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/wodg/&/cofd/ Chronicles of Darkness...
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You are currently reading a thread in /tg/ - Traditional Games

Thread replies: 323
Thread images: 20
Pandora uploaded all her character art to Imgur, and provided a zip.
http://thenewminus.imgur.com/
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bsfqtd45b9fwbvp/pc.zip
(If you could start uploading them to urbfan.booru.com that'd be swell)

Someone linked Dreams of Avarice
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ctjmhm

And someone else linked the Demon Storyteller's Guide
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8lHuEeaOkFRM3BfNE80Y0dpSTQ/view?usp=docslist_api

And another Hurt Locker preview
http://theonyxpath.com/hurt-locker-the-lost-boys/

Previously: >>44703864
-----------------------------------------------
>We have a booru, add things to it! (Be sure to tag well)
urbfan.booru.com
>Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-changeling-the-dreaming-20th-anniversary-ed
>The Onyx Path Official Website
http://theonyxpath.com/
>Drive-Thru RPG, for all your legally-obtained book needs
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/
>A Mega bin, for your less legally-obtained book needs
https://mega.nz/#F!wpB0ib4a!EsAU0AE4ihrNlDWzp3-MIw
>The Chronicles of Darkness Core Book(Which isn't in the Mega link)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Abn1a6PgUCa19KbjdNcmNMWms/view?pli=1MWms/view?pli=1

>Bunch of dumb tumblrs that are filled with WoD jokes
http://puttingthevigilinvigilantism.tumblr.com/
http://hedgingyourbets.tumblr.com/
http://atlanteanstupidity.tumblr.com/
http://inthenameofthemoonmoon.tumblr.com/
http://whatshouldvampirescallme.tumblr.com/
http://whathappeninthechantry.tumblr.com/
http://harpiesgonnaharp.tumblr.com/
>>
>>44718237

Let him play Ascension if he wants to play Ascension man. There isn't any point in giving someone a list of 2e spoilers if he isn't familiar with 1e and isn't interested in even playing Awakening. They are different games. Its not like Awakening is an "upgrade" of Ascension. 2e especially is going to be far removed from what drew him to Ascension.

As for the discussion last thread about Mage 1e core, I do think that it's hate is a bit misplaced. I really, really liked Awakening's backstory and setting right from the start. I thought the game worked well without any supplements and the first couple of books that were released for it were immediate improvements to the setting. It wasn't like I had to slog through a bunch of them for Mage to get good, it started good and Secrets of the Ruined Temple made it even better.

But I do fall into the trap of saying that the 1e core is bad, not because of the game being bad, but because of the layout. The first couple chapters are dense as fuck and it was hard getting my new players to read through it all when they all just wanted to jump in and play. Then there are a bunch of rules for things that rarely come up and not enough rules for stuff that do and sifting through the the lore and mechanics was just a pain. I don't know why it was such a hassle finding Imbued Weapon over and over again but it was.

And then the art. My god the art.
>>
>>44718581
>Mages have a *lot* of unusual places to go digging through. One of the sample settings' central Mystery is about gateways to alternate universes that keep opening up in the city.
Please stop selling me on this book and let me buy the damn book already.
>>
>>44718342
You should probably pester the guy who does the Monday Meeting Notes stuff to update Mage's status, btw
>>
But seriously, why would you play Ascension instead of Awakening

Fucking oWoDsies gtfo to your general
>>
>>44718872
Because it's fun, and you can come at magic a lot of different ways depending on your Paradigm, and the Technocrats are very fun to play, compared to the Seers.
>>
>>44718778
This would also be helpful.

Hasn't it said they're waiting on layout notes from Dave for like 3 weeks now?
>>
>>44718872
This IS the oWoD general, faggot.
>>
>>44718655
I'm anon that vented last thread, and I largely agree with you.
I just get ticked off when I see people prey of the feeling of a fresh edition coming (soon) that shit on the old core since it's something they feel they won't have to deal with anymore.

I'm right there with everyone on stuff like the Path write-ups, the art that was 90% awful, 8% meh and 2% decent, the bad editing (but then, that's a general WW thing, isn't it?).

But I don't, and never did, had problem with stuff like the Atlantis myth, the Orders and the Seers of the Throne, even out of the core.

While I'm here though, I'm curious: the Rhmoal in 1e edition were only mentioned in the Mage books like, twice, but we had an actual write up for them (with plot hooks and all!) in Hunter, as sort of a Compact advantage for the Loyalists of Thule.

Does that write-up inform at all how they will look in Mage 2e, or will they have as much a connection as the different type of Aswang?
>>
>>44718923
Nah, Mike corrected himself in the comments of last time. AFAIK, the text is with White Wolf for their approval and Mike is starting to lay it out.
>>
>>44718962

Honestly, I never even realized they were in Hunter, and I very much doubt Malcolm did either. But if I were a betting man, I'd say their Hunter appearance was due to Wood Ingham, who has a fondness for them. So they'd probably be compatible. Maybe.
>>
>>44718974
Any sort of ETA on how long layout usually takes?
>>
>>44719056
Not a clue.
>>
>>44719016
I don't know from MtA but these guys were ghosts and it was written by Wendig
>>
>>44719086
ugh
worst compact ever
>>
>>44719173
Seriously.

>we're guilty over...
>um...
>the fact that a political party may have been slightly inspired, then repudiated, by the guys who taught the guys who taught me to feel guilty over it
>btw we're going to kill people for having politics that disagree with us, that'll make us different from the natzees!
>also fuck transhumanist mages
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>>44719314
>btw we're going to kill people for having politics that disagree with us, that'll make us different from the natzees!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw0GvsfOAZE
>>
Can someone post the Silver Ladder guy from Mage again?
>>
>>44719056

Usually it takes around 3-5 weeks if we go by past releases.
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>>44719602
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>>44719861

How HIGH do you even have to BE to DRAW something like THAT?
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>>44719956

It's thematically better than the Obrimos signature character which is a freckled girl on a unicycle.
>>
>>44710981

>David, I'll be honest, I don't think you are necessarily a dick. You seem reasonable when on a chan. But you act like a completely different person when you are on Twitter. I remember when I was trying to have conversation with you last year about GamerGate. While you didn't block me (which is a feat considering how eager people are to censor those they whose opinions they don't like), you have not ignored my arguments and immediately after talking to me tweeted about the "evils" of GG.

>What you say here in this post is reasonable and sound; what you say on Twitter is worrying because I am pretty sure you are one of those people who will fight people on the internet over the myth of wage gap. The amount of hate and passive-aggressiveness on your Twitter is, well, pretty bad. Don't have an eloquent closing for this.

You should consider the context. On Twitter, I get bombarded by idiots talking about how Zoe Quinn censored them or whatever. Then within minutes I get brute force attacks on my email and stuff, because my email is an unethical journalist. So I am pretty short on there. I block people pretty quickly, just because I don't have time for it, and arguing with them isn't going to do anyone any good. Here, the conversation's pretty much targeted toward games, so I don't need to deal with all that shit.

I try not to be passive-aggressive on Twitter. I'm mostly aggressive. I do talk about things like the wage gap, sure. That stuff's important to me. I've done a lot of activism work; I don't just turn that off and clock out.

I do definitely behave differently in different venues. I figure that's pretty much human nature.
>>
>>44720127

David, most of the 2e splats seem to have been given a major bump in power strength and versatility from 1e. Will Changelings similarly receive such treatment?
>>
>>44720302

Yes. More on the versatility side than the direct power side. The base template has a few more abilities, and has some nice stops you can pull via dropping your Mask.

Although, I feel like people might find 2e Contracts a little stronger because they're clearer and not quite so tightly focused (read: limited in usefulness).
>>
>>44720127

But the wage gap has been debunked multiple times by multiple sources. Its a straight up myth that is perpetuated for PR points.

>>44720341

As long as I can still cheat my way through contracts I'm happy.
>>
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>>44718237
>Sign in to continue to Google Drive
>>
>>44720341

I'm actually really glad to hear that the Contracts are a little looser, because that was one of their biggest problems with them. Are they still five dots and telegraphed in power?
>>
I haven't played WoD in a few years. What's the difference between NWoD and Chronicles?
>>
>>44720487
Are we talking about gender or race gap.

I'm assuming this one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States#Explaining_the_gender_pay_gap
>>
>>44720589

nothing. its a rebranding. nwod is in it's second edition though and the new "chronicles of darkness" book is the second edition core rulebook.
>>
>>44720589
chronicles is just the superficial rebranding of nWoD 2e. Corporate/marketing shuffle because of reasons.
>>
>>44720487
>But the wage gap has been debunked multiple times by multiple sources. Its a straight up myth that is perpetuated for PR points.

It's a way more complicated topic than that. Parts are less true than others. It's not a black and white issue.

But, I'm not going to argue about it here. I don't particularly care to. I don't think it'll do any good. And nobody wants to hear it.

But re: Contracts, yeah. They still work more or less the same. They're just broader in scope and I tried making the mechanics at least nominally more robust. I feel like some of the old ones were unnecessarily limiting, like the designers were afraid of abuse or afraid of letting characters be competent. I like what my writers came up with.
>>
>>44720585
>I'm actually really glad to hear that the Contracts are a little looser, because that was one of their biggest problems with them. Are they still five dots and telegraphed in power?

