>>7835165 We discussed this years ago. That OP actually posted sources, unlike your lazy ass.
Anyways, the website from the people pushing these said that the goal was to make more jobs for liberal arts people inside of big tech and science companies.
Their excuse was that 'pure creativity' was needed to keep a business running but that is bullshit..That assumes that people that do engineering, or high level math, or whatever, cannot be creative and have ideas on their own and need a babysitter liberal arts major to help them out. That is not the case.
Most start ups are made by STEM graduates and most CEOs are STEM graduates. We don't need 'idea guys'.
And this leads to the main point. All that I have said is known. We know this. They know this. So then why use that as their main catching point? Obvious. Liberal arts degrees are becoming literally worthless, with people reporting not getting jobs for 2 years after graduation at all. They just want to push this agenda to trick companies into hiring their liberal arts graduates because if not, they will all be stuck making minimum wage at Mc Donalds.
And that is all there is no it. It will never catch up because it doesn't bring anything interesting to the table. It just wants liberal arts majors to feed off the prestige that 'STEM' has.
holy fuck we invented stem just so we could have a special club to keep out the arts majors what the fuck even is the point of doing this? >look i'm in the team with the engineers i am smart i deserve attention
The arts are important if only to create balance and create breathing space in education programs. Kids from grade school age all the way up through uni will become fatigued and burnt out VERY quickly if STEM takes the lion's share of their course load.
There's also the bit where literal art (music, painting, etc) have been proven to exercise portions of the brain that are barely touched while performing STEM work, and if anybody thinks it's a good idea to let parts of their brain atrophy I'd argue that they're an idiot. They've also been shown to positively impact stress levels in a big way, and anybody with experience with science and mathematics coursework knows about the absurd levels of stress that it can bring.
So no, it may not get you a job but it'll probably make you a better human, maybe reduce your stress, and likely even improve the efficacy of your STEM studies. Doesn't sound like such a terrible thing to me.
>>7835220 I agree with that, but I think things like the STEAM movement (despite claims otherwise) are a direct result of a perceived over-focus on STEM subjects in schools, which in combination with standardized testing has resulted in art programs getting trashed left and right.
>>7835224 Joke's on you, I don't have a degree and make a somewhat cushy living as a software developer.
K I posted about this a couple weeks ago, nobody gave a shit. Let me break this down. In my school's electrical engineering and computer engineering advising office, there was this magazine called STEAM, with the same words, etc, with fucking Will.i.am on the cover of it. You know what the inside of the magazine. Every other page was an advertisement for working at some company, which is fine I guess, engineering companies need to get their word out and recruit. BUT HOLY FUCK. LITERALLY EVERY PICTURE MADE SURE TO INCLUDE ANYWHERE BETWEEN 1-3 BLACKS DOING SCIENCE. Literally fucking >WE WUZ SCIENTISTS AND SHIT I fucking hated because of just how dishonest it was. In my lower div intro to Electronic and Digital systems, there were literally 0 blacks, and maybe 1/3 of the class was women. But remember, this is literally the first class for the CE major, getting your feet wet, etc. And to get to this class, you had to have completed calc already and classical physics/linear algebra. What was the racial makeup of my class? About 60% asian of some sort (including indians) and 40% white. Where were all these black scientists these companies kept advertising in their ads, I have 0 fucking clue, because they sure as hell aren't coming from my uni. Next thing I'd like to complain about was the content. I wanted to see maybe interesting articles about maybe upcoming technologies or projects planned within the industries they advertised. Maybe some success stories, or interviews of people working in some company. I didn't expect this to get too technical, and I figured it was meant more for the layman interested in human innovation to get hyped about the progress we make everyday rather than the math associated with said progress. What did I get? EVERY OTHER FUCKING ARTICLE WAS ABOUT DIVERSITY. How there's not enough. How women aren't working in stem because and I fucking quote "women just don't feel safe". It made my fucking blood boil. FUCK LIBERALS.
>>7835254 for those interested, I can go back to my school's advising office and probably snap some pictures of said magazine, so long as the copies are still there. They probably are sadly. I'm so sad that this garbage is infecting my industry.
>>7835257 Will deliver tomorrow then. I'll either post in this thread if its still up, or just make it its own. I'll make sure to include the rageboner inducing materials, because there was plenty of it
>>7835259 >>STEM majors are simply too intelligent to fall for the art scam. You don't need a degree to be an artists. No you don't, but without any external influences education will become all STEM all the time and start churning out badly lopsided individuals. This is not good.
The point isn't to make art degrees relevant, it's to make sure that courses that aren't STEM don't all wither away and disappear (as they have been).
>>7835271 the point is that you don't need to specialize in an arts degree to critically analyze pieces of art or to create your own works of art. Contrary to pencil-pushing or outside belief, a large part of STEM is based on creative, outside-of-the-box thinking already. If anything, really, I'd say more arts-focused degrees should have a heavier emphasis on logic, mathematics, or technology in their program than STEM should be making efforts to include the arts.
>>7835275 >you don't need to specialize in an arts degree to critically analyze pieces of art or to create your own works of art You don't need a degree to do science and math either. In fact, you don't need to go to college at all for anything, but good luck getting a job by insisting you know how to do something you learned on your own.
>>7835282 This is why I love programming. It costs me nothing but time to code portfolio projects and they serve as undeniable proof that I can do what I claim I can do. I might make a little less than my degree'd counterpart (so far, this has not proven true in for me in silicon valley), but given the costs of completing degree I think that's fine.
I wish more lines of work were so practical and self-accessible.
