>>Magistrate: "Worthless scum! Why have you murdered this samurai and his wife and child?!"
If the magistrate is so furious as to insult the samurai, he's not questioning him, he's having an eta torture him for a confession. The fact that three people died in a "duel" would also suggest that.
>>Reminder that, as always, Spider Clan > Your Clan.
Crab Clan vet seeking to overthrow the Emperor in order to kickstart the tech level of the world. He is aided by a four man boss squad made up of ronin from four other clans plus a small army of mooks.
Gonna ask again, because last thread died, and why not.
Anyone getting a game together, or already has one that needs someone else, and is willing to take a newbie? I'm really interested in the setting and system, but I'd hate to take all the time to learn it, and then have it just be yet another system I'll never find a game for. (Plus, it's easier to learn, with someone to talk to about it)
This is what his mask does when he puts it on.
I've Got a question. How can people get so bent out of shape about the rate is perceived lack of knowledge about Japan (and to a lesser extent ancient) China)?
It is supposed to be a fantasy game in a fantasy world, so how come peeps get bent out of shape about it? You don't get the same sort bitching about say forgtten realms.
Because Forgotten Realms wasn't specifically billed and marketed as a game for people interested in European history and culture, and didn't call itself an RPG for people who like European history, culture, and historical cinema.
L5R was and did. L5R's marketing was "Like samurai history? Like Kurosawa movies? PLAY LEGEND OF THE FIVE RINGS!" And then failed to deliver an authentic feeling portrayal of what anyone interested in those things was looking for. Essentially a lot of the bitching comes from the game promising one thing and delivering another. And it's made even more apparent when at the time there were games like Bushido and AD&D's Kara-Tur which delivered both an authentic feeling worlds AND wide open fantasy.
4e was a lot more honest about what it is, though, but almost to the point it started to feel like it was in denial about it's Japanese fantasy roots. This was especially apparent in the community where people would flip shit if you so much as said the word "Japan" when someone would ask for inspiration on how to treat or portray something. Acting like L5R was just completely made up fantasy and any resemblance to anything Japanese was pure coincidence. A ridiculous opposite extreme.
>L5R's marketing was "Like samurai history? Like Kurosawa movies? PLAY LEGEND OF THE FIVE RINGS!"
L5R is, was, and likely always will be, "Like MAGICAL FANTASY SAMURAI? Don't CARE about HISTORICAL ACCURACY, but want something with lore stretching back 20 RL years?! Have we got the GAME for YOU!!!"
Okay so it's more a perceived sense of false advertising.
As came to it the fourth edition I always looked at it as 'oriental adventures with a focus on court politicking', so I never saw a problem with it. That's exactly what I was looking for a game.
If you were told it was based off actual historical battles of Japan I could understand why you be pissed.
Essentially, a love note to the writer of the Hagekure, with American takes on Miyamoto Musashi.
This was L5R's THING since day 1, when they scrapped the idea of calling Toturi & Hoturi (historically accurate to Japan) Toyoturi (sic) & Hoyoturi. (sic)
A lot of GMs and fans still try to draw people into the game that way, so it could be less AEG bait-and-switching them and shitty GMs doing it. And AEG didn't COMPLETELY abandon that standpoint, they're just a LOT more honest about the fantasy side of things.
Plus there's also fucking morons who think that someone giving their justification for "Rokugan your way"-ing something is "bitching," as the other side of the fence is waaaaay too sensitive about people criticizing the sillier aspects of the setting.
Assuming that's true, do you think it's just a 'cultural appropriation' thing?
Western myths and history is up for grabs, taking liberties with a nonwhite culture is just sort of not on to people? Even though Japan is the last group of people to complain about it
Yeah, here's the thing, when Wick went and wrote a historical Japan RPG independently, it ended up getting all the exact same things wrong L5R did in the exact same ways. Wick then fervently defends these mistakes as the world just being wrong and he is the only one who understands Japanese history correctly.
Wick is also the guy who originally wrote all those things into L5R. Wick HONESTLY BELIEVED the shit he wrote into L5R was culturally authentic and how things were.
The "oh, it's just silly fantasy" excuse was made WELL after the fact to excuse the Wickisms not have to rewrite Wick's input wholesale and keep the setting recognizably the same.
Sure thing, cool breeze. You keep that meaningful dialogue flowing.
>Assuming that's true, do you think it's just a 'cultural appropriation' thing?
Is there a meaning or agenda to the term 'cultural appropriation' that you're intending to spring here??
I've seen some people call "cultural appropriation" on L5R, but they're also the same kind of people who call "cultural appropriation" on white people eating fucking tacos.
The only thing that honestly comes anywhere close to "cultural appropriation" in L5R is probably the gross misrepresentation of Shugenja and Shugendo. Shugendo is a real world religion with real practitioners (called shugenja) who may or may not appreciate L5R using their faith and titles to refer to courtly elementalist wizard/priests. But then again, being Buddhists they'll probably not give any fucks because that's just what they do.
>Yeah, here's the thing, when Wick went and wrote a historical Japan RPG independently
Here's the other thing: Wick just doesn't matter.
We could have this whole conversation about L5R, and not mention what he's done or what he's doing once.
However you spin it, you can't escape the fact that there were many people working on L5R the ccg in 1995, and more people working on L5R 1e however many years later. No matter what you saw in the game (ever) - those people knew there was such a thing as too historically accurate for their market demographic.
Wick made L5R what it was, but he doesn't matter. L5R stands apart from Wick and, in some cases, is even confused for Wick. (4e, p312 "An Example Of Showing Consequences" is an anecdote from another writer, but commonly mislabelled in these threads as a Wickism for it's themes and the outrage it can spark)
You're still missing it. His existence is irrelevant to talking about L5R.
I've already brought up the fact that the team purposefully chose historical inaccuracy when it suited them better. If you want to continue pushing for your argument in the face of that, I'll leave pissing into the wind to you.
I mentioned in a thread a long time ago I actually showed L5R to a bunch of Japanese gamers. They mostly thought it was stupid, and could barely get passed laughing at the bad Japanese.
