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How are there still Marxists-Leninists in...
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How are there still Marxists-Leninists in modern day and age? I mean, at least the other Marxists can use the "NEVER BEEN TRIED" copout, but how do M-Ls cope with the fact the implementation of their ideas ended up being a complete failure?
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>>553390
>How are there still Marxists-Leninists in modern day and age
>IT'S CURRENT YEAR
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>>553390
The Soviet Union managed to carry out one of the greatest and fastest increases in human standard of living in history via crash industrialization. Not everything the USSR ever did was bad.
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>>553395
Yes, in the CURRENT YEAR, since in the CURRENT YEAR they can easily see that Marxism-Leninism has been tried several times and it ended up being shit everywhere.
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>>553397
The US did it better and without all the famines.
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>>553415
It also took a lot longer, the USSR would've probably not survived Barbarossa without Stalin's breakneck speed industrialization. While the famines were the result of criminal incompetence from the commies, the Soviet Union by the 60s had a similar standard of living to the west (not exactly so, it still lagged behind somewhat) whereas it had started from an agrarian basis where people didn't live much better off than under feudalism.
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Ask these guys:
>>543038
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>>553436
USSR lagged severely behind even other East Block countries (East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary), let alone the fucking west.
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>>553390
>How are there still Marxists-Leninists in modern day and age?
Well 25 years ago the Soviet Union still existed.

>but how do M-Ls cope with the fact the implementation of their ideas ended up being a complete failure?
Well most of the Maoists I know follow class praxis rather than Mao Zedong Thought. This appears to be the case in Nepal, India and the Phillippines.
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>>553415
Trailotears
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>>553390
The same way the bourgeoisie maintained liberalism despite the hundreds of years and failures it took to implement their ideas. Also >>553397
Also since MLs are materialists they don't romanticize the past and care about notions of mythical origination like you seem to be.
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Stalin was a good dude built socialism in one nation, Soviet Union didn't turn revisionist until his death and the rise of Khrushchev.
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>>553467
?
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>>553415
The US had famines, but the histories and makes no sense to compare them, especially since the US didn't have to live under constant threat of foreign invasion and complete destruction by every global power (and not modern powers) after its founding.
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>>553415
And with like 150 more years
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>>553483
The US was being threatened by Britain all the way up to the mid 1820s and also had a civil war in 20th century. Yet the somehow managed not to collapse on their asses.
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>>553461
If the last HDI report that includes the Soviet Union is to be believed, even after the perestroika economic collapse, the Soviets only really lagged behind the west in GDP per capita.
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>>553491
19th century*
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>>553469
I don't romanticize the USSR, I'm simply showing one of the achievements Marxist-Leninist society achieved, to go against the idea that it was a complete and total failure.
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>>553390
>ended up being a complete failure
You have minute thinking abilities. /v/ might be more your speed. Then again this board is littered with very simply anti-commie memers.
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>>553491
The U.S. also had an ocean to protect it from European rabble and premade connections to the economies of Western Europe, none of which the soviets had
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>>553494
>the Soviets only really lagged behind the west in GDP per capita.
This was irresolvable because the welfare state was administered at the firm level.
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>>553504
Mass famines due to incompetence and mass murders due to malice are usually defining characteristics of "Complete failure".

But hey, so long as you're comfy, just keep your head buried in the sand. Try not to inhale.
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>>553514
>incompetence
Many were intentional
Stalin was a brutal fuck
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>>553491
>the mid 1820s

Not even comparable.
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>>553507
The Soviets set up communist buffer states all around them after the war, they didn't face literally any tangible threat and still collapsed.
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>>553481
The trail of tears is a rather famous expropriation of private collective property by the US government in favour of capitalism which resulted in a large preventable death.
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>>553491
The War of 1812 was the last major war by a foreign invader, after which the US wars play the role of invader (not including civil war which is irrelevant). And again, they never had to face multiple world powers at once with modern planes and warships like the communists did. Then of course there's that bomb later on.
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>>553527
>any tangible threat
>atomic bombs
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>>553501
You misunderstand, I wasn't saying you romanticize the USSR, but that MLs don't (or at least aren't supposed to).
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>>553544
>USSR collapsed because the US had atomic bombs

Is that what you're saying? Because something doesn't add up then.

