>Help, I have no idea how to deal with all of this information and some of it is out of date
Pandora uploaded all her character art to Imgur, and provided a zip.
(If you could start uploading them to urbfan.booru.com that'd be swell)
Someone linked Dreams of Avarice
And someone else linked the Demon Storyteller's Guide
And another Hurt Locker preview
>We have a booru, add things to it! (Be sure to tag well)
>Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter
>The Onyx Path Official Website
>Drive-Thru RPG, for all your legally-obtained book needs
>A Mega bin, for your less legally-obtained book needs
>The Chronicles of Darkness Core Book(Which isn't in the Mega link)
>Bunch of dumb tumblrs that are filled with WoD jokes
What's the source on that? I know there's possible Hunter crossover depending on whether or not Monica's cool with Dave using Cherion. Honestly I'm down with Deviant serving as another kind of crossover game.
Well, I mean any game can be a good crossover game but, honestly if anyone's going to be hanging out with other supernaturals, Deviants would probably have pretty good reasons to.
Perhaps. As I see it, Beast had issues trying to do crossover and it had several "assets" going for it in that direction but ultimately fell flat. After the whole debacle with Beast, I sincerely doubt that they're going to try to make another crossover-centric line, at least not for a very long time.
What? No. It's about being someone who was experimented on by corporations and escaped. Think Akira or Dark Angel or Prototype or even Doctor Manhattan. It's going to be mostly low power, but with the potential for lots of damage.
There's like no indication that Deviant will be crossover related, and I don't think Dave has ever confirmed or even implied that Cheiron might be a source of Deviants.
David Bowie died. So if you're a drinker, pour one out for our favourite True Fae.
Have the title track of his last album, released just a few days ago. It's got some pretty World of Darknessy visuals.
He was also a Vampire.
Wow, no, never mind. I take that back. They're not Meseeks who have the job, "Catch this guy." They're not even *that* interesting.
I mean, I get that this is a draft and all, just a glimpse, but I do not see myself using Huntsmen as they're described here. Which worries me, since they're the Strix or the Idigam of the Changeling book, likely to have a large section and many themes devoted to them.
Are they still trying to turn Changeling: The Lost into a game about empowerment, or whatever that retarded shit was? There was exactly one World of Darkness game which ever handled the subject of abuse and recovery in a tasteful, thoughtful manner. Please, please tell me they've thought better than to try to apply it some of their heavy-handed Beast-type changes in order to make it "more politically correct". They wouldn't even achieve that.
I'm getting some really mixed messages here.
The description we got once is that it's intended to be pretty low-powered with the capability of topping out at some pretty crazy shit on the high end. Which is fitting with the inspirations.
LIFE IS PAIN FOR A MESEEKS JERRY!
I hate that I made that image and like six others the day before the name change.
Also, hey, it's hard to think of low powered versions of David Cronenberg superhero shit. Dark Angel, Kyle XY, John Doe. But with the Videodrome hand gun.
I'm curious what game you think handled that well, because the only one I can think of is Changeling: the Lost.
I don't even understand why that would be a bad thing. My least favourite part of Changeling is the whole "stages of grief minus acceptance" bullshit. I don't want to play a game where my whole life is based around how I deal with my abusive ex, but I'm no allowed to actually GET PASSED IT.
... have many people even used the Strix or Idigam?
why is big boss so fucking attractive i mean god damn 10/10 genes
david said he hates people who play rape abuse victim in changeling, and frankly, he's right. changeling didn't handle abuse and recovery tastefully, at least not in actual play.
Because when that guy says "empowerment" he doesn't mean getting past the fact that you were kidnapped by the fae. He doesn't even mean empowerment in the way that you now gain your Seeming by how you escaped.
When he complains that Changeling might be about empowerment, he's worried it's going to be about Social Justice.
>I'm curious what game you think handled that well, because the only one I can think of is Changeling: the Lost.
That's precisely my point. And according to the Onyx Path blog (can't remember when the post was, several months ago. One of the few times they talked about Lost 2E back then) they mentioned messing with the themes because it might trigger someone.
Or you can just move on, because who gives a shit? If Beast isn't your thing because of the clumsy themes and muddled concepts, ignore it. I am. God knows I ignored the World of Darkness all throughout the 90's, because it had nothing I wanted in it.
>Dark Angel, Kyle XY, John Doe
Those guys are all pretty low powered and have no capacity for high end shit at all. I don't know about Kyle, but Jessica Alba was just a secret agent type while John Doe's only power was selective color-blindness. How that ties in with Akira, who becomes a psychic literal god at the end of the manga (unless Dave is a pleb who only saw the movie, which wasn't even the full story) I don't know.
He's bringing it up because there is a fear that Changeling will follow the same pattern, which is perfectly legitimate considering that they are from the same company and share writers between them.
All I care is that The Cheiron Group might be one of the monolithic corporations in it and I freakin' love Cheiron. I love all the corporations-in-the-know like Cheiron, The Deva Corporation, and Last Dynasty International.
The Huntsman spoilers have again made me realize that Mages seem to have the best, or definitely "least worst," default basic existence in the entire CofD among the major splats.
Vampires are continually hunted by the nearly invincible strix, changelings whole lives revolve around being hunted and returned to an eternity of abuse, and werewolves also endure continual challenges and hunts as both predator and prey, with the idigam just most unstoppable of their enemies.
The other splats' lives certainly are not much better. Mummies are eternal slaves and/or far worse, Demons are totally inhuman and their whole existence is defined by being hunted by powerful and unrelenting angels of the GM, Prometheans suffer and cause disquiet and wastelands and are now hunted by alchemists, etc.
Mages certainly have their fair share of potential adversaries and danger, but they are not really "hunted" in any meaningful capacity. If they exercise even a small modicum of prudence, they can easily use their powers to live a very comfortable and relatively safe life. Of course, they additionally have the benefit of still being and fully enjoying life as a real human, without fear of such things as killing all their friends and loved ones with an unexpected frenzy or death rage, or finding you arcadian clone sleeping with your wife and living your life as if you never left.
Apart from any discussions about which splat is the most powerful or who would win in a white room battle, mages are the only splat whose very existence is not just totally and unsparingly depressing.
The problem I always associated with Mage is that danger will always find them, the weird will find a way to influence (and ultimately destroy) a Mage.
From mad lineages to the other political faction who is hunting you because you don't FOLLOW THEIR BELIEFS TO THE EXACT WORD.
You're constantly being offered deals for more power by beings who are WAY out of your league, or being told that you are to weak by other people who are WAY out of your league.
And then what of your life, what will these outside forces who are drawn to you do to your friends and family? Use them for fun, kill them, or just torture them unless you accept some crazy ass deal to stop an unkillable wizard from destroying reality.
You are never hunted as a mage, you wander into a hunt which is looking for something to kill
>The Huntsman spoilers have again made me realize that Mages seem to have the best, or definitely "least worst," default basic existence in the entire CofD among the major splats.
That's... always how it's been. Their whole thing is that they're put between the boring mundane average soulcrushing safety of regular life and the beautiful enlightened and incredibly dangerous and potentially-literally-soul-destroying world of the Supernal.
Although Vampires aren't really continually hunted by Strix. There are likely far more Vampires than Strix, and Vampires have to deal with other Vampires much more often. Vampires kind of have to deal with the same "mediocrity or danger" of the Mages, but they're forced out of safety by the need to feed and keep from slipping to monsterdom. Mages on the other hand are only encouraged to leave safety by the knowledge that their entire lives are hollow, depressing Lies crafted to imprison their souls in a cage of Flesh and Want.
I mean, I agree that Mages are the ones who could most easily say "fuck all that shit" to their own little supernatural world, but their lives are depressing in the way that knowledge encourages depression.
Sin-eaters don't have it overly bad, I suppose. From what I understand, for the most part they're just hassled by dead guys at all hours of the day, and those aren't even necessarily all hostile.
No, but imagine having ghosts wailing at you 24/7 for help saving their long dead children or seeking vengeance on people they think caused their death 50 years before that person was born.
Sin-eaters are forced to act because if they don't then it'll turn into an insomniac cycle of suicide and the fed up Geist reviving you forever
I don't really have any expertise with or significant recall about Geist. It's ancient by nWOD/CofD standards, its rules were a mess, and few books were released.
Besides the fact they're dead and sharing their lives with a ghostly parasite, are they hunted or continually endangered in any way?
You can just ignore them with a Plasm and a willpower, if I remember right. You could pretty much play a Sin-Eater and never ever have to interact with ghosts if you wanted. It is entirely possible to just take the Bargain and then do nothing, and there's no real carrot/stick to go make you do things, besides "Your ST describes all these ghosts, and isn't that spooky?"
Surely the parasite ghost thingy latched onto your soul has some way to force you to act, since it went to the effort of saving you from death?
Can it possess you if you get to complacent?
The whole shtick of Geist: The Sin-Eaters is that it flips the World of Darkness on its head by presenting a splat which by and large treats its powers as an awesome thing and their life as a big Halloween party, rather than moping about them. Of course they have it good. Sugared skulls, New Orleans funerals, Carpe Diem, Drink For Tomorrow We Die, etc.
Mages may certainly lead dangerous and complicated lives, particularly in pursuit of greater power, as well as suffer from knowing the world as we know it is all a Lie, but they are still generally able to lead a safe and comfortable (and human!) life on their own terms if they so choose. No other splat really has anything close to such an option.
Alpha is this year but you need to buy the 60$ pack
The pack includes:
>access to Alpha,Beta and Early Access (week before launch)
>In-Game Personal Apartments
"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".
Isn't that only if they use magic?
