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>>588992353 /b/ros aren't against women/girls being gamers. They are against tumblr attention whores who CLAIM they are gamers but are much more into bitching about games made for high testosterone targets than actually playing games. That's the shit core cancer that /b/ hates.
Liberal feminists have become so entitled and gone so far off the deep end with their thought policing that they have generated a large backlash, that's only going to worse as long as the keep fucking squawking and pissing off more people with their ridiculous bitching
Personally, I like girl gamers, I love knowing that there are girls out there that share my interests, what I hate are attention whores, and games that lack any sort of depth and gameplay, namely those story games that are on steam made by all female developers. Girl gamers are great, the problem is when attention whores think that they can try this shit on to get attention, they then get all shitty when it doesn't work because we see how fake they really are.
A white male makes a kickstarter about wanting to investigate 'black culture' and how it's biased against white people. He asks for money so he can buy records, get BET and go to some black comedians.
He then goes on his little YouTube channel or Tumblr account and goes on and on about how all this media, that is not intended for him, not directed to him and frankly the creators figured they wouldn't get any money from him, isn't catering to his needs.
That's the 'protest' female gamer.
Then there's the attention whore, but frankly women suffer as much from attention whores as anyone, so you'll no doubt know what their deal is and why gamers hate it when suddenly someone has to announce their gender. You don't hear anyone going 'I'M A BLACK GAMER, GIVE ME ALL YOUR BIKES, LULZ KIDDING' or 'I AM ARAB, KEEP ME AWAY FROM PLANES, J/K'.
Women can play games all they like, just don't be entitled little attention whores about it.
"Gamer girls" seek to garner attention for as being a girl and incidentally being into games.. however a girl gamer is a gamer that just happens to be a girl - they don't flaunt it for attention. Kinda like a nerd who's a girl and a "nerd girl"...
>>588994546 Was looking for something in this thread that captured my thoughts on the situation. This is basically it. That and when these same girls then turn around and act like they've been doing it forever just because their brother had a PS2 that she never really played. I mean, I'm not some hipster douche bag that can't enjoy things when other people enjoy them if it was after I did it. However, they could learn to shut the fuck up and just play the game for awhile before raving on about how great Zelda and Mario are because they're "gamer gurlz"
>>588992353 i can't speak for everyone but if a grill wants to be catered to because she can name 2 video game titles, she deserves to be ridiculed and trolled for it.
if a girl genuinely enjoys games, she wont have to mention it in situations that dont call for it, just to get that "she's not like other girls"-vibe. she'll just shut her flapper and happily play for HERSELF and not because it makes her different.
>>588998012 >genuinely mad about feminism A lot of people don't even seem to have a clue what they're angry about or who it should be directed towards. The people that spout shit against women for the sake of attention are worse than the attention whores they claim to hate so much.
I don't really like replying to things like this seriously but for some reason I want to respond this time.
I am a feminist even though the word has pretty bad connotations because of some assholes who has no idea about what feminist theory is call themselves feminists. However I do write some shit about girl gamers if I think it's funny.
And I sort of like Sarkeesian. She gives bad examples from time to time but there is a lack of serious game criticism and especially feminist criticism. I think what she does will help vidya in the long run as more and more serious feminist critics arise and the previously mentioned assholes who think feminism should be female privilege will be weeded out.
I'm not, personally. It's just a fact that video games don't appeal to women as much as they do to men.
After the massive success of Space Invaders by Taito in Japan, Namco realised that it was almost entirely men that were playing it and women didn't seem interested. They put this down to the "shooting aliens" thing, and discerned that women weren't into it.
So they came up with Pac Man to try and appeal to both genders, since men and women both enjoy eating and there were no perceived "masculine" qualities about the game.
Even so, all the record holders for fastest Pac Man completion are all male.
Even Ms. Pac Man's world record holder is a black guy.
Games are designed and manufactured for the people who are known to want them. Just like if a guy wants to buy make-up, he's going to have to buy something designed for women. Make-up generally does not appeal to guys so it isn't marketed towards them. Although I would argue that men who enjoy make-up are treated a lot worse by the general public than women who like games.
>>588998801 you realize you're just confirming his image, right?
here's the solution if women want video games to change: 1. provide a market large enough to justify the expense of making high quality vidya. 2. make games that satisfy whatever it is you have a problem with. 3. ???? 4. Profit.
