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>>583816537 How do you explain all the other far more ancient worlds cults containing large portions of the scriptures you attest to have been written after the time of your messiah, and the well recorded and well understood history of those cults warring for centuries before having their wacky cults mashed up into the official Roman state religion, which you now think of as literal?
Shyit, OP. Even in Egypt, Akhenaten's own followers had the good sense to realize what a cultural fuckup monotheism was and drive the fucking psycho jews out instead of letting them back in the empire, & undo the entire ideology.
You picked a poor worldview to jump on, OP. It was shitty 2300 years ago, and it's still shitty today.
Why do you think would god want to be observed and worshipped, it appears that he acts like he doesn't want to be blamed for most acts, we are the only living thing that prays, how do you know god isn't a lie?
How do you explain the retold stories in the bible (i.e. stuff that this thread on this website, http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/pda/thread.php?topic_id=11032, or other books, I'm familiar with the jesus paper not this website but the content is the same)
I'm not an athiest, I just don't think that organized religion is right. You don't have to prove gods existance to me, I'm asking for you to prove that the way you believe in him is right.
>>583818347 >Why do you think would god want to be observed and worshipped He tells it through the prophets throughout the whole Bible.
>it appears that he acts like he doesn't want to be blamed for most acts Maybe, could be truth. He might want the people to take responsibility for their acts, given the fact that He gave people the free will.
>how do you know god isn't a lie? You don't. None of us do.
>How do you explain the retold stories in the bible It makes them either more unbelievable (by suspicion that they've been copied) or more believable (by seeing them as confirmations of what really happened).
>I'm asking for you to prove that the way you believe in him is right Can't do that. Faith in something that is abstract cannot be proved right (or wrong).
>>583818359 >I bet you don't even go to Church. Christianity isn't about going to church every Sunday.
>>583818595 Again, Cain and Abel weren't the only children that Adam and Eve had. There's either no passage in Bible that says that Adam and Eve were the ONLY people created by God (they were just the first ones), in fact, there probably were many more people, and maybe even in organised societies "out of the box".
>>583818201 Technically, in Christianity, ghosts aren't rekd by any catholic texts, but by the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit. If the person (the exorcist) has been blessed by the Holy Spirit, then he would probably have the power to rekt the demon.
"Hey, Dave, I was asleep, what's going on?" "Oh, sup Joey, you won't believe it, you know Eve?" "Yeah, spends all her time with that tool Adam." "So like she talked to a snake and convinced Adam to eat the forbidden fruit" "No way" "And YHWH is like super mad" "Reasonable, we have literally one rule here" "And he's kicking us all out of the garden" "Yeah, I-d do the -- Wait, all of us?!" "Yep." "What?!" "Totally sucks." "I didn't do anything!" "Better get some clothes, we're also not doing nudity anymore." "Fucking Adam and Eve." "Yeeep."
>>583820135 The Bible doesn't say that they >only< have sons. Yes, incest is an option, but, like I said, they weren't the only people that could have been created by God, they were only the first ones.
>Also, why the Bible? Why not the Torah, or Koran, or Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon, or the Dhammapada It's up to you to check them all and find the one that suits you best. Or you can ignore it and be an atheist, it's up to you.
>>583820159 Actually it was said about the Earth that saved Christians are supposed to go in their afterlife (some kind of an Earth 2.0 with their Bodies 2.0). But that still depends of the interpretation of said passage.
>>583820727 I answered you. It was you who asked a question that was actually a presupposition. No passage in Bible says that Adam and Eve only had sons, and your question was "if they only had sons, how they became grandparents?"
Exactly. If God is the truth and people are constantly learning about God, why are there always more and more different versions of Christianity? There's like 20,000 different sects. In something based on reality, more study brings ideas closer together. They reason why ideas about God keep splintering is that they are based on imagination.
>>583822298 >And why is it that Christians always say praise Jesus? Why can't they just say praise God? Christians overwhelmingly worship Jesus. They say overwhelmingly say praise Jesus.
