Making a not!africa setting. I need art for inspiration. Advice is welcome too.
Anything about it? My setting was going to be moreso influenced by west african lore.
Chickens are from South-East Asia.
African populations express more diversity of skin tone than the rest of the human race combined.
You don't want a game of just black people, I take it? Have human beings with skin tones that aren't found in real humans. Vivid whites, blues, pinks, yellows, reds and browns that aren't just variations of normal human skin tone, but look more like crayons. It avoids making it "Africa, but white!" while still getting around the latent racism of "I don't want to play black people" that, if we're being honest, most of us prolly have.
Playing somebody who has a different skin color doesn't bother me, especially in fantasy games where black =/= real-world historical black. I don't hqve to talk in any sterotypically stupid fashion, and not have to play into other stereotypes (such as half-naked warrior with a zebra hide shield).
Two mighty civlizations, one on the west, one on the east. The east is famous for its great architecture, its ancient lineage and monuments. An older race who remember the days of Bronze. A land of ancient gods with priestly castes and rituals to serve their whims
The west is younger, more martial, and more innovative with great wealth in gold, ivory and slaves. Strange new weapons and ways of making war. With only one god but many spirits.
In the north you have the desert faring, camel riding nomads, who have a bickering federation. Mercenaries, bandits, guides, all manner of people who form around brotherhoods of sword-cults.
In the far south the jungle dwelling savage in animal skin, armed with spear and shield, living off the land.
You could use Carthage or Egypt. Or the Barbary pirates. Or a mix of them, mixin Carthage with Pirates seems cool, imagine a very Republican Carthage with Ship lords bickering for rights of Trade or something with aa very ancient but decadent empire.
Also blacksmiths are part of a continent spanning, secretive brotherhood who hold knowledge beyond the mortal world, some believe they are witches but this is only a half-truth, for their magic is in the metal.
I don't know from where you get your info about congo then brah.
Don't get too caught up on hewing absolutely close to real life.
Don't underestimate how staggeringly large Africa is.
Bedoin sword are cooler.
You might want to work in an island chain some where which can be a mix of Zimbabwe and Somalia in terms of being a pirates nest. Maybe some Zanzibar by including dark magic/voodoo.
Shotels know nothing of Elegance.
Flyssa on the other hand...
It's so ugly than it's cute and all, but if you want to kill infidels doesn't work as well as this.
Your submissions are paltry
Not sure if these afro short spears are true assegai, but whatever.
Yours lacks utility.
Could this be the edgiest African weapon?
What do you do when your brother and his friends take over your kingdom? Hide in the woods, bribe a ghost to get a magic bag of holding and also become invisible at will and go full on Corvo on their asses. That's Oba Ewuare, m80s
He's practically the god of fried chicken and cool aid and running out on your family.
>>maybe a bit over done, but really I can think of only 1 or 2 books that mention him and I think they are both gaiman novels.
compare and contrast loki
Bronze golems. You can thank me later
The dancers keep the spirits away, but is losing your humanity worth it?
You want Nyambe- African Adventures. Seriously, a great book that does a not!Africa setting that's actually based on Africa and not simply stereotypes.
African ogres look like complete mockeries of the humans and animals God created. Multiple extra body parts, not enough of a certain body part, multiple body parts that shouldn't go together in one place, animal/human hybrid looking motherfuckers, tooo much wild body hair (seriously, in african folklore monsters tended to be hairy as fuck), and above all else: they eat people.
Pic somewhat related.
Just in case you didn't get the idea.
There's also many monsters who look almost like beautiful humans, but have ravenous mouths full of sharp teeth on the back of their heads or joints, hidden under thick hair. And there's also dragons, some of them spit gold everywhere in return for virgin sacrifice, others are giant multi headed fuckers who breathe out literally smoke and blood. But most of them tend to be giant water serpents with magical powers. There's also a nightmare demon from the yoruba people who could be sic'd on people while they slept, but if they woke up at all the demon would kill the person who sent it.
>So is the entire world Africa? A fictional continent gets verisimilitude if it has other geographic entities to play off.
You say that as if there aren't a shitload of settings that aren't basically confined to Europe or East Asia.
Africa has just as much variety in terms of geography and culture as any of those regions.
I'm seeing a decent chunk of Africa threads over the last month. Same anon doing these requests or just a coincidence?
It sounds like we perhaps should make a pdf of this stuff for references.
Not necessarily. It's sorta based on the perspective of a medieval/ancient african. To the north there's a general idea of people from the northern deserts and beyond sorta like berbers, carthaginians, arabs, and egyptians. And to the east they know that places like India and (south)east asia exist from traders. Europe is a bit more of a mystery. Just like how europeans barely knew anything about SS africa, they barely knew anything about europe except for maybe knowledge of greece and rome.
Because continents typically vary quite a bit geographically and Africa is no different. You can fit termperate and tropical plains, cold mountains, scrublands, deserts, temperate and tropical forests, wetlands, and everything else.
This. One of the greatest flaws in almost every fanatsy setting is underestimisation of the scale of continents. If you're gonna have an entire continent, or worse world, with only a few empires in it and nothing else you should probably reconsider and just focus on a single nation or even just a single island or duchy within a nation, because otherwise your world is just gonna feel empty.
> Just like how europeans barely knew anything about SS africa, they barely knew anything about europe except for maybe knowledge of greece and rome.
I hope you aren't counting Ethiopia and Mali in this gross generalization.
