Ancient Europe discussion

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bumperino

>>53105187
How ancient?

>>53105445
I would say from 40,000 bc to 3000bc

One thing I always wondered about is if there was a European admixture before WHG entered europe.

We know there were earlier groups that had Ydna haplogroups like C and T but would autosomal lineage did they leave behind?

>>53105669
>if there was a European admixture before WHG entered europe
It's called Neanderthal desu

>>53105669

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pe%C8%99tera_cu_Oase

>He was not more closely related to ancient European hunter-gatherers than to East Asians, suggesting that his population did not make a significant contribution to modern European ancestry. He carried modern human uniparental lineages - an extinct lineage of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N and a form of Y DNA haplogroup F exclusive of G, H, and IJ.

.

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i don't understand a shit about this shit

>>53105773
Well neanderthals certainly didnt carry our Y dna did they?

>>53105817
But even La Brana carried ydna group C which precluded haplogroup Y and the WHG, perhaps the bearers of ydna F died out and so did their autosomal lineage but modern europeans carry ydna C and T to this day, their must be autosomal remnants

>>53105878
Here is what I said in the last thread as a summary

Europe around 12,000bc
>Western Hunter Gatherers(WHG) originally inhabit europe
>WHG have dark skin and light eyes
>Some variants like Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers have light skin eyes and hair

Phase 2
>Early European Farmers from Anatolia migrate into europe
>They have lighter skin and dark eyes and hair
>Note they are not completely similar to modern Middle easterners and resemble Sardinians more
>They begin to mix with WHG
>Around the same Eastern Hunter Gatherers (EHG) in eastern Europe mix with Caucasian Hunter Gathers
>CHG come from the caucuses mountains and had previously been isolated there by glaciers
>both EHG and CHG have a mix of dark and light hair, eyes and skin

Phase 3
>The mixing of CHG and EHG produce the Yamnaya culture
>They spread out across europe after there forest homeland degraded to steppe and mix with the mix of EEF and WHG

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>>53105878
we wuz ancient farmers and sheeit frari

>>53105958

>modern europeans carry ydna C

It is very very rare. Something like 1/300 in Spain and that's where it peaks.

>>53105878
>>53106081
wow 3 autistic Sardinians in the same thread, suddendly I feel less alone

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>>53106170
i'm not sardo but i'm autistic

>>53106122
Well after three massive invasions of course, I am wondering if these truly first europeans have any genetic lineage though, it seems so far we have seen they do not but, as some still carry their ydna some autosomal dna must be lurking about

>>53106229
where are you from m8?

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>>53106170
I-I'm n-not autistic I swear

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>>53106258
umbria

>>53106247

There's such a thing as too little you know. If we started looking at the fractions of percentages we would find East Asian and African DNA in places like England, imagine something 10 times less than that. It basically wouldn't exist.

>>53106291
N-normie

>>53105187
What admixture would be the most common in Future Europe? Middle eastern or northern african?

>>53106405
mixed with your mum

>>53105958
Well C is a very old one according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130
So I don't think it's impossible that some of the Cro-Magnons/WHGs carried it when they arrived here via the Levant around 40kya

>>53106352
Perhaps, I would assume there was a decent amount of mixing between the original inhabitants and WHG though

>>53106618
I believe that the carriers of haplogroup C arrived separately and before the WHG and had a different autosomal admixture

I wonder if we could find out if WHG carried some of the older autosomal dna

>>53106618

I doubt WHG came from Levant. They probably came from the Caspian where haplo IJ can be found although very rare. Also I don't think the classical Cro-Magnons with very rectangular orbits were WHG.

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>>53105301

I would like to see a source for that.

My searching still suggests that Tacitus' Fenni, Warnefried's Scritobini/Scridefenni and Jordanes' Crefennae were one and the same people, and given the ethnogeographical descriptions they match the Finns (above Aestii and Venedi, on the shores and inland opposite the "island" where the Swedish tribes lived.

Others (especially Finns) suggest that they were in fact Lapps, but that is very unlikely, also given that Tacitus actually describes in short the Lapps as part man part reindeer (the Oxioni).

Pic related is from Warnefried's De gestis Langobardorum, written about 500 years after Tacitus and stating pretty much the same as T. described the Fenni (living like animals, eating raw flesh and wild herbs only)

>>53106921
They probably arrived around 40,000bc, it is impossible to know imo

>>53105301
Also: Finnish Heritage Disease

All Finns descend from 2 fathers who lived around 2000 BC, so this could explain why towards the end of the bronze age they declined so much.

>>53107102

It hardly matters what Tacitus wrote based on 2nd hand information passed from Swedes to Germans to Romans. We know people living in Finland at the time had an iron age culture and engaged in European trade networks from which they acquired even Roman items.

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>>53107237

The most recent common ancestor of the majority of Finnish men lived 4500 years ago. Whatever inbreeding happened back then was minor as new women were acquired constantly. Most of the "Finnish heritage diseases" are regional mutations in the north.

>>53107344
Well, I showed you another independent observation made 500 years later so I wouldn't dismiss it all that fast. I'd like to believe you but if you would be so kind to give me a reference I can follow up on...

>>53107640
"This bottleneck resulted in exceptionally low diversity in the Y chromosome, estimated to reflect the survival of just two ancestral male lineages"

Lahermo P, Savontaus ML, Sistonen P, Béres J, de Knijff P, Aula P, Sajantila A (1999). "Y chromosomal polymorphisms reveal founding lineages in the Finns and the Saami". European Journal of Human Genetics 7 (4): 447–58. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5200316. PMID 10352935

>>53107965

Sources about Finnish archaeology are going to be in Finnish so you might as well Wikipedia it.

>17 year old crap vs yesterday

Meanwhile the Irish have 1 single male lineage.

>>53108080
>Sources about Finnish archaeology are going to be in Finnish

Not necessarily, and even then they often have English abstracts or there's a journal that publishes an English synopsis. Peer reviewed research is meant to be shared.

If the journal article is in Finnish, then look at "referenced by" on the abstract page.

>>53105187
Can anyone explain me the pic?

>>53109833
Look here >>53106039

It's comparing modern Europeans to some of these anceint european groups using autosomal dna

>>53107640
there are more images than this?

moar pls

>>53107640
Moar images like this?

This thread should be a board. Awesome.