>>44852734 Loyalty is only worth as much as who you're loyal too. A poor leader deserves no loyalty, a good one deserves your life. Loyalty as a concept was created so people wouldn't desert someone who could make a difference for someone with deeper pockets or bigger sticks.
>>44852677 He hasn't been a big money actor for very long. Give him a little bit.
>>44852712 It's not /pol/ to say he's not really an attractive man. He just doesn't look good, has nothing to do with his skin color. There are plenty of attractive black people, he is not even close. Fuck of Boyega worshipers.
>>44852754 The first order was clearly the better leader. No matter how over the top evil the movie tried to make them, when you get right down to it the Republic must be cartoonishly week that a group of Empire fan boys could completely fuck them over. It's one of the many reasons the movie is so fucking dumb, they had to make a new super weapon just it so the First Order doesn't look like a bunch of badass underdogs fucking over an ineffectual government.
>>44852801 Both sides were morons, but the movie is stupid for other reasons.
The way they built their super weapon and the falcon scene mean that the previous rules for hyperdrives in star wars are gone, like the rules for the teleporter in star wars. Dead franchise or retconned to stupidity is a go.
>>44852896 I said it was only one of the reasons. Yeah both groups are morons in the movie, but the First Order had to have some competency simply to have amassed such power. They were some how able to create a super powerful army to rival the republic in such a short time. which either means the republic can't defend itself or it's people, which means it's a shitty republic, or that millions of people and several planets willing joined the First Order. >>44852912 I guess they probably will do something like that, TR8R was so popular they'll try to milk him as much as possible while missing the reason why everyone liked him so much.
>>44852967 Or the first Order is a regional government and the Republic doesn't want to start another galactic civil war, hence they are using the resistance in the western reaches to oppose the First Order.
>>44852896 The Millennium Falcon has always had a highly-modified hyperdrive with the safety features disabled. This meant that the Falcon could jump near a gravity well, but also meant that even the slightest miscalculation would cause absolutely devastating effects (usually in the form of destroying a planet) as a space ship hits it at above light speed. The fact that his safety features were disabled is what allowed him to shorten the Kessel Run in the first place, because he could jump closer to gravity wells than other people could.
TL;DR the Falcon has always been an exception to the "no hyperspeed near planets" rule.
>>44853007 Even if it's a regional goverment it still must have started somewhere, which again brings back that they either took over a bunch of shit through force of winning the people over, which again means that the republic is either weak or plain hated by the people. >>44853027 What's the point of a Death star if you can just fire ships at planets to destory them then?
>>44853089 So why is the republic not stopping them? It should be pretty easy to have stopped this. You keep missing the point, there is no way the First Order could have grown so big if the Republic was even slightly able to do their jobs. I can't just start stealing babies in America to make an army capable of not only matching but exceeding the American army.
>>44853055 >Good thing was that this movie made just about everyone I game with give up on Abrams. >mfw my friends are finally starting to have their hype wear off "it's not the prequels" can only take a movie so far
>>44853128 >Why is America not stopping them. >There is no way for North Korea to have gotten so big if America was even slightly able to do their jobs.
The only really stupid thing I see the Republic doing is having all their fleet in one place. It's like if the Japanese nuked Pearl Harbour and the entire American fleet was there.
The Resistance had 40 odd ships, and the First Order deployed the vast majority of theirs it seemed, so I imagine up until firing Starkiller base they had been pretty limited as a threat to the Republic.
>>44853089 Did they literally say they stole them? Could be they were given the babies. >>44853060 The Galaxy is a huge place, people in that section of the galaxy were either loyal to the old empire or just didn't like how unsnazzy the republic was, that combined with Snoke-fuckery gave rise to the first order
>>44853132 How can anyone be this man's fan? Everything he has ever done was a disappointment, Lost, Star Trek, Star Wars, his life. >>44853158 What does that have to do with my point that the Republic can't do shit? Also they didn't reset the prequel movies where the Republic makes a slave clone army or that the Jedi take children and indoctrinate them into a cult, all things stated in the movie. >>44853173 North Korea isn't beating us in any battles anytime soon.
What are you talking about? Did you see their army of tens of thousands of Storm Troopers, just on one of the bases? They are clearly a threat, otherwise they would be underdogs, which is not going to happen because the "good guys" will always have to be the underdogs.
>>44853191 Huh, I always thought he said "I was taken from my family" which could be like how the Jedi used to take little kids. How would he remember if he was taken from his family anyway? His picture looked like he was a baby when they got him.
>>44853240 Well, the Jedi never touched on the morality of enslaving clones grown specifically to fight the war. Darth Maul died in the first film Kid Anikin Sheev used a lightsaber The ideas behind the prequels were good but the execution fucked it up comedic battle droids etc etc
>>44853260 They parked all of their ships in one system because to that point, no one ever imagined a mobile "fuck your shit" weapon that could destroy a systems' worth of planets from halfway across the galaxy. >>44853309 So did they only have one star destroyer?
>>44853240 Terrible acting, compounded by full greensets. You know that picture of Gandalf? Like that. "GREY AND GREY MORALITY" The pacing and plot were terrible. You know how MGS is NANOMACHINES now? That's what they did. Way too much explaining of the Force that didn't need to happen and doesn't benefit anyone. Darth Vader is the Sith lord of love.
>>44853363 I would doubt it, logically. If they had resource for Starkiller they would probably have spent a bit of actually more effective weapons. >>44853260 Also I forgot to say, yes the Resistance were the underdogs, yes the Republic mostly ignored the First Order, but this isn't due to logic, this is due to the fact that otherwise the movie wouldn't fit the ideas we like, we like stories where the good guys are the underdogs, so the entire movie was about reinforcing that notion, and because they forced the illigocal notion, the only thing that could make it semi-logical was that the republic sucked. It's not my fault the entire plot relies on stupid logic to work at all, and it barely does that still. Sorry your favorite lazer sword fighting movie might not be perfect.