>>7835165 Aesthetics would make more sense in context since feng shui and the like can actual come up with scientific measures to guide design aesthetics for maximum functional balance, but arts is too abstract, vague, and subjective which is exactly what STEM is meant to be set apart from and it doesn't even really make sense to add the A for aesthetics.
artists can keep singing, making things look prettier, etc. for example, web designers are actually artists that work with tech people... and that's not a problem. in fact, art is not a problem, why do people categorize this bs at all?
>>7835351 >society could function without aesthetics
The human mind responds to aesthetic phenomena no matter what.
Furthermore, considering that professions with no strict utility - athletes, musicians, comedians, actors - have among them some of the highest paid individuals, it would seem that there is no way a human society can exist without diversionary activities.
>>7835282 To do math, I agree in principle, to do any sort of science, you need expensive equipment and real practical instrumentation. Trying to do it without the training you get at college is like trying to learn how to swim from youtube.
Developing technique is something you can google, read and practice at home. Having a taste for art is something you form by watching it.
>>7835165 >What does /sci/ think of the STEAM movement? Sounds like a movement from people who are confusing the direction of causality.
"People made a list of rigorous and economically valuable fields and my postmodern lesbian dance program isn't on it. If I just add postmodern lesbian dance to the list it will be rigorous and economically valuable too!"
>>7835165 Depends what they think art is. Fine Arts, painting and music, I can understand. Lots of people I know in STEM do this anyways in their spare time. It's not only stimulating but a great way to express yourself. It completes your studies on the more mathematical side. I often say, mathematics is an art, too, it's very creative and stimulating.
I can agree to include the A, if meant that way. However, I can't agree to include it, if they're talking about everything else. Because social sciences, law, economy, psychology, history, art history ... are, on the contrary to Art, just worthless subjects who add nothing to this world.
Thanks for posting this OP. You know, this thread reminds me of a story I'd like to get off my chest about the arrogance of STEM people.
I was happily walking across campus towards our massive new shiny, glass walled multi-million dollar government funded cheme laboratory when I realized I need to take piss. And what would other building than the Visual Art department happened to be the nearest? So I was walking through the old building noticing that even though they haven't seen funding for renovation in decades, they seem to have done a good job preserving and what they do have, it felt very cosy. The bathroom was kind of nice and clean and the halls were quiet.
On my way out I happened to see an active lecture hall, the lecturer was quietly helping one student at the front while the rest worked so it seemed somewhat akin to a tutorial session. Everyone there seemed pretty relaxed and as if they actually had enough time to properly wash and get well dressed this morning, they put a clear effort into their appearance. I had a minute so I stopped to glance at some work the students were producing.
This experience made me realize 3 things: >This lecture hall is filled with complete and utter fucking plebs. >I could draw geometric shapes by hand better and more accurately after my 1st semester tech comm. class than half the hacks and idiots in this class who can barely draw a straight line. >Our arrogance is completely justified, fuck these tards, arts should not be a real university degree in the 21st century, keep your hobbies outside academia.
>>7835686 7/10 of the richest men/women on the planent got their wealth through STEM even those not in a technical industry claimed to use their STEM education a lot in successfully running thier business (like linear programming optimisation techniques etc).
Not him but basic equipment for science can be self made or bought for cheap IF you know what you are doing. Only the medical sciences are nigh impossible to practice without some institution to help fund and certify you due to regulations.
>>7835706 >but it's arguable those people It's not.
They themselves say it's not.
Their industry requires STEM knowledge.
The ones who started from scratch made small tech companies.
Why is this so difficult for you to accept? The "you only need to be charasmatic and only get a business degree to be le rich CEO xD" is a meme, you need to be fucking smart and well educated which necessitates STEM education because writing exams about diversity in the workplace is not a real education. Those people all end up in middle management including the larger chunk of trust fund babbies who fail to utilize daddy's connections.
I guess they could use that. It doesn't hurt anyone. People that are talking about STEM are still just going to use STEM. They're just classifications. It's not like this is making any sort of comparison between the fields inside of it.
>>7835254 Dude it's best to just ignore that shit.
Ironically when the best Asian, White AND BLACK (there are a few) students alike see those kind of adds they just think "this is a loser company with no real achievements or interesting work and has to resort to "muh humnie diversity xD" ads".
Those companies probably have a toxic anti-merit working environment too.
>You know how expensive is to get glass for chemistry? Very.
I'm not too familiar with the expense rates of quality glass for chemistry equipment so you have me there. But that doesn't stop you from taking classes to make it your own or making friends with glass makers to make your equipment for a discount.
>Well, the golden ratio and some shit about perspective isn't really math tb.h
>>7835165 Oh, the age old apples and oranges argument. Let me give you my 2 cents on it:
If we lived in a world where art didn't exist at all, everything would've focused on performance and performance only. Viking ships wouldnt've had those marvellous carved dragonheads, everybody would dress in the same effiecient clothes, etc. You can neither say you'd live or wouldn't live in this world, since it is BY DESIGN that the need for art in inexistant.
But, judging from our current standpoint (i.e. this universe), art is indeed very important. The need of art is what requires us to have hobbies and even to simply have fun. Art is that little presence in all of us which pushes us to create something never-seen-before.
One could even argue based on that previous statement that even STEM is in its own way, art. And he'd be right.
>>7835860 >Every scientific discovery can be rediscovered by procedural step You have no way of knowing that. It's possible that many important discoveries were made partially due to thoughts which were unique to the individuals who made the discoveries. Conversely, if Michelangelo were never to have existed you can't be entirely sure that someone else wouldn't have sculpted exactly the same David by chance.
>>7836003 I know it's "STEM" m8 that's not my point, it's a low paying, easy and unprestigious degree.
