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Stalin Body Count
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I heard a guy day Stalin killed 80,000,000 people. I did done research on gulags, holodomor, and purges I think it would be closer to 35,000,000. How many do you think he killed? Do you think his death count is over or under exaggerated?
Also, no Hitler or Mao body counts, unless it correlates with Stalin's.
>>
Doesn't matter how many he killed. All that matters is he won.
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>>612155
He won WWII, but his goal was for the world to be communist, so he lost. If anything the world is more of a facist shithole.
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>>612160
Define "Facist."
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>I heard Hitler systematically killed 12 million people
>I did some research and turns out I think he only killed like 3 million people
>t. David Ivring
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>>612176
The limiting of freedom by means if government control. Like laws, all laws are designed to take freedom from people. Since WWII more governments censor people, spy on citizens, oppress minorities, and control ideas. For example, Germans aren't allowed to be nazis, Polish people aren't allowed to be communist, Saudi Arabians can't be non-Muslim, and Swedes can't insult Muslims. The world since WWII has gotten worse by means of freedom.
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>>612160
>If anything the world is more of a facist shithole.
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>>612187
>can't type
>doesn't know the definition of fascist
>thinks fascism is inherently bad
>Muh freedums
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>>612205
>Actually wants the government to control him.
>Probably sucking on /pol/'s reassuring tit
>Didn't even mention any of my claims in his argument
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>>612187
>The limiting of freedom by means if government control.
Authoritaritan is the word you are looking for.

Nothing about any of that is inherently fascist, and in fact some are at odds with fascism.
>>
It doesn't matter, he overdid it and was hugely paranoid but none could have pulled what he did.
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>>612214
>implying the purpose of government should not be to defend the people from themselves
>implying being ruled by a soulless corporate meta is better than being ruled by an authoritarian government
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>>612187
> The limiting of freedom by means if government control.
>Polish people aren't allowed to be communist, Saudi Arabians can't be non-Muslim, and Swedes can't insult Muslims.
w e w
l a d
By that definition every movement are facistic to some degree and the word becomes useless. While non-muslims aren't allowed to have Said citizenships, it's retarded to think Polish people wouldn't be allowed to be communists and Sweden not insulting Muslims are just retarded.
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>>612214
>still can't type properly
>thinking I go on /pol/
>thinking the government would control my life
>implying fascism isn't based as fuck
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>>612214
>anything I don't like is fascist
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>>612215
If you think about it, Israel, Saudi Arabia, ISIS, North Korea, China, CAR, Iraq, and Zimbabwe are fascist. They oppress racial minorities, use excessive military force, and authoritarian rules the same way Germany, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Romania, and Bulgaria did in WWII.
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If anyone can name one country or law that doesn't repress anyone's freedom I'll shut up.
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>>612232
Except none of them have any of the proper economic functions of fascism, nor do fascist goverments inherently "oppress racial minorities" or use """excessive""" force.
Germany wasn't fascist, it was National Socialism. It is related to fascism, but isn't it.
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>>612232
>They oppress racial minorities, use excessive military force, and authoritarian rules the same way Germany, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Romania, and Bulgaria did in WWII.

So you don't know what fascism is
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>>612238
>being an anarcho-communist
*SNIFFLING INTENSIFIES*
Radical freedom is bunk and anarchism doesn't work.
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>>612248
Evidence?
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If you can prove that anarchism can't work I'll end this thread.
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>>612262
If a person requires moderation of the self, then a community requires moderation in the same way.
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>>612238
>What is a country
>What is the social contract
>What is the freedom paradox
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>>612268
>>612268
Communities are made up of individual people, therefore those people have the ability to moderate themselves.
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>>612277
>>612262
You have to prove it works fucktard.
They cannot defend themselves from outside pressure, and devolve into hierarchical shit shows that eventually turn into a type of Governance.
Human nature is a bitch.
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>>612277
But the mind of a person relies on a central force to moderate all of his behaviors. One's needs affects his priorities. One's priorities affects his morals. One's morals affects his ethics, and so on. Without the central need, there is no moderation, and his actions are random. A human society works in the same way.
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>>612262
Anarchism already begot what we currently have.

