How did he manage to justify the holocaust to the German people?

>>568329
He didn't justify it. He just started it and everyone was either too pre-occupied with the war or too scares to stand up against it.

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didnt happen m8

The German public didn't know it was happening, you idiot.

He was already dead before it was a thing.

>>568329
He didn't really justify it to anyone. There's still a huge debate around whether he always intended to carry out the holocaust or if it just happened as a result of the circumstances. I think many historians today actually argue the latter.

I tend to agree with the functionalist idea. I think that at first lower level commanders just started shooting Jews and shit as a way to not have to deal with the hassle. It was probably heavily implied to them as well that they could always just shoot them if they didn't want to go through the trouble of sending them to camps. This happened a lot during WWII anyway in regards to potential PoW's. In 1941 I'm sure they probably realized where things were heading so decides to acknowledge what they were going to do and then carried it out.

Also, hitler had 12 years to start killing Jews. Why didn't he start officially doing it until 8 years in?

>>568329
He never told the people "hey we're killing them now." In fact, the execution camps had to be outside of Germany by law

>>568414
>He never told the people "hey we're killing them now." In fact, the execution camps had to be outside of Germany by law

Source on that law mandating executions outside of Germany?

Because of muh national currency.

>>569589
I think he's talking about the Vernichtungslager

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>>568329
He didn't need to try to justify it--the German people who did know about it did their best to convince themselves otherwise.

>>568329
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE

Watch this, it's an fairly old video which uses archival documents and primary sources and accounts to discuss the feasibility of the holocaust story as it is often presented.

It will not necessarily convince you that the holocaust did or did not occur, but is interesting nonetheless. It is quite long, but is a decent time sink.

>>568329
It only happened after the war was over, by then he was too dead to justify it.

>>568329
Perhaps it is time to consider wheter did it happen or not m8

>>569909
>Look at all these people that died as a result of our bombing campaign
>It's your fault!

>>569952
>>>/pol/

Nazi Germany was a totalitarian dictatorship. Hitler didn't need to justify anything.

>>569909
Those gas victims look awfully emaciated. It's almost like they didn't die from gas or something. Or maybe it was that special type of gas that eats away body fat?

>>569882
Show me the order please. There have been no proven records showing any. The ones that were shown at Nuremberg were proven forgeries—not by /pol/ users on the internet, either.

So essentially you have no order and have to rely on the Soviet's word. You are expected to believe that in the middle of one of the most intense wars in all of history the Germans took the time and resources to systematically exterminate civilians. Hell, if we are just going to take the Soviet's word for it, why aren't Jew lampshades and soap still a thing?

Also, why won't they let scientists test the soil if they don't have something to hide? Why would it be an "insult" to verify the"most horrid atrocity in human history."

>>569960
touched a nerve there friendo?

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Their neutralization was perceived to be in the interest of the German nation and its polity.

>If they exist = bad/worse
>If they don't exist = good/better

You can go about this many ways and outright extermination is one of them. I personally think that violence is inversely the least effective method all things considered, but the Nazis were all about getting things done and not submitting to any slavish sensibilities especially not from the outside.

Can you really not identify this sentiment within you, western men?

>>569976
No. You're just the most despised people in the western world.

>>569972
Would you please just fuck off back to your containment board? Nobody here gives a shit about your batshit theories.

>>569980
Should just sent them all to Madagascar.

>>569981
Yup thats me. A straight, white, christian male who dares have his own opinion. Deal with it

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>>569990
>Asked for evidence
>AAAARRRCHHH STOP OPPRESSING ME GO BACK TO EBIL PAWL AAAHHHH

Nice echochamber you got here.

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>>570011
now "straight, white, christian male who dares have his own opinion." have officially joined the oppression olympics.
>fucking grow up

>>569981
>questions history
>is hated worse than ted bundy, charles manson, and the zodiak killer put together

Reasonable.

>>570042
Your grandfather (maybe your great-grandfather, you seem a bit edgy) was a humble man. He went to school and worked a part time job. He didn't know about geopolitics. He didn't care about the Sudetenland, but he believed that it was wrong to kill innocents.

So when his nation was attacked and dragged into the century's madness, he quit his job, he left his girl to be fucked by jody, and he left his mother crying and got on a bus to the other side of a continent, where he was beaten and drilled and dieted until he was ready to kill. He'd never shot a man before but inside of 3 months he was on a beach doing just that. He watched his friends old and new die in common, utterly understandable, and completely brutal ways. He lived through the sort of Hell that only man can make. He may have seen the extermination camps, but most of those were on the eastern front - left for the Stalinists to take over.

Your flesh and blood went through hell. He spent the rest of his life having nightmares of ruined cities and German bayonets. He could never bring himself to confess he where he learned the phrase, "food prostitution," nor how often he paid so little. After all, most casualties were caused by starvation. He carried the shame and the regret and the nightmares with him his whole life.

But he never regretted it. He accepted the butcher's bill because he knew Nazism -blind hate, genocide, fascism- he knew these things would cover the world and destroy all good. He could smile whenever he saw his children growing up safe and free, with minds and morals unclouded by hate, with bellies fat with prosperity.

And here you are. And here you are, with a mind so atrophied you can't form a coherent thought, but you bitterly ape a dead man's hate to make yourself feel better about how your aspirations go another year, uncompleted and your dreams grow dimmer. Grandpa paid a dear price for the life you wasted.

>>570040
Watch out. We might use our "white privilege" to get the gold.

>>570027
There have literally been hundreds of thereds here, on /pol/, on /new/, and on stormfront proving you wrong again and again. There is a wealth of resources available online and in print that blow you the fuck out in terms of evidence.

Every time you get proven wrong, you wait until the thread dies, then you make the exact same fucking thread and make the same, old, tired arguments, and when people tell you to fuck off, you cry about echochambers.

You are the least liked group of people on a website inhabited by nothing but social rejects. Take your incessant, autistic shit posting back to /pol/ where you belong.

>>570053
>He knows exactly what went through my grandfather's head at the time

Are you a wizard?

>>570053
nice copypasta.

My JEWISH great-grandfather wasn't a dumb-ass, he left Germany in the 30s.

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>>570073
>There have literally been hundreds of thereds here, on /pol/, on /new/, and on stormfront proving you wrong again and again.

But i thought /pol/ and stormfront were nazi echo chambers where everyone blindly denies the holocaust.

>There is a wealth of resources available online and in print that blow you the fuck out in terms of evidence.

Yet you arent able to provide evidence for your statement and get extremely butthurt when asked to

>>570095
Different anon, but check this thread


https://archive.is/TZ1Sz

>>570073
>There is a wealth of resources available online and in print that blow you the fuck out in terms of evidence.

This is one of those things said but never meant. It isn't an argument; it is a tool to avoid one. It's much easier to say you've won an argument than actually having to win it.

Your entire argument is an appeal to authority with a veneer of respectability to cover up that underlying fact. There are no historical events that don't have raging debates. Whenever someone picks one that has present political implications the rules of fair debate are undermined. If we were discussing ancient history, none of this would be an issue.

>>570125
>It isn't an argument; it is a tool to avoid one

So is asking the same question over and over again, getting proven wrong, and then just repeatedly doing it until you find somebody that doesn't respond to your bullshit.

>>568373

>Also, hitler had 12 years to start killing Jews. Why didn't he start officially doing it until 8 years in?


This is pretty easy to answer, in Hitlers and in most high ranked Nazis minds the declaration of war by France and Great Britain was a declaration by of war by the Jews against the new German Reich and it's expansionist ambitions, while also seen as the Jews "exposing" themselves for taking revenge against the pogroms.

Hitler explicitly says this in his testament.

>>570125
It has nothing to due with the debate. It has to do with stormfucks raping this website with the same shit threads, same shit memes that stopped being funny in 2008, and more shitposting than the feelfags.

Didn't Hitler have a quote about the Jews who would lose an argument, then come back the next day and deny it happened or something?

Even if I took the time to prove you wrong, you would just stop posting and make the same thread tomorrow.

>>568373
>Also, hitler had 12 years to start killing Jews. Why didn't he start officially doing it until 8 years in?
War is a great cover for genocide.

The 8 years of sanctions, antesemitic riots and decrees served to condition Germany to accept more violent rhetoric later. Most Nazis, while antisemitic, were not yet of the "go out and shoot the first Jew you see" mode.

While they weren't being put in cattle cars or made to dig mass graves in the woods just yet, it was not exactly a livable existence for German Jews. This period (33-39) led to thousands of German Jews to emigrate - part of Hitler's goal to make Germany "Judenrein". . When he started WW2 the Holocaust spread to the rest of Europes' Jews - including areas where German Jews had earlier sought safety.

The thing is, what happened to the German Jews is small beans compared to the actions taken against the Jewish population of Poland and Russia. We can debate endlessly over why Hitler waited 8 years to start killing, but it is very evident based on the focus of the deathcamps and ghettos in the Pale of Settlement that the Nazi's wanted to make the biggest net impact on European Jewry - and invading Poland and the USSR achieved exactly this.

>>570141
>getting proven wrong

Funny. I don't think that has happened before. You have absolutely no hard evidence. You have no legal orders; you have no scientific proof gathered from the "death" sites; you have no sources that don't come back to something unverifiable at some point (talk about an echo-chamber).