When people talk about "STEM" in the prestigious connotation they are mostly referring to engineering and math, physics, chemistry to a lesser extent.
The nett result is that people who study X engineering say they study X engineering when it's relevant, physics majors say they're studying physics etc. . A faggot in an IT major will say they're doing "STEM degree" because they know people will associate that with the money and prestige of engineering. This isn't everyone in crap majors who behave like this, but there aren't exactly just a few who do it either.
I don't like STEAM. Terms like STEM are deliberately exclusionary because they are meant to be a reasonably specific categorisation. The term 'STEM' isn't used to imply that non-STEM subjects are worthless, but mainly that STEM subjects are in some way similar that subjects outwith the STEM classification are not. The similarities are primarily that these subjects have knowledge that is technical or in some way applicable to the real world and the jobs market. I think there are cases where postmodern thinkers are right about the narrow views we hold in regard to the definitions of certain words ("art" is the classic example) but I disagree when these terms are narrow so that we can more easily understand the world. 'STEM' helps us make comparisons about which degrees tend to get employed in industry, for example.
>>7835180 This post is probably right in that a lot of liberal arts majors don't realise that not only can STEM majors be creative, but also that a certain degree of creativity is actually required to succeed in most STEM subjects.
It's typical of /sci/ to be elitist and say non-STEM degrees aren't valuable, but I think they do have value, it's clearly just a different sort of value to the value STEM degrees have. If there were one subject area I might consider adding to STEM it would be Economics (STEEM?) because it has good employment options and has become increasing rigorous within the past few decades, but I don't really know quite enough about it to know if that's a good idea or not.
The term STEM is literally only used to recruit K-12 kids into technical fields when they go to college. It's literally just a fucking publicity meme used by people who AREN'T in technical fields.
Not a single fucking company is ever referring to themselves as a "STEM company", or working in the "STEM industry", etc etc. Nor have I ever heard a working academic in "STEM fields" refer to his/her career as a STEM career. It's just a fucking acronym that's overused and misunderstood because everyone misuses it, and the cycle continues.
>>7836124 Companies don't call themselves STEM companies, but those companies hire around all of STEM.
In a random tech/science company you will see engineers, physicists, mathematicians, chemists, IT people, etc.
A good example of this would be big aerospace companies. They have mechanical, electrical and aerospace engineers. They have physicists working with those engineers. Then they have a team of chemists and chemical engineers working with materials. Then they have various mathematicians and computer scientists for modelling. Then, they will likely have various IT people who take care of their network and the computers that everyone else uses.
That is what unites STEM. What you will never see in big aerospace companies are fucking artists or writers making cute designs to 'inspire' the scientists.
I just want to remind everyone that Steve Jobs claimed in a speech that a class he took in college, before he dropped out, was a calligraphy class that turned out to be essential for him later on. That class helped him come up with the idea of including different fonts in his word processor.
Both STEM and art serve important purposes, but there are way too many people going for art for the amount of jobs that exist, just like some STEM majors are over-produced, like biology (at the bachelors degree level).
>>7836352 It can be in a way. When doing calligraphy you're supposed to put some personal flair into it. Its a very subtle and highly disciplined creativity, but is still there. Granted, I don't think a single calligraphy class would drive this home much.
>>7835180 As an arts major, I know that arts can be very valuable to society.
Majoring in Linguistics and Psychology, I am well on my way to becoming a certified Speech-Language Pathologist, working with elementary-aged children to correct speech disorders and impediments.
But even I know that arts are, for the most part, pure bullshit. While they CAN be beneficial to society, this highly depends on what kind of arts degree you have. If you majored in race/gender studies or art history or creative writing, then I'm sorry. You may as well have been given a napkin with "congrats you can think" written in crayon, instead of your degree.
It's a fucking shame that universities are even allowed to call those things degrees. It just gives people the delusion that being able to point out when someone is racist/sexist or tell how old a painting is or being able to write a book report is a valuable skill and makes them just as valuable as anyone with a STEM degree.
When it comes down to it, STEM is necessary for a society to flourish and progress. Arts are merely a luxury.
>When it comes down to it, STEM is necessary for a society to flourish and progress. Arts are merely a luxury.
Excepts the Arts like philosophy, literature, print and design are the main reasons why the human population has excelled against every other species on this planet. Other species have shown capacity to engineer their own structures utilizing the environment around them. Other species have shown capacity to build their own tools even if they are simplistic. Inventions and practices that we hold dear and prop up for reasons why we're the most complex species have been revealed to be methods that have been done by other species in a similar manner before our prominence came.
The farms that humans cultivate, ants do a similar thing too but with fungi. Housing structures that humans utilize for mass living spaces, sociable weavers do a similar thing too with large nesting structures. The internet which humans use for long distance communication and shared resources, plants do a similar thing too through mycelium.
Animals throughout have shown to create novel engineering structures and methodology. Yet despite this no other species on earth has shown the ability to create text and visual forms on materials that exists longer than their own life spans. No other species have dedicated millennial over millennial in culminating theories of the mind, one's agency, belief and perspective.
The emerald wasp can biochemically modify the nerves and brain of a cockroach just as a human can do. But unlike the human, the emerald wasp cannot write down and explain the reasoning behind it's methods to be reflected upon it.
>>7835254 Alright motherfuckers, for those who didn't believe me, here comes the proof. I got a copy from the office. >Literally the first word on the cover is diversity on top left corner >#looklikeanengineer >Steam shines in star wars, as if fucking anything in star wars is remotely based on science
Anon you didn't have to post it, I personally believe you because I have done teaching in a couple of k-12 schools for a few years and saw said magazines (albeit more colorful and illustrative) myself for kids to work on.