>>44853085 It isn't. Its noted that a single star destroyer is perfectly capable of glassing a planet on its own, the main point of the death death is intimidation. Just be so big and scary that no one will want to fight it, which makes the starkiller extra dumb. Tarkin doctrine had already proven itself to be a miserable, backfiring failure, so who the heck thought building another goddamn Tarkinball was a good idea?
>>44853472 I was saying maybe the Death Star is somehow more efficient than throwing ships at planets at above light speed, not that the Death Star is at all more efficient than a Star Destroyer, which itself is noted at least in the D6 Starwars books to be borderline impractical in how much resources go into its construction.
>>44853380 >>44853450 >original trilogy >understanding scale Lets presume those troopers are stationed on the surface layer of the station. DS is 120km in diameter, that gives us 45 thousand km surface. It's one stormtrooper per two square kilometers.
Hell even if they are concentrated on that equator ring, that still has 66 guys on a kilometer, spread around it's depth.
>>44853472 To be fair, they thought the good part was "Hey, now we don't have to move our goddamn Tarkinball into the system to fire it, just park it next to a star that no one will miss (or fuck them if they do miss it) and fire away, no one will be able to get through our shields at sub light speed and the safety features prevent ships from entering atmospheres at light speed. We should be good :^)"
>>44853524 The real practicalty of the deathstar is that it's meant to inspire fear, they even say it in the movies, it's not meant to be used, it's meant to keep the politicians inline once the senate was debanded.
>>44853524 >maybe the Death Star is somehow more efficient than throwing ships at planets at above light speed I don't know about that. I mean, you could make a lot of stupid dinky freighters for the cost of one death star.
>>44853560 There's going to be more regular garrison troops/technicians than elite assault corps, really.
Also the Death star's probably got a lot of dead space to fit all the power for the super laser.
>>44853729 Simply so that the seen in Han leaving his big ship wasn't completly random, and so there was a reason for Finn and Han to go on the planet, otherwise it would just be Finn who would want to go there so he could save Rey
>>44853607 Hyperdrives don't work like that. The Falcon dropped out of hyper in air without exploding into a gigantic fireball and when you are dealing with any significant percentage of light speed the difference between hitting thin air and a rock is academic at best.
So coming out of hyper-drive you -don't- have very much energy with you.
>>44853524 >the Death Star is somehow more efficient than throwing ships at planets at above light speed
The problem with science fantasy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love several of the movies and even some of the books. The lore is fun. But it doesn't even work on a speculative level, as the greatest fantasy does: there are too many places where multiple parts of the canon are inconsistent with each other (much less real physics) making it impossible to actually make predictions about the story and the world without just ignoring or dropping some parts.
Though they do say "hyperspace" as part of their explanation, so we can actually assume that the ships have normal velocity, but are moving through a section of hyperspace (which somehow receives visual information from realspace) from which normal space appears to have a negative curvature: if 3D space is imagined as the surface of a sphere, they travel through the interior, taking short cuts, meaning the actual real momentum of the ships may not be very high at all.
>>44853706 >Hell. Even the actual Tarkinball can save a shitload of money by having a standard hangar with ships rather than complicated super laser if they want to compensate Palpatine's ball size so hard.
So, planet-destroying railgun rather than planet-destroying laser?
>>44852662 >Abrams wants to make Phasma the new Bobba Fett >silver armor, ranking authority, air of badassery >after getting caught, betrays first order, responsible for the destruction of death star 2.0 and the death of millions of soldiers >gets thrown in the trash literally
>We get a rank and file stormtrooper with only one line >Shock-baton for a weapon >Managed to beat the shit out of Finn so bad, he regrets ever leaving the first order >becomes internet memetic badass just like Bobba Fett
Remind me again why feminists were praising Phasma?
>>44853832 Oh Jesus Christ that is getting saved. >>44853840 Honestly the hyperspace thing is so much better than the fuck up that was Star Trek's super teleporter and magic healing potion. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the shit in the new movie, but the hyperspace thing was ignore-able and lore does make it logical with the way hyperspace works.
Abrams forced Phasma way too hard. I can't wait till they suck out the life of TR8R by doing the same shit. They already made it so that he was in the same squad as Finn, I hope he comes back and joins the good guys so that one of the only two good characters in the film are ruined.
>>44853867 >The "Galaxy Gun"? Aright lets see what the wiki says >7,250 meters long Jegus
>Each of these projectiles were capable of traveling through hyperspace with a speed equivalent to at least a Class .75 hyperdrive, allowing for quick traversal of interstellar distances and difficulty in detecting them until they struck. Upon exiting hyperspace and homing in on its target, the projectile's automated defenses would activate to deter enemy forces. Automated laser cannon turrets exchanged laser fire with warships while thick armor plating and powerful energy shields deflected even the most advanced ion cannons and turbolasers. Not quite. It's just a torpedo with it's own point defences. Bomb being Exterminatus warhead itself is it's own shtick, not a function of hyperspeed.
>>44853885 Hmm >The key to its near invincibility was layered Quantum-crystalline armor, blahblah during the skirmish in the Maw, it even survived a glancing blow from the Death Star Prototype's Superlaser, which likely would have destroyed any other ship it touched That's some serious wankery on that hull.
Also the torpedo is light speed without hyperspace, which is massively impressive by itself, but the writers then proceed to forget just how fucking batshit amount of energy that is and have it blow stars up via quantum bull.
>>44853027 >but also meant that even the slightest miscalculation would cause absolutely devastating effects (usually in the form of destroying a planet >>44853060 >What's the point of a Death star if you can just fire ships at planets to destory them then? Actually, hyperspacing into Gravity Wells does NOTHING to the thing generating the Gravity. So you just splat your space ships and no one even notices.
>>44853128 >So why is the republic not stopping them? There out on the edge of the galaxy, in territory barely known to coreward civilization!
>>44853173 >The only really stupid thing I see the Republic doing is having all their fleet in one place. Yeah, that WAS stupid, but the Republic was trying to demilitarize after the Empires "We'll park a Star Destroyer in your orbit to keep you in line" fascism.