Blackmail, the advantage: How have you seen it used? How are you supposed to use it? Considering that you could shove enough XP into it to blackmail someone very high status, what shenanigans could you pull?
You're both pretentious idiots. Piss off, you dumb fucks.
>what shenanigans could you pull [vs someone very high status]?
You could easily be silenced as soon as you attempt to leverage your knowledge, or bring it to someone that doesn't like your blackmail target very much, and offer some kind of exchange in the hope that they don't already know. Maybe you'll even survive.
>Considering that you could shove enough XP into it to blackmail someone very high status, what shenanigans could you pull?
Could you pull? Realistically not much.
Here's the thing that I never liked about blackmail, you're a fucking Status 1 pissant, your blackmail against someone of a very high status is more than likely to get laughed off if you try to do anything with it unless it's some pretty powerful shit (like, I dunno, "X is really a maho-tsukai!" or something).
Is there a quick and easy way to make NPC's. Basically making a entire new character for every NPC the PCs might or might not fight is.... tedious to say the least.
Hey thanks. But I do have a question about it. Is the 'kharma' stuff from older editions, as it seems to be an alignment system and 4e doesn't really seem to do that.
Ah ok, thanks man appreciate the link.
Will really make making characters not want to just quit GM'ing
I've made a weather chart for traveling long distances in the winter, and would like some critique on it. I know it's probably mediocre, but I'm not sure how to go about improving it.
1. Blizzard - No movement allowed
2. Snow Fog - Decreased movement, possibility of getting lost. - 10 Miles, Roll A INT TN 15, If fail lose another - 5 miles.
3. Clear Day - Increased movement + 5 miles
4. Light Snow - Decreased movement - 5 miles
5. Same As Yesterday - Roll encounter chart
6. Heavy Snow. - 10 Miles moved
7. Heavy Wind - Slower movement - 10 Miles. Roll earth ring TN10, if fail go down 1 wound level
8. Warm - Faster movement + 5 Miles
9. Same As Yesterday.
10. Extreme Cold. Roll a earth ring check of 15; if fail lose 1 wound levels and have -10 miles moved today.
Random OP pic related question: do any Scorpion actually knows why they are supposed to wear those masks? The mask covering the mouth is the whole point... so why do they wear masks that specifically leave the mouth visible? Are they, like, stupid, or what?
>All Scorpion samurai wear masks, as the Kami Bayushi did, to honor their immortal founder. The style of the mask varies wildly by the wearer, and is always an extremely personal choice. Scorpion take their masks very seriously, and some would no sooner be seen without their mask than without their daisho.
>All Scorpion samurai wear masks, as the Kami Bayushi did, to honor their immortal founder.
Yes, and Bayushi wore the mask specifically to cover his mouth, as Trollsei had taught him.
Now read the second sentence.
>The style of the mask varies wildly by the wearer, and is always an extremely personal choice
Scorpion don't wear masks because Bayushi wore one to cover his mouth, Scorpion wear masks because Bayushi wore one. The reasons Bayushi wore a mask are his and his alone, but all his followers wear mask because he wore one, but the reasons for their choice of masks are theirs and theirs alone.
That's what makes the Scorpion mask culture interesting, it's simultaneously collectivism (they all wear masks) and an expression of individualism (everyone's mask is unique). It's a contradiction.
Either way the point still stands. Scorpion wearing masks has nothing to do with covering their mouths.
No, this is fucking nonsensical. It is like using a katana with a copper blade - while you do have a katana, you are still tragically missing the whole point of having a katana.
You can't even hand-wave it with tradition. The whole practice is just disrespectful.
>The Scorpion Clan is fond of remarking that their own physical masks are not concealment at all, but rather an admission of the truth: no samurai ever show their true selves. “All of us wear masks,” the Scorpion say, “the difference is, we of the Scorpion admit it.”
>Bayushi masks are also more likely to be designed to achieve some specific effect on those viewing them, and they may use several different masks to achieve specific effects. Soshi and Shosuro masks are more likely to be purely utilitarian, and the Yogo generally don’t care what impact their masks have on others, decorating them only to please themselves.
The point of the mask isn't to hide the mouth, or to hide the eyes or anything like that, the point of the Scorpion mask is to show the world that you're wearing a mask.
The Scorpion believe that everyone wears a mask on their heart and mind, disguising their true beliefs and intentions from the world. They wear masks on their faces to show that. Their masks represent the acknowledgement that they wear an internal mask, and a reminder to everyone else that their intentions and goals are disguised.
Essentially, Scorpion clan samurai known as liars and portray themselves as such, they don't fight it, all they want is for other samurai to admit that they are lairs too
It's still a lot deeper than that. It also ties in with Bayushi's principals as he learned from Shinsei and the idea of "do not expose your true nature, and others will always underestimate your capabilities."
The same lesson that gave Bayushi the idea to wear the mask.
>Almost all Scorpion are familiar with Shinsei's retelling of the tale of the Scorpion and the Frog to Bayushi. To some, it is the crucial historical moment when Bayushi realized his role in the Empire; to others, it serves as a classic reminder of the first lesson that any young Scorpion learns: nothing is ever as it seems. This tale is the reason why all Scorpion wear their masks at all times.
I always found it amusing that Bayushi wore the mask originally to remind himself of the lesson Shinsei taught him and then everyone else copied it because he did it. Everyone thinks there's something sinister behind the masks, but it's as much a reminder to THEMSELVES as it is everyone else.
The Scorpion do use sneaky and underhanded methods, but like the masks they wear I think their best tricks are ones that hide in plain sight,
In nature, it's the smallest scorpions that are the most dangerous, because their venom is so much more potent. Bigger scorpions have correspondingly bigger and stronger pincers, and are able to grapple their opponents quite effectively; as such, their venom never had to become very strong, since they use it in conjunction with their physical strength as a stunning agent more than a killing one.
By contrast, smaller scorpions are weak, and their pincers don't have the mass or force to make grappling with opponents a safe proposition, and their venom has had to become a lethal weapon in its own right for them to survive.
I like to think the same is true in the Scorpion also. The big, important Scorpions, your Daimyo and your Clan Champion, they have obvious strength to apply, and use deception and trickery in conjunction with political power and force of arms. But the little Scorpions, the rank and file, they have no armies or political connections, and their deceptions must be so much keener.