Why are you a "girl gamer"? Is the term "gamer" not good enough for you? We welcome you to the kingdom we built with open arms, and you insist on making a little hut for yourself right outside the gate and say "I'm a part of your group, too!" You demand to be welcomed as one of us, all the while screaming for equality in gaming, yet you segregate yourself? You want equality, and at the same time, require you be separated? I am not a "guy gamer." Leave your gender at the door, or go smother another community with it.
Anyone who claims to be a girl gamer is attempting to destroy our community. My girlfriend is not a girl gamer. Girls gamer is the equivalent of the term femanon. Bullshit spouted by people who don't understand the reason behind the original term in the first place.
>>589000489 >>589001442 In fact I'll say mostly about the entire gamer gate situation I haven't vocalized pretty much anything. I think this is one of the first times I'm actually expressing any form of resentment and I'm doing so in a reasonable fashion. I don't hate women/girls who play video games as I'm sure most don't. What I do dislike is (some girls) their approach on video games and it's community. They're trying to turn the market into another media to get attention/fame through. Look at Anita Sarkeesian and tell me she isn't in this to get famous, she went on Colbert for Christ's sake. It's all an attention/money grab for them.
Meh I'm gonna give my 2cts about that For having had a lot of discussion on the subject the problem is not that there are some sexists games, its that nearly all games, especially mainstream ones are sexist even when it does not serve the history/setting. I mean I dont expect progressive vision of women in Leisure suit harry or duke nukem, they are sexist in some ways but its okay its actually part if the universe of these games and you gottabe a retard tumble feminazi to complain against it. The problem is that in video games, and geek culture in general, sexist prejudices are so deeply rooted that the pervade to everything else for no good reason/artistic choice.
So pointing out this tropes to help us and developer realize what and where they are should help them avoid them when they are not needed. That's basically sarseekian doing but I reckon she's not great about it.
>tldr it's okay to have hustler and playboy, but when every other mainstream magazine treat woman this way you have a problem
>>588992353 because women/girl gamers are against /b/. Most of /b/ is rational and would probably get along with most girl gamers who don't believe in all the anita sarkeesian garbage, but the reputation from spergelords and betas tend to keep them away.
>>589002111 I think what you don't understand is that gamers who are female have had to come out and say "yes there are girls who play video games" if they hope to ever have equal representation in games. If you haven;t noticed, a lot of people here are either going on about how "girls never used to play video games," or "there is not a market of female gamers big enough to justify change," etc.
Of course you don't have to come out and say "I'm a guy gamer," but guess what? Games are already catered to you! Your girlfriend is one hundred percent a girl who is a gamer, and therefor a girl gamer. It is not a figment of female imagination that most games don;t have a female lead, or that many game choose to objectify only female sexuality instead of men's as well.
"There are no girl gamers!" "But wait, I'm a girl gamer..." "ATTENTION WHORE!" See how that's kind a catch 22? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
>>589003020 How is she a cunt? She gave her assessment on what she saw in the industry and everyone gets their shorts twisted. She didn't make shit up. She isn't saying that people should stop playing games and to stop enjoying them. Yet everyone seems threatened.
>>588992353 Because none exist. A real gamer doesn't brag about the fact that they are gamers and they also don't spend more time comaining about the industry than actually playing games. The famous girl gamers do these things and that is why they are complete fruads
>>589003254 No, you don't understand my post. What I'm trying to say is that the term girl gamer is stupid. A girl gamer is like femanon. Femanon is stupid because it puts useless emphasis on the female part, partially destroying their anonymity and distancing themselves from anon, whose entire point is to be all-inclusive. Girl gamer separates them from a regular gamer, destroying the community that at this point, we severely need. There are girls who are gamers. There are girl gamers too, but they're not part of our community.
>>589003254 Not the poster you replied to and I see your point about the industry catering towards men. Men are still the majority even if their are women playing. This isn't because content has prevented women from wanting to play, it's because women aren't as likely to play so the content is not directed towards them. I do think it's unrealistic to put women in skimpy clothes (in specific games where everyone else is coated in armor) and that's about the only point I'll agree with. If women would like to have more games catered towards them, there should be more active female devs who aren't making a point to bash male devs/gamers... and there are, but they're not producing games. They need to produce the kind of games they want to see. Then if there are indeed women who want to play these games, they will succeed and make money.