Moreover, the specific nature of atomic warfare was what prevented an actual war, everyone wanted to avoid MAD.
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>there are people in this board who are more sympathetic to feudal monarchy than post-stalin socialism
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>>553542
Talking to most Americunts about this is pointless. Not just about the commits, but war in general. Americans have never had their cities reduced to rubble by bombs, or watched the majority of their children die defending from an invasion. The pains of the industrial revolution are also far off. Americans judge strife by how long a queue is, they are by and far a group of coddled children.
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>>553557
the USSR felt a need to maintain parity with the United States specifically to ensure that MAD would still be a thing. The problem was that this led to highly excessive allocation of resources to the military, which is the main reason why the Brezhnev-era stagnation happened, rather than just "lol planned economies can't make bread".
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>>553557
I'm saying that there was a treat to the USSR's existence, which you claimed there wasn't.
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>>553576
*threat
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>>553565
>le America strawman

I'm the guy he was replying to and I'm European.
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>>553538
>6,000 Cherokee dead due to harsh conditions on a forced exodues is in any way shape or form comparable to millions of people being shipped by trains to gulags for their planned extermination
Uh huh.
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>>553514
The Soviet famines had many factors of causation, mostly because of poor weather and the massive human toll of the war, but also because of the blunder of Lysenkoism and unpreparedness, which aren't matters of incompetence so much as a promising idea that didn't pay off and unavoidable circumstances. And no there was no intentionally caused famines. How many times we have to have this conversation?
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>>553564

At least social mobility exists in feudal monarchies
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>>553575
So basically.

>America can produce nukes without collapsing
>USSR cannot produce nukes without collapsing
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>>553587
historians have been having the conversation about the 1930s soviet famine for literal decades, its probably never going to end so long as the debate remains so politicized, with one side wanting to claim the other as Just As Bad If Not Worse Than Hitler, with the other claiming We Didn't Do Anything Wrong.
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>>553586
Not only is that not what happened in the gulags but they also weren't designed that way. Maybe you're thinking of the German concentration camps.
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>>553589
lol
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>>553564
Feudal monarchies did no longer exist, other than perhaps some remote crap kingdoms somewhere in Asia. Russia and the Transleithanian half of Hungary abolished serfdom in the mid 1800s and they were among the last ones to do so, this "SERFDOM STILL EXISTED DURING NICHOLAS II." meme is just that, a meme, created by communists and stretching the definition of serfdom so thin you'd be basically forced to believe that paying taxes was a form of serfdom.
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>>553590
Which goes against the idea that it's a 'compete failure' given that nukes generally aren't a necessary product unless you're in a retarded.

Was the USSR brutal? Yes. Was it horrible on human rights? Yes. Did it massively industrialize and extremely large country at an extremely high rate? Yes.
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>>553590
Again, try /v/
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>>553609
*a retarded war
Fuck, I should proofread
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>>553610
Again, try sucking my cock. Way to contribute nothing.
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>>553587
Lysenkoism and collectivization are incompetence. The Holodomor was malice.

>b-but the H-Holodomor was caused by the Ukrainians starving to death, not the Soviets killing them
Eliminating all food sources in a region and then blockading it off so no food can get in is a planned famine
>b-but look at this article from the Soviet Ministry of Propaganda that says the filthy subhuman Ukrainians were killing their own cattle
Stalin a good boy din do nuffin
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>>553607
>he thinks because something is officially abolished doesn't mean it can't exist unofficially
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>>553609
Not only were they necessary, the invention of nukes and stockpiling them was one of the greatest achievements of 20th century, since it quite literally prevented an outbreak of WW3 more than once, and the US managed to stockpile them without tanking their entire economy along the way like the Soviets did. I mean honestly, if you're not even able to maintain defense of your country without going bankrupt then yes you are a complete failure.
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>>553618
>the holodomor was intentional
>but they were incompetent
If they were incompetent the forced famines would've failed.
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>>553607
I know the late Russian Empire wasn't feudal, it could be probably best described as a transitionary state between feudalism and capitalism, since there was a minor development of the latter in the larger urban centers. The observation I was smugly making is that a lot of people in 4chan will fall over themselves to defend feudalism as the most righteous social order and deny any of its atrocities, while simultaneously becoming all about liberal human rights when it comes down to gommunism.
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>>553627
>changing definitions to fit his argument
>ignoring my points
The difference between the average american and the average russian in 1989 was a lot smaller than in 1917
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>>553586
>to millions of people being shipped by trains to gulags for their planned extermination
Bit of hyperbole?

Firstly, the post-archival figures are remarkably low.

Secondly, only those sentenced without right to correspondence were planned to be executed in GuLag, as an emergency war measure (disgustingly carried out).

People sentenced with right to correspondence were planned to be worked, grossly inefficiently. But not in nearly the same sense that the German state planned the work-to-death of slavs.

And care to give me the moral standpoint which we can all agree on from which to make that comparative judgement? (This is bait, doing so would be >>>/pol/itical).

>>553589
>At least social mobility exists in feudal monarchies
More so than in capitalism.

>>553590
The USSR could produce nukes without collapsing, their military industrial complex was lean, efficient, high quality and well remunerated.