>>7837302 I figure it'll entertain some anons on here >>7837304 It's not insecurity, its a refusal of being fucking lied to. This shit is being pushed on us from left and right, and if we don't fight back we'll soon be wondering why wages are worse and the industry is stagnating. Hint: the only fucking reason this is being pushed is because the kikes know women work for less. They're not as aggressive in their salary negotiations and are therefore cheaper to hire and keep in the long run.
>>7837333 >Don't forget to mention the wagegap again xD >Force men to hire underqualified women solely for diversities sake >create a "culture" where women feel they belong, because again work should be just like a TV sitcom with everyone having lots of fun all the time. Oh, and nobody gets work done, because that would be a drag >Gotta tell women exactly what to do get promoted, they're too stupid otherwise to figure shit out on their own
>>7837354 last one for now, I have more but I think I'm gonna take this to pol. Anyways sci, I hope you good goys enjoy your future working in STEAM. Remember, you're gonna have to pick up all the slack for these diversity hires
Are american women and blacks so stupid that they cannot make the decision to work in STEM on their own? Do they have to be pampered to death before they even consider the idea? For fucks sake man.
I'm glad I am not from America. In my university there is clearly a racial divide. What I mean is that in my pure mathematics group there are 0 blacks, all the blacks are fucking packed in biology. Biology, as we know is low paying and not even a real science.
But that is good, because if a black guy wanted to study mathematics he could. They don't need a bunch of fucking preachers telling them
>PLEASE BY THE GRACE OF YOUR SUPERIOR SELF, BLESS US WITH THE MIGHT OF YOUR PRESENCE IF ONLY FOR A FEW SECONDS IN THIS HERE DARK PLACE WE CALL STEM BECAUSE YOU AND ONLY YOU CAN CARRY US ONTO A NEW AGE OF SUCCESS AND BEAUTY!
>>7837373 Media is intent on selling them the idea of STEM, but not on any of the actual work involved in it. This is the biggest problem I think, they're told go be an engineer, but none of them are told what an engineer actually has to do. They're sold a high paying fantasy and obscure the fine print associated with it, aka at the very least being a competent mathematician and having problem solving skills
Hold your horses anon, before you completely blow your gasket you should know white males and asians also get forced fed to do certain fields.
And don't say it doesn't happen because Asians have a perpetual stereotype being forced to doing medicine, military and engineering. Along with White males being funneled into law, business and politics because muh father wants to carry on the family name. I.E. the fucking Rockefellers.
>>7837403 > Asians have a perpetual stereotype being forced to doing medicine, military and engineering.
By their parents, which is a fine influence. Furthermore, to funnel them into STEM their parents don't baby them. They make them study their ass off for their entire youth until they are robots. Blacks instead get affirmative action which means they don't even have to study on par with an asian.
These are too completely different mentalities.
>Along with White males being funneled into law, business and politics
>By their parents, which is a fine influence. Furthermore, to funnel them into STEM their parents don't baby them.
But that's still treating asian children as if they're too stupid to make the decision to into STEM themselves. The only difference is the government and private industry isn't pickingup the tab. But you can bet the social climate does influence the parents to make their kids do so.
> Except they are not.
Are you serious? Are we really going to have this conversation? Do I need to fucking list dozens of famous white families that made it their life's mission to carry the "name"? Are we really going to have conversation about the valid existence of "old money"?
>>7837439 >But that's still treating asian children as if they're too stupid to make the decision to into STEM themselves.
You are correct but while the strategy is not >baby them and make accommodations until they feel just right then it is all fine to me. Actually, if affirmative action stayed in place, but in high school and primary education, standards on black students were higher then I would be perfectly fine. In that world, black students would be literally superior because they would have had to go through a much harder education to graduate. That makes sense to me.
>Are you serious?
Yes I am because you, like many other SJWs, are confusing 'white male' with 'rich'. Rich kids go into business or law because they know that when they graduate, they will be CEOs of their dad's company or will be given a small loan of 1 million dollars to start their own venture.
But this is only the 1%.. Not all white people are part of the 1%. You may argue that within the 1% there are more whites, and you may be right, but still the vast majority of whites are middle class and poor, just like the vast majority of blacks and asians.
Most people are middle class or poor.
If you come from a low income family, you will never have the stability to study law or business if you don't have some kind of passion or talent that will allow you to succeed. Most people like this study STEM because STEM is what allows poor people to become billionaires.
In other words, stop fucking generalizing. You racist.
>>7837439 >dozens Wow anon. LITERALLY DOZENS OF US. xDDDD Fact is whites are simply told to work hard and you'll make it, you don't have to be an ultra billionaire, but you'll still live comfortably. Whether that hard work happens to be in STEM or law or business is irrelevant, as the idea behind how we measure success is the same.
>>7835229 >Nobody except autistic people thinks art isn't important >>Autism suits mathematics more than anything. Nobody except == Only the proceeding (autistic people) thinks art isn't important == believe art to be unimportant ->>> Autistic people believe art to be unimportant.
>>7835220 Ackchually the study of aesthetics can help engineering. When making things I find that aesthetically pleasing shapes tend to perform more efficiently. Symmetry being the obvious example. I have made some neat designs by having the parts "flow" together.
> Yes I am because you, like many other SJWs, are confusing 'white male' with 'rich'.
So then it's acceptable to just ignore establish restaurant business owners who keep to the family name and get their children to continue the business. It's acceptable to just ignore farming business owners who do the same thing in keeping up with the name and getting their children to continue. These businesses are not all millionaire/ billionaire vestments and clearly involve the middle class.