Sin-eaters basically only have to do shit because it's effort to ignore ghosts. It's not actually MEANINGFUL effort, but still. Rolling Res + Comp over and over again has to get tiring in-character.
>has some way to force you to act
You'd think so, but no. Mechanics to encourage certain modes of play is insane to certain developers.
To be fair, a lot of Geist is super fucked up spooky shit and depressing. Also, Mages treat their powers as awesome and so do several vampire groups and a Changeling group.
Nope. It doesn't really care about you going out to do ghost shit, either. Like, it'd really like you to experience things that its obsessed with, like maybe shoot some guns or drink a load of liquor, but there's nothing to really make you do that.
People always fret that the optimal game state for Demons is just staying home, but at least they have encroaching Infrastructure and constant hunting. Sin-Eaters can just stay home and the worst that happens is your Geist might cut the Bargain (not that there's any rules or precedence for that, but hey it's something).
>"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".
A writer who has catastrophically fucked up once may do so again. In fact, in the case of writers we've never seen NOT catastrophically fuck up, this is the most reasonable thing to assume.
>Also Mages don't need Mana to survive, whereas Vampires have to hunt or they die
Mages can even create mana on their own (pattern scouring), to say nothing of its easy access with moderate levels of Prime. They indeed have one of the easier, safer, and less 'evil" fuel sources, although changeling glamour is also very easy to acquire and doesn't hurt anyone.
>"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".
He had a big hand in Demon, and while that is good in some ways many systems such as Pacts are half-cooked and require houseruling to hell and back to work properly.
>The whole shtick of Geist: The Sin-Eaters is that it flips the World of Darkness on its head by presenting a splat which by and large treats its powers as an awesome thing and their life as a big Halloween party, rather than moping about them. Of course they have it good. Sugared skulls, New Orleans funerals, Carpe Diem, Drink For Tomorrow We Die, etc.
Is there any wonder Geist was a poor seller and had few supplements?
>although changeling glamour is also very easy to acquire and doesn't hurt anyone.
But Changelings have the Demon problem that there very much are things out of your league after you and anyone you interact with could be working for them
That's all fine and dandy, but I'm still confused about what Deviant is really about. Dave has gone on here before to clarify the inspirations but they all still show widely different power scales. Doc Manhattan and the guys in Akira weren't even experimented on until after they got their powers.
Everything that I know does make it sound like its just the Cheiron Group getting its own splat.
>"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".
Except no one is saying that. People are bringing up Beast because the Changeling spoilers already (in some people's eyes) are heading in that direction. I don't know if you're will fully ignorant at this point or just plain retarded. Beast being bad fuels the fears that Changeling will be bad too, but David's spoilers have already soured people's opinions on it independent of Beast.
>In 2e this might not be entirely true anymore. Their Nimbus fucks up the places and people they have sympathetic connections with and attracts the supernatural.
Dave indicated the Nimbus effects were largely setting and narrative shtick until very high levels of Gnosis when it might become an minor annoyance or inconvenience. I believe the effects can also be mitigated with Prime spells.
>But Changelings have the Demon problem that there very much are things out of your league after you and anyone you interact with could be working for them
I agree, and hence my original post about how the only splat whose life doesn't inherently suck and may end prematurely without warning are mages.
This is one of the reasons I'm trying to give Sin-eaters some sort of Frenzy style mechanic where their Geist can "take over", as well as an Aspiration/Anchor that gives Beats and Willpower for doing what the Geist wants.
Still trying to think of ways to actually create the Geist, though. I want it to have it's own Traits, but those Traits are mostly going to be Anchors and maybe a power or bonus. I don't really know how to structure that, though, since it's hard to think of iconic ghost archetypes that would fit into the five Thresholds. I mean, thinking of Prey especially is difficult.
I'm thinking a Geist should be:
Passion (a Vice/Virtue equivalent that restores Willpower and Plasm)
Blessing (something on par with a Kith Blessing, basically replacing the Key Skill)
Maybe I shouldn't bother with making templates with names or anything, just have a list of options.
Honestly I think Matt's hand is more obvious in the powers, which are wildly disproportionate and have that "balance is a myth" feel, with some options being better in more situations than others.
Either way, that's Matt, not David.
See, if this was most any other people talking about making this a game about "empowerment", than in context, I wouldn't be worried too much. When you've got so many people on the team who've produced before such classics as "internet bullies must die horribly" and "fight for your God-given right to be called by whatever pronoun you invent today", than in the context of Changeling: The Lost... I'm worried.
>People are bringing up Beast because the Changeling spoilers already (in some people's eyes) are heading in that direction. I don't know if you're will fully ignorant at this point or just plain retarded.
No, they aren't. I'm not being willfully ignorant. If anything, you are. You're seeing something that isn't there and worrying that White Wolf will be too social justicey. Which is like going on Tumblr and complaining that SuperWhoLock is dumb.
Honestly, I hate Changeling when it's treated like Demon. Changelings should wake up in a cold sweat worried their Keeper will grab them again, but that shouldn't be an actual thing that's likely to happen. It's dumb and limiting and holy fuck I fucking hate that battered spouse constantly hiding bullshit. I wanna be a fucking magical faerie who's personality isn't completely informed by "my ex was abusive and controlling".
I think there was some reflection back on it which mentioned they've made its themes too tight. There just wasn't all that much left to write supplements ABOUT. Yes, you could try and start scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas to make a sourcebook for every single Threshold, Key and interesting city, but ultimately, the core book and Book of The Dead really just sort of covered everything that there WAS to Geist. It was a super-duper focused game, even more so than Promethean. It shouldn't have been considered a main gameline in the first place.
>Mages certainly have their fair share of potential adversaries and danger, but they are not really "hunted" in any meaningful capacity.
Except they kind of are. Banishers and shit aside, mages are aware of everything, which consequently means they are a target for everything too. Werewolves don't have to deal with ghosts, vampires don't have to deal with spirits, but mages do and are likely to get hurt for it. And then there are the Seers. They don't organize hunting parties but they do try to subvert and destroy a mage's life. Its probably even worse because you'll never know when that Seer will figure out your identity and use their profane urim to make your wife bite out her tongue.
The Lie is ever present as well and once a Mage sees past it, they can't unsee it. Imagine having the They Live glasses on 24/7 with no way to take them off. I remember one of the fictions about a Seer who realizes just how mindless and predictable people actually are and becoming completely cut off from humanity because he knows everyone is playing out the roles the Exarchs crafted for them.
Changelings aren't hunted after they kill their fetch?
Werewolves very existence is the hunt, and vampires are inherently territorial and competitive with one another and need to consume human blood to survive. This is without the complications of things like death rages and the beast.
Could werewolves and vampires strive to live a life that sucks a little bit less. Sure. It's exceedingly difficult, they'll almost certainly fail in short order, and their better existence is a bad day for your average mage, at least from a comfort and safety perspective.
Even without the eternal arguments about whether mages have the most powerful ability set, they are they only splat that someone who isn't certifiably suicidal or a psychopath in real life should ever want to be.
Just to clarify; I don't care if people play rape victims in Changeling. It's a valid thing to have occurred with a character, and it's a valid metaphor.
My problem really comes with defining characters by their abuse. That, to me, is a problem because it's defining your character by what happened to him, not what he's doing. And to me, roleplaying/storytelling games are about what you do. In my experience, it leads to really dry, often dissonant play, even though it sounds really cool during character creation.
> I wanna be a fucking magical faerie who's personality isn't completely informed by "my ex was abusive and controlling".
Changeling the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition is in its last week on Kickstarter.
>mages are aware of everything, which consequently means they are a target for everything too. Werewolves don't have to deal with ghosts, vampires don't have to deal with spirits, but mages do and are likely to get hurt for it.
They're aware of it, but Unseen Sense is a 1 way street. So as long as their mentor taught them to poker face they'll be fine.
>they are they only splat that someone who isn't certifiably suicidal or a psychopath in real life should ever want to be.
Which is funny because that's what a lot of mages become when they Awaken.
Where did they ever say that? There's plenty you could do with Geist. For instance, some kind of Goddamned focus.
Mages are rarely hunted by those things because Mages don't HAVE to poke their nose into everything. They just WANT to because reality is a Lie and they want out.
Even if your character's abuse is their defining aspect (and as a Changeling it really always is). The problem is that people play Changelings as never being able to grow from that. They're ALWAYS in abuse mode and there's no personal growth and getting over it.
>No, they aren't. I'm not being willfully ignorant. If anything, you are. You're seeing something that isn't there and worrying that White Wolf will be too social justicey. Which is like going on Tumblr and complaining that SuperWhoLock is dumb.
Whether you agree with their interpretation of the spoilers or not, you are being willfully ignorant if you don't think there isn't a basis for their concern. Beast adds to it but the spoilers for Changeling are what started it.
If anything, your angry and emotional response to the possibility of things being different from your world view makes you just as bad as the people who see the SJW boogeyman every where they look.
>Even if your character's abuse is their defining aspect (and as a Changeling it really always is). The problem is that people play Changelings as never being able to grow from that. They're ALWAYS in abuse mode and there's no personal growth and getting over it.
Yes. In my experience, it's a lot like an 80s-era television show. People avoid "the premise threat". In the case of Changeling, moving on and having a fucking life is the premise threat for them. And to me, that gets very old, very quick.
As an abuse survivor, the time I spent getting over it was rough. It was maybe interesting in the sense of a case study or something. My life really got started once I was able to move on. That situation informed my later life, and that's certainly interesting and worth talking about. But I wouldn't want to play someone stuck in that before-time.
Is mass appeal worth diluting a well-loved game's central theme?