And whose to say that was their ENTIRE fleet? Maybe that was just the Republic's Standing Defense Fleet, with everything else moth-balled or running sector patrol.
>>44853383 >Why is it a meme now? Was his name just never revealed before this movie? We got it some time around last year in the novel Tarkin, and the ridiculousness of it made too much sense for why the Emperor never let anyone address him by his first name.
>>44853912 If there's ANY justice at all. ANY justice, its that TR-8R survives the wookie bowcaster to the back and when given the option, uses his shock-baton on Phasma for her greatest DISLOYALTY before turning his sights next on Finn.
>>44853962 >I can't wait till they suck out the life of TR8R by doing the same shit. They already made it so that he was in the same squad as Finn, I hope he comes back and joins the good guys so that one of the only two good characters in the film are ruined. >>44853984 >He's canon dead. Ah, but while Nines (FN-2199) is dead, Zeros (FN-2000) is still alive, and he was the squads best melee guy.
>>44853027 Single ships hitting planets to blow them up like that completely negates the entire point of the super weapons. You can't take the super weapons seriously when some dude with a ship and a droid could remove the safety features and program the droid to ram a planet. Now destroying the ship while making a minor inconvenience for the planet would work fine.
Goddamit, why couldn't they find the time to slip in some of this backstory? Trim some of those long pauses that let the viewers notice their references to the mythology of Star Wars, or a couple of the less functional jokes, and actually make a film that establishes the setting without relying on extra materials.
It's almost as bad as Avatar, where all the good story elements and explanations were cut out.
>>44854057 I could see that working. >Back during training they were best friends and sort of rivals in the academy >Had a gay relationship built on helping the other get through things >When Finn went rogue, TR-8R took it very personally >Not just because Finn left, but because Finn didn't come to him for help like they always did when the other was in trouble >Instead, Finn runs off with a bunch of Resistance terrorists than come to his best friend.
And then Han Solo killed the guy casually as he did anyone else.
>>44854468 There has to be others, and now I just had a terrible thought, what if it's Mace Windu's grandchild or some shit after somehow surviving and going into hiding? >>44854475 I'm not the only one that thought of it it seems.
>>44854530 It's a joke mostly, but knowing Star Wars... >Main Sith guy is related to main sith guy from before >Main Jedi is going to be related to main jedi from before >Black guy who doesn't really do anything and betrays people is related to black guy who didn't do anything and betrayed people Isn't too crazy knowing how lazy and cashgrabby this whole trillogy (plus 6 other movies) is.
>>44854633 >Finn using Vapaad >Starts slaughtering stormtroopers left and right >Suddenly he faces off against what looks like General Grievous >The droid shouts Traitor! and suddenly its multi-wielding 6 shock-batons in its chasis
Palapatine and Vader snuffed it, so there's a massive power vacuum happening which results in several violent power grabs and several coups.
Since the EU is non-canon, Grand Moff Thrawn isn't around to unify the Empire fast enough before the Republic could destroy a big chunk of their military using the snowballing support and momentum they got after destroying the first death star.
>>44854709 >>44854731 That's a damn shame. I really liked one idea I saw somewhere where the New Republic and a weakened Empire were locked in a space cold war with each other while splinter groups like the First Order and proxy armies like the Resistance fight in the border regions.
>>44854750 Naw he kills the mentor in the first one, then in the second one he nearly beats finn after a hard fight but poe saves him with his shit, in the last one finn has trained and has a purpose and defeats him.
>>44854764 >I really liked one idea I saw somewhere where the New Republic and a weakened Empire were locked in a space cold war with each other while splinter groups like the First Order and proxy armies like the Resistance fight in the border regions.
Funny enough, this was the plot I had for my own version of "Force Awakens"
>>44854838 >>44854861 Well, I only had a rough idea and only stuff for maybe two episodes but basically...
Things start off with Leia and an Imperial Remanent general/defacto leader (I was thinking of using Thrwan for it, if nothing else just to canonize Chiss) for peace talks, Han nor Chewie want to listen to politics and fuck off around the ship and discover something they shouldn't (namely bombs). Turns out the entire peace summit was a damn trap and there's a shitload of suspects.
They escape to the new Jedi Temple/are saved by Luke who offers to Leia his current apprentice to help investigate. The Imps assign their own who is basically the TOR Imperial Agent.
Conspiracies happen, turns out a third faction has been making the Cold/increasingly heating war for their own gains and seized power, having basically infiltrated every level of everything important, basically going full Heil Hydra.
Including the Imperial Agent who is ordered to execute Luke when the heroes are captured. Luke goes out with a confident smiling, giving one last lesson to his pupil and telling the Agent it's been an honor.
The master of these schemes is indeed a sith, but one who admits he's nowhere near as powerful as Sheev or Vader, so instead he relies on not being seen and being much more subtle in his manipulations than a career in politics. He's also a bit of a coward because when Luke dies and does the whole 'obi-wan death vanish' he becomes paranoid because he knows that's not the last of Luke interfering, if not him somehow being alive because a force user ain't dead until you see a body.
The Agent is actually a triple agent who has been working to help the heroes but needed to maintain cover. To say the least, this shit doesn't fly with the Luke's apprentice or the Skywalker family.
>>44854690 If I recall correctly, though it wasn't mentioned in the actual movie. The First Order has been building up their forces out of sight in the Outer Rim or something.
The whole superweapon was basically a side-project in comparison, with barely any of their forces really committed to it in order to keep it a secret.
Though apparently the First Order has been really focusing on quality over quantity in contrast to the Empire. They don't have as many resources as the Empire did, so they make what little they have better.
Also I'm still totally cheering for the First Order in this trilogy. I mean seriously, the Empire was just an excuse to maintain a Sith Lord's control over the galaxy, while the First Order is actually an organization that truly believes the ideals the Empire pretended to uphold.
>>44854759 >>44854803 I really hate how the original Cartoon made him an amazing threat to the Jedi, while the new CG one literally made him a Saturday morning cartoon villain.
