If women and men were truly treated equally in this world, there would be no need for transgender surgery; people would feel free to be as masculine or feminine as they wanted, regardless of what was between their legs. However, we are a long way from a gender-neutral society, so in the meantime, people who work better as a different gender than the one they're treated as must have surgery in order to change it and fit into society. Sad, really. Why are we not working to overthrow gender roles instead? It is the instant cure. Let people be who they want to be and they will not feel forced to alter their bodies to conform to you.
>If women and men were truly treated equally in this world, there would be no need for transgender surgery;
How do you know this? People transition for a variety of reasons but bodily discomfort is a big one. A lot of them were gender-nonconforming before. There are people who were conservative and hypermasculine before then transition and say they don't need to be like that now that they aren't men (like that boxing promoter, whatever their name is). That makes me wonder. But I don't think that's the norm.
If they only have social dypshoria, then yeah, they're just shitheads.
Some people feel uncomfortable being treated as a guy too, but it's still primarily body dysphoria.
I'd still hate my dick and my flat chest and my disgustingly manly jaw if women were allowed to have those.
Social dysphoria matters but the motivation comes back to body dysphoria. I hate being read as a guy because it reminds me of masculine stuff about my body ad also makes me feel like all the effort I put into my appearance is a waste of time. I'm always confused by people that say they only have social dysphoria because none of that applies to them. I don't think they're really trans they just want to claim oppression without having to do anything difficult.
Some people would still need it. It's helpful for many. And when better surgeries are available (lab grown vaginas and uteri), they'd be even more in demand since they'd be truly functional I'm addition to cosmetic.
But surgery is not essential to a trans identity, and needn't be essential for societal acceptance if that identity, as the long history if pre-modern identities (Hijra, kathoey, galli, two-spirit, etc) demonstrate.
>If women and men were truly treated equally in this world, there would be no need for transgender surgery
While that's great and all, you'd still need to tell biology to treat women and men equally.
And biology just ain't having that shit.
I want to change my body, my actual physical sex as much as possible. The social aspects are sort of secondary. It's a feeling that my body itself is wrong, not that I want to do feminine stuff, whatever that means. People always seem to miss this part because it's all drowned out by the trenders' bullshit. I don't even plan on acting any more feminine than your average tomboy.
>implying changing society will give me lady bits.
Actually, I'm physically a boy, I'm well integrated in society as a boy (and my role does not bother me at all) BUT, I'm feel sad inside me. The problem is about how I see myself, not about how others see me.
This. My parents were an engineer and a biochemist, and both felt that gender rolls were a suboptimal way to run a house. Every kid, regardless of gender, was expected to know how to sew, cook, Do an oil change and use the drill press. I even got a lecture from mom at age 6 about how color is just the reflection of a specific wavelength of EM energy, and that the pink and blue coloration of toys doesn't mean anything. The town was also liberal as fuck, and everyone was cool with trans people because the transwoman who worked at the DMV was the only staff member who seemed to understand the concept of customer service.
in short, i had the closest thing to a gender-neutral upbringing you can get without going full sweden emotional abuse mode, and trans people were accepted in my community. But it still felt off, puberty was still armageddon, and I'm still transitioning.
Gender isn't a social construct (I'm a big liberal faggot but even I admit this) so there will always be gender roles to some extent. Even if they aren't strictly enforced there will still be norms.
Many trans people experience social dysphoria, it's upsetting to not be treated as who and what you feel you are, this doesn't mean they don't experience body dysphoria as well. Anyone who claims to be trans based solely on social dysphoria is a dipshit who doesn't even understand the concept of being trans.
>I happen to like the female body more, that's it.
So you don't actually have body dysphoria?
You just want a female body because you think it'd be cooler?
Congratulations, you're not trans and you need to leave this shit for people with an actual medical problem. :) Thanks!
This is a radical feminist viewpoint. Radical feminists argue that if we abolished the social notion of gender, it would solve the disagree between the transgender person's body and the precieved social stereotypes associated with their body. Dysmorphia comes out of the relation to society's stereotypes and the body. Brain sex does not exist, as shown by how plastic the mind is. If the brain were uninfluenced by society, then it would prove brain sex exist but it is. When transgender people feel like a boy or girl, they are referring to the stereotypes associated with that sex. There is no way a man can experience the young girlhood of women and vice versa, which actually entails the entire female or male experience.
If you can't beat a country by force then do it so in another way.
Destroy family values, turn men into women, and women into men.
There is a war on gender and equality, and we've been fighting the wrong people.