Malians were involved in the invasion of Spain and hip deep in the affairs of North Africa and the Mediterranean while Ethiopia kept in regular contact with the Byzantine Emperors up until the Fall of Constantinople. They made a couple of expeditions to France in the Late Middle Ages to negotiate an alliance against Egypt, which ultimately went no where.
(In short if medieval history was a bad teen comedy Mali was the Arabic world's bff, Ethiopia was Europe's bff)
True. I was thinking about breaking down the culture like this.
>Fuckhuge empire of the west like Ghana/Mali/Songhai
>Independent rainforest city states to the south of that like the Akan/Yoruba/Igbo/Fon/Bini
>Mostly cannibals and pygmies in the deep dark evil rainforest interior with maybe a good kingdom there sorta like Kongo
>To the northeast there's a mountain kingdom like a blend of Nubia/Ethiopia
>In the southeast, the place is ruled by warrior nomadic cattle herders (Not!Masai/Dinka/Shilluk/Luo/Nuer) who lay siege to the kingdom of the lake (Like Buganda/Rwanda/Burundi)
>In the south the warlike clans of the south push out the hunter gatherers into the desert and vie for power (Think Great Zimbabwe crossed with Zulus
And of course a shitload of spirits in the wilderness
Oh, of course not
And then there's the merchant city-states of the Swahili coast, who were engaging in trade with the Romans, Arabians, Persians, Indians, and even the Chinese as far back as 200 BC.
Seriously though, you should grab something from another culture and add it to one of your kingdoms to keep it fresh. I suggest something like pic related, young noble men who form a pistol armed cavalry contingent with a flair for reckless actions in the name of fame and glory.
No reason they can't have a touch of black powder.
Somalia had colonies in every major trading partner in the Indian ocean trade. They had them in the Islands, China and India itself.
In the Tuareg men are veiled, women are not. Their swords and veils are meant to protect them from evil spirits that live in the deserts during the day. After dusk or in a private tent they can take the veils off. The dye they use for their turbans/veils often stained their skin too, and they were some times called the Blue Men as a result.
>In the Tuareg men are veiled, women are not.
While best known among the Tuareg, this practice is very common in West Africa as well. None of the women go veiled, but adult men of the Fulani, Hausa, and Songhai.
It was even more popular hundreds of years ago in the Sahael region. In the 1400's, when the southern Saharans were the dominant rulers in Andalusian Spain, they made it illegal for anyone other than a male member of the warrior castes to wear a veil.
>that projection near the grip
what the hell
of course since it's a ceremonial weapon, a Magic-User or Cleric could probably use it just as well or even better than a regular weapon(if we assume said weapon has a connection to the gods or spirits)
More likely just a regular asshole trying to get a rise.
>>I demand photos of this.
They weren't saying that any people from Africa were actually bright white/blue/pink/yellow/red/etc.
Simply that some players might feel a little funny abut the race thing (even if they'll play Asian characters) and that introducing wonky ckin colors could help them get over it.
>discussing Africa on any other board on 4chan
Niggers! Guys... niggers! I said niggers! It's a funny word you guys!
>discussing Africa on /tg/
Hey guys, here's some cool historical information and some artwork or pictures of artifacts to go with it. Hopefully you can use it as inspiration for some great storytelling!
>/tg/'s opinion on everything seems to be 'DAMN REAL WORLD, YOU SCARY'
To be fair, it's not like there isn't some basis for that opinion. Most of the world tries its damnest to kill humans (while humans do their damnest to kill most of the world). Of course, space is much, much worse
but at least it's not the deep ocean.
while gangsta music is pumping from a magic horn
Blemmye nomads, not the misconception of Blemmye being picture related, apparently adopted Byzantine style armored barding for their horses circa 400-600.
The date is mistaken, it would be 1000-1100 when the Almoravids from closer to the Sahara were the dominant entity in Andalusian Spain. That was when wearing the litham (veil) was so popular that they had to forbid non berbers/non Almoravids from wearing it. It was like wearing red in the Hellenistic period = a sign you were a bad ass nigga.
Circa 1400 the only Andalusian territory was Granada, which was ruled by indigenous Muslim Spaniards. Also after the Almoravids I don't believe the litham veil was quite as ubiqitous - in fact I think the Almohads made fun of it.
Forgot the picture. Medieval conception of Blemmye was of a fantastical race with their faces on their torsos. A bunch of Geodudes and hitmonlees.
Also take the "tied/shackled at the ankle" comment with a grain of salt, it tends to be used to poetically describe a bunch of forlorn hope types. Arabs used it to describe Persian infantry at one of the early Caliphate-Sassanid battles, too.
>The date is mistaken, it would be 1000-1100 when the Almoravids from closer to the Sahara were the dominant entity in Andalusian Spain. That was when wearing the litham (veil) was so popular that they had to forbid non berbers/non Almoravids from wearing it. It was like wearing red in the Hellenistic period = a sign you were a bad ass nigga.
That's right. Thanks for the catch.
Looks like an english two pound coin or possibly some kind of euro, about two or three times the size of a dollar, or equal ish to the circle made by placing the tip of your index finger against the first joint of your thumb
Well, the Blemmyes (who are likely the ancestors of the modern-day Beja people of East Africa) were Roman allies, or clients. Idk, it was always a bit difficult to tell with the Romans.
But yeah, they controlled certain passes for the Romans, IIRC. Not too difficult to figure that they were let in on some of the tech, especially weapons.