God knows how many abuse survivors I know - my boyfriend chief among them - held Changeling so dear because it dealt with what they experienced. Why throw away something so compelling, that reached so many people?
I never claimed that mages didn't have potentially significant adversaries or their lives were always rosy. That's certainly not the case. However, although they may interact with virtually anything with a their potential power set, and actually may want to do so to further increase their own abilities, the setting doesn't really define them as being "hunted," no less by beings with powers far in excess of their own. Life and death danger is usually a choice for mages most of the time.
Moreover, all splats suffer from hunters or recurring antagonists from their own communities like Banishers and Seers. However, these groups by default are no more ubiquitous or dangerous than other splat's equivalents.
In light of the broad range of mage abilities they could potentially also have the broadest (and largest) amount of enemies. Nevertheless, their very existence is not inherently precarious (and they still get to be human and powerful)
I would also add that the very little we know about Deviant indicates their existence to be on par with Changelings and Demons. Turned into a monster against their will and hunted by the groups that created them for purposes of exploitation.
>Whether you agree with their interpretation of the spoilers or not, you are being willfully ignorant if you don't think there isn't a basis for their concern. Beast adds to it but the spoilers for Changeling are what started it.
Yeah. I dunno. I'm biased. But like, I'm a pretty firm social justice type. But my work in Changeling isn't about social justice. I don't know who thinks I was talking about changing anything because of "triggering" or some other bullshit like that. But that's stupid. Changeling's a great game that deals with sensitive topics. In the intro, I'll put a content note, talking about how the book deals with sensitive topics. Then, I'll deal with sensitive topics. I don't think my readers are unable to handle anything. The very idea of "trigger warnings" isn't to change material or erase it; it's to tell people up front, "Expect to deal with X, Y, and Z in this material".
This isn't a book that'll have trigger warnings in it. This isn't a book I'm going to self-censor because I think a reader can't handle it. And if anyone thinks that's the case, they're wrong.
My interest is in making the best possible experiences at the table, and presenting material in the best ways I can do that.
>held Changeling so dear because it dealt with what they experienced.
But it didn't. He literally just said "it didn't deal with that, it just said it did". The game didn't actually do anything other than make lip service to that as a theme.
Like, there are no mechanics to that. If you change all the fluff to be more like Changeling: the Dreaming, you can. It's not like VtR2e's Humanity, which strongly encourages a certain type of play and reinforces the themes.
Hell, I know plenty of people who played characters that weren't abuse survivors. I've seen people try to be subversive and played characters who just walked out of Arcadia.
He's not throwing it away, he's doing what every other 2e game does and making the game actually work towards the themes it wants to.
Anon, the guy in charge of Promethean did Beast.
>As an abuse survivor
>Do you really need to keep saying that? This isn't tumblr.
It's not like David is sharing any personal details, and it's relevant because its informing his choices for the direction of Changeling 2e.
>The very idea of "trigger warnings" isn't to change material or erase it; it's to tell people up front, "Expect to deal with X, Y, and Z in this material".
It bothers me that people don't understand this. I tend to link this when it comes up:
But I also just like an excuse to link Idea Channel.
It's the "not sharing personal details" part that makes it come off as superfluous.
>>[Mages] are they only splat that someone who isn't certifiably suicidal or a psychopath in real life should ever want to be.
>Which is funny because that's what a lot of mages become when they Awaken.
Your comment is insightful, ironic, and most importantly, totally accurate. Well done.
Things from the lower depths actively hung down mana, though, to fulfill their empty existences. Not to mention mages are naturally drawn to mysteries, addicted even, and through that comes trouble. And lots of it.
>But I also just like an excuse to link Idea Channel.
I mostly say it because there's this odd meme that I don't care about abuse survivors' experiences when I say I'm interested in seeing characters that can grow past their abuse, and who aren't defined by their abuse.
It's a topic that's important to me. It's one of the reasons I was so passionate about pursuing Changeling development. And I want to explore more kinds of survivor experiences than people who can't get on with their lives.
Those are also rare.
And isn't this all about how Mages can, if they choose, ignore all their template stuff and live happy lives? Mages don't have any supernatural compulsion or need to go hunt down mysteries. They can be content without doing so.
>I do not see a problem with not trying to endlessly wallow in what happened.
I couldn't agree more. In fact, it reminds me of WW from the 1990's, and I'm glad they moved on. I certainly did.
If you can ignore the scratching on the back of your mind that your Unseen Sense provides.
As well as dealing with the effects of your nimbus (in 2e).
It would take a very certain type of person to choose to completely ignore the kind of cosmic revelation that Awakening provides, and completely go about their normal, mundane life.
You'd have to applaud the Exarchs in such a situation, their program worked wonderfully.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I THINK I might know what you're talking about. But if I'm correct, then someone must have talked about a conversation that happened in our private development discussions, and had just about zero influence on the final product.
>And isn't this all about how Mages can, if they choose, ignore all their template stuff and live happy lives? Mages don't have any supernatural compulsion or need to go hunt down mysteries. They can be content without doing so.
All true, and mages can still use their powers to ensure a very comfortable existence without significant repercussion, social, physical or supernatural.
The Lower Depths have also always been a very minor, albeit interesting, component of the CofD, and their denizens largely deal with humans (Inferno), vampires (strix), and mummies (Duat). The default setting does not indicate any specific antagonism between things from the LD and mages, and if mages don't summons such creatures, which has little inherent benefit, they could easily be ignored.
It's not necessarily that they evr would, but theat they can.
A Vampire must hunt. A Werewolf must hunt.
A Demon must hide. Changeling must hide. A Promethean must hide.
A Mummy must act. A Hunter must act.
A Mage must do nothing, unless he wants to.
>You mean no supplements?
Geist had Book of the Dead as a supplement, which was also a crossover text. I bought it because it was great for mage.
DaveB hinted that he had ideas for a Geist 2e. Until Deviant was announced, I thought Geist would be the next big release with him as developer. I'm now curious if G 2e is still planned, and who would want the lead the project.
Mages must hide as well man, both Banishers and Seers aren't too fond of other Mages.
The former just want to kill you.
The latter may want to enslave you.
Plus the Pentacle isn't exactly full of saints.
You don't HAVE to investigate. And chances are if you're just doing your day job, you won't even have cause to investigate. We don't even know just what the Nimbus effects are, but from the sound of it they're minor fluff, but nothing even mechanical.
Also, keep in mind that all of us are shitposting on 4chan and refreshing Youtube/Reddit/Facebook/Imgur/[Website] instead of going out and exploring any of the wholly mundane but nonetheless exciting mysteries that we encounter every day. All a Mage needs to ignore the Supernal is laziness.
Don't get me wrong. A Mage is very unlikely to not do Mage things. Even >>44706568 talks about Mages using their powers to make their lives more comfortable. I'm saying that, much like Geist, a Mage can COMPLETELY IGNORE their template. It's mechanically possible. They don't suffer anger issues or spirits or even ghosts pestering them. They don't need to feed. They have no incentive to use magic other than the fact that NOT using semiphenomenal cosmic power is really difficult. NOT exploring the way that reality is a Lie and your soul is trapped within a prison of material desire is difficult. Not because there's a mechanical penalty, but because DOING those things is much easier than living a normal life, and everything spirals out of control and you're wrapped up in the horror shit.
And a mage that ignores their template isn't going to be a blip on either of their radars.
Book of the Dead is like Slasher. It's technically a blue book supplement that's just very useful for a specific gameline.
>One of your freelancers has been saying that Changeling 2e isn't about abuse, but more generalized trauma.
Gah. I'll have to figure that out and rein it in a little.
I knew one of my former freelancers was.
So yeah. This gets to be a problem with open development. It's a unique issue you don't get when everything's tight lipped.
>You don't HAVE to investigate. And chances are if you're just doing your day job, you won't even have cause to investigate. We don't even know just what the Nimbus effects are, but from the sound of it they're minor fluff, but nothing even mechanical.
Geist isn't out of the question. We're still discussing it. It's contingent on a few things.
I can't tell you who is on the books to develop currently, because it's not set in stone yet. However, I will say I'm super fucking excited, because the one time I worked for this developer was one of the most fun times I've had working on a game, and the inspirations they're listing so far are fucking keen. If it all goes that way, Geist 2e will be phenomenal.
Again, no one has said or implied mages don't have recurring adversaries. All spalts also have internal antagonists.
However, Seers don't generally go around hunting Pentacle mages. It's dangerous and unproductive unless they're interfering with something important and they're ordered to do so from their masters. The Seers are definitely not like the Technocracy of Ascension.
Banishers are also a minor setting piece. All supernatural being have some hunters (or Hunters), but they're not a ubiquitous threat and rarely are more powerful than trained mages from the Orders.
The Pentacle indeed includes many assholes. Nevertheless, Pentacle mages are not in the habit of killing one another without obvious reason or provocation.
>Geist isn't out of the question. We're still discussing it. It's contingent on a few things.
Also, if Geist was greenlit, how soon would it even be out? I mean, I'm trying to make a 2e version of Geist because 2019 is a long time to wait.
But then again I'm also slow and jump from one project to the next, so my version would probably be out by 2020.
If Mages lost Gnosis or Wisdom for not trying to ascend, or the longer they went without using vulgar magic the more potent their Paradoxes became (or some less retarded rule of similar intent), it would force them to act in the same way vitae expenditure does to Vampires.
As it stands nothing stops a Mage just fortifying their magical mansion and living their lives with a harem and drugs.
>But then again I'm also slow and jump from one project to the next, so my version would probably be out by 2020.