>>589000489 you are an insane fuckwit that would probably be unable to tell a difference between a sandwich and a boot. Nobody's threatening women, because nobody gives a shit what's between their legs. This is why bitches who can't stop shoving their pussies in people's faces by always putting the word "girl" in front of "gamer" whenever they get the chance pisses everyone off so much. Fuck you and your identity politics you miserable fucking shitheel.
>>589002205 the most egregious women-shaming and objectification of women in magazines occurs in magazines aimed at women, usually published by women. example: cosmopolitan. Find me 1 cover of Cosmo that doesn't try to convince women they are too fat, ugly, or can't fuck their man well enough.
>>589001745 Make up is marketed toward women but the product isn't inherently gender specific. You don't have to stick it in your vagina to get makeup to work ( neither do video games) but they aren't sexualizing the makeup in anyway or using imagery of hot guys to push it onto women.
Also women aren't as competitive as men. So yea.... They wouldn't be playing for high scores and women prefer games with more of a social component. Just because women aren't posting a shit load of high scores doesn't mean they aren't playing.
>>589003254 This guy does bring up some good points. But there's a difference between a female audience announcing that they're there and that they maybe want some games to acknowledge that, and SJW gamers going around labeling every game in existence as sexist and harmful to women à la Anita Sarkesian.
>>589004011 She did lie about what she was using the money for. She exaggerates a lot of points that can be spun back the same way. IE; victimization of women in video games. Which then implies men are never acted violently against in video games and women are always the victims. I don't know if she's actually played any video games but there is a ton of male against male or female against male violence.
Because feminism is a lost cause that's been warped by hysterical women on tumblr who get look for things to be upset about rather than things to progress equality as they say they do. Plus the very word itself is at odds with the message, equality for all. Wouldn't humanist be a better term than feminist?
>>589001745 Alright I agree with you but it goes beyond that.
Let's imagine that you live in an all black country and whites are the minority. Let's now imagine that black really really enjoy the idea of shooting white people and raping white girls. They don't actually do it but they have these fantasies. Now every game features the black hero killing white men at some point or white men being game. Even in Tyrone Kart, Watermelon Effect or the legend of Zakeesha. Because as black are the main public they want these games to catter to their needs and prejudice. And now every other medium, movie, or comic has the same stereotype, like captain kirk yelling let's hunt them klingon like dey are some pussy crackas. Or adds for a food company for thanksgiving depicting white men tied like turkey "even tastier than fresh whiteboi"
Wouldn't you be concerned? Wouldn't it bother you that maybe this gneralization and over prevalence of this stereotype is breeding generation of people with this idea of white man rooted in their head? That the over repetition only reinforce this prejudice?
Of course they tell you not to worry little cracka, its just jokes. You should check your vanilla level in your blood cause you're getting histeric now. And if you want medium without hunted white man just be a large enough audience!
Of course its exagerrated and absurd but I think you got my point
>>589004877 I agree with what you're saying, but here's the thing. Take this thread for example. We are a few people being vocal about our opinions, so we're the only ones that are heard, and our opinions are projected on those who are silent. Because of this, that small percentage is seen as much larger than it really is. It's the reason why Youtube comment sections are so toxic, because only the passionate comment.
>>589004225 Oh, I understood your point just fine. What you are refusing to accept is the fact this "community" needs change and is absolutely NOT "all-inclusive."
You're not even speaking to any of my points. It's like you put your fingers in your ears and started shouting "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!"
Girls who are gamers are forced to speak up if they ever hope to see a female lead they can relate to in their favorite game, or get the ability to beat up male prostitutes wearing g-strings in video games (haha okay maybe this is a little ridiculous, but I hope you see my point).
>>589004300 Trying to say that you can't make a game that will appeal to both men and women is quite frankly, silly. It's not that women don't like to play the same types of games. Guys and girls all have different tastes, and it is not skewed by gender in relation to games. Why can't female gamers voice their desires to be equally represented in games? Why should it be fair that the male characters are aways fleshed out, strong, and witty, and the female charters are usually there to stand around and look pretty? Of course this isn;t the case for every game, but it is true more often than not.
I'm not saying there are not the female gamers out there who are maybe looking for attention, but to say that is the majority is naive and crazy. That would be like saying all male gamers are 200lbs overweight and sit in their mother's basement eating cheetos and drinking mountain dew all day. We both know that isn't true.
It's been necessary for women to announce themselves as gamers because people seem to not want to believe they exist, and they are using that as an excuse for why strong female leads shouldn't be developed.