And of course, the Christian Nubian kingdoms were buddy-buddy with the Byzantines. Although the Muslims eventually cut them off.
>tfw no based Coptic Nubian state in modern Africa
>create a Benin inspired culture with some elements from Shogun era Japan and gunpowder
>they're basically the Romans of their part of the world
I can't think of a good name for them tho. Any ideas?
Ethiopia/Nubia apparently had a reputation at possibly two points (but given the similarity, I think only one actual) in antiquity as the "Pupil Smiters" for the skill of their archery. The term is first applied when the Achaemenids tried to invade, and then again either with a Late Sassanian invasion or the Early Caliphate. Given the identical use of the term I'm suspicious about its second iteration.
In late Antiquity following its conversion to Christianity in the early 4th century Ethiopia/Axum behaved as something of a proxy ally for Christian Rome against Sassanian meddling in Arabia/Yemen, as well as indigenous hostility to Christianity. There was a Jewish Yemeni king, I believe Dhu Nuwas, who martyr'd 20,000 Christians and so invoked an Ethiopian invasion. Either as a result of that invasion or later meddling you had the "year of the elephant", when Ethiopia tried to seize Mecca and is said to be the birthyear of Muhammad.
Ethiopia in general treating the Hijaz and Yemen as its sphere of influence, and being ranked by Mani circa 3rd-4th century AD as one of the world powers with the Romans, the Chinese, and the Sassanids.
They were hostile at first, eventually became friendly with them after converting to Christianity.
All the African languages have interesting writing systems, too- the natively made ones, at least.
??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????
????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????
I got all those down already (but thanks), I just for the life of me can't decide what to name the entire culture. Just picking an already established Benin name just don't feel right.
Have some nice African-themed pics to make up for my rambling
sounds tubular, I think that strategy is what I'm going with
>??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????
>????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????
what does it say?
Also underappreciated: the Himba
first sentence of the Book of Enoch:
??la barakat za-Henok zakama b?raka ??ruy?na wa??d???na ??lla hallawu y?kunu
ba??lata m?nd?be la?asass?lo k??llu ??kuy?n warasi??n
"Word of blessing of Henok, wherewith he blessed the chosen and righteous who would be alive in the day of tribulation for the removal of all wrongdoers and backsliders."
Have anyone else read "Dinner in Audoghast", by Bruce Sterling?
“We Audoghastians like our new muezzin better,” said the poet, Khayali. “He’s one of our own, not like that other fellow, who was from Fez. Our muezzin is sleeping with a Christian’s wife. It’s very entertaining.”
“You have Christians here?” Watunan said.
“A clan of Ethiopian Copts,” said Manimenesh. “And a couple of Nestorians.”
“Oh,” said Watunan, relaxing. “For a moment I thought you meant real feringhee Christians, from Europe.”
“From where?” Manimenesh was puzzled.
“Very far away,” said Ibn Watunan, smiling. “Ugly little countries, with no profit.”
“There were empires in Europe once,” said Khayali knowledgeably. “The Empire of Rome was almost as big as the modern civilized world.”
Watunan nodded. “I have seen the New Rome, called Byzantium. They have armored horsemen, like your neighbors in Ghana. Savage fighters.”
Bagayoko nodded, salting an egg. “Christians eat children.”
Watunan smiled. “I can assure you that the Byzantines do no such thing.”
“Really?” said Bagayoko. “Well, our Christians do.”
“That’s just the doctor’s little joke,” said Manimenesh. “Sometimes strange rumors spread about us, because we raid our slaves from the Nyam-Nyam cannibal tribes on the coast. But we watch their diet closely, I assure you.”
Watunan smiled uncomfortably. “There is always something new out of Africa. One hears the oddest stories. Hairy men, for instance.”
“Ah,” said Manimenesh. “You mean gorillas, from the jungles to the south. I’m sorry to spoil the story for you, but they are nothing better than beasts.”
“I see,” said Watunan. “That’s a pity.”
“My grandfather owned a gorilla once,” Manimenesh said. “Even after ten years, it could barely speak Arabic.”
>The dancers keep the spirits away, but is losing your humanity worth it?
The egungun, living in fear of spirits, gave up on their own humanity just to keep the spirits from getting to them, but in turn stopped living their lives to do so.
This creates a lose-lose situation, as the egungun must either live a "normal" life of constant fear, or not live a life but have no fear.
In reality the spirits are interested in the egungun for their emotions, their humanity. When the egungun perform the rituals that make them lose their humanity, they see the spirits go away, and so they believe the rituals work.
What they fail to understand is that the rituals are not working, but instead the spirits lose interest as the egungun stop being emotional, stop being human.
I don't mind playing black people
also OP you are going for West African? I know a decent about about East Africa and have some good art for it
the East is better anyways since you get shit like the Swahili sultanates, nubia, ethiopia, somalia, egypt and grand zimbabwe
not so much Egypt since it was still very independent and unique even with Hellenism, but Nubia took to Hellenic ideals really quickly and basically set up a negro-greek style kingdom with a Polis system and everything
it was snuffed out by the Muslims however when they invaded and the only real remnant is current Ethiopia
Ethiopia was well noted as a major power in the Hellenic era and prior, it was really only the expansion of Islam cutting it off from the rest of Christendom which held it back so much
basically because Muslims ruin everything
but then West Africa had its own little Renaissance for a long time under Islam until the Spanish discovered Gold in the new world and effectively cut them out of the market
include some snake cult stuff
anything with snake cults is cool, like Conan
>basically because Muslims ruin everything
Muslim trade helped fuel the rise of West African empires.