Also I'm not stating all whites are the 1% but that they too are force fed to go into jobs and fields that they may not otherwise do under their own desire.
I noted dozens because those "dozens" represent the gold standard of carrying family names and tailoring their children to go into one specific thing with zero input from what the kid wants to do instead.
If you want a more broad example that extends to the thousands then as I pointed above look into farming and restaurants businesses.
>>7837082 Because sociologists portray it as a "science", which is correct in the technical sense. They're also really insecure about it, and professors spend the first day of class lecturing about how it's "totally a real science guys."
>>7836795 >Tfw take a film and lit class and the bimbo next to me can't even give me decent feedback on a two page essay. >Tfw had not paper to give feedback because she didn't even do it even though we had two weeks to finish it Ahhh general classes are always a good time.
>>7837675 >>7837678 >History is systematically collected information about the past. When used as the name of a field of study, history refers to the study and interpretation of the record of humans, societies, institutions, and any topic that has changed over time.
>Traditionally, the study of history has been considered a part of the humanities. In modern academia, history is occasionally classified as a social science.
Okay I'll concede. It's usually considered as humanities, but It is *sometimes* classified by modern academia into social sciences. That's probably because they want to be more politically correct and please a bigger crowd or whatever, like that in OP. Systematically collected information about the past is per definition not science
>>7837373 >Are american women and blacks so stupid that they cannot make the decision to work in STEM on their own? >>7837395 >Media is intent on selling them the idea of STEM, but not on any of the actual work involved in it don't you retards remember your own lives? how did you get the idea, in the first place, that "science" (whatever the fuck it was supposed to be) is awesome and that you should study hard to work as a "scientist"? what was discovery channel supposed to sell? and what are you doing now, are you really doing "science", or just being a "productive member" of this capitalistic society, producing wealth for someone else and being content of making a little bit more than most people? how many people are REALLY doing science? most "scientific" papers either repeat the same bullshit someone else said some time ago, try to sell a patent/product to big companies, or are produced by these big companies to create new products and markets... only a handful people are doing real science, and then, it's just so they can become rich.
there is no romantic idea of what science is supposed to be, this is/was just what the TV sold to us. you bought their products, and here you are, in the "science" board...
>>7837688 did you not? think about it... (and, no, I'm not a scientist, I didn't want to become one, my dream as a kid was to be a aircraft pilot, although when I joined uni (eng school) I wanted to be a physicist...) now, tell me, what are CSI, doctor house, etc., if not romanticized views of shitty jobs that involve science, made to promote it?
>>7837694 I doubt they were specifically made to promote science. They are romanticized versions of those jobs. Anyways I didn't have those shows when I was younger. I had a curiosity about the world, since I was born, and I wanted to know more about it. I listened to my elementary school math teacher telling me cool stories about Gauss, and he made math pretty fun in general. So I decided to study it.
Yes, they are romanticized views of jobs that involves science, but they are not made to promote it. Do you think they made The Big Bang Theory because someone wanted more physicist in the world ? God have mercy on us. It was made as a satire trying to focus on a different than normal public
I'm a theatre major. This is the single most fucking retarded thing I've ever heard of. It's artfags that are mad that science nerds get more respect than us. It's also probably some stupid attempt to backdoor turning the Science department into the SJW shitfest that the rest of education has become. >>7835180 This guy hit the nail on the head.
>>7837755 You're mixing up poser faggots with geniune artists. Since art has always been vaguely defined, there have been opportunities for people to insert their bullshit as art, there were even whole movements about this.
>>7837303 >look like an engineer >I look like an engineer and so do you! So that's everyone then? Good to know I've got the look down. >challenging communities from striving to thriving Why would you challenge communities that were striving and thriving? Wouldn't it be better to challenge somewhere like Detroit? Why is William doing the challenging? He's a past it pop singer who now tries to act as 'intellectual' and 'different' as possible at every given opportunity, but he doesn't have so much as a bachelors degree - not even in the arts.
>>7837316 This 'study' is most likely a load of bull. Diverse? They're diverse in the sense that these groups probably include a number of Chinese, Japanese and Indian engineers. That's what I don't get about this; science has always been incredibly inclusive but now they're asking those in STEM fields to hang their heads in shame because not enough women and Africans are included? As if pilling in a load of black people will somehow make your company magically run more efficiently? That's stupid. Science has always been open to those who have the talent and want to work in that environment. If there aren't enough women and blacks, it's because they're not as interested as you think they are. Not everything has to be a perfect rainbow, and trying to force companies into hiring absolutely anyone black and/or female, regardless of competence, with some tenuous link to STEM is going to ruin the industry. How hard is it to just make people into numbers and go on expertise and experience alone? That way you get the best person for the job, and these SJWs can't bitch about racism in the one field that has been multi-ethnic from the very start.
>>7835165 >Science, technology, enineering, math all are rigorous disciplines right answers are right, and wrong answers are wrong. >everything is based on study, experimentation, and the scientific method >art is in the eye of the beholder
>>7837786 They didn't source any of the studies in the studies they mentioned in the article, but yes its a load bullshit. Why? Because if it worked companies would already be fucking doing it. I hate how average americans think that CEOs just sit around and collect cash. They have serious obligations to meet, and they are required to review the best option for their company. They would have obviously considered hiring more blacks if it actually helped. This new shit is more for appeasing the left and not losing their funding/spending.
>>7837796 Anybody who's hired women already knows how it goes. If it's anything that doesn't involve customer relations, they burn out, they get pregnant after working the minimum amount of time for benefits, they take their leave (paid or unpaid), and the vast majority just quit after that to raise their kid.