They're ranked 1-5, but not tied to each other for the most part. Some require others as prerequisites. But, if you like a given 3-dot Contract, you can probably buy it without a 1 and 2-dot before it.
>>
>>44720341
The main problem re: power of Contracts in 1e was that most of the Contracts were written as if they would be more powerful than they were. A reasonably built starting Changeling might have only four dice for a Contract that subtracts Resistance or relies on multiple successes.

>>44720487
It's also been continually shown as true. It's almost as if the issue wasn't simple and many people misinterpret the reality of the situation.

>>44720521
>"I don't want to do something simple that will help me out"
Not my problem. How the fuck do you not have a Google account? Do you not watch Youtube?

>>44720589
The new White Wolf doesn't have to deal with our grubby nWoD hands all over their World of Darkness namebrand.
>>
>>44720763
How is that going to work? Because Promethean did something similar, but it was kind of dumb. And with the way that 2e works, with costs being linear, then a three dot contract would just cost one dot's worth of Experiences more than a two dot contract.

i.e.: if I buy a 3 dot Discipline, that's 9 Experiences and I also get dots 2 and 1.

How will you make purchasing rank 3 cheaper than buying ranks 1 and 2 first, without needing to buy those levels?
>>
>>44720341
>The base template has a few more abilities

Is it true that 2e Changelings cannot be physically bound in any way? I believe you made a reference to that in one of your OP forum posts,

Also, have you made major changes to the Pledge system and will Goblin Contracts still be included in 2e?
>>
>>44720799

You know you can watch YouTube without a Google Account, right? Despite the Google Monolith hanging around us, you can still get by without one.
>>
>>44720871
>How is that going to work? Because Promethean did something similar, but it was kind of dumb. And with the way that 2e works, with costs being linear, then a three dot contract would just cost one dot's worth of Experiences more than a two dot contract.

Why does it need to be cheaper? It's a separate ability, doing different things.

If you spend 9 Experiences on a 1, 2, and 3 dot Contract, you have a 1, 2, and 3 dot Contract. Same as if you had a Discipline. However, if you just spend 3 for the three dot Contract, you have that.

The real difference is that sometimes there isn't a 1 and 2-dot. Not everything needs five distinct powers; that leads to speed bump powers and powers that only tangentially fit a theme.
>>
>>44720658
>wikipedia
>majority of studies cited are 20-30 years old
>the latest one is 7 years old and doesn't support a pay gap but point out another problem completely (men being offered higher paying jobs, rather than being payed more for the same job)

the gender pay gap is nonsense and always has been.

>>44720799
>It's also been continually shown as true. It's almost as if the issue wasn't simple and many people misinterpret the reality of the situation.

The "shown as true" part is the misinterpretation. There isn't a gender pay gap, at least not the way that most people think when they here the phrase.

>>44720689
>But re: Contracts, yeah. They still work more or less the same. They're just broader in scope and I tried making the mechanics at least nominally more robust. I feel like some of the old ones were unnecessarily limiting, like the designers were afraid of abuse or afraid of letting characters be competent. I like what my writers came up with.

So are the new ones more limited or less limited? I always liked the idea of Changelings making vague contracts that they could either weasel out of or get way more out of if they played their cards right. That's the whole point of contracts but Equinox Road was basically saying "you can do some crazy shit, but don't."
>>
>>44720906

Correct, they cannot be bound by mundane means.

Pledges are different; Matt wrote them to be more open-ended, and less tied to Merit dots.

Goblin Contracts will be in 2e. There aren't a lot of them, but there's a small handful featured in the core book.
>>
>>44718237
I made a thread but since no one is replying I want to ask you WoDfags
>/tg/, help me, I am obsessed. Tonight I was dreaming and in my dream I met Daniel Hall, the current avatar of the Dreaming from Vertigo.
It's 5 am right now and I can't go back to sleep because I am obsessed with an idea of a Vertigo and wider DC multiverse based roleplay now.
A game where you can be a creature from one of the realms in Orrery of Gods, like Dream and Nightmare or Hell, hell even New Gods and Para-Demons and such could work. The roleplay itself would be lots of strange interdimensional travel with "2deep4u" stuff going on, plot and characters similar to Sandmax and Hellblazer and all of that jazz. Players would get to explore their characters feelings and perspectives on life in a constantly shifting conceptual multiverse.
>Where can I run that? What system would you suggest? I need a game that is mystical, flexible with high power level and lots of different magical classes so I can fluff it as a creature from The Dreaming or a Demon or a New God or a Wizard like Constantine. Also this is one of those few times where I think that a less crunchy system and more of a fluffy system would work better
>Just go with Fate? Maybe some nWoD game like Mage?
Is it possible to run something like that in one of the WoD games? I've had experience with nWoD in past but the campaign crashed badly in 5 sessions so I haven't tested different systems in WoD enough to know if it would work.
>>
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>>44720799
>he thinks watching youtube requires a google account!
>>
>>44718872
because ascension setting is more interesting than awakening
>>
>>44720909
Yeah, but you can't save videos, subscribe, or any of that shit. How do people live like that?

>>44720931
So the ranks don't really mean anything?

>>44720957
What's the reasoning for giving them that ability? And what does "bound" entail? Can a changeling be put in jail?

>>44720976
>this post
>>
>>44720799
There's a problem with a copypasta on an anonymous imageboard that relies on non anonymous accounts with oftentimes onerous signup requirements like having a US phone number cuz "muh anti-spam"
>>
>>44721029

You...you don't? You just watch videos? You don't need an account for everything.
>>
>>44721088
I like to, you know, save them, and keep track of the people I like to watch, and make playlists to listen to in the shower and sometimes even comment.
You don't NEED an account, but not having one means having a small fraction of the experience. I mean, I'm not advocating Youtube Red or anything, but for shits sakes having Gmail means having a Google account, and if you don't have email in this day and age you'd have to be living under a rock. And Gmail is probably one of the best email services.

>>44721047
What?
>>
>>44721029
>How do people live like that?
By not being you.

Perhaps I should explain our human thing called "empathy" and "not everyone is you."
>>
>>44720957

Does Changeling 2e still differentiate "cold iron" from other types of iron, and what effect does it now have on Changelings and Fae?

Will the new core actually present a system to design entirely new Contracts and Pledges, or will that come in a supplement?
>>
>>44721141

People on the anonymous imageboard like to remain anonymous, and would prefer a file hosting system that doesn't involving needing to put down identifying aspects of themselves. I mean, I'm fine with Google Docs myself but I know I'm not going to get any anonymity when I use it.
>>
In Changeling, there' a bit about "Soulless" changelings who came back as sociopaths. How does that dovetail with the effects of soul loss elsewhere like in God-Machine Chronicle?
>>
>>44721141
There are onerous signup requirements that vary by region. That's just a fact.
>>
>>44721305
You can be anonymous. I mean, sometimes I'm working on the docs and I see "Anonymous Zebra" "Anonymous Sloth" "Anonymous Capybara" pop up. Clearly you don't need to be named to be on a Google Doc.

Even beyond that, why do people not have fake emails? Like... you lose out on almost all of the functionality of the internet if you refuse to sign in to places.

>>44721186
I feel like you're missing the source of my confusion.

>>44721492
What is onerous about making a fake gmail account?
>>
Does anyone care about the Hollow Ones anymore? When I originally read about them I though White Wolf was making a playful jab at their own fanbase of 90's wannabe goth occultists, but the more I read the more it seems like we're supposed to take them seriously. Would they be replaced by emo's now? If/when I ever run Ascension, I think I'd just erase from the game/setting entirely. Pic related.
>>
So I'm looking to expand my Masquerade game, and thinking about drawing in some Merits from NWoD as new Backgrounds. Do you guys have any thoughts of NWoD Merits that would work well as OWoD Backgrounds for Vampire? Ideally looking for stuff that already is 1-5 dots.
>>
>>44720957
So 2e changelings are sorta like fetch-spawn were in Autumn Nightmares?

>• Cannot be handcuffed, tied up or otherwise restrained. Locked doors open for them with the slight-est pressure.
>>
>>44721647

No one cares about the Hollow Ones, because they suck. No one except Phil Brucato, who likes them so much that they teamed up with the Crafts to become the Disparate Alliance in Mage20, and they're going to totally save the world from the Nephandi for real this time guys, and do what the Traditions and the Technocracy can't.

Their only downside? They're just too small to do anything. That's it.
>>
>>44721608
Which of the letters "U S P H O N E N U M B E R" are not showing up on your screen, you dense motherfucker.
>>
>>44721608
And yet you can't be on this one, because you've willfully put up a non-anonymous link because of some twisted evangelism for the botnet.
>>
>>44721713
Okay, that makes a lot of sense, I seriously wasn't sure if I was supposed to laugh at them or put them up on a pedestal. Think I'll make a couple poser mages who keep wanting to hang out with the PC's, but are just whiny and pathetic.
>>
>>44721779
Except that you can?
I literally just signed out of Google and I can still view it. Whatever the problem is, it's between keyboard and chair.
>>
>>44721784

I suggest you give their Tradition book a read, just so you're not playing them as a total farce.
>>
Anyone got any good homebrew Tells for Wolfblooded?

Chris?
>>
>>44721872
There is very little to fuck up about clicking on a link, but hey, great, now you're actually conveying information constructively instead of just smugly "why do you hate freedom?" ing.

Maybe it's chrome's fault.
>>
>>44722553
You're the one being smug and asking other people to bend over and make things easier for you all while begging for free things.
>>
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>>44721647

Best mages
>>
>>44721249
>Does Changeling 2e still differentiate "cold iron" from other types of iron, and what effect does it now have on Changelings and Fae?