Like all things in life, it was a mixed bag. Awesome for some, completely shitty for others.
not technically African but Thulsa Doom from Conan I always loved his character design
the black straight hair and blue eyes really made him look almost alien and ancient
My knowledge on weapons, aesthetics, and culture is pretty limited, but I do know about a couple of cool mythological creatures that haven't been mentioned in this thread.
In South Africa Witch Doctor's are said to have familiars called Impundulu, which are kind of like smaller, personalized Thunder Birds. Impundulu manifest as lightning, but may take the form of a bird or a handsome man in front of women. The type of bird varies a lot depending on who you ask, hammerkops, roosters, and other birds have all have all been tied to the Impundulu.
Impundulu are said to be vampiric, feeding off the blood of humans or other birds. Their flesh is said to have mind altering effects and can be extracted when they turn to lightning. They're impervious to most things and are apparently immortal. Their only known weakness is fire.
Impundulu can be passed down from mother to daughter and it's often said to be seen riding the backs of hyenas as Witch doctors can turn themselves into hyenas.
I think i should add this outline:
The egungun were so afraid of the spirits that they didn't even contact them, they just ran to their shamans in fear. If they had stopped for just a moment they would have realized that the spirits could not harm them in any way.
It is only because of their irrational fear that the egungun changed their entire society, and now there is no more going back.
That image and phrase inspired me so hard, the engungun story is tragical as it exposes our own fears and the irrationality that ensues from it. Would we act much different from the engungun?
OP i got the exact thing for you
a French film about a West African legend called Kirikou and the Sorceress. really cool art style and a great movie especially if you are interested
the entire thing is here on youtube
My characters tend to always fall into a Saharan/East African/Arabian archtype, but on that topic the idea of Northern European looking whites in a desert climate is a really interesting and romantic style/motif.
>africans are now black-american stereotypes
As a black guy, I love this. I firmly believe replacing some or all of the cast of any scifi or fantasy story with a street gang makes it ten times funnier.
>patient zero zombifies
>ghetto doctor immediately shoots it because he's actually watched zombie movies before
those exist now, there are tribes in Africa who look about as light as Englishmen
look up the riffians, they are an indigenous culture rather than an ancient immigrant population and are extremely fair complexion
This. Islam has rarely... played nice with others (but then again Christianity has often been less than a barrel of tolerance itself) but for a large portion of the time since Muhammed many of the Islamic cultures established in the Middle East and the northern half of Africa were fairly advanced and (relatively) civilized. The Arab world in the medieval era was often at the forefront of science, medicine and mathmatics and arguably came out a ways ahead of their European counterparts in those fields for quite some time.
Would amend when I say on that topic I mean of the alien and ancient. Not like Thulsa looked Northern Euro, just that something out of the ordinary but not as far off as blue or purple or green skinned is interesting.
Generally I'm a big fan of what I'd term more rugged diversity, not 'we are the world holding hands' faggotry, but more the Carthaginian armies of Spaniards and Celts and Italians and Punics and Libyans and Numidians, or the vignette of the Crusades with Armenians, Greeks, Hungarians, Danes, Normans, Franks and Italians juxtaposed with Ethiopians, Nubians, Arabs, Azerbaijanis, Iranians, Turks, Kurds, Syrians, Libyans.
Rather than just "These guys and the bad guys" and thats it.
Context, m8. This is where they live. Practically next door to Spain and France. White people below the Sahara are always kebab and must be removed
Christianity spread in peace for the most part, it only got hairy following the rennisance and as a result of Muslim threat on what remained of christendom
remember that Christianity basically spread across much of the old world as far as china, India, and Africa until Islam basically cut it down to its European rump by force
and unlike Islam, Christianity has actually done a lot of good in Africa, with the Church being one of the few organizations pushing for real development and change in the most hurt regions
Speaking of Lycanthropy in African women I love the story Nyarvirazi because it includes the dumbest way anyone has ever been turned into a were creature.
So the story comes from Rwanda and focuses on the aforementioned Nyarvirazi, who was the daughter of the local chieftain. She was an outdoorsy type who would often go for walks in the wilderness by herself. One day while out and about she drank from what she thought was a pool of water, but was in fact lion's urine, which I'm honestly not sure how you pull off. Does Lion piss not smell? Does it taste like water? Also, how much did this fucking Lion pee that it formed a fucking pool? Did the entire pride just get together and pee in a circle? How come they never cover that shit on Big Cat Diaries?
Anyway, while Nya is walking home she spots some of her father's cattle grazing in the fields. At this point she starts to get hungry, her body becomes covered in fur, and she turns into a lioness that kills and eats them.
Now from here the story differs a bit. In one version I read she comes to her senses and tells her family what happens. In another version it's her brother who sees the whole thing play out. Either way, everyone decides this is better left under wraps and that Nya shouldn't tell her husband.
So things pretty much go back to normal, though I assume with much more cattle killing, until Nya gives birth to her first child. The husband hears the mid-wives joke that at least the child doesn't have claws and fangs. Instead of brushing it off like a sane person might the husband goes and grabs his spear and threatens either Nya's family or Nya herself with it while demanding answers. Either way Nya doesn't take that shit, turns into a lioness again, and just straight up murders the poor bastard. At this point Nya either runs away into the wilderness to live as a Lioness with her child or she just returns home and I guess her old man just covers up the whole were-lion black widow thing.