I'm not saying this, either, which is the funny part. You are the one saying that I have been proven wrong. It should be very easy to go get that information and post it then, correct? Post a source showing the document where Hitler ordered exterminations. Post a source referencing the Holocaust at all that isn't derived from either Soviet or Jewish sources. (These are de facto the same thing; look below.) So, in essence, you are just taking the Jew's word for it.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/ish.htm

>There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews.

—Winston Churchill

Original Source:

https://archive.org/details/ZionismVsBolshevismByWinstonChurchill

>>569980

>You can go about this many ways and outright extermination is one of them. I personally think that violence is inversely the least effective method all things considered, but the Nazis were all about getting things done and not submitting to any slavish sensibilities especially not from the outside.

/thread

Seriously more people need to read Carl Schmitt, to have an "Enemy" you don't even need to make him ugly or evil, you just need to present him as an economic competitor. In the case of the Nazis several attempts were made to present the Jews as both ugly, evil, selfish and lewd but this was beside the point. It was evident from the outlook of the racist Social and Biological Darwinist philosophical outlook of the Nazis that the Jews had to be "taken out" because they were Jews, that is, the biological "opposite" of the gentile Aryan.

There are many elements that hint to this, for one Himmler when he was petitioned by many Germans that they knew "a good Jew", he answered that if everybody knew a good Jew, then all of the Jews would be allowed to walk freely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBaz5yn0b7A

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>>569917
>the holocaust story
I hate it when people say it like this. It isn't a discrete event like a story, it was a series of events building up to planned/unplanned actions that ended up killing millions in a war that already was killing millions in brutal warfare. Whats so hard to believe - that the Nazis hated Jews very much and in wartime, took large scale actions to "remove" them in the lands they occupied? Thats the story, not this "Muh 6 gorrilion died in one death camp!!1! meme you shits keep spouting.

If you want to "debate" the holocaust, I want someone to disprove the notion that the Nazi party was not rooted in deep antisemitism from its inception in the 1920s. I want someone to prove that the pogroms of the 19th century were all Jewish lies and that the Ukrainian and Lithuanian auxiliaries who eagerly joined in the killing were just "Zionist Patsies". You'd be insane to attempt to disprove the deep seated antisemitism that built up to this.

If you want to prove the Jews made the holocaust to demonize Fascism, prove that the Nazi's were not antisemitic and therefore incapable of having the momentum to conduct the Holocaust.

I am a functionalist up until someone wants to try to deny that european antisemitism is incapable of being violent. Europe has enough blood to make the intentionalist argument not sound at all bitter and overreacting.

>Pic related, good old fashioned European antisemitism by someone other than your meme Nazi and "doctored" photographic evidence.

>>568414
Wasn't Dachau in fucking Bayern?

>>570284
Calm down, autist, I didn't mean for it to be a loaded phrase.

>>570306
KZ Dachau was a camp prototype, it was first used for the imprisonment of political enemies and then later reused for jews, gypsie, homosexuals, etc
Also anon's talking about the extermination camps in Poland
t. Dachauer

>>570284
I thought that picture was of people brutalizing a French woman that collaborated with the Nazis.

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What would the Jews gain by destroying all of their most stable, centuries old communities in all of Europe? Especially when it literally destroyed the heritage that defined the cultural heart of Judaism?
This narrative by deniers is pure victim blaming. Even if some jews were inspired by Zionism and Israel was a direct consequence of the Holocaust, its pretty fucking far out there to suggest nothing happened at all between the years 1933-1945. If "jewish" and "victor" evidence doesn't do it to pin Nazi involvement, explain what happened to Jewish European society that caused it to disappear so suddenly.

>>570214
Are you that idiotic and delusional that you forgot Stalin was in power and had purged most Jews from the leadership before WWII even started?

>>570053
Muh greatest generation.

>>570349
>tfw in 30 years people will have mislabled all relevant WW2/Holocaust pics to have a completely fucked up narrative.

Nope, its from the Lviv Pogrom in July 1941

There is some controversy over who started it, but its no secret (to Jews at least who have been targets for centuries before) that the Ukrainians eagerly did it on their own volition.

My point was that the intentionalist side need not look only at German society to find examples of violent antisemitism. Ukies were especially brutal.

>>570374
Don't forget that Stalin later was planning on doing his own Holocaust in the 1950's but died before it could come to fruition.

>inb4 Stalin's own plans to remove bagel was a Jewish conspiracy to demonize Communism by the same Soviet Jews which faked Auschwitz to demonize Fascism

>>570399
He also denied that any Soviet Jews were persecuted during the Holocaust, this proves he knew the Holocaust was a just fabrication meant to smear Nazi Germany's good name!

>>570374
>Are you that idiotic and delusional that you forgot Stalin was in power and had purged most Jews from the leadership before WWII even started?

Only the ones who he had personal issues with. The Soviet Union was still a de facto Jewish government, with Stalin basically being a puppet (he didn't have the intellect to understand geopolitics, anyhow; he was more of a pragmatic gangster type). There was no persecution of Jews in Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution. A very large percentage of KGB officers were Jewish, not to mention the Cheka prior to it, which wouldn't have been the case if they were really being oppressed.

The Jews never lost control of Russia, realistically. As soon as the Soviet Union fell in '91, the infrastructure was already in place for the "oligarchs" to take over. The oligarchs were obviously mostly Jewish.

Soviet persecution of Jews is an outright lie. There was no such thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrikh_Yagoda

Check this guy out.

>>570441
>Only the ones who he had personal issues with
Stalin had "personal issues" with several millions of people.

>The Soviet Union was still a de facto Jewish government
Less than 5% of the Soviet leaders were Jewish by 1940, most of them were people that Stalin couldn't afford to liquidate yet. He was going full Hitler during the 1950s already, which is also pretty relevant when you want to want to accuse the man of rewriting history.

>There was no persecution of Jews in Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution.
Holy shit, read a book.

>>570441
>check this guy out
"Like many Soviet secret policemen of the 1930s, Yagoda himself was ultimately a victim of the Purge. He was demoted from the directorship of the NKVD in favor of Nikolai Yezhov in 1936, and arrested in 1937. Charged with the crimes of wrecking, espionage, Trotskyism and conspiracy, Yagoda was a defendant at the Trial of the Twenty-One, the last of the major Soviet show trials of the 1930s. Following his confession at the trial, Yagoda was found guilty and shot."

Yeah, okay.

>>568329
Hitler! xD

>>570484
i <3 Hitler.. too bad we'll never get married and kill all the jews. O, well... back to work :D

>>570053
WE WUZ BOYS

>>570461
>Holy shit, read a book.

By one of the mainstream authors? or by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn? I don't think I need to read your books.

>Less than 5% of the Soviet leaders were Jewish by 1940, most of them were people that Stalin couldn't afford to liquidate yet.

Even if that's true—which I doubt—that's still an over representation. It's bad when 5% is an achievement because you were previously at 75%. The real question is, why were Jews ever 75% of a revolution in Russia? They never saw themselves as Russian citizens, they were confined to the Pale of Settlement, etc. Why were people who were in no way Russian, and in fact hated them, 75% of the party usurping the czar? Can you answer me that? or is that too much?

The whole thing is just hard to believe. Evidence aside, it's cartoon villain tier. Also Hitler seems to have been a nice man (from reading others accounts, and mein kampf but I understand that's propaganda) who loved his country and it's hard to believe he would order genocide. Mass deportation I can see happening, he saw Jews as foreigners, but why kill them? Wouldnt it be cheaper and less shady and difficult to just deport them, as was originally planned?

The holocaust was never a big thing in my country and people don't care about it either way here so I am not biased and Im not a neo-nazi either. It all just seems fishy to me.

>>570866
t. ignorance

>>569972
Lad, the fact that they have clothes on and aren't ash shows that they weren't gas victims. Even if you don't belive in the offical facts what you're saying isn't even consistent to what you're trying to disprove

>>570011
>wow I am so brave because a I am a contrarian for the sake of feeling special
Don't worry, we all grow out of puberty eventually

the german public didn't know it was happening (because it wasn't)

the german public knew about ghetooization and deportations to the east but you have to understand europe was in a state of war and everyone hated the kikes already

there was bigger shit to worry about

Just the fact that you're not allowed to question this stuff should be a huge red flag to anyone with a working brain.

Any objective analysis of what happened leads to the conclusion that there was no organized policy of genocide, merely isolated massacres, pogroms and such, and the establishment of concentration camps which was also done in Allied countries. The only difference there was nobody was able to turn the USA into an inferno and destroy the logistics, so no japs died.

The people that died in the concentration camps mostly died of disease and starvation, and neither was this intentional, but a circumstance of Germany being basically helpless in the latter stages of the war with the Allied bombing campaign bringing the country to a standstill.

Zyklon B is probably the worst possible choice if you wanted a convenient way to kill large groups of people. These are Germans we're talking about.

It's probably a fact that more German civilians died of starvation and disease than did people in the camps.

>>570284
"the germans hated the jews therefore the holocaust happened"
"it was possible therefore it happened"

>If you want to "debate" the holocaust, I want someone to disprove the notion that the Nazi party was not rooted in deep antisemitism from its inception in the 1920s.

don't you realize how absurd this is? surely the question should be "if you want to debate the holocaust explain this mass of evidence that it happened"

but, then you'd actually have to show that mass of evidence.... and it simply doesn't exist.