It is not a fairly-land where you can exist free from all rules and influences, you can only avoid those if you are strong enough to exert your agency against everything else that threatens or seeks to control you, and those who consolidate their power will always be stronger than those who do not.
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>>612205
>>>/pol/
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>>612284
How about the period of time prior to government, and the fact the the whole world wasn't under government control until around the seventeen or eighteen hundreds, in which thousands of people lived outside of governed states. If anything most people were forced into governments.
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>>612293
>Muh boogie man.
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>>612295
Then obviously anarchism succumbed to governance, and failed.

It is isn't strong enough to perpetuate, it doesn't work.
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>>612285
Why does it need central forces to tell it what it needs? We all know that eating and drinking are needs without the state reminding us. Also, that would suggest that freedom is something to be afraid of, as if all people were murderous and evil. Central powers aren't needed to suit psychological needs, if anything they damage people's psychs by telling them what to think. Theocracies and cult-leaders (like Kim Il Sung and Stalin) are examples of states influencing people's actions in damaging ways. All the state really wants is control over human action and thought.
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>>612314
Russia used to own Armenia, are you saying that Armenia therefore doesn't deserve existence, or that Armenians are lesser people or being weak enough to submit to Russia? All you're proving here is that states exploit people's weaknesses to propagate their superiority.
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>>612319
I'm not sure what has to do with anarchism not working if it cannot resist those who consolidate their power.
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>>612326
I'm saying that not working has no correlation with being taken over.
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>>612317
Central powers don't tell you what to think, they dictate the basis of a chain of necessary moderations. The state requires stability. Stability requires status quo. Status quo requires protection. Protection requires inaction. Inaction requires law. Without any of these, there would be no law, and therefore nothing to preserve your protection.
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>>612187
>Saudis can't be non-muslim

What about all those Christian Najranis, or Those Shia in the eastern provinces?
>You can't be my stupid kind of mentally retarded Christian

Attempting to convert someone to another religion is banned in most of the Middle East. Even Cyprus bans it.
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>>612319
You're mixing up the ends and the means

>Armenia deserves

That's the end, whatever it is. Armenia deserves it's independence. Does it have the means to?

>Anarchy should be the way

It ended and was taken over. It didn't have the means.

However this anon
>>612314
Is also wrong, since they assume that the context when "anarchy lost" will always hold. The future can be different from the past
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>>612330
Something too weak to continue existing in the face of adversity effectively doesn't work.
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>>612349
>Is also wrong, since they assume that the context when "anarchy lost" will always hold. The future can be different from the past

Those who don't consolidate will always be weaker than those who do. It has nothing to do with the present state.
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>>612342
So a law has never stopped someone from doing what they want?
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>>612357
I'm sure there's been plenty of times you've wanted to do something, but didn't because it conflicted with your ethics.
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>>612356
>Those who don't consolidate will always be weaker than those who do. It has nothing to do with the present state.

Yes it does.
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>>612363
Not really, the law is really the only reason I don't do done shit I want to do, and I do some illegal stuff anyway (piracy mainly)
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>>612295
As resources increased, so did the need for control of those resources.
Economics.
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>>612148

This is ridiculous.

odern estimates of Stalin's kill count are approx 10 million.

You and "the guy" are both idiots.
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>>612380
I really want to tell you to go back to read it but you have too much autism.
You might bring back more next time.
>>612381
/argument
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>>612148
>still no his-tan
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>>612148
>University of Hawaii thread
Go to bed RJ Rummel
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>>612406
Who is Clio?
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>>612406
This is /pol/ thread
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>>612238
Sweden's Freedom of the press act, dating back to 1776, allows you to publish books, journals and newspapers as you wish. The public authorities have no right to examine or censor what you have written in advance.
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>>612437
Is she moe enough?
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>>612148
Stalin killed some Hohols
No one cares about that
Even the Poles don't care about them
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>>612148
I think his death count is frequently brought up by /pol/ to make their dear old Hitler look good.
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>>612609
I think this has more to do with their fear of communsim.
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>>612148
80,000,000 people would be like more than half of the soviet population at that time. Wouldn't it?
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>>612148
2-2.5 million political deaths ie those killed during the Great purges and the Red Terror albiet its not enterily correct to attribute them all to Stalin given his position at the time.

2.50 million in the Ukraine famine

When it comes to his kill count people tend to get rather shifty with figures hence they will use terms like "X million victims of the Great Purge", now naturally when they say victim people tend to assume execution, when in fact they include everything from imprisonment, dention for questioning or simply being sacked from a job which inflates the number deceptively.