You could tweak that for a campaign (as a BBEG or major NPC). Have her lost in the wild and desperate for water (dry season, no rivers?). As for the pool of magic Lion piss, all I can think of is a dead Werelion (freshly killed by a fellow Werelion after being ousted as the pride leader), out of desperation she drinks the blood of the Werelion.
Fucking love the way you wrote that.
I generally prefer the classical approach to race/ethnicity over the current "White, Black or Asian" American idea. it just doesn't work and it hurts more than it helps, plus what do i have in common or related to some random Russian fuck just because we both have light skin
i want a shit ton of different races/ethnicity like in the old Roman Ethnographies so i can hate everyone and be more accurate about it too
also OP look into African Fetishes, really interesting history behind them and they could be an interesting inspiration for a setting.
>Christianity spread in peace for the most part,
Islam spread in peace for the most part too. Much like the Roman empire before them, the Caliphate was pretty much the wealthiest power with the highest levels of education and standards of living, and engaged in lots of trade. Most people became Muslim largel because it semed like the Muslims were on to something.
Most of their conflict was with Christians- who weren't too happy to see Mulsims moving into regions where they had previously enjoyed influence.
And then there's the fact that Christianity spread throughout Europe via terrirtories already subjugated (quite violently in many cases) by the Roman Empire.
Hell, when Jesus was actually alive, the Roman empire was engaged in a deadly conflict with the Zealots of Roman occupied Judea.
Plus, there's plenty of cases where churches of all kinds have caused trouble. More than 16 crusades were launched within two centuries, each of them spanning from years to decades.
I might be getting this wrong, but I think (a) african culture's idea of death is that the afterlife is like opposite land.
Want a baby? Carve a statue of a dead spirit jerking it (since masturbation is the opposite of sex I guess).
Campaign wise, could use some "opposite logic" to beat undead. Maybe they don't attack anyone not wearing armour (since in their mind they think the armour-less person is invulnerable)
look at his clothes
hes not British but Moroccan
overseas yes because they were a primarially land focused military, however they destroyed the cultures across the near east and committed actual genocide in India and Persia
the reason Buddhism is dead in India is because the Muslims basically destroyed all their temples and sites while Hinduism was more fluid and didn't really need temples so it survived
In terms of bodycount, there's zero comparison. Every year, Islam-inspired violence kills more people than all the witch hunts, crusades, and inquisitions combined.
>inb4 but terrorists aren't motivated by TRUE ISLAM
And if you wanna invoke True Scotsman, it can apply just as well to Christians.
>inb4 "but they were tolerant of others living in their territories!"
They wanted the dhimmi tax. Because of it, sometimes they would discourage converts.
Just like christianity did in East and North Europe and, more blatantly, in America. All in all, monotheisical/abrahamic religions are always pretty destructive towards "paganism".
Are we trying to still get notAfrica ideas going or has this devolved into the Crusades/Jihads thread.
Orthodoxy rules; Catholicos drools.
>Every year, Islam-inspired violence kills more people than all the witch hunts, crusades, and inquisitions combined.
> that's exactly the kind of ridiculous and cool that European tales are always lacking,
To be fair, European legends can get pretty out there too. It's just that
A. We're a lot more familiar with their mythology and story telling methods
B. Most of the stories get watered down over the years to be more kid friendly. Can't have your Disney princess drinking lion's pee.
I find that mythology is actually pretty similar wherever you go. Most of humanity faced the same fears an desires so it's not surprising that we share a lot of very similar myths and legends.
>>In terms of bodycount, there's zero comparison. Every year, Islam-inspired violence kills more people than all the witch hunts, crusades, and inquisitions combined.
Not even close. And you're forgetting how Christian Europe pretty much converted/destroyed the entire native population of the western hemisphere/Australia/Pacific Islands. And they would have gotten China and Japan too.
Compared to the centuries of government sponsored colonialism and genocide, the authoritrian practices of some ultra conservative governments and attacks of non-government insurgents are small beans.
Al Queda, big and scary as it is, has never wiped out an entire culture.
natives were not culled for the curch, they died from outside causes/gold lust
natives were actively asked to convert but not really forced to the same degree as in Islam would essentially force entire cities to convert at times
in Northern/Eastern europe as well they did ni such thing
there is plenty of evidence that christianity spread into Scandinavia peacefully and that pagans and Christians lives alongside each other for centuries, many runestones even have christian markings and there were christian vikings who went out and raided all the same
in the East they again adopted it willingly for the most part, which is why much of the east is orthodox since many Slavic lords chose to side with Byzantium as they created the Slavic language for them
Islam again utterly destroyed the cultures of the entire near east in favor of an Arab one which latter received massive Persian influence as they were able to hold on to much of their own culture
India however was decimated by the Muslims who basically used it as their little playground until the British took over and started building up the nation again and helping restore the Hindu faith
Seconded. 7 short people helping protecting a woman whose skin is "white as snow" who was killed by a poisoned apple (even though poison fruit tastes like shit and is usually brightly coloured) might seem weird to them.
I remember a documentry where an African tribesman was shown London. Fucker wanted to catch squirrels in the park at put him on his hat. Anyway, a lot of stuff he found awe inspiring. He thought a pretty glitzy church/cathedral was built by god. Not his followers, actual God building a fucking building. Wish I watched more of it, but just caught a clip of it when channel flicking.