So much potential just gone, and in a real twisting the knife sort of fashion.
>>44855103 > the Empire was just an excuse to maintain a Sith Lord's control over the galaxy, while the First Order is actually an organization that truly believes the ideals the Empire pretended to uphold.
I'm honestly not sure. I think we'll be able to say once we learn more about Snoke.
>>44855137 True, but a lot of the high ranking members seem to at least be true-believers from first impressions alone.
I think it's Kylo Ren's obsession with imitating Vader that did it for him. Ignoring the obvious reasons for why he wants to be like him, Vader was pretty much a symbol of the Empire maintaining order.
Vader at the very least truly believed the Empire was necessary for maintaining order and peace in the Galaxy; and he went out of his way enforcing that belief. The fact that the First Order idolize him makes me inclined to believe their ideals are genuine.
Though who the hell knows if Snoke is or not. I'm really hoping it's not a "resurrect the Sith Order, and the current organization is just a ruse" type of deal or something
>>44855211 Well, given creators have stressed "The Knights of Ren" are NOT siths, though are Darkside users, I'm gonna say Snoke might actually be a foil to his own apprentice and possibly even the First Order by seeking to try something new.
Though while I have my tinfoil hat on, I might as well sum it as: Snoke's current organization probably isn't so much as a ruse as a social experiment and he's probably got a Second, Third, and maybe Fourth Order somewhere in the backwoods' of the galaxy doing somewhat different things. And one doing exactly the same as The Empire for the sake of having a control group.
>>44854040 Uh, that is what Commissars normally do. They're political officers, attached to stamp out disloyalty and cowardice; heresy is something Ministorum Priests deal with. The HERESY *BLAM* is a meme. Note that in DoW the Commissar never calls the man a heretic when he executes him, but he does call him a coward.
>>44853363 I recall them having a few, but their lasers are supposedly power by the Kyber(?) crystals that were originally only found on select planets (Ilum among them), and they make regular lasers look like a las rifle in comparison.
>>44856726 >It would have fit fine to have her kick the everloving shit out of Fin, even the TRAITOR thing, and given her something to actually do. Damn, that would have made her the best character in Abrams trilogy. Maybe even the best in Star Wars period.
>>44856866 >Maybe he literally wanted to copy and paste a character into Fett's highlighted roles. You know, the entire movie is like this. Just awkwardly copying the old ones. So I wouldn't put this past him. Basically Abrams doesn't really understand Star Wars, so just copies surface elements. Jakku was the only truly "Star Wars" thing to me.
>>44856961 >Basically Abrams doesn't really understand Star Wars Anon, you do know he didn't write the script, and he had to contend with his Disney overlords watching every move he made, right? It's clear the entire movie was designed to be as safe and relative to the OT as possible, and blaming Abrams because that's the only name you know is dishonest at best.
>>44857337 Not Disney specifically. Just corporate overlords in general. They didn't give him enough money to make the movie he actually wanted, they forced him to rewrite the script from the mess he first created to what you see today, and plenty of other people involved in the creation of the first film told him that his ideas were terrible and did it their own way instead. Even when Empire was made and Lucas had proved that the Star Wars franchise was gonna most of the actual production was left in the other hands than his own.
When it was time to make the prequels Lucas had complete control over everything.
>>44852662 Seriously though, someone explain why this guy did what he did but just died? If you're only considering the main movies, which is what many people only saw, no other individual stormtrooper accomplishes half of what he did while looking too good for what a stormtrooper should. And then he dies like nothing.
>>44858057 Authoritarianism, "peace through power", "humanity is the chosen race of Space Hitler (later redacted)", all in all it was a rad place if you didn't mind bureaucracy out the ass, not having as many rights as other dudes unless you were human, and not having a lot of political or social freedoms. You didn't get to choose your job but being good at it was all you needed to get ahead, no tiptoeing through company politics or having to deal with capitalism trying to keep good men down so the gentrified old money could stay on top, etc.
Somehow a combination of meritocracy and fascism just feels so damned satisfying.
>>44854690 Empire kept fighting the Rebels. On Jakku, both sides threw everything they had and the Empire lost. The Empire signed a treaty with the Republic to end the conflict.
Since the galaxy was DEVESTATED by poor management and outright looting to support the Imperial war machine, Republuc focused on rebuilding. The Empire fell apart before beibg united by Snoke back into a single faction, the First Order which is more cult than government.
Leia kept an eye on the Empire, but was basically ignored as a paranoid nut by the Republic at large. Before Starkiller Base destroyed the Republic capital system, the bulk of the Republic thought the Empire was just a handful of planets infighting. Nobody outside the Resistance knew about the First Order.
Since /tv/ and /co/ are absolutely worthless (the former being shitposters and the latter genuine idiots who seem to suffer from reading comprehension) for SW discussion, can you guys give a reasonable enough explanation of how only one stormtrooper, indoctrinated since birth, decided to do the "right" thing and betray everything he ever knew. What's the reason for it? What makes him different from thousands of other loyal troopers?
Personally I think it's just a plothole unless they end up filling in some details about Finn's past.
>>44860454 I guess the simple answer is that the human mind is a really freaking complex thing, and maybe it makes more sense that "one indoctrination fits all" policies would probably let a few slip through the cracks. I'm sure there are examples of actual people IRL who have been brainwashed but snap out of it given some really bad situations.
Is that really that hard to believe? I didn't find that too out there. I think the only part where they fell short was in not showing any kind of mental scarring for him when it comes to having slaughtered stormtroopers whom he most likely served beside for years. That could have been handled better.