I mean if the holocaust so obviously happened, show me the evidence. because all you have right now is around 5-10 eyewitnesses per million deaths, a bunch of appeal to emotion, and obviously fake books

there is simply no good reason to suppose that when the third reich talked about deportations to the east, that they were 'really' talking about genocide in gas/electric/co2/cyanide chambers.

>>570053
3 of my grandfathers were farmers that didn't get drafted, dipshit. Number 4 was a Nazi.

>>570979
>3 of my grandfathers were farmers that didn't get drafted, dipshit. Number 4 was a Nazi.
>3 of my grandfathers

lol wtf

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It's actually how terrifying propaganda is as a control tool. You can really control people's minds through sense. If someone just went out and showed you the number 44 throughout your day without you knowing, then later asked you to choose a number between 1-100, you would undoubtedly answer with 44.

Imagine if you were blasted with patriotic propaganda 24/7. It would twist your mind, bend your will regardless of you as a person, and change you to what they want you to be.

Mesmerism is a powerful fuckin' science, man. Don't use it recklessly.

>>570984
yeah, my bad. I meant grandparents. Even then it's poorly worded. Guess I'll just see myself out.

>>570866
You don't know much 20th century history, do you? I'd call it a tiresome unexceptional meme before calling unbelievable.

Because it wasn't intentional.

The Soviets falsified most of it to mask their own atrocities.

>>570987
That's the point, and you don't realize it. All governments rule by propaganda. Everything is dogmatic to the masses, even rational discourse. The Nazis did not have worse propaganda than we have now. That simply isn't true.

Look at the Middle East: the region has been balkanized due to our foreign policy, yet all you hear about is "humanitarian crises." Do you know how retarded that would sound if you said that about Ancient Rome? That's how retarded it actually sounds now, yet most people don't realize it. Political history doesn't change much, because humans don't change much.

Even if the Holocaust did happen (it didn't), it would still be far from a deviation in history. Nobody explicitly calls their mass murders genocide, but they are. Genocide happened many other times in the 20th century alone.

The fact that the Holocaust is still considered relevant is very telling. If it was another ethnicity (like the Armenians that the Young Turk Jews killed), it would be long forgotten. The real point of the Holocaust is Jew worship.

>>568329
A cultural anxiem such as in america democracy is good or in Sweden peace is good. In Germany a cultural anxiem was in place long before the holocaust. Antisemitism was beyond ripe in Germany. Do not fool yourself into believing the German people we're ignorant.

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>>571032
The gestapo was pretty much the modern day spanish inquisition, that shit most definitely happened. To deny it is pretty silly if you look at hebrew history. They're been bootfucked out of every place they've like the fucking templars from Assassin's Creed. There is most definitely a world wide plot to control the masses and immanentize the eschaton perpetrated by the sons and daughters of Cain.

Also, you assume way too much about the people you talk to.

>>571120
they've ever been, they're like the fucking templars*

>>571032
God your simple.. The holocaust didn't happen? ... Overwhelming evidence such as pictures records accounts... And not to mention the FUCKING BUILDINGS AND FENCES ARE STILL UP. ? GOD YOUR RETARDED

>>571145
>Overwhelming evidence such as pictures records accounts

I'm going to be waiting a while aren't I?

>>571145
You should really get better at 4chan.

Here's how people on 4chan form opinions.

>a lot of people this thing
>I'll say that thing isn't true to make them angry
>le ebin trole
>newfags take the trolls seriously and end up with the edgiest, most contrarian belief system they can find
>people like you argue with them

>>57115471148
Google it ? And oh I noticed no comment on the buildings still being there ? Can't explain?... I mean GOD I hate you edgy neckbeards who try to always go with some special notion you think differently than everyone else and your smarter than everyone you have the answers. Lol no your just too edgemaster for your own good. Seriously Google the holocaust lol.you tard. Not a oldfag 9 year veteran. I thought his/ was not full of autists

>>568329
he didn't gas anyone

>>568329
> I know they were already antisemetic
>>>/pol/

Take your poorly informed, barely coherent thoughts elsewhere

>>568329
Much like boiling a frog it was gradual, first it started with art and writing get rid of dissent in soft form with the burning of art and books, then they started locking up the mentally handicapped in aslyeums and also the "degenerate" elements then they moved them to far away facilities and killed them with carbon monoxide, then would then send out form letters explaining that the patient had died from complications during treatment. Next ghettos were established and undesirables were marked and moved there then political prisoners were moved to prison camps, and all of this was done within the existing German legal system . so no one thought anything of it , oh there just looking up violent anrichists and communists is what the people thought at first. Then they moved the Jews to the camps and suppressed the information about it . then the killing started on the industrial scale that only the Germans could build. It's disgusting really. But so very elligant in its execution .

>>569972
The only person its ok to kill is the nazi. Tell me were you live so I can do my duty as a proud American patriot and scalp you nazi lover .

>>571242
>proud American patriot

I'm afraid the Jews have banned that. Maybe you can burger, porn, and illegally immigrate me to death instead.

but seriously, out of millions of germans not a single one knew their political party was killing jews for fun?

not one did anything about it? at least spread the word? "hey you know uncle shekels? he didn't go on a holiday after all..."

this says more about germans than anyone, really

>>571230

ok i understand it, but take portugal as an example. there was a political dictatorship under the catholic ring wing of salazar, and communism was the "big evil". even then, thousands of resistance movements and huge crowds of people were spreading the word about the awful things happening

why the fuck there wasn't anyone aware in germany? the country of goethe. a fucking resistance movement against the killing of six fucking million human beings, i dont know.

>>571272
*right wing

>>570217
>Seriously more people need to read Carl Schmitt, to have an "Enemy" you don't even need to make him ugly or evil, you just need to present him as an economic competitor.
You need to read Schmitt, actually, because the enemy need not be an economic competitor, actually.

>>568329
>How did he manage to justify the holocaust to the German people?
He called it Science
Seriously, that's how you can justify anything in a post Le-Enlightenment world

>>568329
Its kinda like Obama using Drones on Pakistani muslims.

We kinda know something about it maybe happening but don't really care or even know if its real.

>>568351
what about all their jew neighbours suddenly vanishing? or the soldiers that clearly saw what was going on on their way to the eastern front? Or the ones that were just stationed in Poland?

>>570603
the answer to that lies with eastern society

feudal system was in place for long for multiple reasons where intellectual work was looked down
being a lawyer or a tradesman was a lowly job for a noble, everyone wanted land

but as society, governments and economy moved more and more away from agricultural feudal systems where land meant wealth and power someone had to become doctors, lawyers, pub owner, tradesmen etc.

naturally jews was locked out of feudal system so they took this position in modernizing society

their education and experience with arrogant old fashioned social elements they became more prone to ideas promising change, communism was one of this ideas

while in the west the nobility and the freed peasants launched themselfs into the world of business, that was not in the case in eastern yurop

>>568329
1) The holocaust didn't happen
2) Even if you buy the politically correct version of the Holocaust story it goes that it was a top secret project mentioned only in codewords, and there is no actual document or speech tying Hitler to jewish extermination order or document. So people in Germany couldn't have known anything about it

so nobody actually answers OP?

first theres a gutted, collapsing country that is germany during weimar era
high unemployment, violence on the streets daily when right and left wing activists clash

a massive change from glorious empire to a struggling republic

in comes the man who tells you its not your fault, its the jews fault, ppl dont like to take responsibility for their own actions, so it becomes popular (not that popular to seize power by legal means though)

so now you have an enemy
you want to remove this enemy (and unsuprisingly take their wealth for your young regime)
to do this you need to dehumanize the enemy,
so you invent the ideology how this group of ppl are dangerous to your well being, to your "blood"

once this is established and you already imprisoned every other political opponent who could say "hang on a minute adolf you are talking bullshit" you have everything set up for the grand removal which wasnt planned like it happened

holocaust isnt the only genocide in modern history, this recipe works to this day sadly

>>572035
go back to pol and kill yourself after watching your relatives die in cancer one after another

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>>571210
You actually have no idea what you're talking about.

What drove Germans over the edge on Jews was the international boycott on Jewish goods that's barely mentioned anywhere. Germany was living off exports and Jews worldwide used all their influence to destroy Germany economically.The German jews knew this would lead to anti-semitism and were against this , but international jews didn't care. Germany was a country coming out of two hyper inflations and economic crisis that was still fresh in their minds. The anti-semitism was understandable and natural

>>572044
Hi ___berg

>>572035
How was it top secret when a lot of the concentration camps were in the middle of populated cities, next to railroads and transit centers? The camps were separated from the world only by barbed wire .

>>572045
The economic crisis argument is totally understandable. But I can't figure out where did you find "international jews."

>a lot of Communists were Jews therefore the Holocaust didn't happen
>the Allies bombed Dresden therefore the Holocaust didn't happen
>people are using the Holocaust for economical and political gain, therefore the Holocaust didn't happen

It seems to me that stormfriends want justification more than they want denial.