Their consumer good sector was fucking shite, and always had been since 1917, and was unsolveable due to proletarian resistance. (Haraszti, M on why fordism was different in the East).
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>>553618
>Lysenkoism and collectivization are incompetence.
They aren't.
>The Holodomor was malice.
The 32-33 Famine stretched far beyond the Ukraine.
>Eliminating all food sources in a region and then blockading it off so no food can get in is a planned famine
That's not what happened. It's on record that Stalin personally requested extra aid be sent to the Ukraine.
>Stalin a good boy din do nuffin
No one said that.
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>>553626
>he thinks everything he doesn't like qualifies as serfdom

As for industrialization which is so often parroted on here, the late imperial Russia industrialized at a faster rate than the USSR. In fact the period between the revolution and Stalin's 30s slowed down the industrialization rate to almost nothing.
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>>553579
Sure you are, hamburger
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>>553630
Monarchists themselves are a minority on 4chan and feudal monarchists are almost non-existent. Not for moral reasons but simply because it was outdated with the rise of capitalism. You're beating a strawman.
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>>553636
It's worth noting that the majority of gulag deaths happened during the time the USSR was fighting World War II, at which point the entire nation was on total war footing and the economy was directed entirely towards winning the war rather than ensuring the living standard of the population.
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>>553636
>The USSR could produce nukes without collapsing
At one point in the early 80s literally 40% of their budget went to defense alone. That's idiotic.
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>>553627
It's easy to be a "success" when you're the only country in the world that came out of the war suffering exactly no infrastructure damage but a minimal loss of soldiers (late entry in the war being the biggest reason), expanded your territorial sphere of influence to Imperial standards, and thus controlled the global economy.
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>>553648
yeah they're probably a tiny minority, they're just really fucking loud when they show up and post a lot, at least in the threads i've seen them, but it could always be the work of 1 or 2 lunatics, given the ability to just samefag forever.
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>>553618
>The Holodomor was malice.
The Holodomor is a post WWII Ukraine nationalist propaganda tool.

The Soviet famine of 1932-1933 was not intentional, but was grossly aggravated by changes to the rural transport, merchant and productive system. These changes were deliberate.

When the Politbureau became aware of the famine, they instantly sent sufficient famine aid to the region. (Post archival research from minutes).

In the Ukraine to my knowledge, and probably in the other affected republics, this failed to reach the affected villages, and was eaten by urban citizens. Urban Ukrainians literally starved their neighbours. Much as the Soviet Union literally starved rural ukrainians by having destroyed the networks used to survive famine without providing alternate suitable networks.

This is a vast distance from the hysteric national mythology of the holodomor.

The central element of the holodomor is Ukraine exceptionalism, and the denial that non Ukrainian Soviet citizens starved in 1932-1933
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>>553654
Brezhnev was a drooling fucking retard, even Khrushchev, despite his fuck-ups in agriculture, was more concerned with trying to advance the well-being of the people than LOL LET'S TRY TO BE MORE POWERFUL THAN THE ENTIRE WEST.
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>>553657
Germany was buttfucked into oblivion in not only one but two wars, stripped of all of their colonial posessions, infrastructure left in ruins, their industrial patents literally stolen by the Americans, country itself partitioned into two vassal shitholes and somehow still managed to come back and become an economic superpower. The western part, that is.
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>>553664
It was also given a shit ton of money for that sole reason
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>>553661
Yeah, but even besides that, the gross defense expenditure of the US was more than what the Soviet invested in, but ended up being only a fraction of their budget. Probably because they didn't have an economy built on pure lunacy.
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>>553660
literally the only reason ukraine was affected so much is its status as the historical agricultural heartland of the soviet/russian state. the famine also affected southern russia heavily since it was also an important agricultural region, but none of the holodomor propagandists seem to even acknowledge this, since it makes it clearer there was no intention to Literally Murder Ukrainians For Being Ukrainian.

Also, what kind of government stops carrying out a genocide deliberately?
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>>553640
>he thinks everything he doesn't like qualifies as serfdom
Wasn't even implied mate. Serfdom may not have existed but it's a fact that the Serfs in large continued as such. It's not like the Tsars you're so fond of for no reason did anything to actually lift them out of their caste.
>the late imperial Russia industrialized at a faster rate than the USSR
Kek, nice phrasing
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>>553664
West German reconstruction was heavily subsidized by the US government specifically to build a bulwark against communism.
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>>553654
>At one point in the early 80s literally 40% of their budget went to defense alone. That's idiotic.
It certainly is, but their ruling class was much leaner than in the west, a much higher volume of surplus value went into fixed capital investment. Problematically in department I, not II.

>>553650
I still find it hard that despite the complete ossification of proletarian and party democracy that those confined without the right to correspondence were murdered in 1941, and, also, that people like Radek were murdered on orders when serving a sentence (tenner I think?).