>>588994546 >games made for high testosterone targets I'm sorry, what? You can't actually be serious... Are you? I hope you realise that no developer has testosterone in mind when making a game and there is no such thing as a "high testosterone targeted audience".
>>589006473 I don't know about "feminism" as an acting unit. Is that like how /b/ does things? Because we are all one organism? what I do know is if women want to complain about how they are portrayed, they need to stop feeding us that image themselves. Women complain about a man telling them they are hot because it "objectifies" them. But every time I hear my sister, my future sister-in-law, her friends, etc, on the phone with another woman, the conversation inherently falls into 3 categories: how they or someone else are fat and unattractive, some girl is a bitch and loud and shallow, and is only that way because she can't get a man so she acts like a slut, or how they need new makeup/shoes/purse/etc.
You can't complain about guys not giving a girl respect when don't give her either.
>>589005573 >Of course its exagerrated and absurd but I think you got my point
Exactly the point. You realise most games are pretty peaceful, and don't do anything against women. GTA, this big sexist game? You kill more men in it than women. Name one game that is specifically aimed at killing or raping women
>>589006662 I don't anyone actually thinks female gamers don't exist. It seems to me that it's mostly a joke at this point much like how there "aren't any girls on the internet". It's hyperbole intended for the sake of humor. I think there are too many people who actually think that developers and gamers actually think that women don't play. What I will say is that not as *many* women play as men play. Which is a cold, hard fact. Yes, games can cater to men and women both and they're usually RPGs that let you choose your sex. If the issue is main characters/conflict/story that caters to both, that's more difficult. If the developer wants to tell a specific story in a specific way, they should not be limited in choice. So, this is why I say if there is a demand for female leads, female centered stories... Then there should be devs who make these games and if it's a success then they will make money and continue to cater towards this market as well.
>>589005131 She never said men aren't acted upon violently in games. However she makes a distinction between the way that women get targeted because of their gender and specifically for their gender not so much cause they are a "bad guy". You also need to look at the type of characters that are dispatched violently when it comes to women as well. When men are dealt with violently they are typically bad people or warriors, people with some sort of agency or who are in the line of fire. When women are offed in games or are dealt with violently they are normally nothing more than women, who are just girlfriends or some stupid bimbo whose only purpose is to die within the first hour of the game. They don't even get to become real characters, they just exist to be a sexual object and to die. The violence caused against them is sometimes sexualizd or fetishized.
this of course doesn't apply for every game but it happens alot and it never happenes to men.
Also there is one thing that really bother me in the whole debate.
Why is it always considered that making less sexist games will make them less good or that it would be "cattering to the need of women". I mean is it really that important to us that every game we play objectify women?
I get than back when vg where made for and by asocial nerds laughed upon, they had some frustrations and vented them in vidyagames or by having a sexy elf character in their weekly d&d.
But now a day? I don't think the alien movies are less good because the lead is a strong female character not defined by her relation to other males. I played Mass Effect as femshep and it was pretty sweet to have my badass renegade Sheppard kick some reaper ass. And would ME3 have been a less good games if some of the female armors weren't so revealing/tight and more realistic like the rest of the game?
>There have always been male and female dominated hobbies >Gaming has always been dominated by Men >Women decide to take part in the hobby >immediately start demanding the entire industry change to suit their needs, while insulting every single male gamer along the way >cry when there's a backlash
>>589008034 >Update yeah, I do. The difference is, I try to get rid of it in general. Most "feminists" I know just want to get rid of the parts they don't like.
you want equality? Are you protesting your local bar because it has ladies night where girls get cheaper drinks so men can ogle them? No? Is it because WOOHOO!! CHEAP DRINKS!! ?
I can easily hate discrimination and work against it, without having to support dumb bitches saying they are worth just as much as a man while they try to put on eyeliner while driving and talking on their phone.
they are worth exactly the same as a retarded, stupid man. Not all men.
>>589008147 Once again, I reinforce my point that this same example can be spun back the other way. There are many male victims that are killed for the sake of being killed and not just "warriors" or bad people. I'm not entirely sure how the violence against them is sexualized or fetishized in any way unless you're actually into that kind of stuff and noticing it. Which then says a lot about Sarkeesian that she's taking violence into a sexual context.
>attention whores >games I don't like should not be made >all made games should be made the way I want >I am tolerant but disagree with me and you're a sexist >crowdfund my stupid shit seriously give me the money
>>589007621 Women don't project that image more so the way companies project that cause its more profitable. They all done in every medium they are bombarded with this message to act a certain way because it reinforces their tendency to buy more stupid shit.