Like, I'm fairly certain there will be a Geist 2e. But I know there's current plans that aren't set in stone. I don't know when it'd be out. I don't know anything but REALLY preliminary discussions I've been part of.
I hope things go that direction though.
>As it stands nothing stops a Mage just fortifying their magical mansion and living their lives with a harem and drugs.
That doesn't sound so bad. It makes it easier to make a more consistent setting if most mages are self absorbed in the extreme.
Yeah. I wrote Bowery Dogs myself, with Travis Stout developing. I developed Grimm's Fairy Tales Lost and wrote a chunk of it. I also developed Edo Jidai Hunter the Vigil, and wrote a pretty significant part of it.
Mages don't have to effectively ignore their template to live a relatively normal and safe life.
Mages are simply not universally hunted or terrorized with a precarious existence, nor need to do anything unsavory, no less evil, to get by. They are not slaves, nor are they dead, consumed by psychotic anger, dangerous hungers, or compulsions. If they choose to use their powers less, they are even less of a threat or noticeable. They even get to enjoy a life as a human being because they still are human beings, just with the added ability to notice the supernatural and defend properly themselves.
You're the awoo guy, yea? How do you suppose a bunch of high-Primal urge bone shadow recluses who spend 90% of their time in the shadow would respond to a handful of humans+ a wolf blooded bringing news of a ridiculously powerful spirit(angel) in the material world doing as angels are want to do and ruining everything?
>s it stands nothing stops a Mage just fortifying their magical mansion and living their lives with a harem and drugs
Power is all about money, bitches, and "lifestyle."
Who said there's no reason to join the Seers? What's the point of magic if you're not movin' on up.
Sure, you might occasionally need to obey strange orders from the very symbols of human oppression, but you get an American Express Black Card as part of your signing bonus, and don't get me started about the $5,000 a night whores....
>Its probably even worse because you'll never know when that Seer will figure out your identity and use their profane urim to make your wife bite out her tongue.
Or bite out your tongue while kissing you.
>You don't HAVE to investigate. And chances are if you're just doing your day job, you won't even have cause to investigate. We don't even know just what the Nimbus effects are, but from the sound of it they're minor fluff, but nothing even mechanical.
No, you don't have to. But it's going to keep bugging you. And if you were the kind of person who could easily pass up a mystery in favor of living a comfortable life, you probably wouldn't have awakened. It's not a compulsion, it's a character trait the game assumes characters share to some degree. Buying into that sort of thing is also part of playing the game.
Uh yeah. We added a seventh Seeming, who are basically people who escaped by using the rules of stories.
No clue. I finished my Bowery Dogs stuff over a year ago. My Edo and Grimm's Fairy Tales stuff was all finished on schedule months ago. I try not to pay too much attention to release dates for stuff that I'm not developing.
That's a complicated question. I'm not a huge fan. I feel like it hews a little too close to CWoD sensibilities, and ignores a lot of what makes NWoD/CofD cool. That's just personal opinion.
I didn't actually read it until I was asked to co-develop Mortal Remains. Filamena and I tried playing it, because she had to doctor/write half of the mummy chapter (like the Habibti Ma stuff). It's okay?
I also find it a bit narrow. Like, the Venn Diagram of interests required for my group pretty much guarantees I'd never be able to get involved in a serious Mummy game.
I think maybe it would have benefitted from being a "blue book" like Immortals instead. I dunno.
Ironically, way back when, before Mummy was even outlined, Eddy Webb was talking about developing it, and asked if he could pull some ideas/themes from one of my indie games, Amaranthine, in specific its intense reliance on short flashbacks to tell epic, millennia-spanning stories. I don't think any of that made it in once CAS took over.
It's also the only NWoD game I've not at all been involved in. So I don't have as much care/attachment to it.
Also, its not as if Seers are all bad -- the book Seers of the Throne talks about them having created religions and divisions in people good and bad, and how you can distract people from ascension by making them starve or by making them confident in non-supernatural means to obtain salvation.
Yeah. I actually wrote parts of Requiem 2e, Forsaken 2e, Mage 2e, Promethean 2e, Demon, Beast, and other stuff. I get around.
I wrote the "core template" stuff for Forsaken. Like, Harmony, shapeshifting, Hunt Conditions, Merits, healing, all that shit. That was a way long time ago though; I've not even really read the final Forsaken 2e book. So I'm not the best person to ask questions.
A general, entirely voluntary, desire to investigate mysteries, no less while possessing a broad host of powers generally capable of providing significant defense and offense, is hardly comparable to the daily life and death struggles of Changelings and Demons, the compulsions, hungers and inherent hostility of vampires and werewolves (to say nothing of the strix or idigam), or living a life of effective servitude like mummies.
I literally just sent it over to editing. Editing should be done like Feb 1st. Not long after that? I can't say exactly when, but basically there's art direction/layout, then approvals.
If Mages do deal with their Template Shit™ it's a good bet that they'll run afoul of something, especially since in 2e their Template Shit™ is literally poking things.
What I'm pointing out is that it's carrot, not stick.
>Filamena and I tried playing it, because she had to doctor/write half of the mummy chapter (like the Habibti Ma stuff).
Did she write the Faithful of Shulpae? Because honestly I think the Anthropophagia merit is a lame copout, and it would make a lot of sense if it was written by someone who didn't like/understand Mummy, and wanted to save wordcount for a better game, but still for some reason wanted to give Mummies a Conspiracy instead of Geist or Changeling.
I'm a bad person to ask. I'm a divisive asshole.
I've had interactions with him in the past. I'm aware that he exists. I was in the same room as him once. He's definitely not imaginary. I assure you.
>A Mage must do nothing, unless he wants to.
True. But they also get programmed with an obsessive personality, dedicated towards things they don't understand. Combine that with the illusion that they can do anything, and mages get killed.
Honestly, unless you become a prelate, the only BIG threat you have are ladder-climbers who wants your position.
If you are the overseer of somewhere irrelevant, however, you get money, bitches, phenomenal cosmic power, and no one trying to murder you.
She kinda liked it, FWIW. She did write that. Also, they've been a source of a ton of glowing commentary, so YMMV.
We weren't saving word count for anything. Every chapter got exactly as many words.
Honestly, the only reason Mummy got Compact/Conspiracy groups and Geist/Changeling didn't is because I wasn't a developer when we started the book; I wanted at least one player group in every chapter, as analogue to the original Hunter supplements. The Mummy chapter wasn't going to have them, but one of the two writers completely flaked way after the book was due. So, I had to fill the space, and quickly.
>If Mages do deal with their Template Shit™ it's a good bet that they'll run afoul of something, especially since in 2e their Template Shit™ is literally poking things.
All splats poke things and suffer consequences. The difference in Mage is that things are not always trying to poke mages without good and obvious reasons, and mages are usually able to poke back with equal or greater ferocity.
Ok. My respect for you just shot way up.
I personally like mummy, for some of the reasons you aren't a fan. But damn, I'm glad to see people actually having opinions, rather than just cowering down and answer what people want to hear.
>Also, they've been a source of a ton of glowing commentary, so YMMV.
... but it's literally just "make up your own power". Most of the Dread Powers would even need to be reworked, and definitely refluffed.
All splats poke things and suffer the consequences in that poking things means consequences. Only Mages are encouraged specifically to go out and poke things.
Only if you do stuff with your magic. If you don't ever magic about, you'll never attract their attention.
As many as you need.
Vampire populations spike in cities where Embrace is unregulated, or even approved of. But cities with few vampires, keep having few vampires.
It's simply too diverse to have any specific numbers.
>Only Mages are encouraged specifically to go out and poke things.
I definitely don't agree. Werewolves and vampires must hunt. Demons and Changelings are constantly hunted by creatures more powerful than themselves.
My point is not that mages all have easy lives, it's just that their lives are comparatively much easier (and far more "normal" and human) and they actually have some reasonable options to relax and take themselves out of the supernatural rat race if they so choose. The free agency and options are what's most relevant.
Eh. There's a disagreement you have.
I find that more open-ended powers tend to work for some people, and not for others, because there's no good way to do them without devolving into wordy pedantry and time-consuming edge case work. We played with them a few times, and they were a ton of fun for us. So I don't know.
Well hell. I disagree with everyone. I hope you can find it as a source of comfort.
I proposed one during the initial conversations for Mortal Remains; I had an idea that felt a little like Division Six meets the Lone Gunmen. But I wasn't the developer at the time, and author of that section (I think it was Jess Hartley?) said she didn't want to do any new groups.
I don't see why people couldn't be honest about what they like and don't like so long as they don't completely slam it.
Speaking of which, i wish mummy were playable it has amazing powers setting but its pretty bad in actual play.
>I'd love to see that Hunter group in a blog post or on the forums if you can't sneak it into HtV 2e.
My pitch was less than a paragraph. I definitely didn't write them; I was just giving the other writers some ideas. I wish I had more time for longer-form home-brew stuff.
I don't know if I'm involved in Hunter 2e yet. I'd be sad if not; it'd be the first 2e book I wasn't on. But, I haven't been contacted or talked to anyone about it. If I'm not, I MIGHT write Hunter: Tokyo anyway, because it'd suck if Hunter broke the trend of having my Tokyo content in every 2e core. Particularly considering Edo Jidai Hunter was my baby.
He's got seniority. He's practically got tenure. Anything short of crashing his car into Rich's house and he's got job security.
He could even complain about the Exalted art and get away with it.
Best kind of carrots.
>David, has Monica selected you as one of the writers for Hunter 2e?