Gulag was horrifically inefficient in terms of value form.
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>>553640
>the late imperial Russia industrialized at a faster rate than the USSR
Explains why the Russian Empire was literally unable to even fully equip their conscripts with guns in WW1.
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>>553664
Sure, now why don't you re-read the post you just quoted and maybe you'll see why that was even fucking possible.
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>>553664
It's called a puppet state. West Germany was literally a Potemkin village, except it actually had people in it.
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>>553674
>nice phrasing

It's an objective fact. Russia underwent land and agricultural reforms, Transsiberian railroad got built, factories were popping up everywhere, infrastructure was being built, everything was experiencing modernization and the difference between 1900 and 1917 alone was fucking massive. Then the commies arrived to fuck shit up and industrialization pretty much halted until Stalin.
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>>553679
They had that problem in the Winter War in 1939 as well, not to mention they got their asses handed to them by a tiny undeveloped shithole like Finland.
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>>553701
The Winter War wasn't to my knowledge a problem of equipment, it was that Stalin literally murdered most of the officers, leaving the red army practically leaderless.
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>>553691
>puppet states and Potemkin villages

Something the USSR was an expert in. Somehow the West German economic strength survived the call war so not sure how does the Potemkin village accusation stand.
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>>553704
>The Winter War wasn't to my knowledge a problem of equipment

It was. Read up on it. Hordes of underequipped, undertrained Soviet peasants were sent to a war against a tiny country and the casualty count was in hundreds of thousands.
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>>553693
They were sucking french dick for the money for industrialization, which ended with the first world war
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>>553673
>Also, what kind of government stops carrying out a genocide deliberately?
What kind of government ships sufficient famine relief into the affected areas rail heads, while trying to accomplish a genocide by starvation in order to export grain?

The mythical Soviet Union in the fantasy land of white reactionary and fascist Ukraine nationalists funded by the CIA through the Radio America / Radio Free Europe programme.
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>>553719
>white reactionary and fascist Ukraine nationalists funded by the CIA

It's like you wanted to make a post using nothing but buzzwords.
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>>553710
>Something the USSR was an expert in
>He thinks because it has a Russian word it's from the USSR
Whew lad.
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>>553710
please read
>>553657
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>>553718
And the soviet union was forced to honour the debt.
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>>553719
That was the point I was getting at, if the USSR were so intent on destroying the Ukrainians, they would've actually finished the job, I can't name a single government in history that decides "this is too much genocide" and just stops, usually genocides end because the victims manage to fight back, the government collapses, or because there's nobody left to kill.
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>>553728
Of course the USSR was great at building Potemkin villages, they literally had tiny bits of seemingly developed zones they paraded gullible western cafeteria intellectuals around (G.B. Shaw being one of those) trying to convince them the USSR was a socialist paradise. North Korea does it even today.
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>>553724
>It's like you wanted to make a post using nothing but buzzwords.
It is like you're not familiar with US imperialism in Central Europe 1947-1965
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>>553735
>Of course the USSR was great at building Potemkin villages
What villages, where?
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>>553738
>Ukraine
>central Europe

For the record I do believe Holodomor wasn't a genocide but a genuine fuckup caused by the commies being all low IQ voodoo believing retards.
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>>553751
>implying voodoo doesn't work
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>>553750
Read up about Shaw's trip around Soviet Russia.
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>>553734
Nixons' halting the bombing of Cambodia/Laos?
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>>553776
As horrible as that was, I wouldn't call it a genocide, since I doubt Nixon's goal was to completely eradicate the peoples of those countries.
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>>553751
The Ural-Siberian method and the scissor crises pretty much indicate that the policy was deliberate and designed to transform the class complexion of the countryside by proletarianisation and if not then by enslaving the peasantry to the nomenklatura through Kolkoz managers and Machine Tractor Station party members.

In contrast to Kolkoz members who suffered periods of recurrent famine until the 1950s, Sovkoz employees didn't starve.
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>>553784
Last time I checked the international genocide definition included "destroying their way of life" in ethno cultural terms. Intentionality isn't a particularly critical element, as long as the victim is perceived ethnically.
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>>553767
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>>553565
unless your from the middle countries we invaded your just as full of shit about not knowing war
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>>553767
>>553811
What's your source mate?
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>>553565
And neither have you, assuming you're European who isn't from the Balkans or Chechnia.
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To be honest, the ideals of Marxist were meant to be embodied in Communism and the USSR, but in reality it was far from it.

Communism actually works quite well in small communities that fully believe in the cause (not forced to) and there isn't a totalitarian dictatorship. The whole idea of Marxist is that everyone is meant to be equal. When it was put "in practice" this was far from the case. Also there was very little motivational systems for workers in initial communism, + tones of trade embargoes etc.