>Luke is the Jedi grandmaster >jedi academy >former student turns to dark side, kills everyone >Luke goes into hiding for years, no one's heard from him since >Luke is now Obi-Wan and Yoda combined JJ really couldn't think of anything new to do, could he
>>44853240 Poor greenscreen even at the time Lightsaber battles are more comical raves than tense stand offs between foes Jar Jar was how NOT to do a comic relief character Shoe horning in as much as they could for the sake of it so the fanservice felt stale Raises many question about how the setting became what it was in the OT that simply can't be answered Characters have no personality, just do what they do for the plot Bad dialogue Waste of acting talent Yoda with a lightsaber is a fucking pinball Sheev with a lightsaber highlights the "tell don't show" method they took when rambling about the quality of a jedi master Emokin doesn't fall from grace, he just straight up becomes evil one day (TCW sort of fixes this) Horrific waste of potential when you watch the behind the scenes and George is talking about good, pulpy fantasy cliches. Seeing what came of it is just frustrating Clone Wars are just kinda forced (Like every other plot point). It happens because it needs to happen. Palpatine's scheming is shown to be responsible, which was nice, but it was done in such a stupid way that one wonders how the republic gets anything done. I don't mean "They're a beaucratic mess and a shadow of their former selves" I mean a delegated nobody on a senator's staff manages to rewrite the constitution after a single speech. It was nice of George to try fleshing out the setting but he should have just left it. All the best visual aspects (AT-TEs, ARC170s) with the exception of the N-1 were just things taken from the OT but made to look clunkier Racism. I'm not Tumblrina and my opinions on certain parts of the world would get me kicked out of a few pubs but dear lord the racism just becomes cringy after a while. I'm running out because the racism is only kinda a small thing so I'm gonna end by reinforcing bad dialoague. Bad bad bad bad bad dialogue. We're talkinjg dialogue so bad that not even Samual L Jackson, Ewan McGregor and Sir Christopher Lee couldn't make it work.
>>44861154 I think poor old Christopher Lee's dialogue was the worst, because his gravitas is too... I want to say sincere, but I don't think that's right. Like, Samuel L. Jackson has the kind of gravitas that CAN make bad lines good. His delivery of 'motherfucking snakes, motherfucking plane, etc' elevates the silly line. There's a certain winking knowingness to Samuel Jackson, like he's having fun slumming it as Mace Windu, playing straight man to a silly script.
In Star Wars, Christopher Lee always seems like he deserves better, even when he's enjoying himself, like Dooku could be the Saruman to Plapatine's Sauron if only the script would let Lee say the right things. But it never does, and Dooku never quite crystallizes.
>>44860715 >would probably let a few slip through the cracks
Then where are those few? There's no real mention of anything in the dialogue alluding to it. The First Order seem fairly surprised about it. Maybe you could take Phasma's order of going for a checkup as something lke that, but if the threat indoctrination waning is real, you'd think they'd have had him locked down immediately.
>>44862121 >Men In Black 2 Woah there let's not say anything we might regret >>44862126 They could have mentioned something about it in the convo between Hux and Ren about clones vs conscripted children, but they didn't
>>44859584 While this is true, in fantastic non-dark movies there is no reason for the good guys to be ugly, in fact the good guys should be beautiful and the bad guys ugly, unless it's a corruptor role, this is used to exemplify who is good and who isn't. Like black armor.
>>44860454 I think Finn's line about it being the "right" thing was just an excuse (at least at first). He was probably just scared out of his mind and wanted out. Which Poe caught on to right away. Notice how he wanted to just keep running from the First Order instead of joining up with the resistance until the attack hits.
>>44860715 >I think the only part where they fell short was in not showing any kind of mental scarring for him when it comes to having slaughtered stormtroopers whom he most likely served beside for years
Agreed. Would have been nice to show him having a little sympathy or at least hesitancy about killing his former comrades considering they were brainwashed like him. Didn't need to be for long, since they're still trying to kill him, but the fact that he was one of them should mean he above anyone else should be able to believe they aren't all evil to the core.
>>44860715 >>44862624 They also fucked up by not having him do anything. We feel good about Han becoming a good guy because he was a legit bad guy. Not a villain, but he was a career criminal who worked for an organized-crime outfit. He's motivated primarily by money, and him coming back to help Luke is basically just that - he's there to help Luke, not the Rebellion as such, which is why he's still chafing with the whole "part of something bigger than yourself" thing in Empire years later. Finn, on the other hand, is a blank slate. He's part of the space Nazi faction, sure, but he's never been on a mission, he's never committed any atrocities, he's never even fired his blaster at a live target. He's a janitor. Wanting to leave the First Order when you've done nothing of what makes you want to leave just doesn't have the same impact as "I did some awful shit and I just want out".
>>44862624 Have him just be unable to shoot at them while he and Poe are escaping, make it a point of tension: are they going to escape at all, or is Finn going to fuck it up because he's too traumatized to fire on the people shooting at them? Finally he stops panicking and starts thinking, and shoots the cable keeping them tethered, and they're out.
Then, the next time he has to face storm troopers, he has a brief moment of uncertainty as to whether or not he can fire on them even to protect his own life, and then a shot comes way too close to hitting one of his new friends and realizes that he can't pull this shit or people hi likes will die anyway, and he starts actively shooting back.
It's not hard, I can't believe they still fucked it up.
How to improve the force awakens >TR8R is basically turbo-hitler official/commissar style sergeant or similar >He trains finn (and others) >He's brutal and believes in the cause blindly, makes finn and the squad to BAD shit >Finn's generally coward/newbie (like the whole squad) thus giving him more of a background on why the fuck he ends as a janitor and running away, making him gain courage more relevant and the TRAITOR! scene a bit heavier
>the Resistance >resisting what? >The First Order? You mean this random terorrist organization that is too small for the Republic to fight >(but somehow has planet-sized superweapons and star destroyers which ain't cheap) >The Resistance is... >??? >some kind of also-terrorist group? >maybe endorsed by the Republic? >entire fleet is like forty nu-X-wings >after the First Order fucking hyperspace-ISBMs a halfdozen New Republic worlds, they don't inform anyone else of the location of the planet-sized superweapon that's about to be turned on them >They attack an entire planet with about forty strike fighters >No New Republic fleet to smash it to smithereens >no New Republic forces intent on avenging umpteen-billion massacred civilians >no Imperial Remnant forces a little unnerved about some psychotic terrorrists having that much firepower
>>44862126 It's perfectly possible for the indoctrination to have only failed on Finn. Some people's minds are just different for no reason at all, and Finn is quite clearly a person who does not fit the New Order. His personality alone justifies why he would turn.