No idea. I hope. I'm hugely into Hunter. I adore the Compact/Conspiracy setup the game has; I like not having a small group of 'canon' organisations that dominate play, but I like using short form social groups like C&C to express game concepts and make statements about the world.
It's actually one of the things I pitched for Requiem 2e.
Read the Demon Storyteller's Guide fiction chapter. There's one Demon who thinks he's managed to totally drop off the radar and form his own Hell by buying all the real estate and carefully vetting who he allows to live thee.
Turns out the GM is pre-vetting the applicants he meets and the tree in his back yard is communication infrastructure, relaying his every word back to the GM.
If Demons get complacent, they get caught. If Mages get complacent, they sleep til noon and all their spells mean nothing bad happens.
I'm not big into Demon, but I thought all Demons had an "encroaching infrastructure" problem that inevitably leads to discovery, at least that's what I inferred from my quick perusal of the Storyteller's Handbook.
Mages can also uses their powers relatively freely without much repercussion so long as they don't poke something more powerful. Great wealth and comfort are relatively simple without poking anything or anyone that would constitute a threat.
Sorry, it's not Infrastructure but a concealed angel.
>Deep beneath the carefully manicured lawns and smoothly-asphalted streets, the angel Sakkirel slowly extruded another thin root through the soil and into the plumbing of Israfel’s house. It tasted the demon’s waste, broke it into component molecules and added the data to what it had collected over the last six years. The tiny sound wave vibrations of Israfel’s conversations made the leaves of Sakkirel’s above-ground forms tremble and capture the words.
>If you really want to write for Hunter, it certainly wouldn't be untoward if you contacted Monica directly rather than waiting for her to contact you.
I have actually put my hand forward. But I think she's in early planning/whatever stages. I don't know. I haven't heard anything.
I usually reach out early on any of these and offer my assistance because I've been so deeply involved in 2e.
Monica appears to indeed be very early in her process. She's had a few blog entries, nothing specific, and she's even soliciting advice / fan feedback, including a possible open call for writers.
If she's truly trying to "democratize" the developer process, I wish her luck, for she will certainly need it in great abundance.
>If Demons get complacent, they get caught. If Mages get complacent, they sleep til noon and all their spells mean nothing bad happens.
Well you can say that's how it works in theory, but in practice you're going to be losing Cover for doing stuff and only getting it back if you're pretty aggressive about buying up people's pets and ex girlfriends and shit.
When I was doing assignments for Changeling, I got uncomfortable because I had to give up control of a 2e Merits section to someone else.
Fortunately, I really loved Jeremy Kostiew's core template Merits. And I had everyone do Merits for their own stuff. So like, the person I had on Oneiromancy did the Oneiromancy Merits. The person I had on Hedgespun did the Hedgespun Merits. I think it worked out really well.
So unless I'm misunderstanding...the scale incept allows you to increase numerical modifiers, which means for say...the speed numina, you could use it to increase the factor by which it multiplies the angels speed, yes? I just did some math based on this presumption and found that if an angel I had statted up used this combination it could move at about 29000 miles per hour, which would be(unless google is lying to me) 38 times the speed of sound.
>Fortunately, I really loved Jeremy Kostiew's core template Merits. And I had everyone do Merits for their own stuff. So like, the person I had on Oneiromancy did the Oneiromancy Merits. The person I had on Hedgespun did the Hedgespun Merits. I think it worked out really well.
I should probably clarify, since I've talked so much about these Epic Merits lately.
1) I wrote them for GMC. I didn't have space to put them in. The ones I didn't put in, I ended up putting into Beast.
2) Matt took some of them out. I don't know off-hand which. But the Kickstarter draft, IIRC, had all the ones I included. I can't remember.
3) I didn't really think to put them in the CofD Rulebook, because I was mostly just copying the same ones, and adding a few new ones for my Investigation and Chase rules. I didn't have space to add pretty much anything. So it's not like Rose cut them or anything; I just never included them.
4) The Advanced Library will go in Mage 2e.
5) I might put some in Changeling 2e. If I find a little space. I'll decide that in like the next two weeks, basically.
6) I MIGHT put a couple in Hurt Locker, just to sort of lay some precedent. They're not perfect for that book, but also that book is a real hodgepodge of stuff. In a lot of ways, it's an expanded CofD book, as much as it is specifically about violence stuff.
7) I like numbered lists.
>but they are still generally able to lead a safe and comfortable (and human!) life on their own terms if they so choose.
What part of Addicted To Mystery is unclear?
They can't. Every last Mage is compulsively obsessed with poking shit that's best not poked.
They can't just Awaken to the Supernal and then ignore it and go back to living a normal life.
Demon storytellers guide, adds special powers for angels caled "incepts", they're things like he one listed above, which is Scale, there's another that allows you to increase the number of objects created by a numina(units)
>They can't. Every last Mage is compulsively obsessed with poking shit that's best not poked.
So basically this.
UFOs, aliens, alien creatures. Every supernatural being under the sun is already there, making the aliens of all things be fake ("they're actually true fae/spirits/astral beings/demons/ghosts/etc.") is silly.
You can't just accidentally Awaken in an accident any more, like Moros being created by near-death experiences.
Each Awakening follows a growing realization of the existence of Magic after piecing together fragments you uncover through your frantic, obsessive search. Helped along by a Mystery Play.
An obsession which only fades slightly once you DO Awaken.
>It's the entire theme of Mage 2e
That's... not anything at all. I mean, we gotta remember Mage 1e's theme was "Power Corrupts" but they were given powers that were free and completely non corrupting, unless you go to completely bizarre lengths with Paradox.
There may or may not be anything to it.
Sure, but we have no idea what substance there is to that or to what degree that obsession will lead them to have to leave the house, instead of, say, shitposting on /x/, unless supernal lore literally cannot be contained by the internet and mages intuitively know that. And that's just for example.
>Surely the parasite ghost thingy latched onto your soul has some way to force you to act, since it went to the effort of saving you from death?
The parasite ghost thingy latched onto your soul did so because it's tired of being dead and wants to experience being alive again. If anything, it's going to ENCOURAGE you to ignore those pesky whining ghosts and get back to doing living people stuff like cocaine and whores.
Geist was really big on cocaine and whores.
>its intense reliance on short flashbacks to tell epic, millennia-spanning stories. I don't think any of that made it in once CAS took over.
The only Mummy game I've actually seen is Dave Brookshaw's, and his game is all about this, so this statement confuses me.
Well for one thing every single Mage has a built-in stat labelled "Obsessions", and Dave seems pretty good about writing his mechanics to actually reinforce his themes.
He completely fucking rewrote the way Paradox works for not being thematic enough, for example.
"Actually discovering lore yourself" is required to get Arcane XP out of it, yes. There's a blog post that talks about how Mysteries have to be personally experienced or they don't count.
Which gets Mages off their asses and out into the dark corners of the World of Darkness poking shit that's best not poked.
Well, I *did* write for Mummy, and spent most of my time writing Storyteller material about how to incorporate flashbacks.
Mummy's an odd game for me. My group really liked it, and it hit several of my obsessions (flawed memory and perception issues, deep time & history, revelatory campaign structure) square-on. I really enjoyed writing for it. Then in Sothis Ascends I became entirely obsessed with making the Old Kingdom setting as authentic as I could while still featuring mummies, and I just got done Developing the mage/mummy crossover setting for Dark Eras.
On the other hand, it's got issues relating to being the last 1st ed game, which ignored several other games (as is CAS' right, btw - it's just a choice I wouldn't have personally made) and did things like its ghost setting and rules expansion that's incompatible with Geist.
Also - I've hung out with CAS a few times. He's real. He even introduced me to Mark Rein*Hagan once. He's just not keen on participating in internet fora, which I can't blame him for.
oh hey Dave is here.
Dave, care to help explain to these Anons how Mages don't just Awaken to the Supernal and then go straight the fuck back to their mortal lives, except now without a power and heating bill?
Do the obsessions have to actually be magic related? Or could you say, have a cop who's obsessed with seeing justice done even if they need to go outside the laws of man and nature to get it?
In setting, The sort of person who would do that wouldn't Awaken, and mages can't turn their Peripheral Mage Sight off, so they're constantly bombarded with "pings" from the uncanny.
Mechanically, it's mostly carrot-based. The system is meant to lure you onto the hunt for Mysteries with Arcane beats. Nimbus is a factor, though, especially for a mage who doesn't keep a healthy separation between her Shadow and mundane lives.
Combine the two, and any player characters who refuse to act like mages out of sheer obstinacy just fall into my "why are you even playing this game, then?" bin. Or, if they push it, targets for other mages who accuse them of being Banishers. Or for supernatural entities that don't like mages.
>In setting, The sort of person who would do that wouldn't Awaken
Even if their mundane life IS an area they'd see a lot of use and attempts to progress their skills with magic? Like say, a Detective who's more than willing to do his best to solve supernatural crimes as well as mundane or ask the ghost of a victim who killed them?
I might be pondering about a favorite previous Mage character which was a Hong Kong Detective Adamantine Arrow. Not the most knowledgeable about the weird stuff in the world but more than willing to throw down with anything and everything that was preying on mortal people and do their best to learn what sort of stuff was out there.
Mostly if they'd still work because they managed to keep a very good handle on their mundane life while doing all that. They just ended up with a reputation for having almost uncanny ability to find evidence.
The earlier debate centered more around how the default or "typical" quality of life for a mage is arguably just much better than other major splats (apart from the argument about who;s more powerful), not whether mages lived an easy life or didn't regularly encounter danger. Mages are not being hunted by anyone, are still alive and essentially human, don't stand a good chance of accidentally killing family and friends, can choose to avoid danger or unnecessary risk, etc.