>TLDR: Communism was badly implemented and quickly lost base with its core values
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>>553941
I think that's kind of the point, marxist ideas work only on a voluntary basis. Now apply that to a country:

>revolution overthrows the ruling class
>yay! now the people can finally embrace socialism!
>wait, what do you mean they DON'T WANT to live in socialism?
>shit shit shit, we need to convince them somehow

And this is where coercion comes into play. It's not a bug, it's a feature and thus every (Marxist) socialist revolution will inevitably lead into a totalitarian tyranny.
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>>553941
>The whole idea of Marxist is that everyone is meant to be equal.
Marxism doesn't seek to enforce equality.
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>>553475
>good dude
To the gulag anonski
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>>553846
Well?
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>>553734
Genocide is a mischaracterization. The goal was never to starve all of the Ukrainians. It was to bring them back into line.
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>>554111
No mate. Where do you want your bottle?
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>>554111
Idiot.
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>>554142
>>554146
There will never be another major communist state. Cry harder.
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>>554150
>communist state
There will never be a communist state.
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>>554150
Keep dreaming.
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>>554154
>I'm going to play that game where I talk about the Marxian definition of communism rather than communism as an ideological branch of socialism.

>>554170
How's that transition to mercantilism going?
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>>554179
>I'm going to play that game where I talk about the Marxian definition of communism rather than communism as an ideological branch of socialism.
Except if you're being a cheeky bastard and taking this route you're still wrong, since China is both a major state and ideologically communist. So which way do you prefer being wrong?
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>>553415
The US has better agricultural land, and has a longer growing season. And everything else people have said.
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>>554179
>this doublethink
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>>553390

Marx's theories focused on class vs class.
Lenins theories emphasized country vs country.

Just as there are rulers and ruled within any given society, there are core ruling states, and periphery ruled states. Basically.

Seriousluy OP, Marx related fields are the most accurate social/political insights out there.

Just because you know how something works, doesn't mean you can survive it, or even change it for the better.
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>>553415
>Start off with a large majority of your population living like Medieval peasants
>Get invaded by your neighbors which kills millions and ruins your economy
>Throw in a civil war that rampages across the entire country right afterwards for good measure
>As soon as you get a handle on that, have more or less every major power in the world trying to undermine your government
>Get invaded by that same neighbor again, with even more death and destruction this time
>Still manage to give most of your population a half-decent living compared to what they had before you came
>The guys across the ocean who were already prospering by the start of the 20th century and haven't had a war in their country for a hundred years say you suck because you're not as rich as them
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>>554351
Literally the only soil on Earth more fertile than the Great Plains is in Ukraine.
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>>554107
not him and my source would be in a language you dont understand but it wasnt unthinkable to invite western intellectuals and show them how "socialism is superior"

the one relation i know was a subversion operation

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/big-fish-how-hungarian-security-services-tried-land-martin-gilbert

article in english the story is real
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>>553846
>>554107
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>>554358
How? The Chinese economy is massively more privatized than it was fifty years ago.
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>>554486
>Soviet Union was communist because they had a Red Flag and a communist party.
>China has a Red Flag and a communist party, not communist, doesn't count because doesn't conform to muh abstract ideal.
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>>554499
Neither of them were communist because they had wage labour, value form circulation, and a substitutionalist party using bourgeois parliamentary modes rather than an organic body of intellectuals within the class within the organs of factory self-rule.
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>>553660
Why would Putin bother astroturfing 4Chan?

Anyway, this is what it looks like, anons.
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>>554424
>Throw in a civil war that rampages across the entire country right afterwards for good measure
Yeah that was the direct result of the commie revolution, how convenient to leave that out.
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>>554499
>Strawmanning this hard.

>>554507
>No true Scotsmanning this hard
>implying those conditions will ever exist.

Can we just all agree to rename the the "No True Scotsman" fallacy the "Internet Commie" fallacy?
>>
There are plenty of them, which is really scary.
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>this thread
>muh Holodohoax BTFO
>Politburo confirmed trying to do its best
>le Stalin is Satan meme BTFO
>muh materialism is bad BTFO
>muh industrialization is evil BTFO
>muh gulags BTFO
>muh USA stronk BTFO
>Burgers removed everywhere
>asspained shitposters complaining it's all Putin
>anarchobabbies complaining the USSR wasnt socialist as usual
>will provably get BTFO in turn

Fuck I love /his/ stay based
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>>553719
>What kind of government ships sufficient famine relief into the affected areas rail heads, while trying to accomplish a genocide by starvation in order to export grain?
UK?
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>>553395
retard
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>>555286
Alexander Solzhenitsyn would like a word with you.