The other fun thing that the people with the 80 million figure go for is to include people who would have been born hence for every one person killed they add a couple of potential children in as victims.

The other method is count the deaths caused by World War II as victims of Stalins communism.

Stalin is a horrid man, its beggars belief people have to actually falsify information about him and his regime to justify this.
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>>612675
>Stalin is a horrid man, its beggars belief people have to actually falsify information about him and his regime to justify this.

Distracting from the actualities of nomenklatura rule means that you get to tar any movement with red on their flag with the same brush.
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>>612618
Yep. 147 million in 1926 (209 mil in 1959).

The idea here is to include all dead from WWII as the victims of USSR and make Stalin responsible for everything.
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>>612675
> 2-2.5 million political deaths ie those killed during the Great purges and the Red Terror
Official numbers are 2,369,220 imprisoned and 642,980 executed for "political" crimes (organized crime was also "political", for example) in 1923-1953.
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>be anarchist
>unironically believe that anything beyond their specific definition is automatically fascist, no matter how actually authoritarian it is
>this can even include any other form of 'anarchism' that doesn't meet said narrow criteria, meaning a good chunk of anarchism itself arbitrarily 'fascist' now
>other anarchists see you the same way, turning the argument into an endless circlejerk over who is the bigger 'authoritarian' meanie
>fail to realize pure anarchism cannot be implemented without either compromising elements of itself, or at least only being relegated to periphery communities, never functional on a regional, national, or global scale, or without external help by said evil authoritarian bogeymen
>these are basically the same rationalizations behind communism... same ideological circle-jerking too
>sincerely believe they are not responsible for any experiments failing hard and turning into ironic, totalitarian nightmares
In other words, its the socio-political equivalent of being a perennial child.
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>>612713
Hence why I added the Red Terror part.
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>>612187
Even if your stupid definition of Fascism was correct, the idea that "Since WWII more governments censor people, spy on citizens, oppress minorities, and control ideas" is completely retarded. Do you honestly think that the British Government oppresses minorities more today than it did in the 1930s when they still had a colonial empire? Or that the US government oppresses minorities more today than before the civil rights movement?

The point about governments suppressing communists or religious minorities had been the norm for almost all of human history, it's not like the pre-WW1 governments were just open to letting communism spread. Saudi Arabia doesn't even ban non-muslims, nor does any other major Muslim state. They all allow Christians and usually Jews as well, sometimes begrudgingly Hindus too because Indians are a source of cheap labour in the middle east.
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>>612737
> Red Terror
Do you mean everyone executed by Bolsheviks during Civil War?

I don't think you can get 1.5-2 mil there. Unless you believe Denikin's commission (which was basically propaganda machine), there are only Volkov's numbers. But they include practically everything: deaths from starvation, lack of medical help and so on.
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>>612148
>holodomor
Go home, hohol, you are drunk.
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Death numbers are stupid, it just ignores why people died and turns ideologies into "death count contests".

The fact huge amounts of people died on all sides of politics is what is important and what led to these events.

What events led up to the Holodomor or Great Purge that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people? What events led up to the Holocaust that resulted in the deaths of millions or the Indian famines under the British that led to the deaths of millions.

That is all that matters, I fucking hate death count contests especially when the statistics are largely bullshit (projecting birth rates from peak periods onto the famine period, looking at that gap and counting it as deaths even though those people never even existed for example)
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>>612187
>Polish people aren't allowed to be communist
they can't be of any totalitarian ideology (nazism fascism communsim), clearly stated in the constitution famalam
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>>612187
>Germans aren't allowed to be nazi, so the world is fascist
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>>612187
You have no fucking clue what fascism is. Even a 5 minute wikipedia reading would give you more insight, but instead you decided to go full retard.
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>>612940
It's a real thing you commie fuck
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>>612759
Yeah, they sure oppressed those minorities bro. How dare they build them railroads and schools and develop their economy through mutually beneficial trade and investment, fuck em'.
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>>612615
Why can't communists name one successful implementation of their ideology in the real world?
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>>612298
>muh arguments
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>>613402
>people can't like fascist ideologies
>everyone who disagrees with me is /pol/
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>>613330
>mutual
yeah brown people do the starvin' anglo makes the money
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>>612148
No, of course Stalin killed 800,000,000 people! So respect him as you respect Napoleon.
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>anarchists absolutly blown the fuck out
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>>612187
>Since WWII more governments censor people, spy on citizens, oppress minorities, and control ideas.
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>>613461
>>anarchists
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>>613467
>>>anarchists
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>>613463
Government never changes.
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>>613335
>black guy saying leftist ideals don't work
Does he not see the irony, or is he just a black milo yannoupolis
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>>612238
The amendments to the US constitution that protect citizens rights to freedom of expression, freedom of religion, right to bear arms, universal suffrage, etc. This legislation is exclusively designed to protect the rights of the population except the right to take rights from others.
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>>613479
Milo is an attention whore, Thomas is a well educated man that doesn't drink "the lefts" coolaid.
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>>613488
>well educated
>makes retarded blanket statements
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>>613489
>has never even read a single book by him, much less knew who he is
Probably one of the most educated black men of recent times.
He is saying "the left"'s ideas festers in colleges, mainly because that's the only place they can survive.
E.g. they do not work in the real world.