Do you believe this is true, or in your opinion as Illustrious Mage 2e Grand Poobah do mages suffer equal or comparable maladies as the other splats?
So what I *said*, back at GenCon, was that we intend Deviant to be by default the lowest-powered game bar Hunter, because Deviant's antagonists skew heavily to "large organized shadowy conspiracies of normal human beings" and powers like mages' or vampires' would take all the fun out of it.
BUT it doesn't have to be. That's just the default playstyle. If you want more and more powerful characters, the downsides of being a Deviant and the scale of their opposition will scale up with them. So, to take two examples, Deviant's setting encourages you to play nearly-human types opposed by conspiracies who can't act openly either, like Dark Angel, Orphan Black, Sense8, et al, but if you want to be Bruce Banner, your opposition will become the US Army. And if you really want to be Tetsuo or Dr Manhattan... You won't last long, but it'll be awesome while you do.
Which is why it's looking increasingly likely that Cheiron won't be used. Because the bad guys of Deviant look like they're going to be like a crunchier, antagonistic version of Mummy's cults, where you build them as a Storyteller depending on what your players have designed as their characters, rather than endless lists of two-page splats that will take up half the book and still not be comprehensive enough. We'll probably still have lots of examples, and Cheiron might be one of those, but time will tell.
Mage's theme is about fucking up - going into something and then facing the consequences. I preferred the carrot to the stick in terms of mechanical incentives to action, and the stick rather than the carrot when it comes to the fallout.
So, for example, werewolves get fucked up if they *don't* hunt, but get rewarded if they do. Mages get rewarded for going to seek Mysteries, and then get fucked up when they succeed.
>Mages get rewarded for going to seek Mysteries, and then get fucked up when they succeed.
How do mages get fucked up by discovering or solving mysteries? Don't they become more powerful?
Demon has some crossover with Mage, specifically "having peered behind the curtain." But not really any with Changeling. Deviant sounds like it will be a lot like Changeling, but with a more freeform concept of what a Deviant is, like Demon has, and having the players be constantly hunted, like both Changeling and Demon. That's the problem with constantly adding more Splats, it's akin to class bloat in Pathfinder, just not as egregious.
Hey Dave, have you ever read a little known series called the Dresden Files before? If so, how much has it influenced you when writing for Mage? I think Harry seems like your standard Mage character.
You know, it's kinda funny. Dresden is an anomaly for in-universe mages.
When it talks about most of the other mages about it's talking about people who (Mostly) have pretty stable lives and do stuff like go back to uni every few decades for something interesting education-wise.
He's said before that Harry Dresden is a pretty good example of a high-Gnosis, low-Wisdom 2e Mage (specifically an Obrimos, in Dresden's case.
Also as a demonstrative example of why "low Wisdom" does not necessarily mean "bad person". (John Constantine was his example of why "high Wisdom" doesn't necessarily mean "good person" either.)
I have, up to... Uh... I think I'm up to the latest one.
And.. Not really? I'm much more influenced by Hellblazer and the Invisibles.
Harry's a good example of a well meaning low Wisdom mage, though. Although the universe he lives in doesn't work like the CofD.
Constantine is not high Wisdom. He's sold his soul to like, 4 different Demon Princes now?
He also found out how to escape Heaven, Hell, and everything between. He's basically a Mage who won at being a Mage.
>I have, up to... Uh... I think I'm up to the latest one.
You've probably caught-up with all the books. At the current rate, Mage 3e will be out before Peace Talks, the next scheduled book in the series.
>My group really liked it
I had quite a lot of fun running round as Akmunhtep, laughing at people and occasionally kataring them.
I think that the campaign suffered a bit due to it being in a period where we had a lot of missed sessions.
Wouldn't mind going back to Mummy some day (though not at the expense of the current Exalted campaign which I think we're all enjoying a lot).
True, but Butcher still released books during this time despite all his life events, just not for the DF.
I get the impression he's really tired of DF, but his other series are not nearly as popular or profitable, and DF pays the bills.
Most Vampire Covenants see it as a curse, too. The Sanctified and Ordo Dracul in particular.
The Circle of the Crone are a bunch of heretical weirdos for suggesting that there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a vampire.
They've definitely inherited some of the parts of the Sabbat, yeah. There's a reason learning their special Covenant perk thing permanently lowers your Humanity cap every time you get a new dot.
The Sabbat were split into Belial's Brood (raging destroyers), Lancea et Sanctum (Vampire church) and the Circle of the Crone (Weird, inhuman mysticism).
The Ordo Dracul is also The Tremere crossed with the Tzimisce. They don't have unbalanced blood magic any more. They have completely new ways to be the most broken guys in the game.
Wisdom's about understanding consequences, too. When Constantine did the aforementioned soul selling, he basically risked the entire world to save his ass, not really sure if it'd work, with the added caveat that if, for whatever reason, he died in the near future, the world would end. Given how often his life ends up at risk, I'd say that what he did would've been worth quite a few Wisdom rolls.
Oh, and addendum: In doing all this, John also massively unbalanced the hierarchy of Hell, causing it to go from a stable triumvirate to a dictatorship, leading to many deaths, including those of several of his friends.
I could go on with all the awful consequences that happened because John couldn't bring himself to quit smoking.
Which designer would you like to return?
* Investigate who is covering up the mass-scale disappearance of livestock from surrounding areas and why.
* Something is poisoning the city water supply, and has been about 2 years after each renovation. Someone caught *something* on cam and auto-uploaded it to the shared Dropbox of one of the PCs and promptly disappeared later on.
*You're sent to investigate (read: ridicule) certain claims by the James Randi foundation. What happens when the claims turn out much less phony than you thought?
* Speaking of phones, it seems like a number of cellphone towers locations are notorious for 'caching' calls, causing the signals to sometimes arrive delayed or even before the event causing them happened. You gotta fix this; Nobody's dropping money into a complete overhaul of the systems in the region.
* Seems like the town's wishing well has lately stepped up its game. What happens when the PCs seek to cheese the system?
* A somewhat famous (in the scientific world) cave explorer recently hitched a ride home. That wouldn't be disturbing, but said ride was firefighter wagon sent to retrieve him from a cave he'd been reportedly stuck in for the last ten days. As far as anyone knows he considers the stories of his demise vastly exagerrated and has a point-by-point accurate alibi for each day, though the people corroborating his claims all seem 1) Very isolated and 2) Kind of strange.
Is it just me, or do Huntsmen almost seem like the Fetch of a True Fae? It is a spirit of Arcadia and Their personality is based upon the one who breathed life into it, much like a Fetch is given life by a fragment of a human soul and magic..
As someone that struggles with actual PTSD following an actual abduction, I wanna thank you for that.], yo. I've only played promethean and a bit of werewolf, but I've run a game that had changelings, and it really struck a chord with me. When the new book comes out I'm excited to give it a try.
Too bad they didn't succeed with their Kickstarter. Though imo they overestimated the amount of people who would be interested - 100k would never happen
They are mostly leaning towards a monthly payment model. They can't really afford to go F2P, plus it will mean that they will have to have some items that can only be bought with real currency and they don't really want to influence the gameplay by allowing people to buy BFG 9000.
David, I'll be honest, I don't think you are necessarily a dick. You seem reasonable when on a chan. But you act like a completely different person when you are on Twitter. I remember when I was trying to have conversation with you last year about GamerGate. While you didn't block me (which is a feat considering how eager people are to censor those they whose opinions they don't like), you have not ignored my arguments and immediately after talking to me tweeted about the "evils" of GG.
What you say here in this post is reasonable and sound; what you say on Twitter is worrying because I am pretty sure you are one of those people who will fight people on the internet over the myth of wage gap. The amount of hate and passive-aggressiveness on your Twitter is, well, pretty bad. Don't have an eloquent closing for this.
Huh. Not sure we need this. Not being antagonistic or whatever, but I assumed that because folklore and fairytales are so heavily involved with the Wyrd, the "a changeling escaped by outwitting a fae like in a fairytale" would be quite common. Not sure we need a separate Seeming for that. Might be interesting I guess, will see how it goes
Is Rein-asterisk-Hagan related to Rein-dot-Hagan?
What're the Egregore?
Interesting. Will Deviants all have a similar origin or power source, like Clones in Promethean, or will they be more along the lines of Cheiron's agents, where you're literally just a mash up of whatever works and if you happen to be similar to another Deviant, that's because there are only so many broad archetypes? Is there a Deviant equivalent to the Divine Fire, basically?
Also is Guyver a possibility?
In both Demon and Changeling you're in deep cover from a much more powerful shadowy entity. In Changeling it's your abusive ex and in Demon it's your waterboarding covert ops former boss.
I meant it covers the same ground as Mage because of the mechanics and themes of Paradox and Compromise, by the way, not "peering behind the curtain"; Demons are born behind the curtain. But both power types cause you a great deal of trouble if you use them wildly.
That's because for the most part Dresden is too wrapped up in doing human things and in a lot of ways he thinks too small... except where it concerns his Obsessions, like Little Chicago.
Wasn't he already married?
>He's sold his soul to, like, 4 different Demon Princes now?
Yeah, but he also thought it through and got them over a barrel. That's why he's High Wisdom, because he did stupid shit but clearly knows how to play the game and break the rules.
Dresden does the same thing but has no idea what he's doing and just goes "Fuck it" and last minute scrambles together a plan to blow something up.