>Will the new core actually present a system to design entirely new Contracts and Pledges, or will that come in a supplement?

I'm not David, but he just posted the following about iron and Changelings on the OP forum.

"Oh, people were asking about iron I think?

I made it a little more generous a definition. Because "cold iron" is a really subjective term, and would largely reflect things that aren't by any means practical tools or weapons. So, if it's iron enough that people think of it as iron, it's iron, and it counts. Cast iron, wrought iron, cold iron, dramatic irony, if it's iron, it's iron."

Unfortunately David didn't mention anything about a contract or pledge creation system.
>>
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>>44722923
>dramatic irony
Top kek.
>>
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Will there be any exotic places that mages can visit which are filled with other supernatural creatures who are on relatively neutral terms? For example, something like that Troll Market in Hellboy 2.
>>
>>44719408
Hunters turn out to be hypocrites. News at eleven.
>>
http://theonyxpath.com/were-absolute-beginners/

Here's the latest Monday Meeting Notes, since they aren't in this thread yet.

in WoD news:

>Shattered Dreams's Stretch Goals for Werewolf the Apocalypse is in Redlines

>Changeling the Lost 2e is now in development.

>Kinfolk for Werewolf the Apocalypse is now in development.

>Mage the Awakening 2e, like DaveB said, is off at White Wolf.

>Promethean the Created 2e is ready for approval when the rest of Ron's art rolls in.
>>
>>44723020

The troll market was basically the equivalent of a goblin market from Changeling, and there would be no reason why Mages couldn't attend.

If you want something strictly within the Mage cosmology, a troll market would probably be some sort of bazaar in an astral realm,the shadow, or even a dead domain in the underworld.
>>
>>44723020

Wherever they want, mages are the most powerful thing ever and they're welcome and feared everywhere and they can kill you just by looking at you and my dad is a mage and works at onyx path
>>
Anyone here plans to go on that Milwaukee con?
>>
>>44723113
Er, Mage 2es place confuses me. It's art is approved, but text isn't? And once the text is, *then* it's in full layout, or will be finished with layout, or...
Not the most clear.
>>
>>44722684
What bending over is involved. Either it's set to allow anonymous access or it's not, and the latter doesn't make any sense to do intentionally.

If anon is factually wrong about it not having anonymous access, you explain to them how it works fine, you don't question the legitimacy of why would anyone ever possibly need anonymous access. That just starts a completely pointless and unproductive argument.
>>
>>44723343
"Change this for me" is asking people to bend over backwards. Whether it's reasonable or not, people shouldn't demand that they do. If you can't access it and you choose not to take the steps to be able to, that's on you. No one is obligated to make it easier for you to access it.

And as far as I can see, it's allowing anonymous access. It's not about why anyone would possibly ever need anonymous access--although that argument is ridiculous for several reasons--it's about getting an attitude when free stuff isn't free *enough*.
>>
Is instant casting in 2e still useful for combat and self defense?
>>
>>44723472
Yes? Why wouldnt it be?
>>
>>44723340

Final layout always waits until final approval since any changes could affect layout. Absent significant changes by Paradox, final layout and proofing should be done quickly.
>>
>>44723113

Great, we can expect all this stuff by november then
>>
>>44723607
kinfolk and changeling probably but mage and promethean look like they're comin soon
>>
>>44723607

Sure, November 2019.
>>
>>44723607

Mage actually, honestly might be out by late January/early February if Paradox finds little to no fault with it.
>>
>>44720963
You could run it in just about any system.
A lot of the challenges you'll run into as ST will be fluff based, and very dependent on your players going along for the ride with you, especially for a setting like that.
>>
>>44722923
>housewives are now the bane of Changelings everywhere
>>
>>44724529
iron chef ironic housewife ironing
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>>44723122
I think it mentioned in goblin market that mages not only go to the market they run sonw stalls
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>>44724921
They run the rigged ball throwing games and sell flavored ice shavings for the cost of real ice cream
>>
>>44724953

Damn, those mages are real bastards!
>>
>>44724953

For this I will not stand
>>
>>44724953

Those aren't ice shavings, they're frozen souls...
>>
>>44724953

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJOZYaXxBaU
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>>44725104
Swimming in syrup and artificial coloring.
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>>44724529
Maybe when technology didn't advance to the point where irons are actually made of steel.
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>>44725270
>Swimming in syrup and artificial coloring.

Which just so happens to be sculpted out of the ephemera from homicidal shadow spirits.
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>>44726187
But so delicious!
>>
>>44724953
>Asshole Mastigos pastimes #494368: bend the fabric of space to make it literally impossible to hit the bottle for the biggest prize
>>
>>44726311
Truly, they are kin to demons.
>>
Re-asking this >>44722080
I'm looking for new Tells for some of my Wolfbloods.
>>
"Some abilities are on all
the time, such as Modifications and some Propulsions, while
others such as Technologies and Processes must be activated."

I'm having a good bit of confusion regarding this. In order to access Demonic Form abilities, I need to transform in some manner correct? Or, are modifications and propulsions on at all times even when out of demonic form?
>>
>>44726512
No, they're on all the time as long as you're in Demon Form.

Put another way, the powers are always on... they're just not always on YOU.
>>
>>44726553
Alright, thank you very much.

In addition to that, could you answer this as well? Does the Hellfire Exploit work with the Eliminator Cannon process? It doesn't technically say that the Cannon is a firearm, but I really like the idea of having an infernal grenade launcher.
>>
>>44726589
It could.
>>
Just how scary is a true fae in the mortal world to a bunch of other mortals?
>>
This isn't WoD, but my first dnd session ever involved my high elf chaotic good male ROGUE getting gang raped by quag after belly dancing an 18 in order to try and seduce a distraction to escape drow prison level 1 dungeon.
>>
You know, LEGION could be an interesting way to play DtD, mostly because of the amount of angels involved in playing the damn thing. Just to clarify your are gonna need 20 angels for this, one set of a Destroyer, Guardian, Messenger, Psychopomp and Analyst for each Agenda.
>>
>>44726719
>This isn't WoD,
Then why are you talking about it here then?
>>
>>44726719
>This isn't WoD
Then why does it matter?
>>
>>44718738
Nope. Faerie is obviously a layered Lower Depths realm. Lacking a whole lot of things, Creativity among them. The Causality down there is pretty spotty too.
>>
>>44726719

Fuck off.
>>
>>44721020
I'll bite. Why?
>>
>>44724258
>>44723624
Keep dreaming.
GenCon release is just as likely.
>>
>>44723607
>>44723668
This horse is so dead, if you keep beating it any further it'll go into stack overflow and come back to life.
>>
>>44727332
I kind of want a horse Tammuz now.
>>
I imagine that in a freehold, those that're capable of hand-working iron probably make a living doing something similar, how do you suppose the average cyclopean or what have you would deal with a request for such a thing from some guy who is clearly just human?
>>
>>44722080
I haven't really needed to come up with any new Tells as yet, there are plenty for my needs in the Appendix thus far.
>>
>>44727469
I don't know, how would you respond to someone who asked you to make a weapon that deals aggravated damage to you?
>>
I'm new, what the hell does 'blue book' mean.

What's the antonym of blue book.
>>
>>44727742
A "blue book" in the context of CofD is any "generic" or "mortal" supplement, like "Armory", "Asylum" or "Tales from the 13th Precinct".

They are called "blue books" because they use the blue mortals hue, not to be confused with the deeper blue of Geist.
>>
>>44727634
Cold Iron only deals aggrevated damage to true fae. To changelings it just ignores a lot of their magic bullshit. A guy wearing cold-iron full plate and wielding a cold-iron blade would be immune to....pretty much all changeling magic that directly targeted him, as I understand it.
>>
>>44727469
Well you could follow them back to their house at night and murder them just to be safe.

Or just do the illegal equivalent of a background check and have your friends stalk them a while to confirm they're just a LARPing otherkin.
>>
>>44727802
Don't worry, Geist has no supplements so it doesn't matter for distinction in the first place. Damnit I'm still salty about that, I mean sure they really needed more plasm generation but it was a fun looking splat.
>>
What skill would be used for flying drones?
I'm sketching up a demon character here, and she'll make heavy use of camera multirotors.
>>
>Ctrl-F 'degeneration' in God-Machine Chronicles
>just one result saying those are 1e and have been replaced with breaking points in this rules update

>Ctrl-F 'degeneration' in Chronicles of Darkness
>Somehow they replaced the references to breaking point rolls with ones to degeneration rolls in the text for Mind of a Madman and the Shaken Condition

How does that even happen? How do they go backwards in time?
>>
>>44728682
If you do not call her Sahaquiel I will me mildly miffed.
>>
>>44728981
>How do they go backwards in time?
The company is called Paradox, wasn't it obvious this would happen?
>>
>>44728136
Working on it
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SMgt9996QXnCahP_B6acce9_vZuj5myu_3RC7JYygpw/edit
>>
>>44729014
>Sahaquiel
I... I don't get that reference.
If you explain it to me, I might name her that.
>>
>>44729301
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Sahaquiel

By the way, the Hebrew is misspelled. The proper way of naming the Archangel of the Sky would be "Shahaquiel", H after the first S. Might be because the letter used to create the "Sh" sound is also often used to make an "S" sound (Hebrew has two different letters for many sounds English uses just one for).