Tankie please go.
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>>613496
I know who he is you fuck. He's an idiot. An educated idiot.
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>>612376
>memes
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>>612277
yes ,look at 4chan itself, we just had to make everyone anonymus in real life and then eureka, wonderful shit what you said
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>>612148
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>>613500
>calls him an idiot
>for no other reason than disagreeing with him
Come back when you have wide spread support and multiple books child.
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>>613513
I'm significantly younger than him, so I haven't had the time to publish multiple books
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>>613513
>support and publications make you relevant

Hail Empress JK Rowling I!
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>>613519
You probably never will, you have a bit too much drivel coming out of your mouth.
>>613520
Top cuck, this is the best you can do?
Please, try again.
We're comparing a no-life on a Mongolian finger painting board to a respected author and speaker.
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>>613535
>criticizes me for not backing up my points
>says everything I say is just drivel
Rightists apparently don't comprehend irony
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>>613540
>"rightist"
You haven't said anything but
>hurr durr the nigger is stoopid
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>>613549
I said he doesn't get the irony of his own idiotic blankey statements. Apparently you can't go beyond "hurr commie scum"
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>>613573
Then support your position. Because you really can't.
If you would go watch the entire discussion he gives numerous examples, mainly being the college campuses or failing industries.
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>>613573
>implying there is any irony in the statement
>implying it's untrue
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>>613588
Because the concept of abolition and civil rights were pushed by liberals and progressives, both subsets of leftists
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>>613618
>implying what happened in the past is representative of the institutions of today
Woodrow Wilshit please go.
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What about MUH ETERNAL ANGLO?

Now that would be a good thread.

Can we count the death toll from the British and American empires along with Stalin and Hitler?

Let's see who the real winner in modern times is!
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>>613618
>expansion of suffrage to the common man
t. Andrew Jackson
>abolition
t. Abraham Lincoln - Republican
>Progressivism
Started by racist Woodrow Wilson

>implying the parties of the past are those of today

As I said, drivel.
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>>613625
America was actually pretty heavily German by that time. 60% I think.
The Eternal anglo meme is pretty much a fact, greedy opressive bastards.
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>>613618
>Sure he is talking about everything leftism has done ever and not its actually relevant contemporary guise
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>>613618
>>>>>>""""""""leftists""""""""""<<<<<<
>left
>right
>history
>change
THINK YOU FOOL, THINK!
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>>613622
If you use a broad term like "the left", it implies the entire left. He could've said socialists but he didn't.
>>613635
>republican = conservative always and forever
You're either not from america or are really an idiot.
>Wilson started progressivism
The first progressive president was Roosevelt from 12 years earlier. Try again once you learn basic us history
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>>612205
So fascism is basically just edgy ultra nationalism?
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>>612160
Actually that was not his goal at all.
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>>613659
>If you use a broad term like "the left", it implies the entire left. He could've said socialists but he didn't.

Sure, the entire CONTEMPORARY left, or at least its most vocal facets. Not all progressives are socialists, social democrats maybe.
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>>613659
No. It is speaking within the time period, he is speaking about the current infestation with the higher education system. If you could think for a few more seconds, you might have gotten the point.
It's not just socialists.

