses that one then we could say that if Vicky is guilty like Bridge, she should share the punishment.
I'm not arguing in favour of that, just throwing out a potential path.
Honestly at this point I'm thinking the only realistic way of solving this issue is have Victoria straight up ask Lora for the same punishment and then work with Bridgette on the research for eternity.
And on a related note I wanted to ask Vox if praying does actually communicate with Lora as was mentioned in another tread.
It's certainly thought to. You can always ask Lora.
Writing now I promise. My morning was shockingly busy after I turned my car in and I've gotta go to work in an hour. And then the discussion was all fascinating and...
I'm sorry. I got distracted.
Then I'd like to pre-emptively vote to do so in the event I'm not present next time we see her or I forget.
One last question though, are we able to bring people with us when we dream meet Lora? We brought auntie with us but I think that was more of a summons inside the room than bringing her with us into it. I'm just kinda curious if we could like fall asleep with Amy or somebody and then we'd both meet her or something.
You give Victoria a steady look; not hard, but not sympathetic.
"Yeah," you murmur. "I suppose it is. But that's also not the topic at hand. I need to know how much Scribbles is /supposed/ to know."
"Brigette asked," Victoria admits. "The answer she got back was 'permit the Heritor to decide'. Lora can seal the histories she writes so that ordinary mortals can't read them, if you want to tell her the whole truth but maybe not tell the world. Or you can let her write whatever she likes. Or you can lie. Either way, Lora feels it's your business."
"And I can trust that?" you say skeptically.
Victoria shrugs. "You can always fob the lamia off for a bit until you can consult with the angel yourself." She sighs and quietly pulls a dagger from her boot sheath; she toys quietly with it, more to occupy her hands than anything else. "I don't ask you for your sympathy, Brianna," she murmurs. "I...I suspect that you, too, will out-live me. At the very least, your line, and your heirs, will do so. Can I ask you to look after Brigette? She has Lora and the Caretaker for company, and the old lich has been very understanding, but..." she sighs. "Without real living company I doubt she'll last with her sanity. And the staff of the Atheneum will not be kind to her. Please. You fought to save her. Don't leave her to rot."
You suck a quiet drag on your cigarette.
> Say you'll talk to Lora first
Alright folks, I'm not gonna have the time needed to update. I will do so when I get home tonight.
Unless a strong sentiment is expressed to the contrary, Bri is going to lean on the side of telling Scribbles nothing about Lora and the situation until she can talk to the angel herself.
As always, discussion, questions, comments, and critique are welcome and appreciated.
Thank you all for reading and participating!
a bit of mercy now can mean a useful ally for our descendants for generations. She's locked in one of the greatest libraries in existence, I lay very good odds she'll pass away at least a few decades doing research, she could be quite a useful friend for a family line to have.
Eh guys, that's the stuff for waaaay pastgame.
La Croix already have a habit of being friends with eternals. Just because she's yet living won't be much of a difference.
Did we ever decide on what Bri's hobby is? Shankbird has whittling and what about Nathan, what does he do when not brooding? I propose Bri plays poker, maybe even a little tarot reading.
We know for sure she tells stories, and she writes in her journal.
Also recall her talk with River before she became a la Croix.
She probably thinks up and writes stories of her own. It'd make a lot of sense.
I actually really like the idea that after all of the events in the Dungeon she just writes her autobiography.
Or even setting up a school about the La Croix method of necromancy. Get the Caretaker to be the greatest substitute teacher the world has ever seen
I think Bri would probably start writing her stories down, too. It'd end up being this big, fat analogue to the Grim Brothers Fairytales. She's a huge fan of the oral tradition, and hearing her tell a story in person would be downright supernatural.
But given how she grew up on story books and valiant knights, she'd love to try to make her own version too.
I doubt she think of herself as important enough for autobiography, but she'd definitely want to start working on a record of the La Croix or something, if she could.
yeah, I expected as much. Whether someone like that deserves punishment is a different topic entirely.
> I'd rather re-negotiate the terms later. A compromise, where Bridgette uses the knowledge she HAS gained to benefit the Dungeon, to prove that she was not entirely wrong. From there, it'll be up to Lora whether to keep the knowledge secret.
>If she lacks the will and self-confidence to even manage that...
Gah, system things my answer is spam, no indication of why except "Please reformat and try again." So if this post's formatting ends up a complete mess by the time I hit post and it goes through, that's why.
Huh? Neither. In fact, this thread is the first thing I've ever actually followed on (four chan). Checked out the link because I know your work from DSP, and stayed around because it's a good story. A week ago, I wasn't even keeping up enough to do much voting on time, because I.R.L. was going completely haywire.
Ah, that part was directed at you. Ok, that makes more sense. Didn't notice the name, so many are "anonymous", I don't even usually pay them any attention except to scan for Vox to find updates.
FINALLY I catch the quest. 2 days reading nearly all day to be here.
This is the best or second best quest that I've read.
I don't know why but I want the Lamia as our 4t party member. Every great adventure needs someone to record it all and she is cute
I'd rather a guy, to balance out the gender ratios we've seen so far. Not too keen on harpy guy.
Judging from what other anons have been saying about getting necro-mechs up and running, I'm thinking someone along the lines of....
Welcome to the quest, Excited Junkie Anon. 'm glad to have you here, and hope you do in fact live long enough to tell me what you're not afraid to do.
Welcome to you as well! I'll warn you - Scribbles is in part inspired by Polk the Teamster. If you know who that is, great.
If you don't, well. Hold on tight.
Yeah, this isn't happening tonight. I am deeply sorry anon; I'll post a new thread when I can and continue from there.
I may have to make arrangements for my 'net, which... Yeah. I already skip meals. I can't afford much more.
I'll do my best to keep you posted.
I'll get my trebuche.
Vox, we appreciate your story telling ability and do not want you to die. Or disappear because Comcast is the biggest piece of shit this side of literally anything that has a side.
Patreon is a wonderful thing, my friend.
And you can do it somewhat more "legitimately" than most other QMs, considering you do things other than QMing.
Lord knows people who've done much less have demanded far more.
>officially, giving money gives you stuff for the webcomic/legit stuff
>really, you pay money to keep seeing DLQ
Say what you want about monetization, it takes some serious dedication to run every fucking day, and it is totally reasonable to request money for that.
It kind of makes sense, sometimes being payed to do something you enjoy can take the fun out. some people start worrying too much about how well they do it, and maintaining that standard that they stop enjoying it.
which is why you fall back on the "official" part. If they feel that they aren't "giving" as much as they've been "earning", pump out some more stuff for the webcomic/others, which is ACTUAL work that you should be doing anyway.
Work is ideally fun, but it has that general acceptance that you're doing it to earn money.