That's mostly Protestants, though. I come from an Eastern Orthodox country and that surprised the hell out of me too when I first visited the States. It's like God the Father doesn't exist with evangelicals.
Even if you write off Adam and Eve as a parable, which most sects of Christianity would never do, there's certainly no explanation for Noah and his sons.
The bible explicitly states Noah had three sons, and they repopulated the earth. No other humans survived. So according to the bible were all inbred from the first cousins of these assholes fucking each other.
If you dismiss the tale of Noah too, why be fucking Christian at all? If you don't believe in anything in the bible, why follow it?
I'm catholic but Adam and Eve, as well as Noah's Arc is straigh bullshit, holy fucking shit, even 90% of the bible is nothing but fiction, maybe because it was written by scribes and not god like many people think it was.
Jesus used to suck goat cocks and he loved goat jizz...true story I read it in this really old book so I know it's true because I believe in it ..rumor has it he has a son that is half goat and half boy
>>583822298 Jesus was the Son of God that was foretold by prophets. And in His teachings, He said "No one can come to the Father except through me" - Jesus became sort of gateway between people and God and He set the New Covenant so that their sins could be forgiven again, after ages of doing bad things.
>>583822945 >If you dismiss the tale of Noah too, why be fucking Christian at all? If you don't believe in anything in the bible, why follow it?
Two old testament stories don't = Bible.
A lot of mainline Protestants, and even some more liberal Catholics and Orthodox generally view most of that stuff as Jewish folklore, or the equivalent of Aesop's fables - stories created to teach us stuff.
Really all you need to be Christian is believe there's a God, he's three people, one of them is sometimes a dove, the other was human for a while but died, and you should follow Jesus's teachings to the best of your ability/knowledge.
Bear with me here, this is a long complex question and I want you to fully comprehend the weight of it before you try and answer.
If Christianity were the one true religion, and your god is the true god, your pope the true leader, and your doctrines are truly the unambiguous word of your god, how come orange socket wrenches fall out of my pet dolphodragon's ass when bruce lee puts on a huggies diaper over his friday clown suit?
12 tribes of sandniggers are released into the desert.
here comes Islam and Judaism -- Christianity slumps behind and just adapts most of the major traditions of the Romans, add a li'l ignorance and a couple of 1000 years of war and immigration.. WALLAH! Religion for all you intolerant faggots!
congrats OP, you're a dumbass like every other exclusive monotheist on this earth.
>>583823569 >A lot of mainline Protestants, and even some more liberal Catholics and Orthodox generally view most of that stuff as Jewish folklore, or the equivalent of Aesop's fables - stories created to teach us stuff. I'm a protestant and indeed, I have a similar view.
you're using terrible logic to argue. you can't say that god said or did anything so that doesn't prove that jesus meant anything. you just sound like an idiot. what you're doing is "begging the question" and it's considered retarded and pompous.
>>583822826 >God the Father >splitting God into parts >multiple Gods >no longer monotheistic religion >violates old testament Christfags, just accept you wiped your ass with the old testament. Hence, you worship Jesus. Hence, you worship a dead human. Hence, you're all as retarded as the muslims.
instead of me trying to prove your god doesn't exist, how about you disprove my god? Surely if you believe your god is the correct and holy one, there cannot be another. So, disprove my imaginary invisible walrus man who sometimes grants your wishes.
A being that defines all definitions, something you can't possibly conceive, hence the Christian saying, you shall not make an image out of him.
So far I'm all yours.
But then you proceed to put infinitely big eternal God into a tiny human person, call him Jesus, and claim to know what he was all about, what he wants or doesn't want for us, what his personal likes and dislikes are and so on, down to very specific details..
Jesus/God doesn't want us to wear garments made out of polyester and cotton. Wait, what? How would you know? Because it is written somewhere in a ancient text that got edited and translated again and again, usually to fit the current dogma of a man made institution like the church?