You missed the entire point I was making, is that people and parties change. Republicans started as the bridge for socially liberal and economically conservative. It only became conservative conservative from about Regan, at least a hard line.
>Teddy was a progressive
Ah yes, imperialism, so progressive.
Shut the fuck up you faggot. You know jack shit about political history.
>>613669
No. Edgy ultra nationalism is edgy ultra nationalism.
Fascism has a very loose meaning bound around the people that inherent it. It basically means "for the health and well being of the people", and being reliant upon ones self. It treats the country as a greater organism, one that must be self sustaining and United.
That was just my edgy Evola pictures that I like to meme with.
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>>613705
>teddy wasn't a progressive
You really don't know what you're talking about do you? Well, stay mad over your ignorance in basic american history
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>>613674
Uh huh. Stalin's goal was socialism in one country.
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>>613713
>imperialism is progressive
>nature preserves so people can hunt animals is progressive
>regional imposition is progressive
Get the fuck out of here you fucking retard.
Wilson is established as the first "progressive" despite being a racist shitbag.
Everyone hates him.
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>>613729
Someone sounds angry that his retarded worldview fell apart. Pic related
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Good workers, never 5get the trillion billion victims of communism
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>>613732
The reason he is considered "progressive" is because of the "trust buster" meme. He didn't even break that many and Taft superceded him.
he was hardly a progressive, and it's infantile to use Google+wikipedia to argue.
Wilson was the first progressive president.
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>>613734
>Oy vey goyim don't forget the 6000 quadillion
>>>/leftypol/
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>>613674
True spreading cummunism to the world was Trotsky's goal who Stalin had killed.
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>>613751
>attempting communism in a scarce society
THE ABSOLUTE MAD MAN
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>>613740
Your no true scotsmanning is adorable
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>>612205
>conservative
>revolutionary

Nice oxymoron.
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>>613479
>Milo Yannopoulos
>le gays can't be conservative meme
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>>613757
It's not a no true scotsman.
I am explicitly saying he isn't a progressive, not that he didn't do a few things that progressives are trying to inhert.
He was an imperialist, a man who created reserves for hunting, and imposed regional force upon other countries that were unwilling.
All very non-progressive things.
He never claimed himself to be a progressive, it was imposed upon him.
>>613762
Read a book.
There have only been 2 succesful conservative revolutions. In near modern times.
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>>613770
It's an oxymoron m8. Conservativism, by definition, is reactionary.

Also what the fuck is with this Evolian and Hitlerian horseshit trying to masquerade as reaction?
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>>613777
I said it was a meme image, but a reactionary revolution has happened quite a few times.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Revolutionary_movement
There is also Regan in the 1980s, a few reactionaries in the dreaded republic. And so on. *sniff*.
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>>613769
He's a contrarian who knows he can make the big bucks by doing what he does
>>613770
And it's a no true Scotsman because you want Wilson to be the only progressive so you can pin your stupid 'le ebil progressives' meme on him and the movement in general
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>>613791
Teddy was far from a progressive.
Progressives are pretty shit in general, but that's my personal opinion.
Unless imperialism, regional imposition, and establishing reserves for hunting is progressive, then he isn't progressive.
Those are the big things he did.

No true scotsman doesn't apply, and you're using a fallacy fallacy.
>>
>>613791
In that case everyone is a contrarian.
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>>613791
Elaborate on Milo.
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>>613796
>imperialism
Not progressive
>implementing federal hunting lands
Increased centralization of government authority is generally a progressive ideal, even if some disagree with the hunting. And you leave out the trust busting, which while definitely exaggerated still happened and is certainly progressive.
>>613797
>>613800
At least personally he rubs me as a money grabber. He literally wrote an article about how sucking circumcized dick is better than uncut on briebart
>>
I've read conservative estimates as low as 11 to 14 million. Some even push the under 10 benchmark but they aren't taken seriously. From my understanding, the accepted academic range has a lower limit of 18 - 21 and an upper limit of 27 - 30 million. Although I bet Mao purged more with the Great Leap Forward because they had almost four times the population of the Soviets.
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>>613825
The problem is he didn't even do that much trust busting. Taft did much more trust busting than him, and it wasn't because of public pressure.
He didn't even centralize the government that much, states were pretty much left their retained powers; he just expanded diplomacy.
He was pretty far from being a progressive.
>Milo
He makes me lol. But I don't read kikebart.
>>
>>613837
He didn't do much but he did do it, which is a progressive idea
>>
what a cute pic
>>
>>612160
>his goal was for the world to be communist

Are you fucking retarded?