Brain sex definitely does not exist. Hormones do play a part in the most extreme forms of gendered behaviour (esp. male ones...) but social factors, especially early socialisation are the most important in determining gender.
Beauvoir said that one isn't born a woman, but becomes one. That's also true for men, even more so.
Male socialisation is harsh and violent, this only coming from cultural reproduction, and it is naturally aborrhent to most children, no matter their biological sex. Boys who don't get pushed hard enough into those harsh forms of socialisation become betas if they don't socialise properly at all, MtFs if they take refuge with girls... Getting torn apart from your friends at puberty because of the diverging changes certainly is major body dysphoria fuel...
Gender neutral education and a concerted crackdown on patriarchal transmission would certainly make transsexualism a thing of the past for future generations.
Telling the current trans crowd to suck it up or go kill themselves is most callous and unfortunate, though.
TERFS not even once.
You people need to get a new hooby and really just midn your own fucking buisness.
I was 6 when i realised i was trans and wanted to have babies. that has never changed.
you entire concept of ''girlhood'' is reatarded because it's based on a flawed view that every girl feels the same or goes through the same things. Stupid, narrow minded foolish and most of all bigoted ideology and behaviour ,. and you need to fuck off.
The world wil get on fine with out you. Please leave humanity now.
jesus christ, patriarchal transmission- that's too hilarious, not only do you think the patriarchy exists but apparently has characteristics like ebola.
tbh I like dealing with terfs more than regular feminists because they're fucking insane and irrational that if anything too dramatic happens in public everyone else automatically will side with you because they're so fucking crazy no one can trust them.
Have you considered getting surgery to fix your fingers? You can't seem to type coherently.
Please note that I do not actually agree with the people you're responding to, but you're doing a piss-poor job of actually talking like a person.
Please stop trying to excuse your poor communication skills. If you want to make a point against people saying that they believe a neutral standard of raising children would lead to transgender issues disappearing, do it coherently. This is not tumblr. You cannot fragment and word-vomit here and expect decent responses; you will be met with the same quality of response you put out.
>trans are like 1% of population
>hey let's change the whole fucking society so the 1% with mental illness doesn't feel bad!!!
Wow, OP, what's next?
Giving everyone a Napoleon hat to make the schyzophrenic feel better?
you poor comprehension skills.
you see, if you were truly smart it wouldn't matter how a person typed, you'd be able to comprehend. But, since you're a stupid asshole. Thats not a possibility.
You're a pitiable person
In what way is it not a mental illness? It's on the same tier as homosexuality, multiple sclerosis, any genetically inherited disadvantage. Gay people can't naturally have children. Trans people aren't in the right body to fit with their minds. It's a simple statement of fact, it's not an insult. Trans people shouldn't be mocked any more than someone born missing an arm should be mocked, because it's unfair and out of their control.
Should society adapt to be more accepting of their presence? Fucking right it should. Should society radically change so that it revolves around the needs of a small percentage of people that can get on fine without that radical change (the complete overthrowing of gender roles that this thread is about) in the first place? No, it shouldn't. There's no good reason. Live with it.
See, you're just trying to belittle people. Saying trans people aren't sane is unfounded and silly. There's plenty of batshit trans people out there, just like there's plenty of batshit white people, batshit women, batshit everyone. You're making an assumption that makes your argument seem more convincing, but it's not a fair assumption. Knock it the fuck off.
But homosexuals do not want to mutilate their functional penises to look like vaginas but have zero functionality of one or that they don't suffer from autism or narcissism and aren't (generally) batshit crazy. Your initial argument is successfully based on false analogies.
If you leave the acquisition of minority rights up to the general 51% percent of the public, no one ever gets everywhere.
Unless you're a straight cis guy posting to try and troll, you should know this well enough.
no, radfems might be batshit insane, begoted transphobes, but the idea of breaking gender roles and feminist equality is still a core of changing society for the best. no girl should live in fear of rape and pink blue gender shit should be removed from society, so should sexualisation of women
rad fems just think that being transphobic and hating an underclass of people is ''fun'' and they waste their efforts because they cant fight the true evil of the world
There's a huge difference between being insane and having another disorder that has nothing to do with your mental stability aside from being depressed about not having the genitalia you feel you need.
You're the one making the claim that trans people tend to suffer from that kind of instability. That shit can totally get out of hand, for sure- there's plenty of cases of depression among trans people, but you're going to need to present something to back you up. "It's general knowledge" won't do.
The same way you treat cancer with chemo and lupus with steroids, or treat any other disease with medicine as needed, you treat being trans with surgery when it's required. There's nothing wrong with it.