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>100 posts and still no one has mentioned it

GERMAN REVOLUTION OF 1918

Jews are notorious liars, cheats, and globalists. Hitler exposed this. He wanted to kick them out of his nation like 100+ nations and regions have done before him (that's an actual historical fact, run a search on how many Jewish exoduses there were. If 100+ different groups of people don't like you ...maybe it's you... ouch)

Marxism, being a globalist ideology at its core, was quickly adopted by many Jews. They agitated a Marxist revolution during the interwar period. One that is conveniently left out of most history books. They established themselves as an enemy of Germany, and they weren't the only group to be labelled as such... They just ended up the most powerful and that's why you mainly hear of what happened to them. You don't hear much about the Irish genocide, the Armenian genocide, the Ukrainian genocide... Likely because those people don't run your media outlets, politics, and world banks...

>>572104
The holocaust may have happened, but 6,000,000 didn't die. No where near that. The reason they chose the number 6,000,000 is because there was a Jewish prophesy saying 6,000,000 jews would perish before Israel would rise again. You know how "prophesies" go I'm sure, its what we call a conspiracy theory now. The Jews were always looking for this event to occur, the swift death of 6,000,000 Jews, so when an event like this occurred they were quick to associate that number with it. Problem is they had already said precisely 6,000,000 Jews were endangered about 10 times before that in Jewish owned media outlets. There are a few historical articles in the new york times among other newspapers stating this 6,000,000 figure, all predating the holocaust. I'll try to dig the proof video up but you know how evidence against their narrative goes, its probably been deleted.

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>>572122

Not so fast.

>>570053
Nah
My Grandfather was in the SS
The other was a farmer

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>>572124
The prophecy thing is actually real tho, I found two jewish talmudic schollars refferencing it and I wasn't even looking.

First one is pic related.


Second one is this guy

>In 2006, Friedman participated in the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, with his position that "I am not a denier of the Holocaust, but I think it is legitimate to cast doubt on some statistics."[2] He says that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II; and that the actual figure is closer to one million deaths.[3] His children were expelled from the Talmud Torah school they were attending in Austria, where the family lived.[4]

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>>572129
forgot link on friedman, it's wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Friedman

>>572122
JIDF pls don't mass report

https://youtu.be/VEJ_7vJIuUc

They tied the 6,000,000 figure to the holocaust to use it as justification to establish their new nation of Israel, so they could be like "see our prophesy was right now gibs land!!!" The actual original estimated figure by the Red Cross is around 270,000 deaths total, not just Jews.

I'm not trying to be antisemitic/anti-Israel or whatever, not that I care about PC crap, but I want people to actually see facts and evidence before accepting something as history. There are a TON of things regarding the holocaust that are embellished or completely bogus, yet accepted as fact by so many.

>>572122
you are retarded
off yourself immediately

>proof
>video

as far as pol goes, ebin jewtube video

are young ppl this retarded today? if i make a video about cows being their ancestors and make up enough bullshit, will they believe me and start marrying cows or what

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>>572134

So how did all those millions of Jews disappear from Europe?

I suppose he phased it in as unlikely as it sounds. At first the nazis were not as blatantly anti semitic with their policies as Hitler, even after he had largely consolidated his power, was afraid that the Germans would not react well to it. If I remember rightly he introduced laws restricting Jews first like making them wear something to identify them as Jewish, banning them from certain jobs and then banning Jews from education etc I think the turning point was Kristallnacht which was orchestrated by Hitler across the country to see whether his soldiers smashing shops and attacking Jews would spur others to do the same. When this succeeded and there was no public outcry, Hitler became more confident and direct in his anti semitism which culminated in the final solution.

>>572040
>holocaust isnt the only genocide in modern history, this recipe works to this day sadly
And technically the Holocaust were several different genocides happening at the same times. Executed by different people, using different techniques and killing different ethnicities.

>>572045
http://www.h-ref.de/feindbilder/juedische-kriegserklaerungen/daily-express-weckert.php

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>>572165
Israel, Russia and America.

Given how much propaganda there was and still there is about the thing, statistical manipulation is the least painful thing you can do, we see statistical manipulation every day.

Also Israel also banned Yiddish culture and spoken language in the public, so it raises an eyebrow if they were trying to cover up something, there were definately a lot of European jews in Israel at the time

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>>572190
And Germany (where they got the best houses and political positions)

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>>572190
>Also Israel also banned Yiddish culture and spoken language in the public, so it raises an eyebrow if they were trying to cover up something, there were definately a lot of European jews in Israel at the time
What? I was in Isreal and spoke Jiddish and there are movie from Israel from every decade in which people speak it.

>>572190
>In religious circles, it is the Ashkenazi Haredi Jews, particularly the Hasidic Jews and the Lithuanian yeshiva world (see Lithuanian Jews), who continue to teach, speak and use Yiddish, making it a language used regularly by hundreds of thousands of Haredi Jews today. The largest of these centers are in Bnei Brak and Jerusalem.
>Israel also banned Yiddish
>[citation needed]

>>572195
I am talking right after the holocaust , after Israel was founded not today obviously. There were laws about Yiddish being forbidden in public life and a lot of people were forced to addopt Hebrew names instead of Yiddish names. It's not very well known information but you can find info on it if you look

>>572202
Where is your source tho?

>>572205
I don' know a fucking book I read long ago.

Search it on google, I told you, you can find info


http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Yiddish-is-alive-and-well-in-the-Hebrew-city

The founding of the State of Israel in 1948 secured Hebrew as the new Jewish lingua franca. In contrast to Yiddish, the vernacular of the Eastern European shtetl, Hebrew was the language of the tough new Jewish man and woman, the brave soldiers of the IDF, the glorious pioneers who built a new Hebrew city on the sands outside Jaffa.

Fearing that Yiddish would damage the fledgling status of Hebrew, overnight the mameloshen became an outlaw. Theater performances and newspapers in the language were banned. “Yehudi, Daber Ivrit!” (Jew, speak Hebrew!) exhorted placards carried by special “language defense” patrols.

“It was a deliberate program to belittle Yiddish,” says Mendy Cahan.

In the ensuing linguistic battle, Hebrew emerged triumphant. Yiddish was marginalized and all but disappeared from the Israeli cultural scene

>>572202

I would need a source for that.

Wikipedia writes about Yiddish being frowned upon by the Zionists, but nothing about an outright ban. Also, banning it would accomplish little if this population knew no other language.

>>572207
Oh come one it is obvious they established a lingua franca because so many Jews spoke different languages. The article speaks about a belittlement of Yiddish; not a ban.
>it raises an eyebrow if they were trying to cover up something
It really doesn't.

>>572216
Do jews have selective reading powers or somethng?

>Theater performances and newspapers in the language were banned. “Yehudi, Daber Ivrit!” (Jew, speak Hebrew!) exhorted placards carried by special “language defense” patrols.

>>572190

Given how much propaganda there was and still there is about the thing, statistical manipulation is the least painful thing you can do, we see statistical manipulation every day.

To make up 6 M fake deaths in the heart of Europe, (even during wartime), to falsify a Israel's population by several magnitudes, and make the rest of the world not notice, that would require a Stalinist-level control. Do you believe in a omnipotent Jewish world conspiracy?

>>571923
People at home (in the Altreich) rarely knew the full extent of what was going on as it was generally assumed that the Jews would be resettled somewhere to the East.

This resettlement was of course taking place but under the pretext of genocide. That's not to say the genocide was generally unknown. There were a lot of people involved in the holocaust and even simple military personnel could count 1+1. Nonetheless many chose to keep silent and ignore any red flags to calm their conscience and avoid conflict with a necessarily totalitarian state.

My grandmother until now maintains nobody knew what really was happening until after the war. But she was just an apolitical teen back then so she probably never actively occupied herself with the question.

Plus I am inclined to believe the functionalist holocaust theoreticians that maintain that the whole genocide was a symptom of the polycratic contest for the Führer's favor. So basically the actions of some party stooges and the SS snowballed out of control in an effort to please Hitler. In Nazi Germany very often one hand did not know what the other was doing. This might very well relate to the holocaust as well. I'm not trying to exculpate Hitler or the Nazi movement in general as it was their very party ideology that laid the pretext for these actions.

>>572221
This is a useless straw man argument, the deaths weren't faked they just didn't happen.

And it was literally Stalinist-level propaganda, but no one really questioned it or countered it because it was in everyone's best interest to peddle the lie. Not even the accused Nazis were allowed to question it or counter it because that's how the laws and the trials worked.

Read about the atmosphere in the post war period

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html

>to falsify a Israel's population by several magnitudes

Statistical manipulation is the easiest thing to do, again we see it every day. The holocaust is one of the main reasons or catalysts for Israels existence and it's international admition as a state , so I figure they would take some steps to ensure their reason for existence is not questioned

>>572233

>Statistical manipulation is the easiest thing to do, again we see it every day.

Show me how they halve or trisect a country's population "every day".

>The holocaust is one of the main reasons or catalysts for Israels existence and it's international admition as a state

UN resolution 181 doesn't even mention it.

The Jewish community in Palestine was already a quasi-state by the start of the war.
After 1945, the British imprisoned Holocaust survivors who wanted to go to Palestine, and turned their ships back.

>so I figure they would take some steps to ensure their reason for existence is not questioned

So, do you believe in the worldwide Jewish conspiracy?

>>572138
You aren't seeing the content being put before you because of its source, genetic fallacy. That goes for youtube and pol.

The 6mil figure has been overused before, historically. It was a common theme to claim that 6,000,000 were in danger because to do so meant this "prophesy" was true. When trying to come up with an answer to "why did they pull 6mil out of their collective Jewish asses" there's the answer, with historical proof, confirmed real newspapers. Why does it make you so angry, Moshe?