I don't even.. why do you do this? Isn't it just a tad bit arrogant to think that you know so much about God, and just a tad bit insulting to put him down like that, rip him from the divine heavens cramming him into some homeless Jewish bum that supposedly roamed the desert thousands of years ago?
>>583819164 >how do you know god isn't a lie? You don't. None of us do.
THAT IS IT! Isn't it. Isnt' that completely IT???? NONE OF US KNOW. we really, really do not know. We know that if I eat, I will not be hungry. but we know NOTHING about God.
So I'm not asking you why christianity. I'm not even saying why not all the 9 billion other gods.
I'm just asking you, why do you believe? You just admitted to not knowing the truth. Why do you go about your daily life thinking something to be true, while knowing full well you, or anybody else, couldn't possibly know? Because I'm at the same position. I agree, nobody knows. We're all just kinda, eating and shitting and organizing, like animals. Because we are, indeed, animals. Why, and how do you take the step from "we literally don't know anything" to "the bible was sent from God to humanity." Why don't you stop at "we do not know anything?" Why not stop at admitting the fact that we literally occupy less than 50% of earth's land, and we haven't even discovered the depths of the oceans, let alone the depths of space. Our greatest accomplishment is that we went to the nearest THING. Literally, THING. We went to the moon. While there is an infinity of space. And now we're planning to go to Mars, literally, the nearest planet. We know and have discovered less than 0.0000000000000000000001% of space. We haven't even fully discovered earth! There are sooooooo many mysteries, lying infinitely in all aspects of science and philosophy. Everybody has an opinion, but nobody knows which opinion is true.
How is yours any closer to truth? Why do you think so? Why are you christian? How do you not see that this is completely due to how you were raised, similar to cultural beliefs and customs??
>>583818158 LOL you must have watched Zeitgeist. The bible says the earth is round and hangs upon nothing. and that man will ruin the earth, no one can disagree that is happening today. What could they have ruined the earth with 2000 years ago? fire?
>>583825010 If you assume that everything that the Bible says is pure fiction, how do I argue with you on a normal level? Why would you even bother to start asking questions? There's no logic, because your approach deny any logic.
>>583825063 The Old Covenant was being violated by Jews for ages, so the God sent Jesus (as a semi-god, you could say) to create the New Covenant and set the new rules -- actually, more like clues on "how to be a good person" -- for the people. The Law from the Old Testament was meant only for Jews, and not all Christians are Jews, so much of the Old Testament don't apply anymore - like the celebration of Sabbath.
Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart to teach him a lesson that he was forced to experience regardless of his intentions then killed a bunch of babies just to prove a point? Why did Herod do it in the New Testament but was a complete asshole? Check and mate.
>>583822298 Jesus=God=Holy Spirit. The best way to think of them is different aspects of the same entity. See my wedge example farther down in this reply. That said, the majority of the 'Christians' who say 'praise Jesus' and pray to Jesus instead of God are usually the same people that believe in literal creationism. Also, see >>583823562 because this guy seems like he knows what he's talking about.
>>583822945 Most of the Bible is parables, and those portions that are not were retold from memory for hundreds if not thousands of years before being written down. The exact numbers may be off, but the general point of the texts remains.
Likewise, with regards to Adam and Eve, the Bible states that they were the first. It does not state that they were the only.
>>583823569 That summary is so freaking vague and mildly inaccurate. A better phrasing is "There is one God. He created all of the perceptible universe, including humanity, and set rules for humanity to live by. He sent Himself to Earth, in the form of a man named Jesus, to remind humanity of the rules he set, and provide clarification as to what they meant.
>>583825063 Not multiple parts. Think of God as a wedge, represented in a 3D Cartesian coordinate system. When viewed from the ends of the x-axis, the wedge appears to be a square. When viewed from the ends of the y-axis, the wedge appears to be a circle. When viewed from the ends of the z-axis, the wedge appears to be a triangle. Similarly, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are just different views of the same entity.
>>583825509 The Crusades happened during a dark period in the history of the Catholic Church, a period in which even the leaders of the Church were acting out of greed.