Also, the second syllable (the "Ha") needs to be pronounced like a Spanish "Ja" (like in Juan), not like "Huh".
>>
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>Aspirations are goals that your character wishes to accomplish.

>Sample Short-Term Aspirations
>Get beat up by the school bully.

This went to a strange place. Somehow stranger than 'Put myself in mortal danger,' which is at least conceivable as an adrenaline rush, not pure masochism.

Of course in God-Machine Chronicle at first I almost thought aspirations were OOC goals for the player, not IC goals of the character, seeing examples given like 'Become psychic' and 'Become a vampire.' Then that would almost make sense.
>>
>>44729338
But the Tenth Angel was a colony drop, not autonomous flying spybots.
>>
>>44729338
>>44729357
Yeah. What does that have to do with drones?
Also.. naming oneself after an archangel sounds... eeh... hubristic on levels only dreamed up by the Silver Ladder.
>>
>>44729387
Technically the demon wouldn't be naming theirself that.

That would be your slave name.
>>
>>44729417
Not necessarily. I could see Demons (especially Integrators, or Saboteurs with a weird sense of humour) grabbing angelic names.
>>
>>44729342
>Of course in God-Machine Chronicle at first I almost thought aspirations were OOC goals for the player, not IC goals of the character
They can be either, if you bother to read the sentence after the one you quoted:
>Aspirations are goals that your character wishes to accomplish. They’re also statements about the sort of stories you want to tell about your character.
Or a few paragraphs down:
>It is also okay to select Aspirations that your character doesn’t want, but that you want to see happen to the character.
>>
>>44729342
>Of course in God-Machine Chronicle at first I almost thought aspirations were OOC goals for the player, not IC goals of the character, seeing examples given like 'Become psychic' and 'Become a vampire.' Then that would almost make sense.
They're both.
>>
>>44728981
>Somehow they replaced the references to breaking point rolls with ones to degeneration rolls in the text for Mind of a Madman and the Shaken Condition
Did you point this out in the errata thread?
>>
>>44730093
But then they might fix it, and we wouldn't be able to complain about it here
>>
>>44727095

The text is at White Wolf for approval. That's pretty much almost over, save for any layout changes due to White Wolf's request.

>>44730093

Might want to hurry about that. CofD core Errata is finishing up this week.
>>
>>44730385
>The text is at White Wolf for approval. That's pretty much almost over, save for any layout changes due to White Wolf's request.

Has any book that was sent to Paradox actually been released?
>>
>>44730432
Yes, CofD.
>>
>>44730432
The Demon Storyteller's Guide.
>>
>>44730432
M20: How Do You Do That?
Demon's Storyteller Guide
Chronicles of Darkness
>>
>>44730432
CofD core took forever because it was waiting on the name change decision.

The rest of them have been fast.
>>
>>44730385
>>44730432
Daily reminder that Fallen World Chronicle's original projected release was Fall 2014.
>>
>>44730920

>A year and a half late

Good golly Miss Molly. Could be worse though. There's one RIFTS book that took a decade to come out, and one that was announced in the late 90s and is still being described as "in-writing".
>>
>>44731236
Reminder that OPP considers Oct-Dec “Fall”. We're just over a year late.
>>
>>44731236

It could also be Exalted 3e, for a more recent example.
>>
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>>44732552
>>
So what do you think about the new
last witch hunter movie.

I find it extremely WoD related.
>>
>>44728682
>What skill would be used for flying drones?

Drive with a Specialty in Drones.
>>
>>44732838
Yeah... That feels slightly less un-fitting than Computers...
>>
>>44726696

Pretty fucking scary.
>>
>>44726696
Depends on how the True Fae presents itself. It could extremely scary, or beautiful, or ridiculous but no matter how it 'looks' it is without a doubt extremely dangerous. Whether it's there to kidnap or just play some precocious prank that kills a few hundred kids.
>>
>>44733013
In a weird twist of fate, it might just be there to look around for a bit.
In which case it's merely dangerous for those that catch it's attention.
>>
>>44732552

That's still not technically out, is it? Who boy am I glad I was never tempted to get in on that.
>>
>>44733485
The backer preview is out, which is out enough for anyone who doesn't hate pdfs/absolutely refuse to pirate things.
>>
>>44733377
funny i remember a story in the core book i think about a fae seeing its changeling and giving it a cookie or something like that
>>
>>44733709
The thought of that brings a smile to my face.
>>
>>44732008
All publishers do.
>>
>>44734539

Does "Spring" and "Winter" not exist for publishing times?
>>
>>44734793
No. By the word of an ancient contract.
>>
>>44734793
It's later.
>https://www.swoonreads.com/blog/winter-spring-summer-fall-wait-what/

Though seasonal spans differ from house to house, a very general definition is as follows:

Fall: August or September through November.
Winter: December through March.
Spring/Summer: April through July or August.
>>
>>44734793
Winter: Jan-Mar
Spring: Apr-June
Summer: July-Sept
Autumn: Oct-Dec

That's the traditional meaning of it.
>>
>>44730385
Yeah, if I remember, DaveB said he gave the layout files to Mike around Dec 20th, so we are on track for the usual time it takes for layout (about 3 weeks). Proofing took about 2-3 weeks for dtd stg.
Soooooo, late January?
>>
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1452636386718.webm

>David Attenborough shilling for The Forsaken
>>
>>44735087
Yeah. Dream on.
>>
Is there a compiled nWoD 2e/oWoD20 (M20, V20, etc.) MEGA bin yet?

Is it ok to ask if you guys could rate my VtM/V20 character? I think I asked before, but I didn't get any definitive criticism as to what was/I did wrong.

Here's the VCS file, for those interested: https://mega.nz/#!VVh2gToC!gfgWnAn8wuwYhHCJ5gMwsDGTpVSkavjvjiQuGtnvenE

You'll need to VtM character creator to view it, which I found here: http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/chargen.html

Thanks in advance!

In an effort to contribute, I noticed that the OP is missing the Mr. Gone character sheets link. Here it is for those interested: http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/
>>
OPP will first release an editorially-deficient "advanced copy" PDF of Mage 2e and then solicit substantial errata for a few weeks. The "final, final" Mage 2e will not be released for at least a couple of months after than, at which point people will be able to order a physical copy.
>>
>>44735445
>for at least a couple of months after
the other 2e cores were much faster
>>
>>44734793
The transitional months are included in the season they transition out of, since the majority of days are in that season. For example, 21 days in March are Winter, while only 10 days in March are Spring, so March gets included in Winter. 21 days in December are Fall, while only 10 days in December are Winter, so December gets included in Fall.
>>
>>44735445

For me the "advanced copy" might as well be its official release.

>>44734843
>>44734869

Thanks, that clears things up a lot!
>>
>>44735430

Shit, forgot to add the concept:

Character was turned by his sire because his sire thought my character was his long dead gay lover come back to life. PC then decided to tell his parents because he didn't want them worrying about him.

He was then adopted by the six-year-old daughter of a ghoul (yes, you read that correctly) who was looking for a master because her "mommy and daddy had a master who took care of them (read: didn't *really* treat them like shit for bullshit reasons) and so they took care of their master." Legally, PC is her guardian.

Any pointers or criticisms or trolling posts that try to induce an abnormal amount of rage?
>>
>>44735577
>For me the "advanced copy" might as well be its official release.

Some "advanced copies" are far better than others.

For instance, the CofD book needs a LOT of errata (and other) material fixed. Werewolf even had some big problems like including the wrong Rahu Hunter's Aspect. I also heard that Exalted 3 needs a lot of work.
>>
New hunter open dev to grumble about, everyone.
http://theonyxpath.com/hunter-2e-open-dev-slash-slash-slashers/
>>
>>44735691

Meh. Although Monica seems excited about the Hunter material, she really doesn't seem to possess a firm vision of what she wants for the revised line and how to achieve it. That might have been acceptable at the very beginning, but she's now been developer for months and needs to be more of a leader than fan community organizer.

Additionally, as if we didn't have enough name confusion, she's discussing focusing on tells (Werewolf) and cabals (Mage) for Slashers. Ugh.
>>
>>44736136
Hunter always had Tells, and Slasher groups were always called cabals.
>>
>>44736136
>Name confusion
Demon
Beast

Also, I don't know. I'm a little in the same camp, but the impression I get is that she has ideas, but wants to see how people react to them before putting them in stone. It feels like she's trying to do a lot more Open Dev than anyone else, and it also feels like this is a way earlier glimpse. Then again, Changeling started pretty early.
>>
>>44727996

Does this included cold iron made/transmuted by a matter mage?
>>
>>44736423
No
>>
>>44736257
>>44736407

I'm aware of the use of the terminology in 1e. Since I believe we already have more than enough repetitive and confusing naming issues in the CofD, I was hoping Hunter would try to correct the problem.

I also get the impression that Monica is trying to "democratize" much of Hunter development. Her intentions are certainly noble, but I fear a "game by committee" that seeks to please everyone will ultimately please very few, particularly because the people who actually comment and provide feedback are a very small, albeit vocal, minority of the Hunter fanbase.

Open development and strong and firm leadership and vision are not mutually exclusive.
>>
>>44736674
>I'm aware of the use of the terminology in 1e
You clearly weren't
>>
>>44736423
>>44736445

Changeling 2e has eliminated any distinctions between iron and cold iron, and now anything that is perceived as iron and can reasonably fit the description will have the same effect.

As so little information has been spoiled about the new iron rules, it's unclear if mage transmuted iron will be treated differently than otherwise mundane iron.