Stalin was the leader who split from that very goal.
>>
>>613825
>Increased centralization of government authority is generally a progressive ideal
Far too blanket. Only true if that authority is used to promote social progress.
>>
>>613871
>does one progressive thing
>OH MAH GOD SO PROGRESSIVE CLAPPU CLAPPU FIRST PROGRESSIVE PRESIDENT
>>613882
The dude was some kind of anarcho-communist.
Of course he is retarded.
>>613892
>>>613825
>>Increased centralization of government authority is generally a progressive ideal
>Far too blanket. Only true if that authority is used to promote social progress.
>social progress
>progress
Ah, and now we enter the singularity and irony of the entire idea of "Progressivism"
IT'S 2016 PEOPLE.
>>
>>612262
>muh anarchism works well on paper cuz every human being is inherently good
>>
>>613902
>le "it's the current year" meme
I've literally never heard someone use that unironically
>>
>>613914
I have.
But the meme is what definies the oxymoron of "progressivism"
>>
>>613902
>>does one progressive thing
>completely ignores that it was one of the major cornerstones of his domestic reputation
>>
>>613919
Elaborate
>>
>>613922
Progress towards what?
Simplistic questions.
>>613921
Imperialism and forigen policy were the corner stone of his presidency.
>>
>>613929
>progress towards what?
A better life
>imperialism and foreign policy were the cornerstone of his presidency
But not of his reputation
>>
>>613929
>Imperialism
While making propaganda against Imperialism did his own Imperialism, it was as cut off bough while sitting on it.
/excuse me for possible grammatical errors.
>>
>>613937
What defines a better life?
How does progressivism achive this?
>reputation
Reality is harsher than reputation. Taft was a better president than teddy, but a worse man.
>>613943
I don't understand anything you said....
I really dont...
>>
>>613951
>what defines a better life
To a progressive, less economic inequality, better working conditions, and more direct democracy.
>reality is harsher than reputation
I never said it wasn't
>Taft was a better president than teddy
Don't disagree there either. But you can't deny that a significant portion of teddy's voters were attracted to his 'trustbuster' image, even if it wasn't true.
>>
>>612176
Guys in positions of authority that I also don't like and are unlikely to be removed through any peaceful means.

They usually have moustaches but that isn't a requirement. I only add this because I don't like moustaches.
>>
>>613961
>To a progressive, less economic inequality, better working conditions, and more direct democracy.
None of these things insure a better life, nor do any of these things are defined as "progress". Easily can be considered whole regression.
Reactionaries certainly don't see as any of this as progress, especially your wretched "democracy".
>Don't disagree there either. But you can't deny that a significant portion of teddy's voters were attracted to his 'trustbuster' image, even if it wasn't true.
They were attracted to a strong, charismatic leader. Like we all are.
>>
>>613929
>Progress towards what?
Less preventable suffering. Yes, its inherently idealistic.
>>
>>613981
>None of these things insure a better life, nor do any of these things are defined as "progress". Easily can be considered whole regression.
Reactionaries certainly don't see as any of this as progress, especially your wretched "democracy".
And your point is? Anything can be considered anything. It's just semantics
>>
>>613983
Oh good fucking lord
>Muh suffering
Existence is the source of suffering, there is no preventing it. There is inherent hypocrisy, for all the actions you take to prevent suffering only cause more.
The best preventable action for suffering is suicide.

Go do it, faggot. Off yourself, prevent your suffering.
>>613986
Semantics are important, that's how we know what we are talking about.
Progressivism is circular reasoning.
>>
>>613991
I'm far from a progressive.

Perhaps you should kill yourself if your reading comprehension is so poor.
>>
>>613991
>progressivism is circular reasoning
You haven't demonstrated this yet
>>
>>614004
Because as you said, it's Semantics.
>progress
>towards what
>these specific set of relativistic values
>but that isn't progress towards this persons values, or this persons, or this persons etc.
>but it's progress
>>613998
No, suffering fags are my trigger (^:
>>
>>614008
You can do that with any political philosophy. You're just being massively autistic at this point
>I'm a conservative
>what do you try to conserve
>the king's divine right to rule above all
>well that's not conservative to the aristocrats who are trying to conserve their noble rights
>but it's still conservative
>>
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>>613335
Uhm. Modern world? It's not like 20th century hasn't been shaped by Marxism.