Pretty much this.
Starting in the 3rd edition they reminded everyone that it was first and foremost a high fantasy setting with some oriental touches here and there.
For some reason they still told people how to do Samurai drama and watch Kurosawa movies for inspiration in their RPGs, despite failing so miserable to deliver on this in their weekly fiction.
There aren't any clear answers, but it seems to be very roughly 1 out of 3 that doesn't have the gift. They usually join whatever courtier or bushi school they are suited for and serve as part of their family's support structure, yojimbo or agents of their siblings and cousins who do have the gift.
>I cannot find what is not there
Your journey towards enlightenment has begun.
There's also been mention of bloodlines that have been losing their gift, little by little over the generations, which is why anyone born with the gift who isn't already part of a shugenja family will be courted by that family. Because it follows bloodlines, two shuggies getting married is slightly better than a shuggie and a non-shuggie (But a non-shuggie from a shuggie bloodline is better than a non-shuggie from a mundane bloodline)
Basically, shugenja in every clan practice mild amounts of eugenics to keep their power in the "proper" families.
It follows bloodlines the same way people follow webcomics.
Watch while they are interesting, but lose interest, either over time, due to poor decisions or reader existence failure. Rokugani believe that the gift to speak to the Kami is inherited because they mistake correlation for causation.
It follows bloodlines because the little kami are kinda stupid and don't comprehend that mortals grow old and die.
So when they see someone who closely resembles (In a spiritual kind of way) that one guy they really liked, they assume that it must be the same guy. Right up until he stops doing things that they like, anyway.
Shugenja are a rarity, and while exact numbers aren't given, 'shugenja family' is something of a misnomer - they're families with more shugenja in them. Even the Isawa are only a fraction shugenja.
>So when they see someone who closely resembles (In a spiritual kind of way)
It can (and often is) a physical way. There's a reason shugenja like the Kitsu are the most traditional samurai around, and change their style of clothing little, if at all - the kami recognise their clothes as much as (if not more than) the person in them.
Here's a question. How would someone become cursed by an element? They go 'oh, a shugenja's curse', but as far as I can tell that's way out of the scope of a shugenja's powerset as written. Other than making it easier for people to cast magic of the corresponding element on you, what effects would it have?
What would be a good Agasha shugenja?
Right like Isawa have UNLIMITED MAGICAL POWER, Void shugenja, and arrogance.
Asako shugenja tend to either tend to come in two forms; Master of Water and Earth shugenja for the inquisitors.
Well, the shugenja curse isn't a spell. It's one of those poorly defined ritualistic powers. Basically, just yelling kami-speak obscenities at someone in earshot of some kami and hoping it influences the kami to treat them in a corresponding way.
As for how it would manifest outside of blatant supernatural effects, it would probably just be little things. If water is splashing around, then you're more likely to get hit. If you're walking on soft ground, you push into it a little more, your possessions and clothes are just a little bit more flammable than they should be (Or less flammable if you're actually trying to start a fire), and every gust of wind messes up your hair or clothes at least a bit.
Someone in your family line did something offensive; in one game my character's mother had damaged a shrine to Benten in defending phoenix lands. This resulted in Benten's monks shaming her and some trouble with the air kami not liking her, her husband, and their kids.
Maximum Regrets Shugenja. You always get the reminder that you have left the comfy Dragon mountains for some maho-practicing, trigger-happy, arrogant assholes and you have burnt all those bridges so you are stuck with these guys whether you like it or not. You most likely don't like it (or won't like it), and the best you can get out of this terrible deal is a bro-tier Shiba bodyguard.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the mountains, the Tamori is busy doing all sorts of awesome shit, and they always rub it under your nose just to make you more miserable.
Being Agasha is suffering.
Because they're pretty bad. They're so arrogant about being the "best" that they can't comprehend ever being wrong. So when they are wrong (Such as when they do anything at all related to maho other than destroying it), they just slam their head straight into damnation.
And more than half the times when an Isawa becomes a maho-tsukai, it's because he or she thought they could totally beat the corruption because they could never be wrong about something magic related. Pro-tip: They can't beat the corruption and refuse to learn from the many, many examples they have of Isawa shugenja who couldn't beat the corruption.
Yes, actually. Most get lured in by promises of power or desperation.
The Isawa have some powerhungry or desperate ones, but they regularly get maho users who learned maho because they were arrogant enough to think they could somehow find a way to remove the taint from the process.
Oh, of course not!
But the Phoenix have a LOT of shugenja and unfortunately the most arrogant shugenja family in the Empire is effectively in charge of them, so you get a lot of that.
The Phoenix aren't the worst Clan, but when they DO go bad they tend to self-destruct in an amazingly spectacular fashion and do a lot of damage and it's usually 100% their fault because the Isawa have no self-control apparently.
hey L5 General, quick question. what is the largest change to a fundamental part of the setting that you would love to see FFG make? Doesn't matter how unreasonable it is, just throw it out there.
Maybe blur the line between Clans a bit.
Not remove the line, but not make every member of a Great Clan fit into stereotypes just because you're fuckass lazy writer and it's easier. Like, give the Crane a larger army to go with the fact that their lands are literally twice the size of any other Clans, but emphasize how their army STILL isn't as good as the tightly regimented and highly drilled Lion.
I mean, face it; the original Great Clans each of which are incredibly obviously designed to appeal to specific gamer character archetypes to give each faction a built-in fanbase literally as soon as they look at the game. Go look at your L5R group, see who plays what Clan most often, then look at what they play most often when they play D&D and you'll see what I mean.
And I'm actually fine with that (it's very clever marketing; you don't need to "sell" factions because to some degree they're already sold), but do something about the constant effort of the fluff to make every samurai from the Clan family exactly like every other samurai from the same Clan family.
Mix shit up a little, you know?
It won't harm anything and CCG players won't notice or even care because it won't change how the faction plays.
Do you really even need to say this one?
It's like saying "gravity makes shit fall down"; yeah, no kidding man.
I'm pretty sure everyone wanted them gone YEARS ago, let alone right now.