A similar question is whether mage siderite, or "perfected iron," will be treated like mundane iron. If we're lucky, DaveB will answer this questions in Signs of Sorcery. Given Dave's aversion to crossover issues, I doubt we'll receive a definitive answer, and all mage iron questions will probably be let to ST fiat.
>>
>Huntsmen are created intentionally by a complicated ritual
Ugh. I was more interested in them when I thought they were just a natural extension of a Fae's rage. I get that Fae feel everything more intensely (and that they can feel love is better than the whole Hollywood Autistic thing they had going on) but at that point they might as well just go do things themselves. Although I do like the Mr Meeseeks aspect.

>>44736674
Why would they change it? If they wanted to avoid confusion, they wouldn't have used two of the most used words as titles for their new gamelines.

Also, for Hunter, I think it's the line that most benefits from asking the audience, for the reasons Monica brought up in the blog. It's a game line that was all about customization. You could play a Hunter game that barely resembled your traditional World of Darkness setting, even if a lot of people just straight up used Requiem Vampires and Awakening Witches.

>>44736774
It's always been weird that no one ever has a problem with Silver--which does so much more damage directly to player characters--is so much easier to acquire than Cold Iron. Do True Fae come up in people's games that often?
>>
>>44736821
EXISTENCE IS PAIN FOR A HUNTSMAN, SPRING-HEELED JERRY! NOW COME WITH ME BACK TO YOUR KEEPER!
>>
>>44736821

As another anon indicated, there's no longer any difference between "regular" iron and "cold iron," and it seems all iron will now have a greater effect on changelings.

A lot of people also had (and have) issues with silver, such as how pure does the silver have to be, and do silver plating or silver compounds act just like silver nitrate, to say nothing about the endless debates concerning the combat effectiveness and durability of silver blades and bullets.
>>
>>44736674

>Open development and strong and firm leadership and vision are not mutually exclusive.

Tell that to the people who've been grumbling for years about how Open Development for Onyx Path amounts to "Look at this thing I'm doing. What do you think about that? Well, it's not really changing so here you go."

There's also not really much of a change in vision needed for Hunter 2e. The themes don't need fine tuning as much as the mechanics do, hence Monica's philosophy of "Wendig pretty much got the tone right the first time, now we're just smoothing things out".
>>
>>44737216
I've never actually seen much argument over silver. Though most books have pointed out that silver nitrate doesn't count (but does make the Pure itchy).
>>
Why are SA6+ spirits considered plot devices, but not SA6-10 PC splats?
>>
>>44738280
Ephemeral ranks are basically twice player supernatural ranks. They don't scale the same.
A SA10 PC is comparable to a powerful Rank 5 spirit.
>>
>>44738418
Just did a quick check using MS Paint and it seems part way into SA8 is when PC plats match the power of a Rank 5 Spirit (specific splat and powers available not included).

So that's intentional, good to know.
>>
>>44738485
>using MS Paint
What?
>>
>>44738418
>>44738418
>>44738485
>A SA10 PC is comparable to a powerful Rank 5 spirit.

That's not *entirely* consistent with Imperial Mysteries for Mage. Archmasters regularly deal with rank 6+ spirits, and not all Archmasters are Gnosis 10.
>>
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What games have you always wanted to try but never will due to player disinterest?
>>
>>44738514
>using MS Paint

I guess rank 5 spirits and SA8 PC's have the same level of Artistic power.
>>
>>44738538
Changeling the Dreaming
>>
>>44738538
Shadowrun
>>
>>44738633

I think what >>44738538
was trying to ask was that the game in question be WoD related.
>>
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>>44738514
Welcome to autismville.
>>
>>44738676
I've never had a problem getting my group interested in a WoD game

Some of the games themselves have sucked ass, tho (geist/mage/changelingdreaming/demonfallen)
>>
>>44738687
Do you mean MS spreadsheet, or did you make a line graph in MS paint instead of using a better program for some strange reason...?

Also, what is this even comparing? Your axes and lines are unlabeled.

>>44738724
>>44738633
Solution: Run Shadowrun with WoD rules.
>>
>>44738902
>Solution: Run Shadowrun with WoD rules.
Too much work, then the disinterest spreads to me
>>
Have there been any (official or house) rules for the second edition/GMC which enable us to play ghosts as player characters?
>>
>>44738986
>play the memory of a dead person
y
>>
>>44738528
Archmasters measure their potency by their Arcana dots, not by their Gnosis.

There's a reason Gnosis 6 is called out as the easiest of the multiple requirements for Archmastery.
>>
>>44739001

It sounds very intriguing, only the weakest ghosts are stuck as essentially looping images. Also, the game need not take place in the material world; the Underworld sounds interesting, especially since it is where ghosts can become more powerful like other supernatural beings.

You might as well argue that there is no point to playing mind uploads (such as "Ghosts" in Transhuman Space and "Infomorphs" in Eclipse Phase) in a science fiction game since they are just whole brain emulation copies of now dead characters.
>>
>>44739200
>You might as well argue that there is no point to playing mind uploads (such as "Ghosts" in Transhuman Space and "Infomorphs" in Eclipse Phase) in a science fiction game since they are just whole brain emulation copies of now dead characters.
As they are alive, they can still grow.

Ghosts are just memories until something else changes them
>>
>>44738981
I've been wanting to do that. I don't think you'd need too much, though. I saw a thing that was just "add a dot to Availability for implants".

>>44739233
Ghosts--especially ghosts in the Underworld--can grow and change. In fact, there ARE rules for playing ghost PCs, and you can gain Experience Points as normal.
>>
>>44739481

Where might I find these rules, good sir?
>>
Anybody made a space-focused Acanthus with the shadow name Ziggy, in honor of Bowie, yet?
>>
>>44739623
Given that it specifies the Underworld, it's probably in Book of the Dead, the sourcebook about the Underworld.

Also
>that image
This isn't Reddit, friend.
>>
>>44739623
>>44739869
Actually, it's in Mummy's core.

>>44739869
That's... a 4chan image.
>>
>>44738981
The Core book has some cyberpunk flavor to it. Try running a mortals game.
>>
i did it /wodg/. I got to make out with my demonic employer in this Hunter campaign i'm playing in. I am a hero.
>>
>>44740064
What did it ask for in exchange?
>>
>>44740134
my womb
>>
>>44740194
Lovely.
I can't see a single way this could possibly go awry.
>>
>>44740194
Prepare to give birth to a demon child
>>
>>44740202
lol i was kiddin' i'm a stigmatic and he's actually contractually obliged to protect me from the God-Machine but also he's super hot so my character is trying to figure out what's going on in his demon brain and also get some.
>>
>>44740266

Demon can still cuck you though. Get a babby in the oven by someone other than the demon and they make a contract writing you or the other guy out of being the biological parent.

Also why isn't this a more common demon tactic?
>>
>>44740340
You just KNOW there's one Demon out there who runs a pact racket, becoming the baby-daddy of dozens of teenagers who don't want their lives falling apart around them.
>>
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>>44740550
>>44740340

Demons are pretty weird.
>>
Demons, how the fuck do they work, again? Specifically with their Covers.

Do they just have to be unobserved to switch?
>>
>>44740648

Now I wonder if it means that Demons with cover can just genderbend at will and have several female covers pregnant at once and birth all the stigmatics piss off the machine.

Also as much as I'm against it, stigmatics is a minor template but couldn't demons either use contracts or even their nasty boxes to create hybrid drek like wolfblooded stigmatics to really grind the God-Machine's gears?
>>
>>44740648
When you've got complete autonomous control over the meat-sheath your quantum brain is currently occupying, things are bound to get weird.
>>
>>44740860
Kids of Demons aren't really stigmatics.
They're freaky part demons the God-Machine really wants to get its robotic claws on.

So really, wantonly creating Offspring with no real plan could be exceptionally counterproductive.
>>
So assuming that the information on the Tremere in the Left Handed Path book is correct, and they weren't really the result of Vampires nom nom noming on Mage souls...

What DOES happen when a Vampire drinks from one with an Awakened soul?

I kinda need to know for when a Vampire tries to feed from a sub-soul from another universe, long story. I'm thinking it temporarily connects them to that other universe, where they were still human, and they get to truly feel what it's like to be alive again.
>>
>>44740893

Bear with me now because this could be crazy.

What if there was a demon cell that constantly made all these babbys to distract the god-machine and fuck with it's infrastructure with a literal baby boom while they create specific hybrids to counter the God-Machine.

By creating minor connections with the children through proxies and just maybe allowing the kids to be picked up by the God-Machine you could have sleeper agent at birth nestled in the God-Machine's infrastructure and then you instigate a schism within the baby boom and secretly sponsor some of the kids so they curry it's favor but are also subservient to you.

I wouldn't be surprised that these children could cause glitches and just maybe clog a command and control infrastructure as well if the GM tries to put them into the fold with their Xavier School allegory.

Hell it wouldn't be that hard to have the kids rebel against GM because we always know that they want to piss off mommy/daddy, it's the Demon's way of life.
>>
>>44740648
>That image...
>Gender is fluid and gender expression does not always relate to reproductive capability in the real world.

What?
>>
>>44741285
As many people will be happy to talk to you at length about, sex is what's between your legs, gender is what you want to say you are.