Also, consider that the indoctrinated Storm Troopers probably aren't very battle tested.
The First Order hasn't fought the Republic directly, just the Resistance. They have a large army and a small enemy. Finn could have been in a reserve unit that Hux decided to test in an easy mission while he kept his best soldiers, like TR-8R, for more important engagements.
This is supported by the fact that Finn was on waste management duty before Jakku, which is hardly something a top soldier would be assigned to.
Hux's outrage at the suggestion that one of his Troopers could turn was more professional pride and an obvious distaste for Kylo Ren than a literal certainty that an indoctrinated Trooper could betray him.
>>44863608 The New Republic fleet was off fucking around, or got destroyed by the new superweapon.
The problem wasn't getting the attack off on the first order, the problem was attacking the FO before they destroyed the planet they had all their stuff on.
If the attack on the base had failed, all that would have happened is Leia and all the Resistance faggots got killed, then the NR Fleet would move in and blow the fuck out of them.
Resistance is bad writing, but I like to think of it as what would happen if America put together an unofficial task force for taking down ISIS. Yeah, it's illegal as fuck, yeah, it's an abuse of authority, but someone's got to be watching those fuckers, their fleet is off dealing with real threats, doing diplomacy, and taking care of galactic business instead of this interplanetary shit. They just didn't know that the First Order had Weapons of Mass Destruction, or they'd have taken care of it themselves.
>>44863845 I haven't been following this >> chain closely, but pretty much everything here seems reasonable and plausible. Finn's turning struck me as a mild stretch, but never a particularly jarring one.
Which is not to say I don't think the movie was dumb and bad, but that was for other reasons. Nice visual porn though.
>>44859010 yeah, the idea of a combination of meritocracy and fascism always sounds neat
then you get the unpleasant reminder that the merit being measured is never going to be "are you good at your job," it's "does the person who decides if you advance or not think you should advance." And that person has plenty of incentive to regard you being good at your job as a negative.
There's a reason all autocracies devolve into stupid petty court infighting; when all power ultimately flows from the Emperor's whims, the only kind of merit is catering to those whims better than the other guy.
See, for example, Grand Moff Wilhuff "I Am Going To Build A Moon-Sized Space Station To Scare The Shit Out Of My, And By Extension Your Enemies" Tarkin. Could the money have been spent better? Oh yeah. Millions of different ways.
But the idea got Sheev's rocks off, so guess who gets the go-ahead and the "please use my pet enforcer as you will" greenlight.
>>44854830 I had my own idea for what would have been better.. Basically the magnificent seven with Jedi traveling the galaxy collecting force sensitive people to rebuild the Jedi order and stop the first order
>>44863907 I mean, you can do enough mental gymnastics to make anything seem reasonable. In the original lines for Ep IV, Han Solo claims the MF made the Kessel Run in twelve parsecs. The description of the lines in the script are basically that he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, he's spouting impressive nonsense. Han Solo is a criminal, a shyster, a smuggler, after all.
Then you have no end of EU writers who do fucking backflips to write an in-universe explanation to make "Kessel run in twelve parsecs" make sense.
It's the kind of chaff that just smacks of terrible writing to me. I'm not going to deliberately try to pick apart the smallest little things, I can do a little padding out on my own, but the movie has to meet me half, and TFA didn't really.
>>44863978 So is there any explanation for why the New Republic's high command came down with an inexplicable case of terminal stupidity? Also, Imperial Remnant taking in scattered and defenseless NR worlds when.
Imagine that the US armed forces got split into 51 equally sized parts, one part goes to every state, and the leftover part goes to DC. The DC part is now officially the US armed forces; everything else is the Illinois, Georgia, whatever armed forces.
The First Order took out DC, and the DC armed forces. The regional territories still have theirs.
Now, getting those regional fleets to all point in the same direction is going to be a huge pain in the ass, but it's at least doable.
>>44864009 >The description of the lines in the script are basically that he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, he's spouting impressive nonsense. Han Solo is a criminal, a shyster, a smuggler, after all. It would have been great in TFA if this had happened >Rey - "This is the MF?! I heard it made the Kessel Run in fourteen parsecs! >Han, walking away - "Twelve!" >beat >Han, with a sly grin - "Huh, maybe it was fourteen."
The first Order isn't a random terrorist organization. It's like North Korea/Weimar Reopublic. The Rebels couldn't deliver a killing blow to the Empire, but they could force them into a cease fire.
The Empire kept control of some of its territory, and continued being an oppressive totalitarian government. The First Order is rising up from within the remnants of the Empire to resume the fight anew.
And the New Republic was so worried about being another Old Republic/Empire that after the war, they didn't really push for centralized authority, a massive galactic navy, and aren't interested in another galaxy-wide war, so they're trying to appease the Empire/First Order while backing independent paramilitary groups (the Resistance) that oppose it.
This all seemed to work for them until the First Order just launched a first strike against the New Republic, but their super weapon was destroyed before they could make a follow up attack.
Now the stage is set for another war between the Empire and New Republic.
>>44864150 If the books are canon, and they seem to be for now under Disney's iron fist, nope, all, absolutely, all ships, soldiers, everything, was in Hosnian System, literally with one shot the First Order "killed" the New Republic, all that is left are the different rules of each separated system and probably shitty as fuck militia.
>>44864065 As for why this happened: everyone wanted to be REAL damn sure that the New Republic wasn't gonna be meet the new Palpatine, same as the old Palpatine, every time we make a decision that might offend Coruscant a fleet pops by to ask us if we could reconsider/how much of the surface of the planet we would like non-molten.
To which, given that the Empire was shattered and broken, the Republic government said "yeah okay, that's fair, we'll split the fleets and do a round-robin capital sort of thing, just so all power doesn't get concentrated on Coruscant again."