I'm kind of with >>44826148, but in a different way. What I'd like to see is less centralized power structure on all levels. Weaker imperial throne surrounded by the constant conflict of a more manipulative court and in constant conflict with a bakufu. A greater emphasis on the independence of the clan families with the Great Clans being more coalitions of families, allowing for more internal conflict within the clans.
And the Spider took over the world, along with it. No. Fucking. Thanks.
Probably because they want "traditional Japanese horror" and don't know about how shadowland infiltrators operate or about all of the non-Jigoku spirits and monsters that can easily fill that role.
I like the Shadowlands, but I'd like them more de-emphasized then as something the writers push when it's time for a new edition.
>"Oh, new set coming out? Time to hit the Shadowlands Horde Button!"
That shit got boring around Gold, but they kept fucking doing it.
Jesus, can you imagine how much damage a Tamori-trained Matsu could do? Tamori even have warrior-shugenja training for fuck's sake.
>Unfortunate Enemy Samurai: "Why is that Matsu running at us holding a prayer charm?"
>Matsu Shug: "EXPLOSIOOOOOONS!"
It actually wouldn't be too difficult to get shuggie training, since a lot of shuggies believe that letting the gift of the kami go to waste is blasphemous and would therefore require less concessions for an exchange student.
That would make sense.
Odds are any talent they had would be overlooked by the Kitsu cause they aren't what they want.
And no Lion is going to send them to be trained by those ronin shugenja wandering around the empire.
There is difference between the Kitsu Shugenja school as a whole and the Sodan Sanzo.
That said, most likely, they would be a Devoted Disciple if they are trained as Shugenja, or would be a Bushi with Inner Gift.
no, I just feel that the evil land full of demons does not mix too well with a game and a setting about picking a side and beating the shit out of everyone else. It acts as an existential threat that really can't be dealt with other than containing it, and I feel that its a waste of a land mass that could be used to tell other stories, or contain other people to kill.
I Just find humans to be a more compelling enemy than giant beasts from hell.
Maybe put just a BIT more research when you name shit so don't end up with elegant honorable horsewoman warrior families named "Creepy Shut-in Nerd" or graceful elegant courtier families named "Clumsy/Clueless".
What's next, the Hentai Family?
Maybe the Kusottare Family?
There was a cool thread on the AEG forums trying to fit kanji to Rokugani family names (this was after the backlash against people taking "rokugan not japan" to the extreme, thankfully) that I helped out with a little, it was very... interesting.
A couple of things to note about the Japanese language is it's LOADED with homonyms (look up "there are two chickens in the garden") and name kanji follow completely different rules than normal (you can almost arbitrarily assign any reading to a kanji as long as its used in a name, and there are entire dictionaries specifically for names kanji, for a good time find one and look up how many different ways you can write "Akira"), so some of the crazier names actually end up getting a pass in the end... some.
One funny thing I did discover doing that little project is that one of the homonyms for "Hantei" means "anti-imperialism."
That's because it's kinda hard to run games with a lot of social interaction (As opposed to a lot of fighting), and L5R is almost always more about social interactions than it is about fighting.
Also, it's hard to find people who know enough about it to actually run it.
It's also hard to find people who want to play it at all. Other than the misguided "I want to play in Japan" people, anyway, and they'll probably quit once they realize that it's not Japan.
So I was planning on having a big event/party/festival in an upcoming session, and as I was designing it; I came to the realization that I basically just making a very typical Western Medieval styled celebration sans jousting. So, how do i go about making it more.. Easterny/Japanese-y, to fit better with the game. Google is being, not so helpful at the moment
I wanted to have like games, and tournaments and all that but.. Yeah.
Paper lanterns glow
reflected in the still pond
and on fish's scales
like fresh moons hot from the kiln
where gods baked them like clay pots
Figures line the streets
bearing banners to invoke
The Fortunes' bounty
upon Clan, Family, friends
and on night-time revellers.
Food and song abound
and a panoply of light
from rockets cast up
to burst among the soft clouds
that cannot conceal the stars.
Boats on the river
roll to the sound of laughter
from every quarter
as the gentle wind carries
festival noises away
into the cool autumn night.
There, happy anon?
Evil Jesus (Colloquially known as Daigotsu) somehow managed to change the taint so that it only infected the willing in exchange for the Spider becoming a Great Clan.
This flew in the face of the metaphysics behind the taint and was really, really stupid all around. A literal god couldn't change a damn thing about the taint and then this chump comes along and can change everything about the taint on a whim.
>Evil Jesus (Colloquially known as Daigotsu) somehow managed to change the taint so that it only infected the willing in exchange for the Spider becoming a Great Clan.
No he didn't. He perfectly hid the symptoms of the taint in those that were unwilling, leading the empire to believe it was no longer spreading.
That's even worse, considering the nature of Jigoku as a shortsighted, narcissistic spirit realm.
Also, players called the "It's not really stopped, just hidden" within hours of that part of the story being revealed.
>A literal god couldn't change a damn thing about the taint
Said god also lost to some random mortals three times (the two 7 Thunders, and the 4 Winds). So I wouldn't measure difficulties by his power level.
Mantis Brawler has a 1k0 to control at first rank and some miscellaneous neat stuff. Bariqu Wrestler is a R2 alt rank for Moto or Shinjo bushi schools, it's got +1k1 to control and +2k0 more if you have more agility than your opponent.
Shadow Blades seems to work great with a ninjato and nets you those simple melee attacks a school rank earlier, but doesn't picking it kind of make the bayushi bushi rank 4 kind of redundant?
Removal of "Low" Skills.
Wait no, I'm saying that wrong; removal of skills that cause an automatic loss of Honor just for using them, and instead reinforcing that using it in specific ways is dishonorable.
It says right there in the Book of Five Rings, which before anyone even STARTS to whine about "it's not Japan" bullshit, is literally written in the back of the core book for recommended reading about the themes and setting, that stealth is an extremely useful tool for any warrior, especially when confronted by greater numbers.