Not to forget that, while having a strong islamic basis, all that organizations feed themselves on anti-colonialist/western feelings. So one could argue that the west had part of fault, though it would obviously be too much to only blame the colonization.
>this was for Christianity
>diseases are Jesus' fault
the entire reason Latin America has such a high native population/mixed is because so many converted willingly as christianity really spoke to them being so in tune with their own cultural ideas
the Spanish treated the natives far better and it was the more secular America which massacred them outright out of land lust rather than religion
It was fun while it lasted.
>as an atheist i know everything about everything
my major area of study is the medieval era in Europe the Near East, and the New World early in colonization, as well as some studies in theological history/philosophy
I can tell you that you don't know shit and that most people just spout the same tired crap about the evils of Christianity
this is all bias due to protestant enlightenment era deists writing history texts as if everything was just some long progression to martin luthor and then enlightenment
no one is saying Christianity never did anything wrong ever, but ignoring what it did do and treating islam as some sacred cow on the other hand is just hypocritical
slavery was illegal in Spanish territories and they barely imported any African slaves
they had no native slaves as well after Columbus since a ban was put in place by the Jesuits to protect them as potential converts and children of God in the Council of the Indies
you are the one who is just making shit up
i'd also like to add that the Catholic Church was the major safeguard of native peoples throughout all South America, with the Jesuits going as far as armed conflict to stop portugese slavers and other criminals from taking people away
check out the film The Mission, its about a real story which basically covers this
>I can tell you that you don't know shit and that most people just spout the same tired crap about the evils of Christianity
Nobody's spouting anything about the evils of Christianity.
Simply that people- Muslim/Christian/Roman/Greek/Etheopian/whatever are dicks to some people and nice to others. It has zilch to do with the actual religion, and more to do with the desires and intent to go out and be evil and entirely to do with (usually secular) goals of the people at hand.
We're not saying Islam is a sacred cow, do-no-wrong thing. We're just saying, categorizing Islam as objectively worse than Christianity is prejudiced and flat out incorrect, mate. There's plenty of Muslims that don't chop people's heads off with axes, just like there's plenty of Christians that don't persecute non-Christians. It's like you're antithetical to the idea of someone with a certain religion acting like a decent human being.
I remember there was a thread like this a few months ago where an anon talked about the legend of a disappearing city or kingdom. If I remember correctly the city/kingdom was presided over by some kind of Goddess and she only let the city exist in our world in times of great good.
The same anon also shared a story about a woman who ate a magical fetish and gained the ability to breathe fire. Does anybody remember the name of the city or the woman who breathed fire caused I'd like to look them up?
it is objectively worse down to its very doctrine
it emphasizes communitarian values and lack of individual choice as well as submission over reverance
the idea of this Muslim golden age (other than economic) where they were magically different in ideology from today is ridiculous
the fundamentalist traits that infect the area today have always been there and for centuries people secular and non alike have chaffed under it.
this goes down to why islam remained so backwards while Europe progressed
the East had the same rennisanse era pressures going through it as the West did, to the point that it flourished for a time in the courts of the mughal, sassanid and ottoman empires. Akbar the great is the best example i can think of now and it is where islamic-indian culture/art reached its pinnacle
but then it was all snuffed out in favor of traditionalism and stagnation by latter rulers like Selim the Grim and Suleiman who effectively halted any development
even in the middle ages christian centers provided the bulk of learning and development which spurred the return of classical high culture latter
>“My grandfather owned a gorilla once,” Manimenesh said. “Even after ten years, it could barely speak Arabic.”
>it emphasizes communitarian values and lack of individual choice as well as submission over reverance
I think you should stop pretending to know what that word means.
then there was that crazy Muslim guy who said he was Genghis Khans descendent and literally built a throne out of skulls that Khrone would be proud of
then his ghost pulled some revenge of the mummy shit and caused Operation Barbarossa killing millions of ruskies
What do you do when America calls your phone? You let Freedom ring.
white people originally only cared about profit and conversion which is why they only had costal outpostf for the most part in Africa. going inland was unprofitable as was conquest.
it was European liberals pushing for some sort of utopian ideal of uplifting the poor which spurred the conquest of Africa, alongside eliminating slavery. then the capitalists basically took what they could from the mess and ran with it until it inevitably blew up due to being unprofitable as shit
pretty much yea
its like the beta testing zone for all the crazy stuff
I have studied anthropology and we've talked a lot about Africa considering its massive cultural diversity which remains active today, and there is some pretty crazy shit down there
just posting this here for scientific roleplaying study
My (white) wife stares for parts of me and marvels at how different areas ae darker than others.
When she met my auntie, who has Vitiligo all over her body. I had to keep to keep reminding her not to stare. She was so fascinated.
Yeah, it's pretty cool. I get mad when artists don't draw them. I'm black, I have them, and so does every other black person.
And then they try to tell me I'm being racist because that's a racist caricature.
>Yeah, it's pretty cool. I get mad when artists don't draw them. I'm black, I have them, and so does every other black person.
>And then they try to tell me I'm being racist because that's a racist caricature.
I don't draw them because it's an annoying detail that doesn't seem to translate nearly as well into stylized 2D as it does into photorealistic art.
Well, my eyes do look somewhat golden when the light shines on them a certain way, in the lighting conditions that allow you to see dust in the sunbeams, but that's about it in terms of lion-like ness for me. It was when I was a kid.