>>583825509 Crusades were done by people who weren't Christians. They were just people blinded by catholic heads who were corrupt as fuck. Please, don't confuse catholics with Christians, they don't have that much in common as catholics would like them to.
>>583826138 Because he is my god and I feel his presence. I FEEL that my walrus god is different from OP's god. You must not enough faith to perceive him See? See how you can't debate religious people? It's like debating a mentally retarded person. When confronted with logic or rhetoric, they will retreat behind faith or some abstract feeling that they can easily diverge with. There is literally no point.
>>583818347 Im not OP but the bible instruction is not to "forsake the gathering of yourselves together" . First and Second century christians were required to worship together. The bible tells us that the world is "lying in the power of the wicked one" 1 John 5:19 and the god does not try anyone James 1:13
I am a lutheran which is a lot more logical in my opinion. God has created people, but we are deeply flawed. We will always disobey the rules set by the holy one because we lust for what we cannot have. God sees what he has created and sends his son Jesus. Jesus tries to help humanity but ends up being killed by them. Basically, if you dont believe in god you will be forgiven because you WANT to think that there is a scientific answer. You WANT this reality but you will never HAVE it. You will never have it because the idea of a big bang has even more holes in the theory than creation.
>>583826237 Such is faith. We believe, even though we know there will never be proof for, or against, the existence of God. >>583826952 Similarly to how I, by definition, will never be able to prove the existence of my God, I am unable to disprove your invisible walrus man. That said, I still believe that my God is the only God.
>>583821857 >And maybe to straighten some ignorants' "knowledge That part right there. It's not exactly your jorb to straighten out ignorance. I'm not being rude about this either, I'm just stating it as it is.
>>583826532 >That summary is so freaking vague and mildly inaccurate
Yes, anon. Because "one of them is sometimes a dove" is a clear indicator that I was was approaching this topic with full seriousness.
You can't really summarize Christianity into one sentence, because different sects focus on different things. For example, you focus on rules. A Baptist might focus on salvation or a personal relationship with God. A Catholic might focus on ecclesiastic structure or sacraments. Etc.
But generally "God, made everything, three people, one of them was a guy named Jesus, you should do what he said" is a decent summary.
>>583826532 So you're equating the interactions of God to projections of a high dimensional space into a low dimensional manifold? You're ripping off beautiful mathematical theory in order to backwards justify a concept that is clearly illogical? God would not choose such a retarded representation. If there is in fact a God, and he chose your retarded trinity representation, then I've just up and lost all respect for Him.
I agree with this, but the logic is that through his death, he absolved mankind's sins and saved our souls.
So for those who believe that, the cross is a symbol of God's benevolence (he willingly died for us) and their hope (after I die, I go to Heaven because God absolved me through Jesus's sacrifice). Besides, it wasn't the symbol in early Christianity, they used the fish sign. I don't know when the cross came into prominence.
Why did Jesus have to die to save our souls? Couldn't God have done it anyway? That I cannot tell you.
>>583827378 Why does god saying you're special actually mean you're special? Why does the universe have to be about us as people because a book says so? How many more civilizations do we need to aim to build churches and followers instead or finding ways towards cleaner water, a better lightbulb or something good for that world that doesn't demand emotional and philosophy baggage no one can claim to verify or really agree on?
>>583816537 Child's play. I once converted a fellow Christian to atheism. Then I converted myself to atheism, just to convert him back. Finally, a couple of days ago, I convinced him to kill himself. He's doing it tomorrow. Boy is he in for a surprise.
Enjoy your beliefs and rituals, if they are real to you. I don't care. They don't affect me. I will forget you and this thread in less than 5 minutes. You may die in that time and I don't care. You are nothing, whether you are Christian or Buddhist or Atheist or not. We are all but specks of stardust on a small grain of rock orbiting an average star among billions of stars in an average galaxy among billions of galaxies.
it's like schrödingers cat experiment saying it could either be alive or dead inside a box and the only way to know is to open it. Same for the there being a God or there is no god and the only way to know is to be dead. I'm putting my bet with god because if I'm right I go to heaven if I'm wrong nothing happens, if an atheist is wrong he goes to hell if he's right nothing happens.... Pretty much seems like you're screwing yourself out of a easy immortality
If you want to live free and be a hedonist, at least go full Epicurean.