So Stealth to preserve your life to report back to your lord or just not die? Not dishonorable. Especially in a system where 3 to 1 odds are really bad most days. That way it makes Stealth more like Knowledge: Maho or Knowledge: Shadowlands where it's impolite to know about it EXCEPT in circumstances where it's immediately relevant and useful, the same way you don't talk about gross fart jokes in the middle of court or whatever.
Well, duty to one's lord should outweigh the potential face loss anyway. People who know about how you ninja'd your way to deliver a critical message to your lord should actually praise you for doing it so thoroughly you were prepared to lose honour doing it.
Especially since if you had to use stealth chances were you were risking your ass against a numerically superior force.
Mechanically you loose Honor even when just hiding to not die.
I once had to penalize one of my players a few points of honor because he realized he would genuinely die if he fought this scouting party as fucked up as he already was, and he wasn't on duty to his lord at the time or anything. Wasn't even on his lord's lands for that matter. It occurred to me that this was NuTaint Retarded and I just gave the points back since he did NOT use the skill dishonorably or ignobly; he used it intelligently and with sound reasoning.
I know there's the whole "samurai honor" thing, but if you're actually gonna use samurai honor then either fucking get it right or DON'T suggest books in your own book that outright say you're doing it wrong, or just man up go the full "not Japan" route and call them "ChipchongKnights" or literally any Asian-esque sounding thing that has no inherent meaning involved.
Actually you bring up another good point, maybe an even more pertinent one.
I only started playing L5R when 4e came out, and I actually watched/read as many of those recommendations as I could (thank god for Hulu) because I was terrified of getting it wrong since my group had prior experience with a very good L5R GM.
What I learned ended up helping me quite a bit but also showed me that AEG's shit is doing that ALL wrong when it comes to a lot of rules about Honor and stuff because 98% of the stuff they recommend basically goes around contradicting everything that AEG's rules and setting says, even if you ignore all the directly historical bits and focus on the actions and story themselves.
So I would recommend either changing those recommendations or not reccommending them at all because they just make them look stupid if you watch or read them.
Stealth is already explicitly not dishonorable in circumstances like that.
The other Low skills are less so, but they also have a "Don't lose dishonor for certain uses as determined by GM" line.
>Charging ones army into battle without foreknowledge of an opponent's capabilities and weaknesses brought no glory and branded its leader as a coward
>When an enemy is entrenched and secure, he must be lured from his nest. Take him from his sanctuary and take him at the proper time
>A true samurai has only one judge of his honor, and that is himself. Decisions you make and how those decisions are carried out are a reflection of who you truly are. You cannot hide from yourself
This is all from Akodo's Leadership, an in-universe book. I think the intent is that you play pretty fucking fast and loose with honor and glory stuff. That said, I can see another pretty great result of having some skills ostensibly tank your honor: some of the schools specifically say there are skills they 'won't lose honor' from. It's an interesting way to look at it, where even your detractors AND yourself think it's fine to intimidate the shit out of some guy if you're a Yoritomo merchant.
Actually, according to 4th edition, using stealth to sneak around is never dishonorable.
Using it for ambushes (Small scale, not military-grade), shadowing, or hidden spellcasting is.
>The use of Low Skills generally results in loss of Honor, as per the Honor table found in the Book of Earth, although the GM can make exceptions when he judges the skill is being employed in an honorable fashion.
>You lose no Honor for using Stealth (Sneaking), although other Emphases do usually result in Honor loss as normal.
It's important to note that the game treats you as using an emphasis even if you don't actually have it, so anyone using Stealth to scout around doesn't lose honor. When you start following someone without them knowing, or getting ready to gank someone from the shadows is when you start losing honor.
>This is all from Akodo's Leadership, an in-universe book.
Then recommend that instead of stuff that says "this is bullshit, don't listen to it". I notice that they confuse Honor and Face a lot too, when Face was technically considerably much more important since it's how everyone SAW your Honor.
This is one of the things that is basically shown to be okay in the things they recommend you to watch or read. Fucking Musashi proceeds to give a personal example of when using stealth and ambush saved his life and goes on to repeat the usefulness of it.
Let me repeat; they can HAVE a made-up fantasy version of Honor if they want, I'm completely fine with that.
But don't fucking recommend something that outright says "but that's wrong you fucking retard" in the back of the book if you are; just remove that entire section. Also remove the GM's section on "Asian vs Western storytelling" in the back too because that doesn't hold water either, yet again in the examples they give.
If it's not Japan then be a man and own up to it; change the names of shit, don't use the real-life versions, don't use the same words, make up some of your own, grow some goddamn balls and make up your mind already. If even George Martin can get the basics of chivalry right then they can get the basics of Bushido and Face right; not a huge task to accomplish here.
Also can anyone tell me, is Shourido a thing? I mean, not the actual philosophy because that sounds made up, but does the word actually exist or make sends in Japanese?
>lso can anyone tell me, is Shourido a thing? I mean, not the actual philosophy because that sounds made up, but does the word actually exist or make sends in Japanese?
"Shourido" doesn't mean anything at all actually, that's complete nonsense as far as I can tell, but there's a similar concept called "Shurado", "the Way of Ashura", or perhaps more poetically "the Way of Carnage" (since Ashura's are mythological creatures of destruction) which is about seeking battle constantly, but this is not actually "counter" to Bushido and given Bushido's frequent heavy emphasis on honorable death in battle actually sort of compliments Bushido in many ways.
They could also have used the Lone Wolf and Cub thing, "Meifumado", the "Way of Hell" for Shourido, which is sorta odd that they didn't because if I recall correctly that term exists in-universe as the name of a play or book or something about falling to the Taint.
Shourido doesn't use such an obviously jigoku-esque name because it's supposed to be a temptation for samurai. Make it look like a reasonable alternative to bushido before pulling the cover off and tainting the fuck out of whoever was dumb enough to hang around with the Spider.
So they made up as something that's kinda sorta Wapanesey-sounding and pretended it meant something? Or did they genuinely think "Bushido" had no literal meaning like it was a first-person prounoun or something?
I'm new to this setting and stuff, but everything I hear about the Spider Clan makes them sound even more poorly conceived then half of their other basic mistakes and yet they loved them for years or whatever?