>prosecutors being executed for trumped up crimes
>investigators who consider you guilty before they even begin and are more like interrogators

>torture practices and the use of special cells

>moar?
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>>555301
>Just one of the tree points is not common practice in the USA

Kek. Based liberalism imarite?
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>>555301
>Solzhenitsyn
Into the trash it goes
>this socialist society is so inhumane
>instead what we need is a new Great Russian Empire to destroy the Bolshevist Jews with the same methods they used against us
>only then can we restore the Church to its rightful place and become the greatest power on earth, run of course by ultranationalist intellectuals who contribute jackshit to society like myself
If anyone deserved to be in a gulag, it was him
>humanism is good so long as it's used against commies, it shouldn't actually exist though lol people should just morally embrace muh Tsar and muh intellectuals
>pls Gib Nobel

Best part is how there's now more Americans incarcerated over petty BS than were ever in the gulag (which was always mostly petty criminals and POWs anyway :^)
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>>555309
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>>555308
The US are a communist nation.
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>>555332
>all value is created through labor
[citation needed]
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>>555331
His writings on the gulag, Bratva/Vor v Zakone, as well as the Soviet Union are still good.
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>>555331
>instead what we need is a new Great Russian Empire to destroy the Bolshevist Jews
That's exactly what they needed though, how can you dispute that?
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>>555342
>>>/pol/
>wow this system is inhumane and backward
>better restore feudalism and live in the dark ages
>Oh and use the same methods I hate because it's only bad when commies do it

>>555339
Except it's shit propaganda and feels>realz pandering for the Western and samizdat audience

>>555336
Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations :^)
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>>555347
Solzhenitsyn stripped the aura of respectability from the Vor and showed him to be a lowlife thug. Until then, most people thought the Thieves were honest rogues who lived by stealing and had a code of honor. In fact, this was never the case and mythology perpetuated it for long enough to make it seem true. Thieves in prison were as thuggish as the name implies, even more so than it would. It was one of the ways the Soviet prison administration would enforce order, through their "socially friendly elements" in the GULAG.
>>
>>555347
I don't think he ever said anything about feudalism and dark ages, anon. His yearning for removing the Bolshevik Jews from the government however was a great moral imperative and he was a genuinely good person.

>Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations

I wonder why do marxists think that Wealth of Nations is some sort of capitalist Bible when all the modern market guys laugh at Smith for being a retard?
>>
>>553436
Yeah but even taking into consideration speed of development, Japan and south Korea still seem more impressive
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>>553672
Actually this was an intentional strategy by the US was out spend the USSR and watch them spend them selves into oblivion but of course the US could spend more with how rich we were after ww2 but the USSR is gone and for some reason reversing our insane defense budget is completely off the table
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>>555492
its not insane.
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>>555492
>>555583
>make big army
>cut funding and support
>get coup
>america is now military dictatorship
History shows us this is what happens when you make a monster
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>>555492
Huge military makes you respected, it was true in the ancient world and it's just as true nowadays.

I mean look at modern Russia, without nukes, huge military and oil they'd be literally an Ukraine-tier shithole, but those three things manage to keep them semi-relevant on the global stage.
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>>555492
Our defense budget is huge to maintain oil. Without oil, we lose our spot as a super power. The military is bloated and wasteful, but entirely necessary (at least as far as keeping America an oil gobbling super power monstrosity is concerned).
>>
Marxist-lenninists are just another form of control freak, very similar to the emotions driving all the 'activism[s]'.

Also, I'm a real Marxist, I made this video very late at night, and I've also lost some weight since then... but yeah... I shouldn't do this, but anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65rFiGxI84M
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>>555362
>>I wonder why do marxists think that Wealth of Nations is some sort of capitalist Bible
Because liberals normally quote it as if it was.
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>>555711
No they don't. If anything they go with Hayek or with Bastiat if we're talking older sources.
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>>553461

Fuck off with your US ass licking capitalist loving cocksucking back to /pol/
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>>555722
>austrians
>relevant anywhere outside their internet cult
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>>555760
Austrians as a whole no, but Hayek is extremely relevant. Even if he was the de facto founder of Austrian school, he had a tremendous influence on the monetarists as well.
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>>555746
Fuck off with your Soviet Russia ass licking communist cocksucking back to sosach, пидopaхa
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>>555763
Influential in monetarists how? Monetarists used mathematical models (rejected by austrians) similar to old neokeynesian models, with a few changes in how variables behave (rejected by austrians). Epistemologically, to friedman "the only relevant test of the validity of a hypothesis is comparison of prediction with experience" while to austrians "The ultimate yardstick of an economic theorem's correctness or incorrectness is solely reason unaided by experience". In prescriptive policies, monetarists argued for a constant increase of the monetary base, which would make austrians shiver.
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>>553390
capitalism has been tried too. what is your point?
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>>553390
Lenin's NEP was likely the most successful economic policy ever.

Go back to school.
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>>555784
>Influential in monetarists how?