>>7837763 I don't give a shit if you're fucking Bach or Monet. Art doesn't tangibly contribute to the advancement of humanity, and doesn't logically belong in STEM in ANY way, shape or form. If there's any other field that should be rolled into STEM, it's medicine.
For technical drawing just grab engineering comm. text.
If you want more realism, drawing qts etc. get "drawing on the right side of the brain" by Edwards (ignore the shitty pseudo-science and rants and just do the exercises). Also consult /ic/'s sticky for more details.
>>7837359 >Anyways sci, I hope you good goys enjoy your future working in STEAM. Remember, you're gonna have to pick up all the slack for these diversity hires That's why I'm starting my own firm, it's what happened in South Africa, they fired all the whites in major companies like the semi-national power company, in the end the former employees now in their own independent firms are getting paid double what they used to in consulting fees by their former companies to fix everything going wrong.
In the end wishfull thinking and anti-white "diversity" isn't going to keep your turbines running.
>Implying all Asian and White parents are the same Most aren't anything like your stereotypes. Take your racist bullshit to >>>/pol/.
If you look at actual, objective studies like IQ scores it's obvious why more Asians and Whites end up in those professions. You don't need to make racist assumptions, just look at the statistical facts.
>>7837687 >how did you get the idea, in the first place, that "science" (whatever the fuck it was supposed to be) is awesome and that you should study hard to work as a "scientist"? I was inspired to pursue science and engineering when read an article on the Bohr atomic model in an old German encyclopedia (I was 6). This was after reading several unrelated articles which eventually brought me to that page. I was more interested in the fact that I didn't fully understand the article, but wanted to, there was no pretty space pictures and stock photos of people in lab coats holding money. I saw a ton of work required in front of me required to understand the article and I quickly decided that it would be worth it.
If you seriously fell for pop-science I'm sorry, but that's not what science is and you're pretty stupid for not properly researching careers and/or interning during high-school.
>>7835165 My mother is a ChemE and dad's an Industrial engineer. I want to study art history. Entrance exams and shit are in 4 months and I still haven't come out to them. They're going to be pissed when they find out? How shameful for my family/10 am I? Should I study something sciencey even if I'm not into that?
>>7835180 >That is not the case. >Most start ups are made by STEM graduates and most CEOs are STEM graduates. We don't need 'idea guys'.
And now you realize why the "innovation" buzzword has been pushed so hard for the last two decades. Innovation is fundamentally the idea that creativity by itself is worthless and only useful creative ideas are important. You cannot have useful ideas in product design for example, if you don't even know how the product works.
>>7837977 Using results from science does not make it a science.
There's a reason you won't see medicine included on any official government list of STEM majors. It's also the same reason E has it's own letter. Only utter idiots think medicine is a scientific discipline, it's a discipline on it's own, one much older than science and with it's own principles and practices completely independent of science. Same with Math, which obviously has applied branches using a lot of results from science and interdisciplinary overlap in mathematical physics (key point of "interdisciplinary" being they are different disciplines).
Anyway medicine/engineering/math is more prestigious than science anyway and doesn't need to try and whore itself in like all those shitty lib arts disciplines just to be assosciated with lab monkeys.
>>7837687 >how did you get the idea, in the first place
DIscovery channel? What the fuck are you talking about? Ever since I was in fucking kinder I was a genius in mathematics. Back then I would add and substract like a god. Throughout all my school life I was good at mathematics.
Surprise surprise, I am now studying mathematics in college. I chose that on my own. Discovery channel didn't influence me. I don't even think there is a discovery channel counterpart for mathematics.
>>7835254 Companies want more people to study STEM subjects, because they want to push the wages down. They are trying to make this happen by advertising towards women and niggers. These campaigns are often made by bunch of ad agency wankers who completely underestimate the amount of motivation you need to have to understand these challenging fields. This has nothing to do with ideology, you fucking mouthbreather.
>>7837967 >They're going to be pissed when they find out? In my experience, yes. >How shameful for my family/10 am I? 10/10. Prepare to be cut off and pay for your studies out of pocket. They will pretend you don't exist at family dinners. It's fucked up, but that's my anecdotes from all my friends who came from professional career families (incl. law+medicine, not just STEM). >Should I study something sciencey even if I'm not into that? Fuck no, who cares what your family thinks? Plently of smart and motivated people can end up succesful in the arts. The competition is also less intense than STEM because most people in art aren't used to forcing themselves to work hard. And at the end of the day you have a higher chance of being succesful in art than STEM if you're only passionate about the former.
I'm a ChemE btw, I'm not being biased towards art.
>>7835885 This is an awful argument. It might have taken longer to reach the scientific conclusions without many of the great scientists and mathematicians that have lived, but eventually, we would reach the same logical conclusions. It isn't like natural laws change depending on who is trying to model them.
You think I'm making this up? You think this force feeding bullshit is exclusive to blacks and women today?
So you think these south korean kids are just magically building and attending these night schools where they're force to do nothing but studying and testing for hours on end after school on their own volition? You think the chinese teens centuries ago enjoyed wanting to be stressed out and exhausted to the breaking point doing nation wide testing?
Hell fucking no, the parents, the culture and even the government has force fed these kids to do this shit. Them going into medicine, going to STEM fields, doing intensive testing. Kids don't naturally do this, nor have the foresight to do this on their own unless something is compelling them hard to do it.
So take your piece of trash IQ statistics and shove it up your ass you misanthrope. Unlike the /pol/tards you are accusing me of being I don't waste my time making shit up for the hell of it.
The point is to prove the "force feeding" of STEM (or any topics really) isn't exclusive to blacks and women, which has been both a topic and a crutch of many arguments/ discussions in this thread and others.