So someone could physically be a woman (sex), and identify as a man (gender), and yet still be able to have children.
>>
>>44740989
>What DOES happen when a Vampire drinks from one with an Awakened soul?
If I remember right, the Mage dies, and the Vampire bursts into flame and dies.
>>
In what ways might an ascended archmage (or better yet a group of ascended archmasters) interfere with, control, destroy, and/or make to not exist in the first place the God-Machine? Can such beings still enact the Imperium on their "side"? If so can't they (or an archmage seeking ascension if not) just make a new reality where the God-Machine does not exist?
>>
>>44741285

Every major OPP book has one or more sidebars about gender identity and fluidity or similar issues, and some are far less mild or diplomatic often going as far as openly castigating the reader if they do not entirely agree with such views.

Since my enjoyment of the most of the WW products outweigh the annoyance of preachy SJW proclamations, I've learned to simply roll my eyes,take deep breadth, and move on, just like I did many ages ago during college, one of the only places in the real world where such material can ever be considered "normal."
>>
>>44741412

The God Machine is obviously an Exarch...

Also, there's a rumor that an archmage actually almost killed the God Machine as part of his Imperium. Shockingly, the new reality was so broken and horrible that other archmasters were forced to restore the God Machine. Apparently, the God Machine somehow keeps the Abyss at bay. Who knew?
>>
>>44741536

Of course it was an archmage the one who killed the God-Machine and of course it was another archmage the one who revived it

Who would've thunk
>>
>>44741364

Though doesn't this mean that sex instead has the sole bearing over reproduction (hence the text's sole mention of gender appearing odd)? You could, for instance, have a man who thinks he is female that therefore cannot have kids. Why not just start with straight up saying that Demons transcend sex, being fragments of a god, and can this will pregnancy to work?

Conversely I could easily see demons doing something similar to what is seen in the game setting "Transhuman Space"--though minus said setting's hard scifi--with the creation of an an artificial womb for said baby.
>>
>>44741536
>>44741634

So are archmages and the ascended kin the most powerful beings in this setting's cosmology?
>>
>>44741731
Because they wanted to get a little dig in first before they mentioned the extra-dimensional reality-fucking robot-abominations don't give that much of a fuck about gender when they overwrite causality.
>>
>>44741794
Archmages aren't all supremely powerful beings.
Some are merely somewhat stronger than a normal Master of an Arcanum.
All you need is Gnosis 6 and one Arcanum at 6 to be an Archmaster.

However they are some of the most powerful beings in the universe, bar the Exarchs, Oracles, those who have fully Ascended, the rulers of certain higher (and lower) realms, and some God-powered Spirits.
>>
>>44741853
In fact, until an Archmage casts various spells (possibly including Imperial ones) to boost themselves they are squishy as any other human outside of their Chantries and Roads.
>>
>>44741794
>So are archmages and the ascended kin the most powerful beings in this setting's cosmology?
Hahahaha no.

The book about Archmages goes into how they're weaker than everything else in their weight class.
>>
>>44741804

My point was, if we assume for the sake of argument that the first portions pulling upon this argued difference between "sex" and gender," this really concerns "sex." In other words, if it is as >>44741364 said then mentioning gender is irrelevant in the first place (i.e "fucking about gender" would just mean the demon ends up thinking that it is the opposite sex instead of changing its sex).
>>
>>44742044
>then mentioning gender is irrelevant in the first place
Well of course it is.
But what modern publisher could resist the temptation to include such a juicy bit of social rights fanservice, which is utterly un-criticisable unless you want to brand yourself as a sexist?
>>
>>44741794
>>44741853

Archmasters are undoubtedly the most powerful beings that are currently officially playable as PC's. As Imperial Mysteries explains, their adversaries are other archmasters, old gods, rank 6+ spirits, and similarly powerful beings. Archmasters are neither omnipotent nor omniscient, but they are not to be trifled with by anyone not of the same power class.

Imperial Mysteries further explains that the relatively few archmasters have not totally broken the world due to an informal understandng called the Pax Arcana. This basically states that open use of top tier powers or otherwise screwing-up reality too badly will be corrected and punished with extreme prejudice by other archmasters. It's the mutually assured destruction of the CofD.

It's unclear how archmaster relate to or are connected to the God Machine, if at all. There's no official explanation, and I don't believe DaveB as ever provided a serious response.

If you haven't read Imperial Mysteries, I would highly recommend it. There's a lot of great stuff in it, and DaveB was an author.
>>
>>44741853
>>44742023
>>44742024


In that case what about the ascended beings? Are they directly untouchable (unless a second silver ladder is made)? Similarly, can they still use the Imperium and are they still limited to using archmastery scale magic via their avatars?
>>
>>44742099
Imperial Mysteries does suggest "a god-machine" being an Old God trying to re-ascend. This was way before GMC and Demon, though.
>>
>>44742099
It's also got a lovely little snippit in it which is quite interesting (despite the fact it was written before the God-Machine chronicles).

"Starved of rightful Supernal power, the gods hunger. While Alienated could simply reap souls to feed their patrons, this is actually the least efficient method. Founding a religion is challenging, but channels human spiritual power in a more refined, potent fashion. It might also be possible to secretly change the world into an occult engine for a Fallen God: a Mystery Play that returns it to power. The ententes believe at least one such “God Machine” already exists."
>>
>>44742024
>The book about Archmages goes into how they're weaker than everything else in their weight class.

Huh? It totally depends on the individual archmage. Among the top tier, some (mostly new archmages) are towards the bottom, some middle, and some are effectively untouchable, unknowable gods.

>>44742023
>In fact, until an Archmage casts various spells (possibly including Imperial ones) to boost themselves they are squishy as any other human outside of their Chantries and Roads.

Virtually every archmage has employed imperial spells to permanently render themselves anything but squishy. They also have the unstoppable ability to reflexively escape into their Golden Roads at any time from anywhere

For all practical purposes, archmasters are human in name only.
>>
>>44742130
>>44742158

I totally forgot about the old god-machine reference before OP published the GMC. Imperial Mysteries was a great book that was ahead of its time.

Talking about religion, I loved the reference to the archmaster who accidentally created Christianity and promises to correct his mistake.
>>
>>44742118
>In that case what about the ascended beings? Are they directly untouchable (unless a second silver ladder is made)? Similarly, can they still use the Imperium and are they still limited to using archmastery scale magic via their avatars?

Ascended beings, archmasters and otherwise, cannot be directly affected unless one can enter the Supernal Realms. They normally act through ochemata, or subsouls, in the Fallen World, and are extremely powerful.

Not much is really know about their true power.
>>
>>44742206
Compare an Archmaster with one Arcanum at 8 to a Rank 8 Spirit.
>>
>>44742288
>Talking about religion, I loved the reference to the archmaster who accidentally created Christianity and promises to correct his mistake.

What was the shadow name of this archmage and in what book can this be read? Amusingly, in at least two of my GMed games I went with Buddha being an archmage who ascended and Jesus being a Purified Immortal.
>>
>>44742345

A Rank 8 spirit is the very top of the high-end power class, and includes beings like Luna, Helios, etc. An archmaster with one arcanum at 8 would indeed be less powerful. However, a number of archmasters have multiple arcana at 8, and some with a ratings of 9 in one or more. These archmasters are certainly in the same league, and more than a match for a rank 6 or 7 spirit.
>>
>>44742380
Imperial Mysteries
"The Libertine Basileus claims that Europe’s leading religion used to be the cult of Sol Invictus. In 1977, the archmage Hyperion Ascended in union with the God Mithras. This erased much of the deity’s history, so that the world now believes Christianity, not the Unconquered Church, spread throughout the West. Basileus points to the common sign of the cross, and the apparent contradiction of a Roman ritual official (the Pontifex Maximus) controlling an Abrahamic sect."
pg. 46
I think that's it.
>>
>>44742206
>They also have the unstoppable ability to reflexively escape into their Golden Roads at any time from anywhere
>For all practical purposes, archmasters are human in name only.

While I will try not to argue that this directly makes them gods it does raise a very interesting question. This being: Are they humans anymore after the threshold seeking? Seeing that their bodies are created whenever they leave their roads (and that they do not age or have bodily needs while 'within it') are they not then actually their roads?

The only apparent case where this might be disproved is how they can still die. Yet, the road remains and begins to essentially metaphysically rot whenever that occurs. That gives me the impression that 'bodily' death for an archmaster is more like "death in the matrix" than a human death.

What do you other anons think about this?
>>
>>44742435

There's also page 84,

"Achamán accumulates 5 points of Aponoia from the Exaltation Rites he attempted in the previous example. He previously earned 2 Aponoia from a Lustrum in which he did not attempt the Exaltation Rite, but forced himself to stay longer in order to counter an enemy. Dave rolls 7 dice, scoring 3 successes. The cult Achamán created to serve his Bound Lord transforms into a Roman mystery religion. In this world, the cult survived alongside Christianity, and a great deal of tension now exists between the pagan-fundamentalist United States and liberal, European Christendom. Achamán refines his Noumenon, adding a 3-dot Omen that, once Exalted, will undo these changes."
>>
>>44742491
I think trying to define what is and is not Human is a pointless and futile question.
The important part is what is and what is not of their soul.
Their Golden Road isn't truly a part of their soul, it is something they created with it, and is maintained by it, it is a representation of their Magic, their connection to the Supernal, incorporating all that they know of the 10 practices into their Lustrum, and anchored by their Supernal Cintamani.
>>
>>44742491

Are basic mages, no less archmasters, still really human? I view them as the equivalent of a new species or subspecies. Home sapiens magicis?