Read Free to Choose from Friedman. Also, Hayek didn't reject mathematics or at least not to the insane extent Rothbard and Mises do. Honestly, I don't think Hayek should be included among Austrians after all, he's the Michael Altman of the Austrian movement.
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>>555808
It was basically a revert to feudalism with unpaid serfs providing free labor in forced collectives and labor camps.
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>>555813
>I have literally never read a single history book in my Life: the post

This wasn't even how it was in the direst days under Stalin
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>>555814
That's because Stalin's days were actually an improvement over Lenin's reign.
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>>555811
I have one match for "hayek" in the entire book. But i should probably read the book before making a judgement. In any case, i don't doubt the philosophical influence hayek may have had in friedman, but i don't see anything austrian in monetarist theory itself.
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>>555821
That no one can deny. Based Stalin left the Lenin's wet dream aside (the international revolution aside) and actually build a great country.
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>>555332
Jesus christ. You guys can't even mischaracterize your opposition without coming off retarded.
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>>553390
>How are there still Marxists-Leninists in modern day and age?

How wouldn't there be? Grimdark immersive media for teenagers is doing great across the board. Marxism-Leninism has good atmosphere, decent factions and endless lore going for it.
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>>555988
It's a parody m8. The original pic is as retarded but pro austrian.
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>>555296
You are a gentleman and a scholar. But Bengal '43 involved deliberate non-shipment of famine aid. You must be thinking pre-war famines.
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>>555228
Marx established the analytical criteria LONG before experiments were initiated.
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>>555286
You do realise that it is the anarchists and autonomists who are defending the tankies and soviet union—defending it for what it actually was, from condemnations of it for what it wasn't.
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>>555331
>If anyone deserved to be in a gulag, it was him
They were the best years of his life.
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>>555336
>[citation needed]
Marx, K. Capital. Volume 1. Chapters 1-5.
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>>557422
>no proof in there
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>>555813
The NEP reintroduced value form maximisation into the wage labour factories: it reduced the proletarian nature of the Soviet factory to a wage labour, ie a working class relationship.

The NEP reintroduced a market in agricultural products. With the burdens of serf-loan and landlordism removed, peasants basically had their tax load reduced by 75%. And peasants chose to not work with this extra time.

You're thinking of the 5 year plans mate.
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>>555286
In this thread, I don't see even one bolchevik nor a coat rack.
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>>555332
>>557422
>value is created through labour

No one is this retarded, right?
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>>557450
Shut up and click that link :
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/
Thank you !
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>>557457

Wow, once again proof of how retarded Marx was.
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>>557463
You don't like him.
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>>557469

I don't like his thoughts as they go against reality.
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>>557450
I like this quote:

>Whether a diamond was found accidentally or was obtained from a diamond pit with the employment of a thousand days of labor is completely irrelevant for its value.

Once sentence completely destroying LTOV.
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>>557473
Do you like the matrix?
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>>557483

It's a good movie series.
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>>557487
It's a bit creepy tho.
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>>557492
Only women use the word creepy. Are you a woman?
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>>557492

Part of what makes it good.
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>>557493
Are you rich?
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>>557501
Yup.
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>>557510
Hello! *grabs your hand*.
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>>557517
I'm gay though, women are icky.
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>>557525
They are a group of deities in ancient Mesopotamian cultures.
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>>557475
socially average necessary labour time

fuck off and read Marx
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>>557533
That doesn't address the quote at all. Even Marx himself proposes a list of exceptions of things that obviously have a pricetag on them but are unrelated to labor, he just conveniently says they're not commodities. In other words he retcons the ever loving fuck out of his theory just to half assedly prevent it from falling apart.
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>>557532
That explains why ancient Mesopotamian cultures went extinct.
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>>557541
You know more about them then I do.
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>>557540
Except diamonds are a commodity and their price is readily explained through the production costs and OCC of diamond production.
>>
>>557559
Actually no, their price is defined by demand and scarcity, not by labor.
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>>557568
>defined
The Austrian, ladies and gentleman, believes that the world is a result of their cognition.
>>
Please stop confound value and price.
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>>557571
I'm sorry the real world doesn't bother to pander to your crackpot theories.
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>>557577
>Austrian appealing to empirical evidence
>>
>>557673
>quote a database of economic information
>this triggers the Austrian
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>>557689
It does actually, it is really amusing to watch them. The other nice thing is to continue politely talking with an austrian until they make the inevitable appeal to external reality to verify/falsify claims.
>>
>>554445
Right, but even if Ukraine could produce the food to feed the entire country (which is still difficult), there's a massive transportation problem. I'm not saying the geography was the only factor, but the Great Plains aren't the only food-producing region in the US, and they make up a much larger percentage of the land (excluding Alaska).
>>
>leftists telling themselves they are right

lmao, if only you people could take an economics class
>>
>>555225
Russia was on the verge of collapse by 1917. Whether it was the Bolsheviks or any other faction which took power, a civil war was inevitable.
>>
>>554424
>implying industrialization would not have occurred under a constitutional monarchy or republic
>implying either of the above would not have voided all of the listed threats
>>
>>553390
Well, actually the NEP happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy

I think this went well for China, no?
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>>557699
>lmao
>>>/wherever you came from/
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>>558230
>I think this went well for China, no?
Completely different. China had a much smaller urban proletariat and crushed it in 1989.
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>>553397
it's easy when you kill/starve/enslave half the population and the other half is happy becose the first one is having a bad time
>>
>>558285
Read Fitzpatrick and Andrle. They were happy because they were getting ahead.