They made it up entirely. Which is fine, since the setting is fantasy first and they finally started running it as such. Unfortunately, they also went full retard.
And yes, the Spider are very poorly conceived. They became a pseudo-clan to standardize CCG mechanics (An okay justification) and they kept winning and getting more powerful from there because marketing execs thought it would help sales. They twisted the meanings of tournament prizes, completely ignored some tournament wins, and generally fucked up the "player driven" image in order to make the Spider more and more relevant and powerful. They alienated the old Horde players, they alienated everyone who should have won, and they even alienated some Spider players with the most recent event that made the Spider take over the Empire in an open display of Tainted power.
That all sounds very stupid.
Anyway, my complaints are more that as a new player their own suggestions misled and confused me, which is not a very good thing to do if you want new RPG players. Assuming that they aren't just trying to coast on players from the 90's and early 00's rather then attract new ones, in which case I guess the suggestions bit is just garnish at best.
>Which is fine, since the setting is fantasy first and they finally started running it as such.
Only as long as they present it as such too. They didn't, and never tried to. Then again it's mostly oldfags playing this game and wanting to play it as far as I've experienced; most people I know have never even heard of the CCG and just play MtG if they play CCG's at all.
Hida Pragmatist is pretty good
Also, Hida Bushi with the Crab Sumai Wrestler alternate rank. They get a bonus to control grapples (Extra if they have the Large advantage, and they get the Large advantage for free when they take the Alt rank) and do extra damage in grapples.
Nope. Here is the card that that picture was used for.
OTOH, the Brotherhood;
Bishamon's Grasp: free action grapples vs targets that have attacked you, ignoring stance restrictions
Way of the Earth: [Earth] damage per round in a grapple
The Body Is An Anvil: [Fire] damage for touching, and each attack made or received
Osano-Wo monks: +1k0 to any damage stemming from unarmed attacks
Temple of Persistence: spend Void for [Earth] rolled dice to attacks or contested rolls they did not initiate.
Hate to bring up a dead topic but the Lion are extremely tradition; their shugenja have their place in the back of their armies healing the hurt. Possibly also making sure there are no angry ghosts coming back to haunt victorious warriors or something as well.
A Matsu Shugenja would be placed in the back with the healers.
How would you make a Shiba Bushi an effective fighter, taking into account how all of it's School techniques work, assuming you have no shugenja to bodyguard?
Would you just rely on kata and skills and stuff?
I would rely on Void point blowout. Assuming rank 5, you could have the effect of 8-10 void points per fight, more if I have allies who use their void points, and even more if there's another Shiba around to bounce points back and forth with rank 3.
Was thinking of making an NPC who was a famous master swordsman but was a Shiba just to break tradition from clans who usually are, and didn't want him to be a paper tiger so to speak.
> Start reading up on L5r
> Really like what I see, come up with a character concept that seems really fun and cool
> Read more detailed stuff
> Turns out my concept is basically just Crab: The Crab.
Really feeling like sudoku is the best option right now
Someone mentioned that each Clan is really just an iconic gamer character archetype common in RPG's turned into an entire theme, and thus people tend to be drawn to different Clans when they get into it.
It's actually quite clever.
>Noble elegant socialite fencer with some surprisingly sturdy warriors, aka "Elves"
>Tough harass warriors who don't give a fuck and smash stuff and also have some berserker guys too, usually Dwarves but also tall humans.
>Stoic skilled warrior archetype who's sturdy and reliable and good front-liner, "the Boring Fighter Guy".
>Mysteroius and aloof but wise warriors of impressive skill
>Rough free-spirited wanderers
>Rough lawless ambitions pirate guys
>Honorless backstabby witty assassin guys
Go play D&D and watch for the overlap.
It's not always there, but you can still see it a lot, especially amongst players who started playing way back when.
The Crab guy will always play a hugs smashed guy, the Crane guy usually plays a masterful swordsman, etc.
>>Noble elegant socialite fencer with some surprisingly sturdy warriors, aka "Elves"
You clearly mean Crane.
Also, these are wrong in regards to a lot of the clan family stereotypes.
Yeah, yeah, nobody's happy to hear it.
How about you save time and just get over with the fact that you're not gonna convince me otherwise and I'm not gonna convince you otherwise?
I'm going to start naming families that are members of those clans, all of whom have their own individual stereotypes that don't match what you said.
I'm not going to list the vassal families, because that would take too long, but there's about 50 more that are named, and most of them don't match the stereotypes listed for their entire clan.
Man, that is a whole lot of words wasted on someone who isn't gonna be convinced.
I'm not taking about the details, because of COURSE the details are different just like the details of all the elves and dwarves are different in many settings even if the broad strokes were the same; I'm talking about the initial overlook of each of the Clans before you get into the game, how they were described to me back when I started playing the very first edition of the CCG and RPG.
I'm still not gonna convince you and you're still not gonna convince me; we're not important enough to each other to even give a fuck about the other's opinion. We're "anon" a faceless nobody to each other who we won't even remember we had this conversation with four days from now. If you don't like someone's opinion on an anonymous message board, then to bloody bad; you're gonna hear a lot of them while you're on here and people will just as equally not care that you disagree and nobody's gonna particulary care.
Something you heard in a quest thread a few days ago is not how they were described to you in the first editions of the CCG and RPG.
And it's still completely wrong. Preemptively declaring that you can't be convinced otherwise just means that your position is untenable.
You've got 9 examples (Give or take, if the Mirumoto and Togashi both count as mysterious and aloof mountain warrior guy). I've got at least 27 examples.
Also, that's a lot of words to defend a wrong opinion that you supposedly don't want to argue about.
Some people actually play in quests AND RPGs. It's not a binary choice, despite what some people would have you think.
Also, this definitely isn't the thread to be talking about the merits or lack thereof of quests.
>Preemptively declaring that you can't be convinced otherwise just means that your position is untenable.
Proving me right already, you're not convinced.
I mean, I guess you can try to convince me how I learned to play was different. That might work just this once for you because you're so special and stuff.
But I started playing the Crab on '04 because a friend told me Crab were the biggest warrior badasses of the setting and I like big warrior badasses.