Himmler talks about having a 'fuhrer order' to deal with the jewish question in 1944. Hitler constantly mentions in speeches his hatred of the jews.

The holocaust was generally kept secret surprisingly well, there werent that many people working at the camps, and in the chaos of war and the gestapo it was quite easy to convince yourself that rumours of extermination werent true.

Equally I doubt most members of the SS deaths head batllions or einstazgruppen were going to say 'hey look, guess what weve been doing, massacaring jews'. The gestapo would be on to them.

>>572284

>it was in a newspaper, its definitely true.

Well stormfag, nazi atrocities were reported in newspapers, i guess they also definitely ha
ppened

>>572365
By the same false logic the reported 6 million number popping up in newspapers "definitely happened"

The fact that the exact number 6 million popped up so many times in obvious attempts to gain sympathy for the cause of Zionism definitely draws reason for concern. Concern that the number 6,000,000 is an outright lie, not that everything is a lie. But the fact that the number is accepted as "historical truth" draws concern as well, what else regarding the holocaust is a mistruth?

Its just a case of occams razor, either Hitler and the Nazis were genocidcal nutcases, as shown in the literature they had constantly written and had constantly given the impression of (also well documented atrocities in Russia, invasion of Poland etc.).

OR alternatively there is a massive worldwide jewish conspiracy with a plan like this.

>Oy vey the jews need a homeland in Israel
>why?, we literally control the world already.
>yes well there is a red-pilled volskich guy in Germany who wants to fight us.
>Oh, cant we just use our massive financial power to unseat him.
>No I have a better idea
>We allow him to invade pratically all of Europe.
>isnt that dangerous?.
>No because using my powers of jewish foresight Hitler wont equip his armies with decent winter equipment or attack Moscow in time.
>right
>then after he is defeated we deport the entire jewish community of eastern europe, destroying all traces of them to Israel. We then dig loads of mass graves in Russia, filling them with skeletons with bullet holes in their heads and build some concentration camps. We then fabricate an incredible amount of historical documents which somehow fool the entire world despite being obviously faked. This will definitely work and not be laughed out of history liked the Russian accusations that the Germans did the Katyn massacre as its demonstrably false.
>wouldnt it just be easier to use our massive financial power to buy up palestine?.
>No.

HMMMM I WONDER WHICH IS SIMPLER AND MORE LIKELY YOU IDIOTS.PLEASE KINDLY FUCK OFF BACK TO /POL/

>>572365

Newspapers didnt immediatly report 6 million, the amount of dead was difficult to determine and only large scale research came up with a number of around 5.4 million to 5.7 million through looking at statistics. This was later revised up slightly due to further research.

You do all realise that if you gave your ideas a fraction of the burden of proof you give the holocaust your ideas would immediatly collapse. It is all just conjecture. You know wheres the direct order form the jewish conspiracy demanding this fabrication?. Wheres the evidence of the immediate deportation of the entire Polish jewish community to Israel?. Oh wait theres none.

>>572388
It's not that the Jews specifically targeted Germany, they target any nation they go to. They get involved in banking, media outlets and academics. In Germany they were heavily involved in printing newspapers and would print anti-nationalistic, pro-marxist sentiments. That alone is reason for then to be labelled an enemy when the German lion awoke again, we don't even have to discuss how much they fucked banking.

They're still up to their age old tricks. A lot of Jews went to America and elsewhere in Europe. Look who runs the financial sectors in the West, the media outlets, the special interest lobbies. Hell their involvement in the IMF and World Bank are reason enough to argue for a globalist conspiracy. The Jewish cabal is nothing new, and not well hidden. It's rather in plain sight, what can be argued is their intentions though.

>>572218
Theater performances and newspapers were banned. Not the whole culture.
>(Jew, speak Hebrew!) exhorted placards carried by special “language defense” patrols.
So there was a campaign to get people to stop speaking Yiddish. You initially said Yiddish culture was banned which is simply false.

>>572437
You will have to try a lot harder.

What i detest is the fact that people are still talking about jews and not about others that died there, honestly russians, poles, gypsies etc. like wtf guys after 71 years still the same shit all over again.

>>572437

>Jews own a few newspapers that are left wing.

THEY ARE OUR NUMBER ONE ENEMY WE MUST KILL THEN.

>>572452
I wouldn't even have to try actually. Frankfurt School, read up.

>>572454

They do quite a bit in eastern europe and among the people that were masscred. However jews had by far the largest number of casulties.

If you were a Pole, life was awful but you were probably going to survive. If you were a jew you were probably going to die. If anything its just the sheer horror of a huge power wanting to kill you which you have no escape from that makes it so emotive.

>>572454
people do talk about them, in germany and east of germany mostly
classic "western" post-45 chauvinism really, who cares about anything eastern hurr durr

>>572470

>There are some left wing academics that arent even taken seriously in most mainstream thought.
>This is proof of a global jewish conpiracy.

If the jewish cabal exists it seems completely retarded. Im struggling to understand why Hitler managed to lose against such idiots.

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>>572452
>They're still up to their age old tricks. A lot of Jews went to America and elsewhere in Europe. Look who runs the financial sectors in the West, the media outlets, the special interest lobbies. Hell their involvement in the IMF and World Bank are reason enough to argue for a globalist conspiracy. The Jewish cabal is nothing new, and not well hidden. It's rather in plain sight, what can be argued is their intentions though.
Yeah I can see Adorno and Reckwitz writing exactly this.

>>572454
nobody questions that surprisingly
polfags only care about their jewish conscpiracy theories
dead russians dont plot for world domination
the jews! the damn jews do

>>572454
The center for Holocaust Research in German actually extended the scope of its research to include these groups a long time ago.

>>572469
>Jews use various news outlets and political groups to perpetrate several Marxist uprisings causing the death of 20,000 of your citizens

German. Revolution. Of. 1918.

They were the #1 enemy of Germans. They wanted the nation to fall to Communist totalitarianism. If you were an historical person, you'd research these things. If you researched these things, you'd be surprised how many Jewish names you'd find among the perpetrators.

>>572479
You think the Frankfurt school has nothing to do with current mainstream thought? You must not be college educated...

to the ppl believing germans dinknownuffin

>i got this comfy house, fully furnitured
>ah yea some jew lived here before
>where they gone, hm duno, they must be on holiday forever
>these rumours about killings
>and that picture that ss bragged about
>ill just wont think about it
>i deserve my comfy house, heil hitler, hope we capture stalingrad soon

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>>572496
>They were the #1 enemy of Germans.
>A higher percentage of German Jews fought in World War I than that of any other ethnic, religious or political group in Germany; some 12,000 died for their country

>>572454
I just fucking told you why>>572115

>You don't hear much about the Irish genocide, the Armenian genocide, the Ukrainian genocide... Likely because those people don't run your media outlets, politics, and world banks...

>>572507
no anon its the jewish conspiracy
all boleshiks are also jews
i never read a book or participated in any education but i heard it on 4chin and saw some shitty infrograph
it must be true

>>572496

Ah yes, the German 'Marxist revolution' of 1918. Which started with a mutiny by German sailors and the collapse of the German army. This immediatly was resolved by a social democrratic government and the remaining army. Wow, conspiracy right there.

Also:
>Hitler tries to take control of bavaria via coup in 1923
>What a hero

>commies try to take it over via coup in 1919.
>TRAITORS, JEWISH CONSPIRACY.

Also I thouroughly doubt 20,000 died, but even using your bullshit figures thats far less than the German Kaiser sent to die in WWI. Equally far less than even /pol/ack statistics about the holocaust. Hitlers racial policy cannot be justified by anyone in any way.

>>572507
>12,000 out of 20,000,000

They were conscripts as well..

>>572508

You dont hear about those genocides since the people who perpetrated them didnt get utterly defeated and tried. The Armenian genocide would be far better researched and known if the trials of the perpetratos were completed (ataturk threw them out).

Also they werent as complete or brutal as the holocaust. The Irish famine wasn't even engineered.

>>572511
Hitler
>nationalist, best interest of Germany in mind
Commies
>globalists, worst interest of Germany in mind, wanted to give it to the good boy Soviets who would take care of the poor poor workers and not put them in gulags

>>572512

>20,000,000

Thats the total death count for WW1, not just Germany you idiot. Youd have to include jewish soldiers in all the armies.

>>572518

>Hitler best interest of Germany in mind.
>Betrays his closest party members immediatly after taking power
>Shills out to established German elites, barely any of the major social reforms the nazis promised acutally happened. .
>starts WW2
>invades Russia.without adequate preparation
>Germany gets destroyed. Hitler wanted to destroy most german industry as well, only Speer lying to him stopped it.

What a German hero.

>>572521
I don't think that's the total death count, and I meant 2,000,000. It's so easy to sneak in extra numbers, soon they'll be saying 20,000,000 Jews died in the holo-OH WAIT

http://nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html

THE SAME NEWSPAPER ANON.... I WONDER

>>572518

Also can I add lots of the german communists werent pro-Soviet. Rosa Luxemburg was fiercy critical of Lenins repressive methods. They wanted Germany to be governed by the workers councils, not the Russians

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>>572529
Sometimes... They just have to go.

>>572533

Out of interest where does this article actually deviate from the standard death figures?.