There are anons who are straight up denying history of "force feeding" kids, teens and adults (better known as fucking INDOCTRINATION) throughout the world as if this phenomenon is something new.
The grand irony to it all is that some of these same anons even now bitch about the uselessness of the majority of blacks and women in society. So now when something is being done to make them more useful the anons bitch still because "hurr they're bringing down the field(s)", well guess what? The "sub 120 IQ" people can be seen as bringing down the fields too but here we are still progressing forward.
Yeah, shit could be better. STEM could be filled with only genius kids who are all payed the 300k start math meme with women actually valuing intelligence over everything else. But life isn't "perfect" and we have to live in a flawed world, instead of bitching anons should be glad something worthwhile is being mobilized.
I pretty sure you meant to point to the forth link I posted when you made your rebuttal correct?
Either way it's an example of an overall picture showing a growing population of chinese men getting tired of the bullshit happening there. You can easily google other articles or watch specials done by news programs like NHK.
>>7838183 Alright I understand what you're saying a bit better now and I agree with that. The original crituque was mostly referring to ghetto American Asians (not a small population) where learning is just as discouraged as in impovershed black neighbourhoods. I recall studies on SAT scores at least showing that races in the same income brackets perform as you'd expect from the IQ studies. But the fact that they are disadvantaged by AA in the first place is pretty racist because you're assuming (A) all Asians retain the hard working culture from their ancestors as if it's in their genes and (B) all Asians are born into middle class and up professional families, when the reality is there's more Asians outside the upper/-middle class than in it and if you know anything about the culture in Asian and White ghettos it's extremely anti-intellectual.
I am aware that AA considers income brackets, but within that race is a far more powerful weight, which it shouldn't be. And anyway why is it that hard work of individuals isn't rewarded anymore? Shouldn't that be what we are aiming for rather than punishing Asians because of a perceived "hard working" culture? We're saying that race and gender is more important than actual work which doesn't translate into the real, physical economy at all.
>>7838183 >>7838229 >So now when something is being done to make them more useful the anons bitch still because "hurr they're bringing down the field(s)" But that's his point, something is NOT being done because showing pretty pictures of blacks and females in lab coats does fuckall to actually help get blacks and females into science. You have this vague promise of money and prestige, but then they sign up for engineering and most drop out in the first semester as soon as any work needs to be done. You have many of these females graduating who barely got their degree and can only find crappy sub-60k entry jobs, then they quit and tell everyone how shit STEM is or how the "white male patriarchy" in engineering discriminates against women when in reality it's the exact same for white males in their position who had to work their way up after performing poorly in undergrad with no internships. (in fact all studies who it's much easier for women and non-whites to get into top jobs/academia)
If you read the articles the Anon posted, they are literally telling companies they should promote them into top STEM salary job based only on their gender and race with no mention of merit or quality experience. It's rediculous and doesn't help anyone long term.
The basic assumption here is that outcome is free and depends only on what the government/company CEOs are willing to give you rather than hard work of individuals. If you keep promoting incompetant people just because you like their race/gender, your company will fail; because physical laws don't bend to political idealogy and if you design a piece of crap wishful thinking won't make it work.
What they SHOULD be doing is changing public school curricula to make it more challenging, for all races. If you really want all races to be like Chinese and SK then you should be doing what they do.
>>7838197 I wasn't criqueing your post just the article title and yes I meant the 4th link it doesn't provide any information into how common it is for "diaosi" to leave Beijing and actually be a success; I doubt most people who leave are living under better conditions at all.
>>7838100 Wow, didn't expect a reasonable answer on this board. The pressure they're putting on me is crazy. It's not even about money, it wouldn't be so hard for me to find a job in a museum or a gallery with an Art history degree where I live. And the pay is small, but enough to live and I don't ask for much.
I've seen mom's PhD paper and shit look too complicated and abstract to understand. Won't even get started about dad's work. I guess I'll go my way, can't see myself in STEM in life. Thanks.
>>7837926 Because most engineers are aspies who have to track their progress like they're leveling up in an MMO Having actual certifications for drawing skills would be really helpful for someone who can't gauge his own progress
>>7838267 That's really not true at all, I'm a ChemE and you're replying to my post. I draw as a hobby and learned from the text I posted (and some solid advice from >>>/ic/). Most of my colleagues don't need the kind of validation you're implying to do something, most have hobbies completely undrelated to their career and don't get certs for it if they don't legally need it.
It's not like it would help your career to have certs for it and everyone already assumes you can do technical drawing if you have an engineering education.
>>7835806 >mudslime doodles are math because they're called "geometric" >certain patterns are amenable to study when considered as mathematical objects, even though this has literally nothing to do with their aesthetic value >the process of making art can be described physically, who'd have thunk it?? >a guy once used a 3-dimensional coordinate system to describe color >I apparently don't understand that "computer graphics" is not a synonym for "digital art"
To the self-similarity page, do you have the slightest idea what "compact topological space" and "non-surective homeomorphism" mean? Also
>I think BLOWING YOUR OWN LAB GLASS is at least a partially reasonable thing to do You don't appear to have a fuccing clue fampai
>>7835165 The whole point of STEM was to categorize education into two basic concepts: Maths-based stuff and Arts-based stuff. The idea of adding arts to STEM seems counterintuitive because we've already got a word for what TEAM represents, and that word is education. We don't need to be SO inclusive that a category becomes meaningless. If we include EVERYTHING in one category, what's the point of having it?
>Tl;dr: STEAM makes rhw categorization of education pointless and is therefore not a very good movement to be part of.