"thinking you are born the wrong sex" is an illness PER SE.
it's nobody fault, but they're ill.
yes, even gays, except they usually live an happy life in accepting society, whereas no society can make a man feel a woman, unless hormones and surgery
People said niggers are just kept back by society and poverty, they'd be as good as whiteys given the chance.
Well, we made a nigger president, and he's been one of the worst EVER.
This to say there's a difference between man and woman, just because Hillary might BECOME prez it doesn't mean a woman can BE a prez
But it literally is. I'm gay, therefore I'm mentally ill. It doesn't really detract from my life any, so I don't need to go get treated for it, if a treatment would even work. What the fuck's the issue? Would you be insulted if you found out you had the flu and I told you that you were ill?
This is exactly what I was saying, though. It's not anyone's fault. Society should learn to live with their presence, because it's not that big of a deal. Society's not obligated to remove gender roles to appease people that much.
>wants cock in his mouth and ass
>i-i'm f-fine, i swear! you baka!
lol relax dude, this is /lgbt/, not /pol/, you don't have to defend youself.
just don't lie, that's all
You're not making an argument about why being gay/trans/otherwise abnormal isn't an illness. You're regurgitating definitions that a liberal society has put out there to make people feel better. I'm really liberal, before you go saying I'm some self-hating right wing bigot. I've just got no issue identifying aspects of myself and others.
I was raised without religion involved at all, man. Please stop making assumptions about me.
well, boys tend to act more aggressive and competitive. if you took a baby boy and raised it as a girl, it probably wouldn't act like a "normal girl". I think it's silly to suggest that men and women, on average, act in exactly the same way, when they don't. Men and women are just fundamentally different in a lot of ways, and this includes behavior.
you have to understand i'm including gays and myself too in this, and the other anon is too doing the same.
so it's not to offend trans or whatever, it's just stating this:
listen, gays are like 3% of population, and trans are maybe what 1%?
ok so 87% of people brains work a way, ours work different.
which is one is more probably to be "wrong"? theirs or ours?
Being straight means you're going to have sex as biologically intended, man and woman. Any deviation from that is an illness/disorder by definition. Jesus fuck, it's the normal for a reason. It's not like deviating from it is some crime.
This isn't an argument. This is you projecting really, really hard.
I don't know what the fuck is going on in this thread. I was trying to have an actual discussion, but maybe those are restricted to talking about grilled cheese and how to dress up in generals.
nobody chose 4chan, it chose you. Who wants to constantly fight with opposing ideas all day long for no fucking reason. It's not culturally enriching. Its not mentally stimulating either. We're here because we have no place to go. We're all social rejects. it's sad, but true. And i love each and every one of you mentally ill gaybos.
even the TERFS, because they are just scared lil children and i feel sorry for them
>This isn't an argument. This is you projecting really, really hard.
says you. too ironic.All you do is project you're opinion onto others as ''fact'' what more else can you do, you then nod yourself into ignoring anything else that disagrees with you
you're ''discussion;; is based around insular thinking and nothing else. You cant evolve an idea when you've got a Binary thinking patterns happening in your head.
Then you're just a lost cause. I'm sorry for you.
No, you're not reading what you're responding to before you respond to it. Being attracted exclusively to the same gender is an illness/disorder. It prevents you from passing on genes to children, which is kind of the point of existing as designated by the world you live in. You are leaping to conclusions and trying to put words in people's mouths. Stop it.
i'm the other anon, a cis bi guy, and I said it's an illness to mean "something different in your brain routing than 97% of the population".
that doesn't mean you can't be more sane than a lot of straight people (hell, somebody shoots schools!) but you got a mutation, something.
I didn't put "procreation" in this thing as the other anon
You can call it that too, that's totally fine. It's not black and white by any means, but it's at least abnormal and would be harmful if we didn't live in a time where you could go donate sperm or have a surrogate mother help you out.
Because you live in a period of time where the technology to do that exists. Try to imagine what it would be like if you couldn't do that. See the problem?
It's not impossible to be happy if you're depressed, just like it's not impossible to be happy if you're trans.
/lgbt/ prides itself on being the anti-tumblr, but this board is still too politically correct to have a truly honest discussion about homosexuality or transsexualism. Might as well take the discussion somewhere else.
why are there so many trutrans shitheads on this board? You don't need sex dysphoria to be transgender, not every trans person fits the same narrative of "bluu bluu i hate my penis/vagina and knew i was different since i was 2 years old"