Evidently this was filmed, and was cut for the reason "fuck space politics, there is no reason for anyone to care, the important thing is the characters." I tend to agree.
>>44864203 Yes. The American Army has been destroyed. There is still, however, a Virginia, New York, and Arizona army. They ain't much interested in shit happening outside their respective borders, but they exist.
I hate that most of the info being discussed about First Order/New Republic/Empire/Resistance isn't even in the fucking movie. It's all supplemental material. >>44864203 I got the ebook for Dark Disciple, it has the new Official Star Wars Timeline. It's so small now. >Prequel trilogy >Clone Wars CG TV show >Dark Disciple >Lords of the Sith >Tarkin >A New Dawn >Rebels CG TV series >OT >Aftermath >Force Awakens >>44864210 Except they talked a bunch about space politics in ANH, and people cared.
>>44864263 One scene. "Is anyone gonna fuck us up?" "Nah. Boss says we're cool." "The rebels exist. We should fuck them up." "Nah, fuck you. This station is awesome. Let's blow something else up." "I am a space wizard."
>>44864263 >I hate that most of the info being discussed about First Order/New Republic/Empire/Resistance isn't even in the fucking movie. It's all supplemental material.
To be fair, a lot of that stuff is glossed over in the OT as well. The PT is about the only time we really saw people discussing Galactic politics, and it was among the least well received stuff among audiences.
I can understand why they cut it out, but if they were going to take inspiration from ANH the way they did, a scene where they briefly discuss the New Republic/Imperial Remnant the same way the Imperial officers discussed dissolving the senate would have been useful.
But casuals don't really give a fuck and "fans" are going to get filled in on the supplemental information anyway, so it's kind of a non-issue.
Remember all that people cheering in Corusant when the second death star was destroyed? all of those briging Palpatine's statue down? remember? they got beat to death, Corusant is still in Empire's grasp.
>>44863608 The Resistance is a splinter group. They're soldiers who quit the Republic Fleet to fight against The First Order, because the Republic at large didn't want to risk triggering a war with all the other Imperial Remnant groups. Their fleet was small because they had no official endorsement, just secretly funneled support from sympathetic groups within the Republic. There was no one to call who could respond in time because the entire Republic Fleet was destroyed and the remaining forces were in disarray. The Republic Fleet was all in one place because nobody knew that destroying a system from thousands of light years away was even possible.
>>44864210 Except the characters were pretty much non-entities. Poe was probably the best, and he was offscreen for 70% of the movie. Finn was good, but not great. Rey could have been replaced by an astromech droid with pilot subroutines.
>>44864240 >don't give a shit about things happening outside their respective borders Not even a superweapon that could annihilate their worlds from literally the other side of the galaxy? 'cause I'd care about that a lot.
>>44864482 >>Not even a superweapon that could annihilate their worlds from literally the other side of the galaxy? 'cause I'd care about that a lot.
They didn't know about that thing. It's like how the Allies knew that the Nazis and Japanese were building up their respective military forces and doing a lot of saber rattling, but that didn't prevent the invasion of Poland and France/Pearl Harbor.
Yes they knew about the weapon and what it could do *after* the weapon was used, but after the weapon had been used, the main Republic fleet was already pretty much crippled and all you had left were scattered and disorganized remnants who still didn't seem to have much of an idea of where exactly the attack came from and how it was carried out.
But, there was a counterattack. Hours after Starkiller base fired for the first (and only time) the Resistance launched a counter attack and destroyed it. They were able to do so because they were the only ones actively fighting the First Order at the time and the only ones on actively ready for war.
That's the First Order. The First Order has risen to power in what remains of the Empire's territories and instead of just being happy with holding on to Imperial territory, they're moving the Empire towards expansion and destruction of the New Republic.
>>44864735 The way the attack panned out in the movie had some really dumb stuff going on. Remember when the commander guy told all hangars to scramble everything to intercept the X-Wings, then about five minutes later we see a hangar full of TIE fighters still in their cradles while the pilots and crew stand around not doing anything?
>>44863023 TR8R is cool because he's just a Storm Trooper. He doesn't need a backstory or some forced connection to Finn. He already worked to maximum affect, and now people will pop for any sight of a Storm Trooper with one of those batons or the shield he was carrying.
The next movie will have a whole squad of them and people will love it. They'll probably capture Finn so Rey can leave her training early to go save him.
I do think I focus a bit too much on the Imperial Agent dude myself.
>>44856316 Memes are a side effect of just something being a memorable, quotable, and recognizable allusion.
Shit, memes are basically the root of modern language. What do you think romantic males get referred to as "Romeos"?
>tfw given Shakespeare's nature as a pop writer, if he were around he'd be putting in memes in to his works.
>>44856726 >>44864776 This was something that disappointed me with TR-8R. They should have just made that Phasma. They could have even let Han shoot her but then show in like the aftermahe Phasma getting up and joining the rest.
>>44853975 One of THREE(3!) superweapons capable of doing so that the cloned Emperor rolled out, along with the World Devastators, which actually gobbled up planets to spit out droid TIE Fighters, and his personal mothership, the Eclipse-class Star Destroyer (pictured here in LEGO form).
>>44856316 I fucking hate Kylo fucking Ren and his ridiculousness. Darth Vader deflected blaster bolts with his bare (robot) hands? Kylo Ren stops blaster bolts IN MID FUCKING AIR while he has a conversation! Darth Vader caused excruciating pain to people to extract information or just because? Kylo Ren PULLS THE MEMORIES RIGHT OUT! Gotta one up the old man!
>>44865170 I complain about Rey beating Kylo Ben because: 1: He's been established the whole movie as the darkside lord of temper tantru- I mean anger. B: He knows what he's doing. III: He just put the brutal smackdown on Finn, and Rey has been humiliating him all movie. Points against him are that he's injured. Rey is freezing because she's wearing desert clothes.