Shit, I don't even think the Clans fitting into stereotypes is a BAD thing, I think it's clever and smart and sells something that otherwise might be hard to sell.
Also there's never been an L5R quest. When the fuck did that happen? It's a terrible idea; there's too many options for char creation and too much favoritism for certain clans to that even work for fuck's sake.
The Crab being the biggest warrior badasses of the setting only applies to the Hida. But you'd know this if you actually paid attention.
The Hiruma are sneaky little buggers, the Kuni are creepy magicians, the kaiu are engineers and smiths and boringly traditional when fighting, the Yasuki are jews who don't fight much at all, and the Toritaka (When part of the Crab) are closest to the Hiruma when they aren't being fantasy ghostbusters.
When I first played Hiruma were berserkers and scouts, so their warriors were badasses to me back when. And the Toritaka I'm not even sure had any cards or stats, but don't quote me on that because I've never been into Minor Clans. As soon as I saw they only got three techniques I was ignoring that shit.
....I don't see how that solves the problem, but whatever; quests belong on their own board anyway so they don't just clutter up /tg/. MLP is a cartoon, but they moved it off /co/ for the same reason right?
I just meant the kinda epic harasses who don't give a shit, you know? I always loved those characters and the Crab attracted me because of it, and the other two Crab players I know are the same way.
Quests are nowhere near that prevalent. There'd have to be over 60 of them at any given time, and even then, it'd be on the low end of what mlp did. And they'd need to be on a bunch of other boards at the same time.
This is still the wrong thread for this discussion though.
>the whole group is ronin
If that weren't the case, I'd suggest this;
>Founded by a zealous member of the Shiba family who swore to balk at nothing to defend the Isawa, the Sesai often recruit from skilled but failed yojimbo, convincing them they can still serve the clan if they are willing to use different methods.
>Rank 2: Anything For The Phoenix
>When on a battlefield, you gain +1k1 to all Stealth rolls and a Free Raise on all attack rolls made by surprise. When performing dishonorable acts on behalf of the Phoenix Clan, you lose half the normal amount of Honor (rounded up).
Start there, then ask your GM if you can take Kenburo's Way at rank 3 instead of rank 4.
That's what I meant by uncultured behaviour, but there is a difference in response to that vs drunken behaviour - you're better off if people think you were drunk. (or at least that they can agree you must have been drunk)
There's still repercussions and consequences, even for them.
Too many people think they can play as these clans and go around acting like a jackass and there'll be no repercussions, they treat them like the "I want to play L5R but don't actually LIKE L5R" clans.
That's not how the fucking game works, that's not how the setting works, and that's not how those clans work.
Of course there is, but once it's established that a samurai was drunk, lesser inappropriate actions are off the table for criticism, and anyone that wants to continue with that line of action has to find other excuses to snub them. If they need an excuse at all.
That was the longest, most word-wasting way to say you're a complete retard manchild who is unable to make an argument.
>it's just my shitty opinion therefore you must listen to it and not laugh at me for being a fucking retard
Using the word 'opinion' doesn't hand you a safety blanket from being thought of as a complete moron.
Someone's opinion is "the world is flat and society is controlled by reptile people who mind control humans using our microwave ovens"
You can say that is your opinion and "deal with it" and the worlds opinion will be that you're a 50 IQ sack of stupid.
That's an opinion you'll be facing for the rest of your life.
I think we already established he's a gigantic moron, yes. I also think you're arguing with a guy who's not on here anymore.
I'm almost POSITIVE you can.
I remember reading it in one of the 4e books....Emerald Empire I think? Does anyone know, it's going to drive me crazy until I find out an answer.
They'll still loose honor and face, obviously. Especially with other clans.
I think Crab otherwise might not care unless it affects their duties on the wall. Though usually Crab families seem a bit grim.
I bet they're sad drunks, actually,
Being drunk means you aren't held accountable for your actions. Mostly. Little things like being rude and breaking stuff gets you a slap on the wrist when drunk. Big things like killing someone isn't going to be excused though. If nothing else, someone (Probably a magistrate, but maybe a local high ranking samurai) will claim that you were sober just so they can get you for whatever you did.
>When a samurai begins to lose face and show public emotion, the Rokugani react with caution. If the samurai is causing only a minor disturbance and is not endangering others, his actions will be ignored. After all, if no one else acknowledges the loss of face, it is as though it never happened. Thus, while the night-time streets of most Rokugani cities are usually full of inebriated samurai making their way home, no one draws attention to their behavior.
They're usually boisterous drunks because stints on the wall itself have absolute and unflinching discipline. One week on duty, three days off. And while on duty, they're on 24/7. There is absolutely no room for anything other than the job at hand, whether that's patrolling, keeping watch, scouting, or just running drills.
So they get lots of pent up energy in the face of death, and then they get a few days to just fuck around. So they fuck around HARD, and it usually becomes a habit.
Important question; they have kabuki in Rokugan, I'm almost sure of it.
My query is if kabuki is considered "lowbrow" entertainment like it was during Edo or if it's a high art form already?
Depends who you ask, but it's generally acceptable. Some snobby samurai consider it to be commoner trash, but it's generally accepted as a real art form with plenty of merits, alongside noh plays.
There's also the puppet theatre thing, which is kind of on a similar level to kabuki, and the Crab have their own super-lowbrow "Draw-lot play" form of kabuki that they use on the wall to fight boredom during slow periods.
Actually, in addition to this I remember saying that among Crab, Noh plays are considered totally unentertaining, and the phrase "it's a Noh play" is Crab slang for something being boring.
I'm writing a story to help myself get into character a bit for my new PC, a Bayushi bushi. I've read a lot about the Scorpion but what are their masks typically made of? And in a more general question, would it be odd for a samurai in armor to carry some kind of satchel? My character is in their armor in this scene and they'll be out in the city doing some things, so a bag would be convenient.
Rigid masks mostly likely would be made of wood or metal and then treated based on the intended look; lacquered, varnished, left plain... Although woven straw is also a possibility.
Non-rigid masks would be made of cloth or lace, depending on how much they were intended to hide or reveal.