For the Soviet urban proletariat the 1930s were awesome compared to the 1920s
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>>557761
still, it wasn't until the bolsheviks took the royal family and murdered it that shit broke completly loose.
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>>553941
>Communism actually works quite well in small communities that fully believe in the cause
and literally every time someone tried a large scale communist community it ended up bad and with totalitarism becose its impossible to keep it "working" without that and even with that there is still people beliveing a communist world can be achived.
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>>553390
Because Lenin was never given the time to lead The USSR in peacetime, we can never know how it might have turned out, if he'd lived.

Lenin is an inspiration because he swept aside the prior order, and tried to do something NEW.

He wasn't a coward in fear of change, he was a man of action, who knew that the mighty could only be brought to account at the tip of a bayonet.

I'm not a Marxist, but when the west collapses (and it will, perhaps in our lifetimes), I know the first thing on my agenda will be punishing those who held power and influence, for the failure of their order.

So, the rich, and the politically influential.
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>>558353
A sign of a weak man is one who hold hate and wants to exact revenge based on that hate.
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>>558299
Then don't try and scale it up, duh.

Let the little socialist societies live equitably, and don't try to over-centralize into a state body.

The main problem with this lifestyle is aggression from external forces being harder to deter without a powerful central state, but a strong militia-culture, and a sense of fanatical independance would prevent such a group of polities from being absorbed readily.

In fact, if you tried to set up a socialist enclave in modern Europe, (there are already communes that operate on socialist principals the world over) with enough people, the government would not be able to stop you, especially if you simply categorically refused as a group to acknowledge the authority of government agents in your territory.

In this way, you force them to either leave you alone, or use force, which will turn popular opinion against them, and give legitimacy to armed insurrection.
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>>558372
No, the sign of a weak man is that the objects of his hate persist.

You are confused by narrative ideas about how the world "should" work.

If men do evil without punishment, then they will do evil for all time.

The mark of the coward is that he allows evil to be done in his sight.
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>>553397
I hate this argument. You could put a monkey in charge of a free market economy and say that a century later.
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>>558432
>You could put a monkey in charge of a free market economy
The whigs, ladies and gentlemen.
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>>558438
This has nothing to do with inevitability, it has to do with centralized powers usurping responsibilities and taking credit (and blame) for things could've been done just as well on a private scale
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>>557673
>>557689
I'm not an Austrian m8. Could you strawman any harder?
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>>558389
It's not about size, it's about voluntarism. If the people DON'T WANT to live in socialism/communism (and believe me, vast majority doesn't), what are you going to do?
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>>558438
>a marxist complaining about whigs

You're the same shit.
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>>558863
>I'm not an Austrian m8.
>defined
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>>558871
I see you've not read Marx on "teleos".

Tell me MORE about what you've not read.
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>>558285
Ah, yes, Stalin killed LITERALLY HALF of the Soviet Population, that is, over 70 million people. This makes sense and is not the most retarded horseshit I have ever read about Russia.
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>>557540
>conveniently
It's not "convenient", it's pretty evident that the price of a good that can be re-produced will have a price that is related to production cost while the price of a good that can't will be determined in some other way. Even in neoclassical economics the supply curve is determined by production costs in one case and by preferences in the other.

>>558863
>I'm not an Austrian m8
Only internet austrians are retarded enough to think production isn't relevant in price determination, so if you think that "price is defined by demand and scarcity" you pretty much are.
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>there are people IN THIS FUCKING THREAD who actually think the Bolsheviks took power from the Czar and ended the Russian Empire

So fucking triggered right now
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>>553846
not him, but potemkin villages are a well known phenomenon... Ironically enough, when I read anglo-owned newspapers based in east asia from 1900-1920, they accused the japs of doing the same exact thing. John Dewey the philosopher also mentioned this in an article I happened to read.
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>>559544
Dewey was a philosophical Potemkin Village desu
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>>559559
Everything bad in today's educational system, every fault on any school in the western world, can be tracked back to fucking Dewey.
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>>559559
>>559571
I know I don't like Dewey necessarily, if what I've heard about his educational philosophy is true. But the article of his from 1920 that I read was spot on. I also found it interesting that he along with others accused Japanese of putting on a show for foreigners
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>>559364
it's nice to know people here can comprehend what they read with the same skill a 4yo can.
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>>559364
When you add in Barbarossa, a third of the remaining population disappeared too.

It's weird that the wehraboos rant about 'muh 60 gorillian' but then ALSO claim that the Soviets used human wave tactics, when their population was apparently smaller than Germany alones?
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