In the CofD, what makes humans human?
>>
>>44742680

Given the apparent updates and revisions to supernal "geography" in Mage 2e (e.g., the Supernal World vs. the Supernal Realms), Dave will definitely need to update Imperial Mysteries for setting comparability, to say nothing of the imperative of updating the Imperial Practices.

I, for one, would be first in line to buy Imperial Mysteries 2e or its equivalent!
>>
>>44742802
He's said there's no intention to make a 2e Imperial Mysteries at this time.
>>
>>44742974

I recall Dave stating he already figured out how to update the archmaster material, and he would try to include it in a book when he has an opportunity. However, I doubt we'll ever see a revised IM.
>>
>>44742425
An Archmaster with Arcana at 7 is not as powerful as a Rank 7 Spirit either.
>>
>>44743047
>>44742974

I think at this point we're not going to see "1e book, 2e" but rather brand new books that'll address parts of 1e. Like how Hurt Locker is about combat but it isn't explicitly Armory 2e.
>>
>>44743100

We don't need an Imperial Mysteries 2e. The book easily stands on its own, and all relevant setting and rules could probably be updated to be compatible with 2e with a few concisely written pages. It would be a perfect appendix for any Mage supplement. I just hope Dave finds a way to include it somewhere before it's time for Mage 3e in 2026.
>>
>>44743255

Surely you mean 2050!

I know the joke's getting old and all, but I'm going to miss this when Onyx Path settles into a regular schedule.
>>
>>44743316

10 years before a new edition is certainly reasonable.

Hopefully now that the uncertainly from the anticipated sale of WW in 2015 has been resolved, and Paradox has apparently given its blessing to the CofD, OPP will rapidly increase the pace of new releases.

I recall DaveB recently stating that he was currently experiencing the first time in a long while where he didn't have a writing project from WW. I was horrified and saddened. I expect that unfortunate situation has been rectified.
>>
>>44741406
I thought vampires gained a crude form of mage sight and trip balls for the duration.
>>
>>44743526
This. And they, as of 2e, need a merit for it. It provides better blood though.
>>
>>44741412
If I recall correctly the GM has been compared to both the Luna and the Principal. Furthermore it has been mentioned that it might be using the Exarchs power to alter realty. And ifs it on par with the Principal then it might be higher then the supernal realms.
>>
>>44743778
Mages are excluded from Unnatural Affinity. In 2e, they are bodily mortal and so their blood is entirely human. Which makes sense, given they were always portrayed as mortal except for their special soul vessels.

>In reference to the effects of a bite, the word “mortal” applies to humans, ghouls, warlocks, and other things that are mostly human.

pg 95

Now, that is talking about the effects of a bite, but it is conspicuous that they open up this can of worms but do not mention wizards under Unnatural Affinity.
>>
>>44743526
Oh, sorry, I read that as an attempt to diablerize the Mage, not just get vitae.
>>
>>44742091
>>44742044
>>44741804
>>44741731
>>44741364
>>44741285
>>44740648
http://pastebin.com/ESKmKknM
^Transgender info. Though >>44741364 sums it up.
Also, it's problematic to say "a man who 'thinks' he is female", as is outlined in the APA article and the one about brain scans.

As for "why mention gender at all?" because that's actually something that people encounter more often than biological sex. Mentioning gender but not sex gets across the point that a character that calls themselves male is still capable of getting pregnant. If they'd said a character with male sex... well, actually a demon could still do that, because their babies are stored in Z-space or some fuckery. Sometimes. Except for the times when they're stored in wombs.

>>44740648
The stuff about it in Heirs to Hell is cool in that "I like knowing how things work" sort of way. None of the options is really satisfactory, though.

>>44740818
Basically, yes. Have you ever read Animorphs? The Cover is stored in Z-Space and you change automatically.

>>44740860
Why would that piss off the machine? Offspring may actually be part of the God-Machine's ultimate plan, since at their highest levels they act as Sleeper Agents.
Plus, "several"? You need Primum equal to your Covers.

>>44741164
I think the God-Machine could probably deal with all that. You just sound like a Tempter who's primary Cover is having her biological clock tick. Calm down and buy cats instead, the Agency isn't going to be your daycare.
>>
>>44743938

I wanna be a warlock
>>
>>44740989
"Sub-soul from another universe"? I have no idea what that possibly means.
>>44741406 >>44743526
Actually, you gain a Derangement for a number of nights equal to the blood drank, but honestly getting Mage Sight is probably more interesting. Anyway, here's a quote from someone's Reddit post I found:
>Mages: The Requiem corebook (and Vampire the Masquerade before it) suggests a Mage's blood induces hallucinations or visions. Vampires who drink this blood gain a Derangement chosen by the Storyteller for a number of nights equal to the number of health levels inflicted by the Kiss. If you want to get technical about this derangement, you should take the Mage's Path and Nimbus into account. For example, an Obrimos's blood might induce feelings of Grandeur and Narcissism in the Vampire, while a Mastigos' blood might induce Paranoia or Schizophrenia.

>>44743778
Unnatural Affinity is for treating supernatural blood the same as Vampire blood. Anyone can drink from those things (if they physically can), it just doesn't count as being the same level as vampire blood for feeding restrictions.

>>44743938
>or stranger things still
>>
>>44744501
>"Sub-soul from another universe"? I have no idea what that possibly means.
Subsouls are independent artificial beings created by an Arch-Master from his own soul. Usually they're either used to populate your Chantry (magical extra-dimensional soul-palace) so you don't go mad from isolation, or turned into mystical super-beings and let loose in the Fallen World.

Every act of Archmastery is a spell which causes the caster to pretty much hop dimensions into one where the spell is feasible. So when you cast an mystically adaptive bio-plague which grants biological immortality and regeneration through Arch-Mastery, you jump to a world where that's feasible. However you're also jumping into one where a whole shitload of other smaller stuff is also different. So perhaps England is called America and vice versa, and there are no Cats or something.

In this case, the backstory is that a Mage created a Chantry full of people using Fate magic. He fucked up and died, and his Chantry fell (in one piece) into the mystic Abyss. Someone later caused an Abyssal intrusion in the location in the real world that he modelled it on, and the crazy fucking Fate magic which still existed on the location caused it to reality-overlay, including all of the people. So really the location has a crazy fucking mutant-chimera Fate, and every person born there is some kind of weird half sub-soul abomination.

And all of this justification exists solely to give me a reason to have stupendously improbably crap happen in one location, forever, that Fate magic can't properly comprehend (because it's two Fates tangled together, one from another universe).

But I digress.
>>
I'm new to WW games and couldn't find this in the book, when you take a fighting style merit do you get the lower levels of that merit as well, or do you have to buy each separately?
>>
>>44744771

I always assumed you bought it dot by dot, like a skill track or something.
>>
>>44744771
Everything is bought sequentially if it's part of the same merit.

>Style Merits
>Merits marked as Style Merits allow access to specialized maneuvers. Each maneuver is a prerequisite for the next in its sequence. So if a Style Merit has a three-dot maneuver and a four-dot maneuver, you must purchase the three-dot version before accessing the four-dot
>>
Presumably the people who kickstartd Beast wanted Tublr: The Triggering. How did they react to the changes?
>>
>>44745568
>Tumblr: the Triggering
Is it really so unfathomable that some people might actually WANT to play a completely amoral monster that's just an unrepentant dickbag to everyone around them? Beast really wasn't all that "tumblr" to begin with, it was just your typical revenge fantasy. It's no more "Tumblr" than the bad guy from Chronicle (which is a great movie).

That said: Many people backed the product explicitly saying that they hoped it would change. Many people started backing it when they realized that Matt would update it. Some people backed it really just because they wanted to support the company. Some people did back it wanting the original product and disliked the changes to the themes, because they saw them as being positive or saw good in them, or did think they were "Tumblr" and liked that. Some people backed it wanting the original product and don't care about the changes.

I think overall at least some very vocal people backed hoping it would change but feel the changes were very lukewarm.
>>
>>44745610
The issue isn't that they were amoral monsters it's the perspective that they were secretly the good guys and they were the ones being persecuted for it. This is a fucking 13 year old's revenge fantasy.

I have no problem with playing Unrepentant dick bags but don't twist into anything but what it is. You are playing the bad guys you are playing the unrepentant dick bags. That's the goal.
>>
>>44745710
Honestly? You're twisting it into something that it's not by pushing the narrative that Beasts were secretly the good guys.

They were not so secretly egotistical shits, but that's been true since VtM.
>>
>>44745732

Even if Beast doesn't push that narrative (which is absolutely does), it also doesn't push the narrative that you're a douchebag, and instead actively tries to point at characters that, if they appeared in any other piece of WoD fiction, would be the de-facto good guys, and screeches "BUT THEY'RE THE REAL DOUCHEBAGS." At the MOST generous, Beast is trying to misdirect and reroute blame, even if it isn't explicitly absolving Beasts of it.

Vampire bends over backwards to remind you at every turn that, at the end of the night, it's all bullshit. The Danse Macabre is masturbatory fantasy invented by bored monsters because they know they're one more boring night from degenerating into the filthy, braindead beast they all are underneath. You can mewl and moan and woe about your cursed as much as you want, but ultimately Vampire reminds you "the sun is right there, if you meant even a single word of it. Bitch."
>>
I'm not all the way through the book (or even close), but initial impressions make it look like they've just nicked bits of all the pother splats, glued them together and called it a splat. Though maybe that was to encourage multi-splat games.
>>
>>44745747
First off, a lot of Requiem 2e avoids the whole "woe is me, I'm dead" thing and instead talks about how being a monster is cool and all but also you have to be careful not to become a monster monster. It does however still go on about how vampire society at best doesn't care about humans. I mean, Rose Bailey has said the Carthians are Communism where mortals aren't the proletariat, they're the means of production.