Scorpion masks are very individualistic, so it really depends on the scorpion in question. Can you describe your Bayushi's mask?
>And in a more general question, would it be odd for a samurai in armor to carry some kind of satchel?
Not at all. It's not like they had pockets in armor or anything.
Actually, he're a fun (but weird) historical fact that isn't relevant to Rokugan but is a cool bit of period knowledge; since Edo Period law said men who weren't if the samurai class couldn't carry weapons of a specific length through their obi and that women couldn't carry weapons of specific length at ALL, women who wanted to carry a sword for self-defense purposes (this was uncommon but not unheard of, especially if you had to travel or lived in a rural area) carried it in this weird back that actually sort of resembled a modern purse called a toju that was usually made out of leather of some kind.
So if a Japanese woman in the 17th and 18th centuries carried a purse with her then there was probably a sword in it.
No the Japanese used leather as much as anyone. In fact if you've seen any pictures of actual historical Japanese armor chances were it had a leather backing over the silk the samurai wore underneath to buffer it from impacts and reduce bruising and the like.
What Japan had a taboo against was leatherWORKERS because their job was unclean and messy. Once leather was treated and cleaned and prepared it wasn't unclean anymore because all the gross stuff had been taken care of already. They didn't use it much in articles of clothing, but practical uses of leather like sturdy carrying bags and cushioning for armor was totally done.
Scorpion have LOTS of different mask types, but the different families have "tendecies" when it comes to masks.
The Bayushi often have more then one type of mask they own, which they wear to affect specific emotions (a mempo if they want to appear menacing, a domino-mask thing if they want to look handsome, etc).
Shosuro and Soshi tend to wear very boring masks that are highly functional and make them sort of blend into the background, which let's them be better yojimbo and shinobi or in the case of the Soshi helps people ignore them in general.
Yogo (since they try to associate with people as little as possible) don't really care what anyone else thinks about their masks and so they wear masks that are aesthetically pleasing to themselves.
It's literally this, except with eye holes outlined in black.
I considered Breath of Wind Style for that initiative but I then found the Strength of the Scorpion one in the Great Clans book that looked way better because those feints.
I had an idea for a mask that would be made of thick wood and carved like a face with an open mouth, and behind the mouth there would be a hollow compartment lined with metal with an narrow opening to the lips and one to the insode of the mask, in front of the wearer's mouth, and there would be a metal fine metal mesh grill over each opening. The mouth on the mask would be offset slightly upward from the wearer's mouth, so that the opening leading to the mouth leads down, and the opening leading to the front of the mask leads up.
Before putting the mask on the wearer would open the grill on the inside, load up the compartment with incense, and then set it smouldering. When the mask was on, the smoke from the incense would travel up the high opening to escape from the mouth of the mask ins a steady trickle, and by blowing into the low opening, the wearer could fan the smouldering incense and blow a puff of smoke out at whatever was in front of him.
Yeah that's what I assumed too.
And yeah I said it would have eyeholes outlined in black, but I just learned that apparently the Chinese had "sunglasses" made from smoky quartz in the 12th century. Would it possible for the Rokugani to do this? They could cut the pieces in the shape of the eyes and glue them in, probably.
In theory; they have all the minerals and metals we do in real life, though obsidian, jade, and crystal (vague on what kind of crystal) all don't really follow the same rules and have some kinda weird magical crap around them.
This would be a pretty fancy mask though; finding Quartz crystal the right color wnd size would be pricy and tje process of cutting and fitting it would be expensive.
Not to say that this means it's impossible; Bayushi like fancy masks.
>ancient oriental sunglasses
Fuck yeah, my next character is locked in.
It's Giichi from Blade of the Immortal.
Probably one of the best samurai manga ever made, and maybe one of exactly two that could be used for good L5R inspiration since most others use pretty bizarre and out there fighting involving super-sonic demon-killing flaming sword attacks in their fight scenes while BotI uses clever tactics, terrain, and DOESN'T normally involve characters routinely fighting more then ten times their number and winning, instead just exhibiting mildly fantastic feats of strength and endurance.
>Probably one of the best samurai manga ever made, and maybe one of exactly two
I'd rank Vagabond above it easily, and both Lone Wolf and Cub and Samurai Executioner as well. Blade of the Immortal is pretty good, but it does have it's weaknesses, especially when the story really starts to fray and splinter.
Vagabond is the one I placed above it.
I totally forgot LWaC and SE, but I basically consider those the same manga anyway since they deal with the exact same themes and are by the same writer and artist.
I also try not to compare brilliant masterworks like Lone Wolf and Cub to newer stuff; it's like compared Dune to... I dunno, some shitty completely forgotten piece of scifi work.
One is a CLASSIC, and the other is newer stuff which is good or bad largely dependent upon taste rather than something most folks who know of it universally agree is an excellent piece of work even if they don't like it personally.
Samura's bizarre assortment of weapons in Immortal always makes me laugh though, especially when he admits he has no idea what the hell some of them are even supposed to be.
Though Vagabond really starts to stray from the samurai themes as it goes on, probably because it's more about a guy's factionalized life story then anything samurai-specific.
Blade still focused on the complex issue of a country with a warrior class that was in decline but had many who refused to change, as well as the flaws in Bushido as a code and how pointless revenge feuds don't actually resolve problems at all, they just extend them down generations and leave your kids and grandkids to deal with the consequences of what you started.
Which is a lesson the Kakita and Matsu apparently never had to learn.
I think one of Blade's strong points is how most of the "villain" groups get a lot of characterization; they're nominally the opponents to the main characters, but even as they do horrible things you see that it's not all their is to them and that many of them regret that they had to/felt the need to do them at all.
With the exception of Shira of course.
This guy is one of the most disturbingly psychopathic characters I've ever read about, sheesh.
>maybe one of exactly two that could be used for good L5R inspiration
This anon knows the shit. BotI is all about Rokugan: edgy drama (that is also pointless and rather forced) + endless expositions. People throw shit into the fan just because they think it makes them deep and badass, and when it doesn't work, they go emo. They are also unable to tell their heads apart from their asses and their reasoning is always "MUH FEELZ".
That''s Rokugan at its finest right there.