>One newspaper employs exaggeration, the whole thing is a hoax.

by your logic all nazi claims are hoaxes as well, Der Sturmer and other Nazi papers employed exaggeration as a propaganda tool all the time.

>>572534
>burg

That's the thing about Communism, the people who instigate the crisis think its going to be all flowers and equality afterwards. Once the revolution occurs, they're the first against the wall. You vest all power in the hands of the state or you're an enemy of the state.

>>572537

>Le funny Trump memes excuses actual genocide for no reason.

>>572539
>nazi claims are hoaxes

Yeah no shit. Why can we acknowledge that the Nazis employed propaganda but any claim of the Jews doing the same is absolutely despicable?

>>572540

Probably why most Germans (and German jews) ended up defeating them really easily. After all it was right wing extremeists who overthrew Germany's government and threw everyone they didnt like against the wall. Including in their own party. Remember the night of the long knives?.

>>572546

Its not automatically despicable, its just generally false and kinda stupid.

>>572553
More like you're programmed to disregard any evidence to the contrary of the established narrative.

The holocaust is a widely debated topic, you don't just get to use as hominem to write off any discussion.

>>572562

If im programmed then so are you, you equally appear to disregard evidence to the contrary. Ive heard genocide denial arguments, not just about the holocaust, again and again, and they just dont seem to stack up factually. I mean it is possible to doubt literally anything, however there is more than enough evidence for the holocaust happening by historical standards.

If the jews have somehow managed to fabricate everything to that extent, they probably deserve to run the world in a conspiracy.

>>572540
Luxemburg was killed by former soldiers who had a carte blanche from the Social-democrats. It was the literal counter-revolution that killed her. Also she was totally pro revolution but against the form of "new democracy" and the nationalism Lenin advocated.
>>572533
You do realize absolute numbers are not going to prove my initial point wrong, don't you?
>>572562
>The holocaust is a widely debated topic
It is but the question whether is happened or not isn't (outside of stormfaggotery). There is also no debate whether millions of Jews were killed. Both things are the closest you can get to established scientific facts. Saying the holocaust didn't happen; the numbers are highly exaggerated etc. is like saying Abraham Lincoln did not exist.

They didn't know about it. Even several officers and regular soldiers within the Wermacht showed great opposition to Hitlers orders.

It turns out not all Germans actually turned into bloodhungry sociopaths in one night

>>572562
And this is why we have those places called "universities". We entrust them to develop narratives that fit best to the empirical evidence available. From time to time they do a strange thing which is publishing books. Try to read a few of them.

>>572589

Well explain how the army provided all the transports and weapons for the events to take place, and how no one was warned about it by these supposed non-conformists.

Also you have just admitted that Hitler did something like a 'bloodhungry sociopath', thats a start at least.

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Don't use /pol/, but i've always found it interesting how religiously people "defend" the holocaust as it is.

You seriously think there is no chance the numbers are exaggerated? Would war propaganda really surprise you so much?

I mean, people gleefully ate up things like pic related for years even though the editing is god awful.

>>572589
Hans Mommsen disagrees.

>>572597
>you seriously think there is no chance the numbers are exaggerated? Would war propaganda really surprise you so much?
exaggerated by whom? when? for what purpose? You gotta be more precise for me to respond to that. Nobody seriously debates that the Jewish Claim Conference wouldn't exaggerate the number. It is pretty much their job.
However is historical science there is 0 fucking discussion about whether millions of Jews died in the Holocaust whatsoever.

>>572595

There have been several psychological studies on why the Wermacht followed orders, but there are several cases of outright refusal from officers

"While the tribunal declared that the Gestapo, SD and SS (including the Waffen-SS) were inherently criminal organizations, the court did not reach the same conclusion with respect to the Wehrmacht General Staff and High Command."

The document series "The Wehrmacht" sheds some light on this

>>572597
i think you are creating a false equation when you say people are "religiously defending holocaust" because i dont think they are religiously defending holocaust as much as they are lashing out at people making silly remarks and claims such as the holocaust not happening
i dont remember people "religiously defending" the holocaust when confronted with, say, someone claiming that the intentionalist approach is stupid, or that the einsatzgrupped had killed a million, and not 1.5 million, jews

>>572607

For the same reason my pic was made. To justify the actions done to the Germans after war, to villanify them. The same ol stuff why normal propaganda is made.

And just to point it out, i'm not arguing against anything. i don't disagree with the holocaust.

>>572615

That's why i used "defend", because the holocaust as it is doesn't need to be defended.

>>572608
>but there are several cases of outright refusal from officers
And not a single one faced punishment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_Police_Battalion_101

>>572597
I think it's funnier when stormfags try so hard to disprove it. It's like a communist trying to deny how the Soviets were sabotaging for capitalist countries or something like that. Like why are they so eager to prove that there was no Jewish persecution? All it does is acknowledge that you didn't consider their cause just.

>You seriously think there is no chance the numbers are exaggerated? Would war propaganda really surprise you so much?
That's what I think. But it's either "he added 10 extra jews it's all a LIE" or "he revised the numbers he's a nazi dude".

At the end of the day, you know, the Jews are no more. Where did they go? I don't even care about the numbers.

>>572607
>exaggerated by whom?
Soviets

>when?
During the war.

>for what purpose?
To make history remember them as the good guys.

>>572625

Hold on, what are you trying to convey? My point was that the average German soldier, or German did not just magically turn into murdering sociopaths. I tried to prove this point by showing that there was resistance from the Wermacht to Hitlers orders.

The discussion was about the Wehrmacht, not the SS.

And i'm talking about Wehrmacht officers.

>>572635
let's not lose the sight of the fact that the Wehrmacht was readily, often and regularly complicit in war crimes and atrocities
not all of it, obviously, but certainly not limited or tiny numbers of individuals

>>572635
>I tried to prove this point by showing that there was resistance from the Wermacht to Hitlers orders.
Some but most of the resistance was for political reasons. I claim the Wehrmacht never refused to participate in the Holocaust. Maybe some individuals but there was nothing like an organized refusal to take part is mass murdering civilians.
>>572634
>soviet dictatorships lie
Yepp. No discussion here. But there some research done since 1945.

>>572635
>My point was that the average German soldier, or German did not just magically turn into murdering sociopaths.
why do people think becoming a "murdering sociopath" is so hard? look at our history

>>572637
Name one major country that didn't do war-crimes on a constant basis during WWII.

Should we start condemning everyone who participated in the war?

>>572650
Genocides is so WW1

>>572583
>no debate whether millions of Jews were killed

Yes there is, stop trying to paint the subject out as something silly. The argument is legitimate.

>>572645
People are using the word sociopath wrong but never-mind.
There is a lot of research on people becoming essentially mass murderers. They don't consider themselves killers but people who just get very hard work done. The "work" is most of the time (but not always) limited to a certain point in space and time (e.g. Ostfront). It is like people never read Popitz or Goldhagen.
Also mass killings one could easily argue are in a ways "normal". They happened in every year of humans history at some point. There are the rule; not the exception.

>>572655
>Yes there is
Where? Gimme names, institutions and titles of works. The only person that comes to mind is Ernst Nolte but literally no historian takes him seriously in Germany.

>>572590
You're proving my point. Universities are disproportionately run by Jews. Who's perspective fills the books you read? Do you know their claims to be true? Have you seen the evidence?

>>572661
>Universities are disproportionately run by Jews.
>ad hominem
Prove it tho. Show me the statistics proving that Jews run German or French universities (the places I studied).

>>572659
Paul Rassinier.

>>572667
He died in the 60s. I did not state there was no discussion I said there is none right now. Also he only argued to numbers were wrong (based on poor source material back then) not whether it happened or not.

>>572682
>there is none right now

No one in the West challenges it because to do so is career and social suicide (ask yourself why, whom you're not allowed to criticize are those who control you), no one outside the West challenges it because it doesn't matter to them, except in the middle east, and you're conditioned to think they're crazy.

>>572690
and yet the holocaust has been the subject of intense study for decades, indeed still is and the intent-function debate exists to this day, the sources revised, numbers challenged, materials uncovered
could it truly be that your perceived lack of scholars clamoring about it not happening has everything to do with it actually having happened, hence providing no grounds to that kind of clamoring, and nothing to do with a vast international jewish conspiracy

>>572690
No. I am conditioned to apply a set of methods and theories. Applying those I can say whatever I want at the university and believe me I do and I get a lot of shit for it. If you had any knowledge about the theory of science of the sociology of science you would know that challenging the hegemonic paradigm; the "facts", is what historians are trained to do. The more powerful it is the more rewards are granted if you can prove it was wrong (e.g. Einstein).

There are literally hundreds of people researching the holocaust and the anti-antisemitism in Germany alone. Why are our Jewish masters paying them to ask questions about the holocaust? Check the debate about the role of Jews collaborating in the Holocaust. You got an intensive discussion with every side firing heavy shot.
>(ask yourself why, whom you're not allowed to criticize are those who control you
The function of historical science is not to apply critique but to do research on what we consider past.

>>572707
What holocaust 'denial' is is denying the numbers.

You're under the false-assumption that it's denial of Jewish murder under the National Socialist government.
Is it a holocaust if one Jew is killed?

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>>570053
My granpappie was a bigshot at Boeing, and as the government decided they planes more than soldiers, they decided not to draft him.