Calling yourself a Satanist without being a Devil-worshipping cultist is literally tween-brags-about-sex awkward tier.
You're that insecure you build your religious identity on provoking mainstream religions, but only halfway cause you're not really into Hell on Earth and scary rituals, and only call yourself that to literally be edgy.
>>583827692 I wasn't trying to convince you, merely to provide the correct answer to your question. You have every right to disagree with me.
>>583828281 >for, or against This is the key. We can't prove we're right, and you can't prove we're wrong. If God created all perceptible dimensions, God by definition cannot be contained within or represented on them.
>>583828774 It's not 'like' debating an opinion, it IS debating an opinion.
>>583827752 Surely you agree that if God created all of perceptible dimensions, then he must exist outside of said dimensions.
>>583829184 In one universe among a potentially infinite number of universes.
This is a bullshit lie and you know it. The bible states the sons by name, and specifies 3 exactly. There's no fucking discrepancy. Why can't you admit your God wanted first cousins to fuck and repopulate the planet? You can still be shithouse crazy about Jesus, you just need to be in favor of incest.
>>583827378 >>583828620 Amd here comes the butt hurt faggot who can't accept everyone is different and has differemt views. Fuck off man.
And plus i wlays say, there's no reason not to believe in God. If you belive and live a religious life, then you go to his kingdom and all is well. If he isnt real oh well you still have better morals.
But if he is real and you don't belief and you want to fight against him and object to him, you get to spend eternity in hell. The only reason people are atheists is to start arguements. Respect everyone and.stop beimg edgy.
>>583828850 And what makes you think the criteria for getting into heaven is believing in God?
Assuming he's not some insecure faggot who needs attention and praise to feel good about himself, which kind of is a given speaking of an almighty creator.
Maybe he values critical thought above all other things and only nice atheists go to heaven, maybe he values someone who is a good person simply because it's good to be good, and not someone who is only acting nice out of hope for personal gain in heaven or out of fear of eternal hell and torture? Anyone who seriously believes in heaven and hell will behave nice, even hitler would, that doesn't make him a good person..
So maybe he thinks you are a faggot who can't think for yourself and is only looking out for his own personal well being, instead of taking a chance and actually do what is right, not because it is written somewhere, but because it is the right thing to do? Like not hating on homosexuals and treating them like human beings deserving of the same rights as you are.. for example.
>>583828771 then how do you account for us being absolutely unique throughout the entire detectable universe? there isn't even a single celled organism anywhere but earth. my question is rhetorical because anyone that draws the conclusion you have is full of lies and i don't need any more of your arrows of lies
I'm just giving a logical standpoint to show why I'm Christian. I believe in all the moral concepts and believes but that was to convey a message to atheist who really don't care about many of the issue apposed by the Bible
>>583816537 i prefer to learn about the world through science with out catering to an all powerful deity, i don't have proof that there is no god, and you dont have proof that there is a god, it is a debate that is at a stalemate before it begins. i have the upmost respect for the religious community but i know that it's not for me thought?
Because whats the point of doing good things if you don't give a shit what happens. If I was atheist I would probably be in jail right now because moral values wouldnt mean anything. If I knew it didnt matter what I did in life and there was no consequence or reward in my afterlife I wouldn't take the easy way in life and try to be the best I can be
>>583816537 I am a Satan worshiper. A noble servant to the dark lord Lucifer. He will rise again, and smite down all who oppose him. Now how about you just go crawl back into your youth minister's asshole, and start reciting scripture to try to rid the "evil" is in my heart as well as yours. Because you know that your "god" has no real power compared to the Almighty so-called "false accuser" WILL RISE. HAIL SATAN! 666
>>583831020 i think that the issue comes when people start bitching about things that we have learned through science, (such as evolution) that doesn't care what religious doctrine teaches. this is the issue that tends to get me a bit more pissy
>>583829575 >Surely you agree that if God created all of perceptible dimensions, then he must exist outside of said dimensions. No, I absolutely do not.