Second... Beast does say that Beasts are assholes more than once. I never got the impression that the first draft was saying "these are your heroes", just that "these are the people you play".
>>
>>44745748
To be fair a lot of what they've done since Geist has felt like retreads.
>>
>>44745748
>Though maybe that was to encourage multi-splat games.
God I hope not.
>>
>>44718237
>threads are still not separated
>titles look ridiculous: /wodg/&/cofd/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General
>clearly different games, still in one general

I mean c'mon...
>>
>>44745816
But Demon did it well.
>>
>>44746147
They're as "clearly different games" as they were this time last year. When we split the threads, nothing really changes. You get a few people talking about Masquerade, Apocalypse, and Ascension (none of the other games) and then the thread peters out before hitting 300.

The only reason I mention World of Darkness still is because people aren't always up on the news that the nWoD was renamed, and because, yes, this is still the place for classic World of Darkness talk.

If you want it otherwise... well, make a thread.
>>
>>44740989
One of the leading theories for the Theban is a Strix-possessed mage.
Worst of both worlds, with vampire and mage.
>>
>>44741450
>Every major OPP book has one or more sidebars about gender identity and fluidity or similar issues

Two of them have had one.
Demon and Werewolf. Very applicable in both cases, since Demons can jump between identities, and Werewolves can swap sex at will with a gift.
>>
>>44742734
They start off as human. What humans really SHOULD be.
A lot of them experiment however, and end up as something... More.
>>
>>44746395
M20 actually had an entire page dedicated to the concept. Plus there's the one in Mortal Remains. And Undead Menses touches on it (which should come as no shock since the developer is trans). And in Beast there are non-standard pronouns. I wouldn't be surprised if Mage had something mentioned in the Life spells.

There have been a lot. All of them have really been pretty applicable. Really the more important question is: If that kind of thing bothers you, why do you continue to play a game made by people who have such drastically different values as you?

It's not like this is a new thing for White Wolf, and it's much better than before.
>>
>>44746466
I'd be surprised if Mage 2e doesn't have something like this. Mages are capable of changing both their sex (Life) and their Gender/Sexual Orientation (Mind). Would be a waste not to have at least one example Mage experimenting with that.
>>
>>44746466
>And Undead Menses touches on it (which should come as no shock since the developer is trans).

Except the Merits are all David Hill's lovechilds.

>Mage had something mentioned in the Life spells.

There is already one in the section on Yantras. Crushing a clay figure of your male self to assume your "real" female self.
>>
>>44746494
I know there's at least one mage that has no gender anymore. They go by the Shadowname Baphomet, and are a Lich. I think they're a bodiless construct of Mind?

>>44746504
Just because Hill wrote it doesn't mean "oh, my boss is trans, maybe I should take that into consideration".
>>
>>44746466
>If that kind of thing bothers you, why do you continue to play a game made by people who have such drastically different values as you?


Not that poster, but that argument is silly. Do you throw out the baby with the bathwater when there is one thing that you dislike about something, but otherwise enjoy it? That seems like a bit of an overreaction.
>>
>>44746466
>M20 actually had an entire page dedicated to the concept. Plus there's the one in Mortal Remains

Ah. M20 too. I forgot about the 20th' anniversary books. And Mortal Remains isn't a "major" book. Undead Menses is FAR from the same as "multiple sidebars about transgenderism."
>>
>>44742653
>pagan-fundamentalist United States

my sides.
>>
>>44746667
Yes, but at the same time it's a really strong part of the product. I mean, do you not remember how people kept flipping their shit about Blood and Smoke being "so gay" because it had people with the same gender in implied relationships?

It's a part of the setting most of the time. If that bothers someone so much that they're willing to bitch about it...
>>
>>44746725
>Yes, but at the same time it's a really strong part of the product.
Oh please, a Werewolf having to hunt, Demons acting like super-spies, or a Mage being corrupted by their power?
That's a strong part of the product.

Being able to switch between genders using a power or store your growing child off in a pocket dimension?
Not even close.
>>
>>44746751
Dude, White Wolf has been "SJW" before "SJW" was a thing. It's part of their fucking brand.
>>
>>44746763
Which part exactly?
The only even slightly SJW part I can remember is the preachy "if you find my super special pronouns weird, you're mentally disturbed" bit from Mortal Remains.
The seems to me to be is in the eye of the beholder.

Women channeling female power in their magic? Who says men can't channel masculinity?
Physically changing sex? That's an incredibly practical power, it's merely what people do with it that could be seen as contentious, and even then it's hardly unusual, if I could I'd probably try out being a woman for a little bit to see what it was like.
>>
>>44746813
>The seems to me
That should be "the rest seems to me"
>>
>>44746813
>Which part exactly?
Not the Anon you are answered to, but being socially progressive has been integral part of White Wolf since their first book.
They are still proud of the hatemail they got in the early 90's for the crime of using 'she' in their books.

Being SJW (using the positive definition of the term) is an important part of the company's self-image.
>>
>>44746813
White Wolf has branded itself as a very socially progressive or at least socially conscious company since the very beginning. Masquerade caught flak for using "she" pronouns in the books, and now the books are getting flak for calling out things like gender and sex being different, or the existence of transgender people.

Like... you can't really argue that. It's one of White Wolf's stated goals. They WANT to be an inclusive company.

The only real argument is whether or not you see it as a positive thing or a negative thing. I personally see it as a positive thing, and even when they stumble it's never as bad as 90s White Wolf (and "If you find a character's gender presentation jarring, but not the horrors of the World of Darkness, that might be a thing worth taking a look at" is barely even a falter in my book), and I wish that people who get up in arms about Trevor and Eric having a thing for each other would just... go away.
>>
>>44745004
So during character creation, does the three dot cost 3, or 6?
>>
>>44746855
>>44746874
>using the positive definition of the term
Well yeah sure, I agree.
I was just wondering where the more modern approach of indignant self-righteousness and verbal beration was.
Which is generally what I guess I've expected when I hear people us the word SJW.
Glad to hear that it's the stuff that actually works, for a change.
>>
>>44746929
3
However if you want to purchase it in-game, you've first got to buy 1, then 2, then 3, for a total of 12 experience.

2e's better though, linear costs, so there's no efficiency reason to min-max at character creation.
>>
>>44746944
Gotcha, thanks anon.
>>
>>44746813
>Which part exactly?
The part that aims the whole game towards the non-traditional, and has since the 90s.
>>
>>44746725
>I mean, do you not remember how people kept flipping their shit about Blood and Smoke being "so gay" because it had people with the same gender in implied relationships?
People didn't really do that.
>>
>>44746494

This is Awakening 2e's, in the chapter on Mage society, just after discussing Shadow Names:

>As a culture based around the rejection of mortal oppression, composed of individuals who almost all construct new identities for magical purposes, the Awakened have always been more enlightened than Sleeping society with regard to acceptance of different genders and sexualities, even if they remain as sadly prone to other prejudices as Sleepers. Many mages appear as different sexes when in the Astral Realms, or use their spells and Legacies to become who they are, without the Lie’s constraints. Many Mastigos and Thyrsus deliberately change gender, sex, and orientation temporarily as a means of self-examination and growth.
>Historically, Sleeping “magical” practices were a haven for transgender and non-binary people in many cultures; modern mages know that these roles are sometimes just as limiting as outright persecution, but some older Legacies were formed around their symbols and must contend with how their inheritance appears to the modern Orders.

147 words, all in.

Wizards have been changing sex as part of ongoing spiritual development since Tiresias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiresias . Even Elminster spent time as a woman in his backstory. And, with the Arcana, it's relatively trivial to do so.
>>
>>44746504

Undead menses was originally in the Gangrel Clanbook, which David did not write for.
>>
>>44743471

Nowt to worry about. It's just that I promised myself to a couple of projects that have been delayed starting thanks to the whole "our licensor sold the IP to someone else" last year, so where I would be starting those books soon, I'll be starting those books soon-ish.

Also, I'm trying to not write for so many books while Developing Deviant as I did while doing Mage, which nearly killed me.
>>
>>44743255

The changes needed for archmages are probably less words than the ones needed for the Mad. I'll likely get to them eventually on the blog.
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>>44747653
Archmages feels pretty 2e to begin with.
Imperial Mysteries is a good book. It just needed more of everything.
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>>44747941
>>44747941
>>44747941
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>>44744501
I think a Derangement would be a consequence of an un prepared person gaining Mage Sight.

Mage Souls have been touched by the supernal and are able to process the shear volume of information the sight gives them. A vampire would be bombarded with so much information that they're going to go a little nuts (like old school Malkavians).
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>>44745747
>Beast

Hey, speaking of, does anyone have the backer PDF? I completely missed the date to update my pledge because I'm an inherently bad person.

Issues with Matt aside, I like the mechanics of Beast enough that I can get through the pain of the narrative, and since it's so crossover-oriented I can mostly avoid the pain of other Beast players who want to honor that narrative.

Would like to graduate to the version of the rules that doesn't have YOU ARE MEAT, though. Normally I'd check some other chan, but somebody delivered and then the link went dead.
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