When it's not proportional to the rest of their body.
Charlemagne tha God said it best: your lower boy can't look like the letter P.
Nicki Minaj is too much. Miley Cyrus is too little. The Kardashian family's asses are just right. Iggy Azalea is in that Goldilocks Territory, but is much nearer to too much than too little.
>Charlemagne tha God said it best: your lower boy can't look like the letter P.
Sounds like a bitch ass nigga to me.
OP, you are white cishet scum, please check your privilege and stop this disgusting cultural appropriation. African cultures are not yours to make into a fantasy playground, you chauvinist shitlord.
>Islam spread in peace for the most part too. Much like the Roman empire before them, the Caliphate was pretty much the wealthiest power with the highest levels of education and standards of living, and engaged in lots of trade. Most people became Muslim largel because it semed like the Muslims were on to something.
Not so much in Africa. Most Sub-Saharan Africans became Muslim either because they were originally pagan and didn't want to be slaves (Islam forbids making slaves out of fellow Muslims) it didn't really work out for most Malians, Islamic teachers even tried to find scriptural excuses to continue enslaving black muslims but eventually just gave up and lived with the hypocrisy.
Others on the east coast were conquered Christian states that were deprived of their places of worship and were practically forced at knife point to convert to Islam or be killed or forced into slavery.
The Egyptian Muslims were absolutely awful to the conquered Nubians, destroying some of the oldest ever Christian churches and enslaving a great many of them while also replacing the old Greek styled Kings with new Arabic speaking over lords. It was a very calculated effort to destroy the Nubian culture and deprive Ethiopia of their chief ally in the region. They barred Nubian kings from approaching the patriarch of Alexandriua to appoint new bishops for their faithful and had to turn to Ethiopia for replacements but were refused because Ethiopia did not want to offend Egypt. This was some time late in the 13th century.
also this is often ignored, but the islamic slave trade not only went on longer than the trans-atlantic, but was on a far larger scale and much more brutal
the difference was that they castrated their slaves to prevent them ever breeding, meaning both that they had to constantly get more and that they could abuse them far easier being not fully 'men'
There is a strong argument to be made that the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was mostly an imitation picked up from Arabic and Berber traders. There is documented evidence that the concept of blacks as a 'slave population' was originally found and propagated by North African groups who regularly used the west African coast as their own preserve for slaves, and that the Portuguese and Spanish were introduced to the idea through them when they started to need slaves of their own.
This is not to excuse the colonial powers, but the crimes of Europe inflicted upon Sub-Saharan Africans were not theirs alone. Many North African and Islamic states were built on the back of black slave labour, particularly after it became almost impossible to raid Europe for slaves during the Modern period.
im not saying it excuses the abuses in the new world or lessens what they did, just that it is awful that this entire other side of things is completely ignored and downplayed, especially by liberals
>Orthodox Rome was still very much a Hellenic culture and you see the same ideals, and art styles continuing right until the very end of the Empire
I dunno, not really. Byzantinium had very much its own thing going. A weird mish-mash of Latin and Greek with a strong current of eastern Christianity adding even more conflicting elements. Calling it a Hellenic culture isn't exactly correct. I mean in what way do you think they were Hellenic?
They spoke Greek, that's about the only way I can think they were in any way Hellenic. Their architecture had a lot of different periods, their art wasn't much like ancient art being more religious in tone, their governmental system wasn't particularly Hellenic and their style of dress went through many fashions over the years.
>just that it is awful that this entire other side of things is completely ignored and downplayed, especially by liberals
1. I'm a liberal, so no, liberals as a whole don't ignore this element of history.
2. I think its more a conservative strain of afro-centrism that has to do with the white washing of North Africa's involvement and propagation of the 'African slave' myth than western liberals. African conservatives that preach pan-Africanism has a lot more to do with it. And to be fair in the grand context of things Europe and the West have done a lot of evil much more recently to Africa's than the Middle Eastern world.
>Not so much in Africa. Most Sub-Saharan Africans became Muslim either because they were originally pagan and didn't want to be slaves (Islam forbids making slaves out of fellow Muslims) it didn't really work out for most Malians, Islamic teachers even tried to find scriptural excuses to continue enslaving black muslims but eventually just gave up and lived with the hypocrisy.
There are actual records from the era that show this isn't the case. Although they had battle with Muslim poweres, there was also peaceful interactionin the form of Muslim advisers and learned men, who were highly valued by the nobility, who eventually when Muslim themselves and encouraged their followers to do so.
Even then, syncreticsm was practiced (and tolerated) far more widely in Africa than elsewhere in the Muslim world.
As if this is all that different from when the Greeks moved in and dismantled the existing Egyptian society, replacing it with the Ptolemaic Dynasty.
The Arabic slave trade was no moe the Muslim slave trade than the Roman/Atlantic slave trade was the Christian slavetrade or the Chinese slavetrade the Taoist/Confuscionist slave trade.
>the idea of this Muslim golden age (other than economic) where they were magically different in ideology from today is ridiculous
You're not bog on mathematics or astronomy, are you?
>im not saying it excuses the abuses in the new world or lessens what they did, just that it is awful that this entire other side of things is completely ignored and downplayed, especially by liberals
It's not ignored or downplayed, however. Liberals aren't for/against Christianity any more than they're for/against Islam.