>>7835165 >science, technology, engineering, ART, mathematics One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong... "STEaM" is just another example of this generation's "Everyone's a winner!" mentality. It might as well not even have an acronym anymore because Arts + Sciences is just about everything you could ever possibly do.
>>7838098 >they want to push the wages down True, but marginal and unrelated. Social pressure to hire unqualified and unmotivated employees isn't helpful to business and can't be explained that way. Though the STEM recruitment drives from the cold war certainly made the industry far more monopsynsistic and certainly have had a larger impact. >inb4 shanley pushes her toxic rhetoric because the industry secretly pays her because it somehow benefits them
>>7838704 >>showing of No. I'm sick and tired of pretentious pseudointellectuals with unexamined uncritical views acting like they understand something they clearly don't even desire to, solely to pick up this sort of perverse social capital and admiration and to feed off others' equally lazy, uncritical perceptions of them as LOLZ SO DEEP because they've bothered to build up a newspaper headline type knowledge of science or whatever else and feel entitled to admiration and acclaim for it. The type that cope with the fact they know jack shit by denial rather than sincere effort and self-improvement. Your mention of DK is pure projection.
That said, I don't resent artists. Just you pathological narcissists.
Also there are similarities in the organizational approach between voronoi digram and mosiac art in the way of tessellation. Thus why there is a particular term used for partitioning called centroidal voronoi tessellation which involves other clustering methods in computer graphics.
It's true that most artist can't but most artist aren't developing new design methodologies, mediums or attempting any pure academia studies after achieving their undergrad degrees.
Either you are going to have ask some specialized art historians or senior level computer science/lighting and design majors at companies like pixar who help pioneer those methods themselves or utilize them heavily on a technical level.
>>7839613 You're still confusing computer graphics the CS field with the specific application of these techniques to art, and dumping sciency sounding links you clearly don't understand but believe are relevant because they have that magic name in them. You must have at least heard of "vector versus bitmap graphics" as it pertains to fidelity and file size for pdf or djvu files, or heard the term "graphical user interface" once before. I hope.
It's as if you were claiming all of organic chemistry as art because the nature of pigments and oils you choose for oil painting can be predicted and your decisions informed by their physical/chemical properties, or that all of electronics engineering is art because people use digital cameras for fine art photography.
>It's true that most artist can't but most artist aren't developing new design methodologies, mediums or attempting any pure academia studies after achieving their undergrad degrees So you think artists as a whole should only be judged by the merits of the very best and most accomplished among you? While using a radically different standard for STEM guys and painting us all as uncreative, narrow-minded eggheads.
>who help pioneer those methods themselves or utilize them heavily on a technical level This is another clear example of science feeding art, and not the other way around.
> You're still confusing computer graphics the CS field with the specific application of these techniques to art, and dumping sciency sounding links you clearly don't understand but believe are relevant because they have that magic name in them.
Except the only thing "sciency" about my posts is the fact the applications and methods being spoken about fall within field of study called "computer science" which is more related to math in general.
The entire point of these posts have been to show that art has mathematical properties within it. Yet you have suddenly viewed this as some attempt to hijack/ piggyback when all that's being talked about are similarities.
> It's as if you were claiming all of organic chemistry as art because the nature of pigments and oils you choose for oil painting can be predicted and your decisions informed by their physical/chemical properties, or that all of electronics engineering is art because people use digital cameras for fine art photography.
If that's what you are reading into these posts then you have miss the entire point. No one is claiming entire fields as art, if that was the case I would be arguing the "math is art" approach but I haven't since the two are clearly their own well defined fields. But even two well defined fields can have similarities between each other since they can interact with the same subject matter at times.
For instance Organic Chemistry and Art would have similarities not simply because pigment and oil mixtures but because techniques being used to prevent oxidation tend to converge in the restoration of paintings on a given mediums.
Or how the similarities between Electronic Engineering and Art comes not merely through cameras and photography. But through the shared study of characteristics in diffraction grating that gives way to structural coloration. Since both fields work with the same subject matter (light) it once again stands to reason similarities would occur.
> So you think artists as a whole should only be judged by the merits of the very best and most accomplished among you? While using a radically different standard for STEM guys and painting us all as uncreative, narrow-minded eggheads.
Now you're putting words in my mouth. Where the hell are you even getting this rhetoric from when none of my posts have painted STEM majors as uncreative, narrow-minded people?
>This is another clear example of science feeding art, and not the other way around.
No it's a clear example of math feeding art, which once again you have seem to miss the entire point. Seriously how are you missing this point when every fucking post I have put in this thread has been about the shared similarities between math and art along with math properties in art? Have you just not been following the thread closely enough? Are you confusing my posts with others?
"Arts" people who realize they have no marketable skills and are trying to attach themselves to fields that still have some respect.
Can people with art degrees even do art anymore? Increasingly large numbers can't draw, paint, or sculpt with any skill. They go into Contemporary, which has degenerated into a gross-out shock contest, because the market is (was?) a huge bubble.
>>7835271 Your head is well above the cloudline if you honestly believe mass media doesn't already bombard everybody with art and music every day. You don't need to go to school to participate in critical thought. Just read a fucking book. Science courses are fact-based and notoriously harder to pickup which actually justifies taking a STEM degree.
>>7835165 when art majors outgrowth their simbolism/impresionism bullshit and start again with proportions, harmony and geometry then someone might consider to let them enter the STEM fields under engineering, otherwise fuck of leeches.
Good, fags like us we need less competition in the actual stem fields, the whole STEM field is being pushed crowded by normies who want their 6 figures starting because Zuckerburg and Lockheed is pushing STEM for creating a cheaper recruitment pool
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