>>589007942 >> If the issue is main characters/conflict/story that caters to both, that's more difficult. If the developer wants to tell a specific story in a specific way, they should not be limited in choice.
This really shouldn't be that difficult.
And I think maybe you aren't understanding how dominated popular studios are by men. It's not as easy as being like "Welp, just go make your own game, women!" "Just go ahead and quickly become a popular AAA game studio and create a mega game so you can play one you are represented in! Us boys will keep making games that are driven my a male protagonist because thats the story WE want to tell!" Tell me that doesn't sound at least a little ridiculous to you...
Additionally, why would a little girl grow up wanting to be a game designer when she never sees a character she can relate to in games? "If you build it, they will come"
>>589006662 I never said they shouldn't speak up. I'm saying that using a term other than gamer is harmful to the community. You are not a girl gamer, you are a gamer who is a girl. If you find something wrong with the industry, speak up, shout about it from the rooftops. But calling yourself a girl gamer will only cause you to be labeled as girl before gamer and thus be put in a category that would have you playing Barbie Dreamhouse. The reason (at least partially) it's not all-inclusive is because girls who are gamers trying to stand out of the crowd to get developers to recognize them, and by doing so, are labeling themselves and being segregated. I don't like the term "girl gamer." That was pretty much my point.
However, realistically, what percentage of the community /is/ female? Honest question.
>>588992353 I have no problems with girls who play video games. its the ones that make a big deal about playing them or the ones that try to change established franchises instead of hunting down new games that don't piss them off (if those even exist)
>>588992353 It comes down to the fact that a handful of women have made legitimate female gamers look bad.
Anita for instance is trying to push a political agenda on A FUCKING HOBBY that has been up until recently male dominated. She's not just trying to get women involved but make men feel shame.
She is a liar. She has (self admittedly) no interest in gaming, she's doing it for her own financial benefit.
I personally don't give a shit whether I'm playing with men or women, but it irritates the fuck out of me that some group of people want an entire hobby's community to change because their feelings are hurt and they feel left out.
more like you don't understand basic story telling and market demographics.
Men don't want a soap/melodrama, women do. This is why networks shoehorn stuff into primetime shows like Walking Dead.
You get just enough gore and violence to keep men interested while fagging up the show with bullshit relationship stuff.
Games are a bit different in that they depend on being fun. If you alienate your core audience by shoehorning in gays/bi's/trannies it fills the game with aids instead of decent competent story telling
>>589008655 I feel like you still are understanding... Institutionalized sexism affects both men and women. And it affects the way men think about women, but also how women think about and treat other women. Of course it has to be a group effort. The way women interact with each other is a product of sexism.
Everyone is hurt by sexism...men, women and everything in between. It is not nearly as black and white as you are trying to make it.
>>589007883 But feminism not being what it was in the first and second waves does not make its point null. I did say in my post that it has been corrupted to serve a stupid agenda.
What most people who identify themselves as feminists talk about giving women more power within patriarchy even though the point should be to replace it with equality. I don't believe the pussification of the male is really a feminist stance as much as it is a patriarchal stance. Women who get to reach positions of power in modern society have to act like men because the positions of power were designed to be held by men. So what feminists should be targeting is the system, not who it's run by.
And by the way, right now we are talking about middle class, white women who call themselves feminists. Shit are still pretty archaic for working class minorities.
Why aren't more people in the modelling world men? I think the current modelling set up is oppressive to men and that there need to be major modelling events that cater to men despite very few men giving a shit about modelling.
>>589009086 I think you're taking a lot of what I posted out of context. I'm not saying that every dev has to make a testosterone drenched game, but they also shouldn't be forced to create a story that they don't personally want to create. If they don't want to make a story with a female lead who's off saving Prince Needy then they shouldn't have to. If this is actually as big of an issue as Sarkeesian and other feminist gamers say it is, then they are welcome to enter the field and make it.
Secondly, the games they make don't automatically have to be a AAA game. Big things have small beginnings and if they're not willing to put in the work then it says what they really think about the industry. This is still an equal opportunity country and they shouldn't get a free pass to the top just because they dislike a certain industry's direction.
The answer to that last question is that if she actually has a drive and passion for the industry that's what should get her involved. Not how she can relate to a character. I have a drive to be involved and I don't relate to pretty much any character. Does that mean I shouldn't be involved?
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