>>613496
> because that's the only place they can survive.
ORLY
>>
>>614113
>Soviet Union doesn't exist today
Precisely, fucking tankie
>>
>>612160
27% of the world landmass (including Antarctica) being Communist seems like a pretty good score for me senpai.
>>
>>614113
The USSR collapsed under its own stupidity and the successor states were so economically stunted they're behind the west even 25 years later. If that's not failure then I don't know.
>>
>>614147
Too bad it failed horribly and caused the deaths of millions
>>
Stalin only killed around 5 people. However, during his reign, over a hundred were ressurected.
>>
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>>614113
>China belongs to the "Empire"
>>
>>614176
>I-it's the ussr's fault!
>even though it's been 25 years we just can't escape it!
>even though the Baltic countries have rebuilt themselves!
>>
>>614267
Baltic countries haven't really, they're still poor.
>>
>>614267
>even though the Baltic countries have rebuilt themselves!
Baltics did not rebuilt themselves.

I'm not sure if any post-Soviet republic actually returned to the level of 1990 (Belarus and Kazakhstan look somewhat promising, but I'm not sure if I can trust all the figures).

That said USSR has nothing to do with the Gorbachev and post-Soviet fuck ups.
>>
>>612187
Yeah just look at those goddamn lawmaking fascists. Fuck them and fuck their stop signs.
>>
>>614267
baltics are city states that were rebuilt via EU shekels

>>614286
lol, even now ukraine is better off than belarus or kazakhstan
>>
>>614382
> ukraine is better off than belarus
Like hell it is.

Also, I take it you never visited the countries in question.
>>
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>>614395
>>
>>614411
Will there be an argument at some point?
>>
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>>612148
>only 35 million
>million

Gash, poor fella was wrongly accused! I guess he wasn't so bad after all.
>>
Well I'd say your run of the mill uninterested person is going to think its higher than actual. But in academia people are probably at a more close to truth figure.

But again it doesn't really matter, he killed a shit-ton of people. More interesting and usable is why.


But because 4chan I must ask. You say 35 million, how did you count that? Its more than twice as high as Stalins deathtoll given in the Black Book of Communism and even that is taken with a huge grain of salt

Also haven't really read the entire thread, feel free to point me to an earlier post.
>>
>>614411
You must not understand much about the economy do you
>>
>>614505
> But again it doesn't really matter, he killed a shit-ton of people. More interesting and usable is why.
The first question is "how". Especially since we still haven't found the bodies.
>>
>>614570
Well the terror-famine of the early 1930s is one that is very well documented and currently well researched. Even though there is debate about the objectives, either vs a percived reactionary peasantry or a specific nation.
However most people I know who looked at it would probably go with the former.

Quite a few people where executed in different campaigns, again provable in more ways than simply pointing at 80 year old graves. (Orders, journals etc)

Estimations of people dying in different forced relocation policies and the numbers of people dying in the ITL and other similar systems is quite well researched by now. Even though it has yet to pierce the "masses" as it were.
(And yes differentiating "anti-soviet crimes" from other crimes in the ITL figures is a masters thesis all in its own)
>>
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>>614597
> terror-famine of the early 1930s
> terror-famine
>>
>>614639
Well I mean there is plenty of documentation showing us that Stalin knew about it but he blamed it on the peasants destroying crops and cattle and, paraphrasing now, "if they wanted to use famine as a weapons against us we will turn their weapons upon themselves"

There are more stuff documented but overall we see the following: the Soviet regime knew about the famine and did nothing to stop it or enacted policies that worsened them. And they wanted to subdue the peasantry.

Its really not that hard. Terror is what the soviets under Stalin did. Remember in the nurture vs nature the Soviets was fiercly nurture people. By coercion (terror being one way) and by removing what made people a certain way (cultures, intellectuals, tribal groupings, ethnicity, socio-economic states) they would bring forth a the new "Soviet man" or "Homo Sovieticus" if you want.


The original cause of the famine might not have been by the Soviet regime but they sure as hell made sure it was prolonged and that it got as bad as it did.
>>
>>612230
he looks like a fat ringo starr
>>
>>614695
>Well I mean there is plenty of documentation showing us that Stalin knew about it
Yes. Like the Politbureau minute where they order adequate food relief be supplied.