>>44854968 >some random anon comes up with 10/10 plot on his own time with no extra resources >Abrams comes up with shitty plagiaristic plotless fuckfest with a full team of writers and millions of dollars brb making bombs
>>44854597 >I get the feeling Snoke is a tiny yoda-sized creature using the force, to project himself bigger and scarier than he really is. Wouldn't need the Force for that. Sheev was a little old man, the holoprojector just made him big because ego. >It would be hilarious if he really is yoda-sized and Kylo's entire training montage to being a Sith is the same thing Luke did while on Daggobah with Yoda. I actually want it to be the opposite: Sheev made himself bigger with the holoprojector, but Snoke really is that big.
>>44865240 >>44865274 He's also an encouraging leader, brave enough to sacrifice himself to complete his mission, shrewd enough to know when he's being lied to, readily loyal to his allies and a genuinely friendly guy. Admittedly a lot of that is more because of Oscar Isaac than anything else, but it's there nonetheless.
I don't think you can explain all that while also writing like a Joss Whedon sidekick, so I can see why you didn't post it.
>>44858860 >It's lando calrissian, you could say that he was the father of any of the cast and it would be believeable EXACTLY!!!
>>44858897 >anon it says in his own entry that Nines was just wounded by Chewie's blaster Doubtful he lived though, First Order kinda had a thing about letting the weak getting killed off...
>>44859842 >even better, he's probably the battalion Sgt. Major and it's his duty to carry the single anti-Jedi weapon No, the Z-6 Riot Baton is just that, a Baton used to beat people into submission. Since this is the Star Wars Universe, "People" might very well be Wookies or Gamorreans, for whom you're going to need an electrified beat stick for them to even feel it. For some reason, being a giant taser stick allows them to stop Lightsabers...
>>44860454 >can you guys give a reasonable enough explanation of how only one stormtrooper, indoctrinated since birth, decided to do the "right" thing and betray everything he ever knew. What's the reason for it? What makes him different from thousands of other loyal troopers? Basically, the indoctrination never really TOOK when it came to Finn, in the prequel Graphic Novel Phasma makes a point that he has a worrying amount of compassion and he was always looking out for Slips, that Stormtrooper he saw killed in the beginning who smeared blood on his helmet.
>>44864546 >Imagine if we had gotten Skippy the Jedi Droid. But he sacrifice his Motivator for the good of the Galaxy...
>>44865667 >b-but being good at staff fighting makes you good at swordplay! Literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard come out of this argument. There is the "Rey was mind-wiped" theory but it's far more likely given what is said in the movie that Luke didn't drop her off, her mother did. >Whoever you're waiting for isn't coming back. But someone else still could. >....Luke. This implies that Luke didn't leave her there. I'd find it hilarious if they opened Episode 8 on Rey and Luke in that horribly staged shot with her holding her lightsaber out, he casually takes the lightsaber from her with the Force and asks who the hell she is. Rey says "I'm Rey! I'm your daughter!" Luke says "What? No...that's impossible" with the air of someone thinking "pretty sure I used a condom".
>>44865472 It's a long established fact of the series that using the force is as much a state of mind as a skill, and that even novices can tap into that power briefly if they get their head right.
Rey used the Force to beat Kylo in exactly the same way that Luke used the Force to destroy the Death Star or Obi-Wan used the Force to beat Sith Lord Darth Maul. Inversely, Kylo couldn't control his powers in that scene because he was a fucking mess..
>>44866069 >Rey used the Force to beat Kylo in exactly the same way that Luke used the Force to destroy the Death Star or Obi-Wan used the Force to beat Sith Lord Darth Maul. Inversely, Kylo couldn't control his powers in that scene because he was a fucking mess.. Except she had been using the Force throughout the movie. She out-Force-pulled him, she pushed back into Ren's own mind, she pulled a mind-trick out of nowhere. Meanwhile, Luke used the Force, once, at the end of the movie, after spending the rest of the movie not hacking it and needing to get saved. Hell, Luke could only get the shot off because Han saved him.
>>44866195 this is one of the things that made me less angry about the Rey/Ren fight. Though I do feel like Ren should have won (though maybe crippled and thus when the ground starts splitting, he can't pursue)
>>44865040 >>44865170 Sadly though, I would buy Phasma beating Finn easily. Authority and badassery usually go hand in hand with incarnations of The Empire.
>>44865190 As someone who normally hates Romeo and Juliet... This would make me want to watch it more.
>>44865613 Well, thanks, I don't know about it being 10/10, really is basically cribs from Captain America: Winter Soldier. And possibly elements of Metal Gear Revengeance.
>>44866220 >Meanwhile, Luke used the Force, once, at the end of the movie, after spending the rest of the movie not hacking it and needing to get saved.
Farm boy happens to be an ace pilot, can hold his own against storm troopers, and blocks laser blasts with a light-saber with his eyes closed. Nope. The proton torpedo shot was not the first exceptional thing Luke ever did.
>>44866220 >Except she had been using the Force throughout the movie. There's no need to exaggerate. It makes you seem emotional.
She used the Force three times in the third act, four if you really want to count pulling the Light Saber separately from the fight itself. All uses fit the way I described. Yes, that's slightly different from how Luke did it. I guess the film should have been more like A New Hope....
>>44866369 Luke wanted to go to pilot school, uncle Lars didn't want him getting into anything adventure-y like what 'killed' his father. He did however take him hunting, and Tatooine was full of raiders and bandits. Luke kind of knew what he was doing with the tusken raider encounter, he just got outflanked. He was training on that, painfully, for a while. The point of it was force training.
>>44866459 If Abrams used the exact same script and cahnged the names, people would complain that Luke is a Mary Sue, Based Tarkin wasn't the main character and Leia SJWSJWSJWSJSJWSJSWSJSSWSJWSJSWJSSWSJSJW.
>>44866860 >Luke wanted to go the academy because he wanted the fuck off of Tatooine.
OP was trying to imply that Luke wanting to go to pilot school somehow explained how he happened to be an ace pilot who was better than people who HAD been through flight school and seen years of actual combat.
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