I have a fundamental problem with you believers justifying the physics. I have a fundamental problem with an entity which gets to interact with the physical universe when it wants to, but gets to exist outside of it and not interact with it when it wants to. That would imply all of our physical models are wrong, and while I concede there are still many phenomenon we don't explain correctly, there's also a fuck ton of data that we explain to something like 19 decimal places of precision. Meanwhile, you religious fags just keep referencing how this was all prophesized in some text written in the sand eons ago. You're the same retards who think Nostradamus writing Hissler means he predicted Hitler. It's beyond retarded. You have no means of falsification to your claims. I'll concede that your analogy of mathematical projections to explain the multifaceted nature of the Christain God is an interesting explanation. In fact I'll even give you that I will no longer jump to the 3 parts of God as my argument against Christianity, simply because your analogy is nice, but all it does is argue away one of many, many aspects of your religion which absurdly illogical. I mean you could discuss wormholes to explain how Noah fit so much shit into the Ark. You can argue that depending on the reference frame the first 6 days of creation was actually many billions of years. But it's all bullshit stolen from mathematics and science in order to explain a foundation of illogical bullshit.
The burden of proof is on you. I actually am not against the idea of God. But by Godel's incompleteness theorems I think the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven. And if there is a God, I certainly am not going to belive the shit written by a bunch of doon coons.
No, because you don't actually believe in Satan! That would be like a Christian who didn't believe Jesus was actually real or a son of god, and doesn't believe in God, but thinks some of Jesus's stuff is cool.
You're not Christian then.
You cannot take Satan and give him a positive interpretation unless you believe in the Bible. And then you're misotheists, which again, is at least ballsy - you believe God is real but think he sucks. But you don't believe in the Bible, or God, or the Devil. You can't reclaim something you don't think exists.
The thing is, your philosophy is pretty good, but calling yourself the Church of Satan literally comes off as "lol i troll teh crhistians"
Fuck, call yourself the Church of Love and Freedom, you'll get more members and good press.
>>583831321 Because I like being a good person not because I get anything in return, but because its the right fucking thing to do. I don't need a reason to be good, just like I don't need to know that after 80 years on this earth I get to go somewhere as a reward for not being a douchebag my whole life.
>>583830154 >beliefs and morals >that was convey a message to atheist
So the Bible was the package for morality, correct? That kind of falls on it's face and off the cliff of the thousands of years of previous civilizations which really couldn't thrive without morality and applied ethics to begin with.
>>583831984 Well its just that we are the first generation where not believing in God has been acceptable. You can see it in people nowadays. Stuck up, huge divorce rates, narcissistic, disrespectful. >>583830169 Take this dude for example.... he is some edgelord that thinks he is better than others because he worships something 'bad'
>>583816537 It's been scientifically proven that even the light that we see from the stars in our night sky can be up to millions of years old. With this being true, it also completely discredits the very first chapter of the Bible, Genesis.
And if your story of creation has been proven to be false, how can you expect anyone to believe the remainder of your storybook?
>>583831994 I think we're agreeing on the matter, even if it doesn't sound like it. I've been attempting to explain that, provided the existence of God, all of reality must be contained within something larger.
My argument is this: I have no way of proving my beliefs are true, and you have no way of proving my beliefs are false. Likewise, you have no way of proving your beliefs are true, and I have no way of proving your beliefs are false. And so, we will both continue to believe whatever we want to believe. And that's okay.
>>583829686 So what does that do for my questions? Religion doesn't fucking respect people or society if it's very nature is to see everyone else follow it. There will never be a time where any it will be enough for then. This is plaguing my country's government, my schools, my relationship with my girlfriend's family if it can be called that. So no. Fuck your entitlement for respect if you really believe there's no harm to come from desert death cults.
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