>the Soviet regime knew about the famine and did nothing to stop it or enacted policies that worsened them.
Read post archival work in the journals you cretin.
>>
>>615496
>expecting people on 4Chan to use facts or even accept Stalin was a competent leader
>expecting them to accept the USSR was a collective leadership and the Politburo wasnt even homogeneous and Stalin wasn't le meme in charge here dictator
>expecting them.to not accept the false muh 10 gorillion anti Ukrainian starvation murders

You're either new here or just grew very thick skin posting on /leftypol/

Either way I actually salute you this battle won't be won any time soon no matter how much the weight of history (including muh evil Soviet archives that actually show the USSR was much more benevolent than the Robert Service "history" school espouses) is on Lenin's and Stalin's side.
>>
>>615561
I detest Lenin and Stalin for their enslavement of the Russian revolutionary proletariat. But more than that I detest falsification in history.
>>
>>615596
>for their enslavement
Haha
It's ok my friend
Read enough history and you'll eventually be converted from the anarchobabby/Trotskyite lies

It starts with realizing the muh body count arguments are dumb, and ends with understanding they were great leaders with poor situations who did as best as they could

Kruschev truly and always a shit
>>
>>615596
Oh and an FYI: I used to be a lot like you. As I said, the more you read and understand, the more detestable the lies become.
>>
>>615660
>Read enough history and you'll eventually be converted from the anarchobabby/Trotskyite lies

There were old bolsheviks are Kronstadt friend: it was an all party workers soviet.

>they were great leaders with poor situations who did as best as they could
I didn't dispute that my probably Maoist friend. But they were not of my class, nor did they support my class, and whenever they could they restored or produced alienated wage labour.
>>
>>612176
>The Ukrainians.

They always been shit on by the Soviets, even when they were part of the Union and was the only state that made tanks before the Third Plan.
And you were surprised when they welcomed the Germans.
>>
>>615991
>Define Fascist
>The Ukrainians

I'm pretty sure that some of the Ukrainian anti-Soviet resistance were simple "thieves," Jewish nationalists, anti-Bolshevik revolutionaries.

But yeah, the majority were fascists.
>>
>>616013
>But yeah, the majority were fascists.

That was because only the Soviets called them fascists and this epoch of history does not simply disappear after 80 years.
>>
>>616495
No, it is because the Germans reluctantly authorised a White army which was more modernising than reactionary, thus meeting the technical definition of fascism.
>>
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>>612160
>everything I don't like is fascist
>even liberal globalist capitalism is fascist
>>
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>>614695
> there is plenty of documentation showing us that Stalin knew about it
Which documentation would that be? All the stuff i've seen has been about how the Stalin (and Party as a whole) had been completely blindsided by the events and made everything they've could to prevent it or reduce the severity, at the very least.

Is this yet another revelation of the Cold War historiography, or even Goebbels research?

> There are more stuff documented
Sauce it.

> sure as hell made sure it was prolonged and that it got as bad as it did.
By stopping grain exports, by spending all the emergency funds on buying Persian grain, by rationing the regions not hit by the famine to send food to the famine-stricken regions?

The horrors of communism.
>>
>>612384
lol more than that during the mass exocutions alone desu familia
>>
>>613479
>The Civil Rights bill was written by Republicans

>Republicans had their first black leader in 1886, Democrats had theirs in 1960.

>People still think Democrats had anything to do with the civil rights movement despite Democrats not allowing blacks into the Democratic Party conventions until 1958
>>
>>612148
I had a argument with a facebook page by the Name of Comrade Ushanka. This guy is so delusional he thinks Hitler Killed more then Stalin
>>
>>612148
>35,000,000

This is a made-up number.

>>612675
>>612713
This is correct.

I always get surprised that people need to invent an even bigger death toll for stalin. I mean, I get surprised that they invent shit in the first place instead of sticking to the facts. Then I get surpised how killing 650,000 people for political power is not considered "enough".

People have a weird perception of death tolls. Those are not "number", but individual fate that have been snuffed out. I hope you people learn some humanity some day.
>>
>>612255
Name on anarchist state.
>>
>>618352
>TheHolodomor(Ukrainian:Гoлoдoмóp, "Extermination by hunger" or "Hunger-extermination";[2]derived from мopити гoлoдoм, "to kill by starvation")[3][4][5]was a man-madefaminein theUkrainian Soviet Socialist Republicin 1932 and 1933 that killed an estimated 2.5–7.5 million Ukrainians.

LOWEST.
ESTIMATE
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