My other grandpa, well... May have been involved in pic related.

Copypasta point taken, nonetheless.

>>572715
The Holocaust is the German attempt to kill every European Jew executing the Endlösung. It is not that hard. Also if you think fighting about definitions is interesting you are wasting everyone's time.

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>>572715
Let us not forget the first holocaust

>>572720
Okay, I'll just let you say what it is I am.
I trust you to be totally unbiased.

You would never say anything to make me and my side look like idiots.

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>>572735
What? I am just saying; talking about semantics is stupid and a waste of time. I don't insist on the word holocaust at all; for all I care we can call it Jimbo for the sake of this argument. If you had followed the thread you would see that I am not even insisting on its singularity.

>>572746
The argument was that no scholars are 'holocaust deniers', but it has been admitted fact that scholars do debate the numbers of the holocaust.

This is a completely relevant argument of semantics.

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This is a thinly veiled /pol/ thread, but, meh...

Over the years of reading various papers full of "facts" on the subject over the years, I've come to the following conclusions, regarding the holocaust:

- It happened.
- The numbers are exaggerated, but still impressive.
- A lot of the operations thought they were the only such operation, and thus the scale was not always well understood.
- Some of these operations were carried out independent of central command, further masking the scale.
- Of the civilians who were aware of such operations, many thought the operation unique to their city (many Germans repeated this in their memoirs.)
- In such cases, most civilians thought the Jews were being deported, not executed. (Also citable in various memoirs - even among the Jews.)
- In many such cases, deportation was the official position, and in some cases, there is evidence this was the original intention.
- There are reports in various war diaries to suggest Hitler himself was unaware of many of these operations, and during the last two weeks of his life, was actually shocked to discover the number and scale of them, which even then, were under-reported, due to the fragmentation of the operations.
- (Hitler gets way too much credit for this, along with nearly everything else that happened during that war.)

The Germans had been systematically economically raped by the victors, ever since the end of WWI. The bankers involved, due to traditions dating back to the early days of the Church, were largely Jewish. Though it was the Europeans elite, and not the employed Jews themselves, that were raking in most of the money, the Jews were nonetheless the face of that economic rape machine, and thus portraying them as the chief enemy of Germany was not at all difficult.

The truth tends to be more gray than black and white, so, all things considered, that's where my opinion ends up. ...Despite everything /pol/ has thrown at me over the years.

>>568351
Yes they did.
You can't live next to a pig farm and not smel the shit

>>572921
...but... Pork isn't kosher?

>>571923
They knew they were sent into camps, yes. They had absolutely no clue they were being gassed. Honestly it took an escaped prisoner to actually expose what's going on in there, the common German guy had no clue.

>>573036
Which is totally why they were hiding them in their attics.

>>570306
dachau wasn't a death camp

>>573239
They hid them because they didn't think IMPRISONING them was a good thing to do. The nazis were hiding the purpose of the death camps to such extent that even several top ranked nazis didn't know the Jews are being slaughtered, yet you think the average German pleb knew?

>>572183
Maybe its because my German isn't very good yet, but I cannot see what this site is trying to say.

>>573480
In her book "Fire Sign" Ingrid ringer covered include a so-called "Jewish declaration of war", which was published by the London Daily Express on the morning of March 24, 1933.

The article claims her version is heavily edited to better fit her narrative.

Though, looking at their comparisons, really, it says the same thing just with slightly different wording/translation... Though, at this point, I'm looking at a translation of an argument about a translation of a translation so...

>>572087
>But I can't figure out where did you find "international jews.

He probably took it from the "Jews of all the World Unite in Action" portion of that newspaper.

Jews have always had centralized power structures that facilitate their fat cat's policies. Look at the American Jewish Committee, formed in 1906, and the New York Kehillah, formed in 1908-9, for instance. Both had the effect of coercing the Jewish community into one cohesive group.

>>572010
>naturally jews was locked out of feudal system so they took this position in modernizing society
>their education and experience with arrogant old fashioned social elements they became more prone to ideas promising change, communism was one of this ideas

Jews were locked out of the system because they were seen as subversive. This isn't really controversial history—even the Jews talk about the anti-Semitic nature of the Pale of Settlement.

Also, you are being extremely deceptive: from the killing of the czar, to the formation of the Cheka, to the Holodomor, everything the Jews did was purposeful and malicious. It doesn't matter what ideological paradise you promised if you are cutting the guts out of civilians in the streets.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheka#Atrocities

>The Cheka is reported to have practiced torture. Depending on Cheka committees in various cities, the methods included:[2] being skinned alive, scalped, "crowned" with barbed wire, impaled, crucified, hanged, stoned to death, tied to planks and pushed slowly into furnaces or tanks of boiling water,[2] or rolled around naked in internally nail-studded barrels.

This was early communism, too, so it was almost certainly Jewish. >>570214

>>572115
>Marxism, being a globalist ideology at its core, was quickly adopted by many Jews.

Excellent post, but you forgot the created by them, too, part. It's just like Irving Kristol and the Neoconservative movement: made by Jews, for Jews, to facilitate Jewish interests. It isn't a matter of left or right, Neoconservative or Communist, but rather "is it good for the Jews?"

>>572165
They didn't. It was all number manipulation after the fact. There weren't 6,000,000 Jews in Europe according to official censuses—only the Jewish one.

Also, immigration to America took a large chunk of European Jewry. In the early 20th century there was a mass exodus. Even further, many of the people who purportedly were Christian Mediterraneans/Eastern Europeans were Jewish. It was an abuse of the fact that Americans falsely conceived of Judaism as a religion. This has a long history going all the way back to the Marranos of Spain.

>>572262
>So, do you believe in the worldwide Jewish conspiracy?

You do realize that's essentially what they have been kicked out of 100+ countries for, right? You act like it is some humorous impossibility, but history has proven you wrong more than 100 times. People obviously took the whole Jewish domination thing pretty damn serious—long before Hitler, too. It doesn't help you have people like Nicholas Donin in the 1230s, Johannes Pfefferkorn in the early 1500s, and Benjamin Freedman and Bobby Fischer of the modern age point-blank admitting that, yes, there is indeed a conspiracy.

>>573847
>lots of people believed it, it must be true

That's pretty textbook bad logic.

>>570946
>Look at me i'm a brainwashed moron

You should be worried if you're older than 15

>>573852
Lots of incredibly intelligent people believed it, even when it meant going against their own interests. Look at Bobby Fischer: he was undoubtedly a genius, but the second he called the Jewish Question the way he saw it, he's crazy? I don't think so. You're either a genius or you're not. You don't cease to become one when you have a few radio interviews ranting about Jewish control.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-bFmEHQfoGI

Not one lie in this video. The Holocaust didn't happen. People much smarter than you with a pair of balls understand that.

>>573852
>>lots of people believed it, it must be true

Theres people in this thread defending the holocaust using this logic yet you didnt find a problem in that

>>568329
He had to make them believe that destroying "the untermenchin" was an act of humanity.

>>573895
Uh, I've met holocaust survivors dude. And Ive had personal relationships with people who parent's and grandparents survived the holocaust.

>>569972
>gas victims
>aren't ash

Hmmm

They weren't advertised as "death camps". In fact, the "death camp" nature of them is overplayed. They were in fact concentration camps to remove them from the general population and prevent them from "perfidious" activity, or whatever Hitler suspected them of, until he could find a solution as to how to expel them from his land.

The part where "concentration camp" leads to "extermination camp" is hazy imo and I find it highly suspect that the only place these extermination camps existed was in the East, under Soviet-controlled territory. The same guys who made a science of generating propaganda to exert their influence.

Not /pol/ btw. I think plenty died from disease, starvation, and cruelty on part of the guards and SS.

>>569972
>Those gas victims look awfully emaciated. It's almost like they didn't die from gas or something. Or maybe it was that special type of gas that eats away body fat?
Do you have brain damage? Those are exhumed bodies of a death march

>>573980
They must have been immune to the effects of gas? How does a survivor work, exactly? No one is denying there were concentration camps a la the Allies. There were no systematic executions, and there is no hard evidence supporting there was.

>>574018
No they're not. They died from emaciation after Germany's supply lines were cut. Many German civilians died from emaciation as well. There were no death marches; that was the Japanese.

>>574043
>holocaust revisionism
Nice meme, son

>>570042
It's not that you question it, it's why, especially when there is shitloads of evidence to the contrary

You question it because you want it to be wrong. You're looking for your confirmation bias because of your bigotry, and you're fucking annoying on top of it.

You're like someone who keeps insisting that there's not enough evidence to believe that the sky is blue, and when people tell you to shut the fuck up because you're annoying everyone, you cry about how everyone else is ignoring you because of *their* bias.

>>570095
You bring down the discussion. Anything related to Germany, jews, or the holocaust HAS to come to "MUH 6 GORIION" we get it, you don't believe it, nobody cares and would like to have a different conversation, one without smug images and annoying posts.

Then again a better solution would be not to reply, so to all the other /his/torians I think we should all just agree to stop responding.

>>572773
you forgot the part where most of the kills were firing squads

>>574055
Those bodies died from emaciation, 100%. No one with an ounce of intelligence would say they were gassed. Gas does not eat away body fat. It doesn't matter how many emaciated Jews with their ribcages sticking out you show, it doesn't make this logic any less impenetrable.

I have also never heard of the German death marches. Can I please have a source on that?