Plus okay it's clearly not a perfect 1 to 1 exampleI mean, by the same metric... >>44708086
Why IS Harry your go-to example of "low Wisdom doesn't mean serial killer"? I mean, Dresden does some crazy ass bullshit and tends to let all hell loose (like the time in the comics where he unleashes a giant flesh eating Outsider to wreak havoc and destroy an army of Red Court vampires and White Court shock troops... although I don't think he would have done that in the books, because murdering tons of human minions with a Lovecraft monster doesn't seem his style), but he also tends to try to mitigate the fallout.
I mean, if Dresden was in the World of Darkness, he'd do his best to cast perfectly like the Guardians want (although he'd be a Mystagogue). He's done reckless shit that he wasn't able to control, but it's all as controlled as possible. It's just that the time he DOES lose control is very overt and obvious: The Red Court Ball being the biggest one, and afterwards he CONSTANTLY worries that his fire spells will fuck things up, and he tells the audience about how fire is uncontrollable and he needs to be careful using it. I mean, the burned hand isn't even HIS fire, it was Mavra's Renfields using napalm jelly to get passed his shield.
The one time that he does do some reckless uncontrolled shit is in Changes, and, really can you blame the guy? Even then he had a plan in place to actually deal with
becoming the Winter Knight, it's just that Faerie Queens can fuck up your plans.
Dresden just looks low Wis.
>Why IS Harry your go-to example of "low Wisdom doesn't mean serial killer"? I mean, Dresden does some crazy ass bullshit and tends to let all hell loose (like the time in the comics where he unleashes a giant flesh eating Outsider to wreak havoc and destroy an army of Red Court vampires and White Court shock troops... although I don't think he would have done that in the books, because murdering tons of human minions with a Lovecraft monster doesn't seem his style), but he also tends to try to mitigate the fallout.
Because, mostly, he has rather sloppy control of his spells, and his hex-field (Nimbus) is the worst he has ever heard of.
>Implying GG isn't evil
Well, more like whiny that they aren't getting catered to for once, really. So more one of those subtle evils of modern life, like creating a sidewalk traffic jam.
I still think David is also whiny on Twitter, and the kind of person who leads to minorities unironically using #NotYourShield without realizing /v/ made that up
So which wife is the smut writer? Was he with the smut write during the last few years and they got married? Or was she the last wife?
But like I said, he doesn't have sloppy control. He constantly does everything he can to limit his harm to others. Every time someone kills one of his friends to get at him, it kills him a little as well, and he's even tried to hole up in his bomb shelter house at times because of that.
I'm not saying the guy is Wisdom 10 or anything, but he doesn't seem like Wisdom 3 or even 4 to me. Dude is the type to contain his paradoxes even if it kills him. The one REALLY reckless use of magic I can think of that he didn't do with some kind of back up of fail plan was summoning Mab without a circle.
>So which wife is the smut writer? Was he with the smut write during the last few years and they got married? Or was she the last wife?
Julie, the ex, wrote smut/romance.
He and the new one are just engaged as of yet.
He wrote the sex scene in Skin Game solo, if it matters.
>Well, more like whiny that they aren't getting catered to for once, really. So more one of those subtle evils of modern life, like creating a sidewalk traffic jam.
The fuck are you even smoking? Their 'movement' is all about "Kotaku are shitheads", and we all knew that before anyways.
Harm to others doesn't matter, it's public shows of magic. If Dresden's universe had the fallout of Awakening, he'd be dealing with paradox-induced monstrosities every other chapter.
It was a poorly thought out scam.
The movement is "Kotaku were mean to us, let's throw a fit". How is that not whiny?
Public showing of magic isn't where Wisdom loss comes in. Wisdom loss is a failure to properly manage your magic's fallout. And while shit goes tits up with Dresden, it would also go much worse if he didn't have the control that he does. He's not precise and measured like some of the other, older Wardens, but he's still REALLY good at not burning everything in his path to cinders without caring about the people who get in the way. Even as early as Fool Moon he was making sure no one got hurt.
>Even as early as Fool Moon he was making sure no one got hurt.
Again, hurting people has very little to do with paradox.
Magic does not belong in the World of Darkness. Excessive and obvious use of it causes backlash. Dresden does excessive and obvious magic.
One side generally wants to play games. The other side whines about that and starts trying to throw everything on the ground because someone else gets to play. Look at Sad Puppies. "Too many books about minorities and SJWs are getting nominated, we must hijack the ballot!"
Admittedly it did get people to care about the Hugos for like half a second.
I don't understand how you don't get how this works.
Wisdom is not solely about Paradox. Wisdom is about the practical and economic use of your Magic. Wisdom is about the Mythbusters using a robotic rig and several sheets of bulletproof glass just to fire a handgun into a watermelon. It's about making sure that you don't cause damage. I have no idea why you think it's got anything to do with obvious magic. This isn't Ascension. And it isn't even Awakening anymore, it's the second edition. You can cast "Vulgar" magic all you want without Paradox, and in Dresden's world there's no Breaking Point caused by Quiescence. So for him, Wisdom is all about minimizing the damage done. And he fails at that in many situations, yeah, but more often than not he takes the precautions that the Guardians would want taken.
Again, if he were in the World of Darkness he would mitigate his paradox by taking it into his own pattern almost all of the time.
>Getting so buttflustered over "Gaming Has Too Many White Guys" isn't whining
I'm pretty sure Kotaku's views went up after GG, because previously no one cared about it but suddenly all these people were complaining and well, why not take a look at what they're complaining about?
"Kotaku's fucking shitheads" is something we can all agree on. GG itself was "movement" that attempted to be apolitical in its message but got co-opted by the right almost immediately, the natural conclusion of a reactionary force that couldn't form a central core of values right away. That this happened to a group that wanted to raise awareness of the increased politicization of gaming is an irony not lost on me. Now we can't discuss anything related to the politics of gaming, because now there's a central fight that people on the internet can cling to forever and ever instead of making any real change.
A CofD version of Dresden Files would have a Gulmoth or an Acamoth in every book.
Don't see how it's a scam and would love to know where you got that from. I can tell you that as someone who's being translating their stuff for almost one year now
I mean, you're not wrong.
>"Kotaku's fucking shitheads" is something we can all agree on.
I don't agree on it. I've honestly never really had a problem with them, and... well, they're entitled to post whatever they want.
Honestly for all the hate, I see them as relatively inoffensive as far as both social justice advocates and Gawker sites go. Even their "Too Many White Dudes" articles--which wasn't even an original thought, several people had been saying similar things--weren't like something you'd find on Jezebel. And it certainly wasn't "this man I met on an internet dating site was really nice and made money doing what he loves, but ew, it turns out he plays card games for a living and that's so nerdy".
GG was political from the outset. It was entirely "people outside my group want to play, but I don't feel they belong". Gaming is not having an increase in politicization, it's always been "political", both in terms of actual politics as well as the fact that early games were more gender neutral. It's not political to have games with female characters, or to want games where female characters aren't treated as sex objects or minorities aren't enemies or jokes. Like... the fact that other people are so upset by that makes my mind boggle. It's like all the people complaining that THIS game (bringing it back to CofD) is too SJW.
Okay? Don't play. No one is forcing GG to sit down and play Tomb Raider (although sales figures say they played it anyway), and the other side is simply asking for more games like Tomb Raider.
When people say a Kickstarter is a "scam", it usually means that a) they don't understand how scams work, and b) they don't understand how Kickstarter works.
Red Ash, Tropes Versus Women, the Ouya, and Broken Age are all "scams". Being incompetent is fraud.
Well... actually, I guess in some ways it IS fraud to say "I totally know what I'm doing!" when you don't...
Although the Ouya is more that no one read what it actually was.
Why would I want to play Nathan drake with tits. They aren't even that big. I'll just play the original Nathan Drake
It's Ironic how iconic Tome Raider used to be before it ripped off the thing that was ripping it.
I'm fine with Tomb Raider ripping off Uncharted (which, honestly, it doesn't seem THAT much more similar than Uncharted is to the original Tomb Raider; looks more like Gears of War with climbing sections).
I wish I could play my copy of new Tomb Raider, because I'm interested in a Lara Croft that ISN'T an exceptionally rich bitch who jetsets around the world to destroy priceless historical finds so she can fill her private collection.
I mean, at least Nathan Drake has the excuse that he's a street urchin thief and unlikely to be able to get a real job. He's selling artifacts to pay for food and hair gel, he's just clumsy as hell so he ends up destroying literally fucking everything.
Also Nate is a charming motherfucker, I would want to play Nathan Drake with tits.
Pretty sure he meant in gameplay. Tomb Raider was inspired by Indiana Jones, Uncharted was inspired by Indiana Jones and Tomb Raider, Tomb Raider's reboot was inspired mechanically and visually by Uncharted.
If Lara Croft or Nathan Drake really was Jones' kid (as some fan art portrays), he'd be fucking appalled. (Not that he wasn't also a grave robber. He just stuck by his "it belongs in a museum!" high ground).
For talk on Lara Croft, Indiana Jones, and archeology versus graverobbing, this is an interesting video if you're into that kind of thing
Let's pretend you were telling the truth and actually draw some WoD inspiration from that. Secrets of the Hidden Temple style campaigns: does anyone run them? Has anyone planned to run one or played in them? To me, it feels a bit neglected as a playstyle for Mage, and I worry that it'll be outright ignored in 2e.
Why do you think it would be ignored? Seems like the kind of thing Dave would love.
Also, I know a cabal in a chat game who's schtick was being explorers of different realms. They wanted people from the Sin-eater venue to take them to the Underworld.
>What're the Egregore?
Read the Mysterium book.
The short version is they're the "some knowledge needs to be experienced to be understood" faction. Big on holy places and strange rites and things. Communing with the divine, and the like.