But some people are convinced that if they can just show that Christianity has gotten a bumb rap over the years and that it's really Islam that's been the horrible big bad all these centuries...
Which is pretty much how this thread- which was largely about African diversity and accomplishments of actual Africans from a historcial perspective- started off on a "which religion is worst?" tangent.
Not because of anyone bad mouthing Christianity.
>There are actual records from the era that show this isn't the case. Although they had battle with Muslim poweres, there was also peaceful interactionin the form of Muslim advisers and learned men, who were highly valued by the nobility, who eventually when Muslim themselves and encouraged their followers to do so.
There are records detailing a back and forth. That's like saying the Mughals were nice to Hindus because of Akbar the Great and his interfaith council, yes there were periods of tolerance, but they were far from the norm and only occupy a small window of time.
The violent subjugation and the desperation of the Nubian Christians is fact. We have many records of their panicked down fall until we find a damning silence after the 13th century where they were subsumed entirely by their Muslim neighbours.
There's an interesting but brief section on the African situation in the Islamic world in the book A Short History of Slavery by James Walvin that is very interesting, including many first hand accounts on the ideas and theories Arabs had of black Africans and the writings of black Africans themselves in regards to slavery on the west coast of Africa.
>>There are records detailing a back and forth.
Which was exactly my point. It wasn't a one sided issue.
>>The violent subjugation and the desperation of the Nubian Christians is fact.
Indeed it is. Just like the Greek subjugation of the Egyptians. The Muslims didn't just move in peacefully and start killing Nubians because they were Christians. It was a full on military operation with the intent of bringing Nubian territories under the rule of the Caliphate.
>>There's an interesting but brief section on the African situation in the Islamic world in the book A Short History of Slavery by James Walvin that is very interesting, including many first hand accounts on the ideas and theories Arabs had of black Africans and the writings of black Africans themselves in regards to slavery on the west coast of Africa.
Again, you're conflating Arab and Muslim. I'd be interested in hearing first hand accounts of what black African Muslims thought of black Africans.
I'd imagine it'd be like comparing first hand accounts of western European Christian writings to those of black African Christians.
>The Muslims didn't just move in peacefully and start killing Nubians because they were Christians
This is not entirely correct. The fact that they were Christian had a lot to do with it. They had just fought a massive war with the Crusaders and were rooting out Christian kingdoms where ever they could. Ethiopia never bit the bullet due to an old tradition of not attacking Ethiopia in Islamic literature due to the fact they sheltered the Prophet in his exile.
They had tried to conquer Nubia before, but Nubia had been in a better position to defend itself at the time. This time they weren't so lucky.
You are massively discounting the role religion played in these military expeditions, and that smacks of modern revisionism.
>Again, you're conflating Arab and Muslim. I'd be interested in hearing first hand accounts of what black African Muslims thought of black Africans.
I'm not. I'll try digging up one of the poems written by a black muslim slave serving in a Berber court, but I don't think the thread will survive long enough. Arabs and Berbers were pretty shitty on the whole to their black subjects, Muslim or otherwise.
>>They had tried to conquer Nubia before, but Nubia had been in a better position to defend itself at the time. This time they weren't so lucky.
Indeed, and these initial attempts to take Nubian territories, failed, and had been on again off again state of conflict with the Nubians- with both sides taking, losing, and retaking land for hundreds of years BEFORE the Crusades.
And Arabic expansion into Nubia continued even AFTER the Crusades were ended with Europe.
While the Crusades did influence Arab/Nubian relations during the Crusades, their adversarial relationship both predated and outlasted that conflict and were not founded entirely on religious grounds.
But you are. You're trying to use passages featuring negative ARAB (and now Berber)had negative opinions of black Africans in an attempt to suggest that MUSLIMS/ISLAM had a negative opinion of black Africans.
You're conflating ethnic/racial discrimination with religious discrimination.
>You're conflating ethnic discrimination with religious discrimination. Arabs/Berbers didn't just talk shit about black Africans either. Plenty of other ethnic groups- even those who were also Muslim- were subject to being treated differently.
To better illustrate, while Nubia was a "Christian ally" it certainly didn't stop many people in Europe- Christian or not- from having low opinions of black Africans living in Nubia and elsewhere.
>ut you are. You're trying to assert that because many Arabs (and now Berbers) had negative opinions of black Africans that MUSLIMS/ISLAM in general had a negative opinion of black Africans.
They actually did create an exception on slavery laws in regards to black Muslims. If that isn't a religious institution betraying a member of its institution based on race I don't know what is.
The line between ethnic and religious discrimination during this period is so blurred its pointless to argue the difference.
>They actually did create an exception on slavery laws in regards to black Muslims. If that isn't a religious institution betraying a member of its institution based on race I don't know what is.
Yes, it is based on race/ethnicty. It;'s based almost EXCLUSIVELY on race/ethnicity.
They didn't change the laws in regards to Arab Muslims. This is a case of Arab Muslims targeting black African Muslims for slavery because they're black Africans.
Black African Muslims didn't make laws targeting themselves, Arabs did.
But the teachings of the religion itself didn't target black Africans sospecifically. A specific ethnic group (the Arabs) went off on their own and changed their societal rules so as to more easily target another ethnic group.
>>The line between ethnic and religious discrimination during this period is so blurred its pointless to argue the difference.
But it isn't. You had large populations of black Africans following several different faiths. Christians, Muslims, and others.
All were taken as slaves by Christians, Muslims, and others.