>>570603
>The real question is, why were Jews ever 75% of a revolution in Russia
Tzarist Russia liked to use them as scapegoat, inspire pogroms etc. etc.

You have also many jews among KD's, Soc-revolutionares(including white soc-revs) and anarchists. I think the guy who assassinated one Russian prime minister was a jew. The secret police agent-mole who inspired that assassination(don't even ask how it worked) was also jewish. The guy who suicide-bombed tzar was Pole - again, guess why it was a Pole out of all nationalities living in Russian Empire.

>>572202
You're fucking dumbass.
Hebrew was half-dead language in Roman days.

In Israel, right after it was founded you've had 3 big linguistic groups - people who spoke yiddish, polish and both of them.

>>574220
>Tzarist Russia liked to use them as scapegoat, inspire pogroms etc. etc.

That's not true. The czars tried to accommodate them, but it wasn't enough. They even gave them free plows and land at one point, but to no avail. The people hated them because of the prerogatives given to them and their underhanded business tactics. None of the pogroms were ordered by any Czar.

>I think the guy who assassinated one Russian prime minister was a jew

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Bogrov

Yes. He killed Peter Stolypin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Stolypin

>>574262
>None of the pogroms were ordered by any Czar.
I think Lenin didn't told his peers to raze churches either.
Neither did Robbespierre, Marat or anybody else say that Versailles has to be plundered.

They've just "inspired" these things, that's how you've did it back then.

Oh oh oh but obviously the fact that pogroms happened on such convenient dates like "We lost Tzushima" 1905 is absolute coincidence.

>>574281
Czar Alexander II's death was widely considered to be a Jewish intrigue by the Russian proletariat. Most of the pogroms had a similar theme. They weren't exactly wrong either, as evidenced by:

>Oh oh oh but obviously the fact that pogroms happened on such convenient dates like "We lost Tzushima" 1905 is absolute coincidence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War#Financing

>During his canvassing expedition in London, the Japanese vice-governor of the Bank of Japan met Jacob Schiff, an American banker and head of Kuhn, Loeb & Co.. Schiff, in response to Russia's anti-Jewish pogroms and sympathetic to Japan's cause, extended a critical series of loans to the Empire of Japan, in the amount of 200 million US dollars (41.2 million pounds).

What this doesn't say, was that Jewish finance had put Russia on the blacklist, making it near impossible to get crucial loans. The defeat was the Jew's fault, they were right. Even wikipedia claims Schiff's motive was political, not financial.

The Jews earned their hate, get over it. Imagine their shock when the group that financed their defeat was the same group usurping the Czar.

>>574320
>What this doesn't say, was that Jewish finance had put Russia on the blacklist, making it near impossible to get crucial loans. The defeat was the Jew's fault, they were right.
Read about incompetence of Russian Baltic fleet during the travel and you'll know it's bullshit.

You know with firing practices where less that 1% of shots hit the target at a range they should have hit, constant friendly fire incidents, stationing in oriental port where the crews fell to various diseases in droves, insufficient supplies(the target practices were stopped when they've realised that some of their ships are running out of ammo - and they were going to fight battle when they've reached the target!).

The fact that the war was lost is only the indicator of the state Russia was in back then.

>>574364
Oh, I forgot another interesting incident.

Russians had submarine silently attached to the fleet by some guy and when they were entering some port to resupply they've almost destroyed it because they thought it's Japanese. They've haven't even crossed Cape yet.

It was THIS fucking disorganised.

>>574364
>>574388
I don't care about individual instances. Grand strategy is almost always more important than tactical errors or successes.

Finance is a huge part of strategy by anyone's definition. You are always going to do better than you would have with a net increase in manpower and material. Tactics are by far the most overrated aspect of conducting a war. The mouse doesn't beat the elephant no matter how well he moves.

>>574416
>bread and butter guise

Russians had numerical and material advantage over Japanese, they've somehow failed on land, so they've tried to break the blockade of Port Arthur(among others).
They've failed with this as well(because of the level of organisation their fleet presented) so Japan took control of strategic positions and could dictate peace.

Russian finances didn't had any influence on it, as it happened much too fast for them to matter.

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>>568329

>ctrl+f
>search for "banality of evil," "Eichmann in Jerusalem," and "Hannah Arendt"
>no mentions

I guess I shouldn't expect much from 4chan, but come on, guys, at least act like you want to educate yourselves.

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>>574434
>Memennah Memerendt
No.

>>574423
>Russians had numerical and material advantage over Japanese, they've somehow failed on land, so they've tried to break the blockade of Port Arthur(among others).
>They've failed with this as well(because of the level of organisation their fleet presented) so Japan took control of strategic positions and could dictate peace.

Even though Manchuria is technically closer to Russia, in reality it is not. Russia actually had longer supply chains to tend to than the Japanese did. Once again, finance always comes into the picture. Have you ever played an RTS game? If I have twice as much as you, you lose. If I have better upgrades than you with even supply, you lose. There is a point when tactics are irrelevant and pure technological and manpower superiority wins out.

Tactics are about efficiently using what you do have, but you would obviously always wish to have more. Wikipedia admits the loans that Schiff extended were crucial in the victory over Russia.

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>>570011
Mfw /pol/ has completed their transformation and is now tumblr with a different coat of paint

>>568329

The holocaust never happened. Lol at unsealed gas chambers

>>574454
>getting everything wrong.

Russian-Japanese war was a war about controlling certain important bases in southern Manchuria.

While the defeat on land may be attributed to long supply chains, the battle that effectively lost that war for Russians was a naval one. After this, they couldn't hope to regain initiative in sensible period of time - and there's where the finances may have had influence as in - if Russia would have more resources here, they would be able to recover for a longer while but you have to consider that the longer while meant YEARS of rebuilding wrecked fleet(and this time, training the crew) while Port Arthur was besieged. It's not like it would be besieged whole that time, but Russians certainly didn't want to loose for example Vladivostok to Japanese because they could STILL HAVE A CHANCE, REALLY, so the war would end in the same way no matter of what would happen.

Wikipedia is only good for science. History is a pool of paid political trolls.

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>>574454
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War#

>In contrast to the Japanese strategy of rapidly gaining ground to control Manchuria, Russian strategy focused on fighting delaying actions to gain time for reinforcements to arrive via the long Trans-Siberian railway, which was incomplete near Irkutsk at the time.

The railroad was incomplete.

>Meanwhile, the Russians were preparing to reinforce their Far East Fleet by sending the Baltic Fleet, under the command of Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky. After a false start caused by engine problems and other mishaps, the squadron finally departed on 15 October 1904, and sailed half way around the world from the Baltic Sea to the Pacific via the Cape of Good Hope in the course of a seven-month odyssey that was to attract worldwide attention.

Just more evidence that Russia wasn't in the grand position you think they were.

>>574508
>>574524
Look at the reinforcement path of the Baltic fleet. Finance certainly had a lot to do with it, anyhow. It is very expensive sustaining a land war across an ocean.

>>574508
>and there's where the finances may have had influence as in - if Russia would have more resources here, they would be able to recover for a longer while but you have to consider that the longer while meant YEARS of rebuilding wrecked fleet

You don't need to build them. You can also buy other nation's ships if you have enough money.

N E V E R H A P P E N E D
E
V
E
R
HAPPENED
APPENED
PPENED
PENED
ENED
NED
ED
D

(spoiler: it should have though)

>>574537
>Look at the reinforcement path of the Baltic fleet.
Look at the amount of fuckups Baltic fleet committed. They were resupplied in fuel on every stop.

Crews weren't trained properly by the time they've left the port.

Then they've stopped in Madagascar of all places for two months and waited for Black Sea Fleet to come but as you can imagine malaria came faster than Black Sea Fleet.

Why would anybody greenlights something like that?

I'll tell you why. Russia is the most fucking corrupted place on earth. Everybody who ruled Russia at any point of time had to deal with it, late Romanovs certainly couldn't. The administration gets infiltrated by incompetent people who are willing to pay for their position. The absolute incompetence of their administration caused their defeat and it's a recurring problem.

Every time when Russia delves deep into its corruption and the ruler is mediocre who can't do shit, they go to war. Sometimes they succeed and carry on but then they find that tough nut to crack and decade later they're not ruling Russia anymore.
>>574551
>You can also buy other nation's ships if you have enough money.
Outdated ships. There was naval arms race going back then anon, nobody was just "selling ships". You could've also pay shipyards to make them(it's not like Russia was able to make anything bigger than cruiser on their own) but it also took time.
And then you have to train the crews which takes lots of time as well.

It's not that simple.

>>571923
They viewed it similarly to what was happening to Japanese people in the US. It was viewed as necissary to secure german position in the war from potential ally sympathisers.

>>574132
>Gas does not eat away body fat.
It's hard to find a person with body fat if you grab him from ghetto

>>574664
>It's hard to find a person with body fat if you grab him from a ghetto after the supply lines carrying food are cut.

You forgot to finish your sentence.

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>Hitler started the holocaust
No.

>>575417
>_____ started the holocaust

No

>>574434
Anyoene know where i can download the full tapes of the Eichman trial?

I've seen some parts of it, like there was a jewish expert crying over a shoe in Aushwitz or something. Like he literally had the shoe on the witness stand and started crying. There were some other silly parts but I don't remember and I don't remember where i watched it