I excepted rules for magical and high-tech submarines to use to get to Atlantean ruins (employed by the Free Council or the Seers of the Throne) and was sorely disappointed by the lack of them. I want to torpedo an Old God, Dark Corners of the Earth style, dammit.
>not sure how you cover him making himself invisible
Forces has invisibility spells
>and buggering off into the Hedge
Allies: True Fae, in his case. Although the Hedge in the Dresdenverse is more like the Near Umbra from oWoD, and is just the closest realm to the material and everyone uses it.
yeah for real, the Mysterium is actually the least likely to give a shit about Sleepers, and incidentally harbor legacies who actively abhor sleepers, because lol, who cares about normies
>Ruins of Before
>Temple Guardians and the Bound
They've been mentioned. Not sure what else you'd want. The focus for the corebook is liable to be closer to home because it needs to establish the basics and be broadly applicable, but I see no reason to think they're being swept under the rug.
>Ruins of Before
>Mages sometimes find strange ruins and temples that seem to have been built before the Fall, either by Atlantean mages or other cultures (and people, and things that were almost people, and things that were definitely not people) in the vanished world Before. Those surviving to the modern day are guarded by powerful spells, contain deadly secrets, and act as enticing Mysteries to the Awakened. Despite many attempts, ruins of Before are impossible to date – Time spells report inconsistent or nonsensical results – or even place into a typography with one another. It’s not that they hail from Atlantis, which no longer ever existed. It’s that they each seem to hail from a slightly different Atlantis, or a post-Atlantean, hyperborean time that never happened.
>[...] and things that were definitely not people [...]
This sounds very promising, giving more options to pull heavy inspiration from H. P. Lovecraft's stories for such scenarios.
>No one knows what happens to the soul of one of the purified after it dies. However, no dead purified has ever left behind a ghost, and there is no evidence that the soul of the purified ends up in the Underworld.
>Even powerful mages cannot summon the ghost of a dead purified.
Last laugh status:
Had [ X ]
Not Had [ ]
same boat my dude. i used to not give a shit about mage but all the stuff released about 2E has got me [H Y P E]. however, i fuckin love werewolf 2E so i gotta disagree with you there. but i was a fan of first edition werewolf as well, murderous mpreg ghost babies and all.
It's still the same game as 1e. You're playing shamans who happen to turn into wolves sometimes, it's urban fantasy instead of personal horror, it's even more narrow narratively than Hunter, the Pure and Bale Hounds are lousy antagonists...
Threnodists. Their mechanics don't fucking work, but "human consciousness is a unique and wondrous conglomeration of quantum Demon foam" is the kind of crazy bullshit I can get behind.
Don't forget to say you haven't been here in months.
>The Bale Hounds are edgy demon worshipers and the Pure being KILL ALL HUMANS zealots isn't exactly great enemy material.
And as ignorant as usual.
I'm confident in Mummy 2e being good, because unlike some other games, its pros and cons are pretty clear. Conditions are also exactly what Mummy needs to make Curses a bit easier to create.
There's this, which doesn't really do anything new but has a nice view on the Purified and bumps them up to 10-level instead of 5 and makes them largely GMC compliant.
It's outdated, coming out at the time of the first GMC freebie update, but it's been a good fouundation for hashing out a working template with my ST.
Same. Hated the 1e corebook, never gave any later books a chance. Now I'm hype as fuck.
I like the Bearers of the Eternal Voice and the Sisterhood of the Blessed a lot. I haven't really read around enough to have a proper favorite though.
I'm really digging Mage: the Ascension, but I'm not 100% sure how the "average" Mage game would go. Of course, it depends a lot on which faction(s) the PC's are with, a Technocracy game is likely different than a Traditions game. But what are some plot hooks? What are some BBEG's and what are their plans? How much of a role do Sleepers play?
Like, if the stereotypical D&D game is "Get hired by a quest giver to clear out a dwarven mine, kill the goblins in the mines, slay dragon, and acquire loot", what does the stereotypical Traditions game look like? What does the stereotypical Technocracy game look like?
being edgy doesn't make them bad, and the Maeljin are cool. Beings of pure malice are cool. Only one of the three tribes of the Pure want to kill all humans, and they don't even want to kill so much as they want human technology to regress to pre-industrial, hell, pre-iron age levels.
Ideally, a Mage game's supposed to sort of write itself, since it's very heavily driven by the wants of the player characters (and their need to deal with the consequences of what they do to get it). The Technocracy's obviously easier to write for, because if worse comes to worst you can always pull a "You get briefed by command: there's a reality deviant in Sector X12[Classified]. It must be eliminated."
But I guess if you're out of ideas, similar plots work for at least some of the traditions. Hermetics and Euthanatos are the obvious culprits, due to their hierarchicality and (in the latter case) narrow mindedness.
"Your master tells you to go recover that relic, which was stolen by Nephandi. Storm the Chantry."
"Your master tells you to kill this man, who is evil. Kill the dude."
You know, thinking about it, running a "Storm the building and recover objective" type mission with mages might actually be an interesting experiment. They're a lot squishier in a fight than your average dungeon crawler but there's a lot more they can do to PREPARE for the dungeon crawl.
Just have a detailed description of each part of the "target structure" (the heavily guarded technocratic lab, the enemy chantry, etc.), complete with details of its defenses, dangers, etc. Give the PCs so and so many days to prepare and relatively free reign in how to do so.
They want to gather information? That's a challenge and a scene.
They want to acquire weapons? That's a challenge and a scene.
They want blueprints of the security system? To bribe the demon guarding the back entrance (by accepting a quest from him and eliminating a rival in the Umbra)? To get the ingredients for the ritual that will remove the magical protections?
Challenges and scenes. The assault itself is just the climax of the adventure, the last act, where all the preparation comes together.
Thanks, that's very helpful! I like the idea of just setting up the different paths they can go down.
Ascension seems more interesting to me than Awakening, though I generally prefer NWoD's mechanics. The setting/factions/metaphysics of Ascension are just too cool to pass up, imo. I'd personally love to try playing a member of the Technocracy, especially a $yndicate agent.
I dunno, its probably my favorite thing about the game. I haven't delved too deeply into Awakening, but the "Everything Is Atlantian" part doesn't appeal to me much. Not that its bad, I'm sure there's a lot that's really good about it, but all the fluff of Ascension REALLY strikes a chord in me. Glad you like Awakening though, I'll give the core another read through.
It's more that everything is Supernal, and "Atlantis" is the name that Mages use for a society of the Awakened that may or may not have existed in the past.
Also the core is shit, read DaveB's development blogs.
For easy reference, listed in chronological order.
The 1e core really is shit.
I'm a huge fan of DaveB, and I agree that his devblogs are a great place to start learnig about Awakening.
But I fucking hate whenever people harp on the 1e core, or use Dave's quote where he said that "you need a few supplemets to really grok Mage".
Fuck that. I was sold on mage from day 1 with the core. You know what game couldn't do that? Ascension. It took both a fan doing his best to sell it to me, and seeing it actually being played to get me to kinda like it.
I didn't need to read Tome of the Mysteries or Guardians or Dave's APs (which actually anyone interested in Mage but can't grok it from the books should read).
The old core is ugly, densely packed and difficult to parse. It's still one of my most treasured rpg books, and sometimes I just re-read parts of it.
Dave's spoilers and comments have really raised expectations for Mage 2e to an unprecedented level.
Even if the book is excellent, which I expect, I don't believe it could ever meet its now almost mythical expectations. No RPG could do so. There simply aren't enough pages and words available in the book to comprehensively deal with everything, and Signs of Sorcery and other supplements are a very long way off.
I hope we're not disappointed when the book is finally published (which given current delays should be around GenCon 2018).
I'm not in favour of Ascension or anything, and I liked Mage from the core, but it's true that most people really don't like it, and it's hard to get into.
Also, new thread
Took a while, because I wanted to try new things with the starter image.
Oh, totally. It's still a great game with a few faults blown out of proportion by upset Ascension fans back in 2005.
I knew I wouldn't go back to Ascension after reading it. I didn't entirely "get" it until Guardians of the Veil, though. But that was like, book 3.
It doesn't. No room.
2e Legacies are shorter than 1e Legacies, but they still take up 1500ish words each, so we could only include one in the Era a special backer assigned expanded wordcount to.
Tome of Mysteries was almost mandatory, and 2e would have a lot less good stuff to clarify and explore without great sourcebooks like Mysterium, GofV Left-Handed Path, and Imperial Mysteries.
Mage 1e was good, but very dense and with some definitive and pervasive problems. It really was a work in progress.
You mean Rmhoals? They're mentioned in a couple of places throughout 1e (one of the stories in the anthology has a tribe of them in it) and in 2e they're statted in Signs of Sorcery. They're our go-to example of one of the not-entirely human "Atlantean" races mages sometimes run into in the lonely places of the Fallen World, because they're based on theosophical theories about Atlantis and, well, who doesn't like 9-foot tall indigo-skinned giants?
Hah. No no no. One of the things we've changed in 2e is making Emanation Realms (the weird semi-Supernal pocket universes from Imperial Mysteries. No, not Chantries, the other, naturally occuring ones) accessible to normal mages through some verges.
2e describes Emanations, Chantries, Wendings, ruins of the Time Before, A bucket of different types of Iris (gateways to other places, ranging from spots you can meditate in to reach specific locations in the astral, to portals to the Lower Depths, natural slipways through space, time-bubbles, etc). On top of the Astral, Shadow, and Underworld. And stuff like ley lines and Hallows.
Mages have a *lot* of unusual places to go digging through. One of the sample settings' central Mystery is about gateways to alternate universes that keep opening up in the city.