Historical European Martial Arts Thread
Please keep it kind and on topic. Also no SCA/Reenactment please.
Does anyone know where I could get a pair of large/size 13 Red Dragon gloves? Everywhere I've looked is out of stock.
Alternatively, are there any other decent options in that same price range that would work for sparring with synthetics and some controlled drills with steel?
I'm not sure there's much to comment on until a third party gets to try it out unsupervised. What they've shown us so far looks good, but they wouldn't be showing it if it didn't.
I do like the styling of it, though. As long as it's going to be expensive, it might as well look nice. Axel's jacket was a neat color, too, actually. It makes me wonder if we'll eventually shift away from the whole "let's wear black because the sport fencers wear white, and because black is cool" thing. I'm not saying we have to go full on pic related, but I wouldn't complain if it was closer to that than what we see today.
>drinking water from a fountain
u wot m8
I have always preferred dichromatic MA uniforms over monochrome.
Although at the risk of being a larpfag, I wouldn't even mind a bit more traditionalism of dress. Perhaps each club making it's own heraldry and having appropriately colored uniforms. Kinda like modern sports teams have identifying colors.
>"let's wear black because the sport fencers wear white, and because black is cool" thing.
Thats actually because reinforced fencing masters jackets at the time where the only jackets available and halfway up to the job, and guess what, they where black. Turned out this is a good color choice because of the stains and such. It kinda sticked.
intradesting, any details about the inner construction of the glove? Some sort of dutch knuckles inna leather glove? Axel and Anders are really experienced fighters, I can imagine they make a quality product.
I'm a I.33fag, and I have always trained with fellows I.33fags. In a few months I'm going to a tournament where most of the guys are bolognesefags. What should I expect? Who will be more in trouble, me or them?
According to the I.33 I have to stab them if they refuse to bind. But I guess they riposte after parrying, and I feel like that would ends up in a double kill.
So I guess it comes to make them do my game and don't let them make me do their game.
I'm gonna schiltslac everything that moves, fuck it.
>Beginners shouldn't fight
Sure they should. It shouldn't be their main focus, but getting exposed to sparring is definitely important. It's a very different experience than just doing drills, even at higher speeds and intensities, and that's something people need to learn.
No, they shouldnt, because they will get themselves and others hurt, and barring that they will attack into lunges or other dumb shit that reinforces bad form and creates opportunities for judges to make bad calls.
Beginners should not go to tourneys, it encourages the degeneration of the art that already a problem there.
Got my first sword, i want to know what oil to use to prevent it rusting so quick.
In britbong land so local brands please.
Also, ive heard Autosol is good if it does go rusty, any one got experience?
>Got my first sword, i want to know what oil to use to prevent it rusting so quick.
Ballistol is ideal.
If thats not available, most acid free oils will do the trick, avoid WD-40 as it evaporates to fast to form a protective film.
When I actually add them to the cart and try to check out it says that they're out of stock.
I'm about ready to pick up a pair of lacrosse gloves and call it a day. As long as I'm not using steel I should be ok, right?
How bad are these?
Also I just bought a pair of these
>As long as I'm not using steel
Yeah. But that's really...limiting. Get some really cheap ones as a stopgap measure, and aim for proper gloves (RD or better) and steel as soon as possible. Synthetic wasters really aren't any good beyond the first few weeks of training.
>How bad are these?
Looks like the same thing as these:
If so, they're very light weight. As the description says, they're aimed at rapier and sidesword use.
>Synthetic wasters really aren't any good beyond the first few weeks of training.
I don't think that's right at all. There's a ton of stuff, especially when you're just starting out, that you could learn just using a stick that's about the right length. I'm not saying a feder isn't a better learning tool than a waster, but the difference isn't nearly as big as between a stick and a waster, and certainly not the sort of thing beginners need to worry about.
Yes and yes. Very very large club. I visited once while passing through London and have trained with their instructors at a few events. They're a good club. Really the night I went the club was a victim of it's own success tho and it was broken into 5-6 groups to teach the material and I really felt I got the short end of the stick with the 'Scholar' or whatever I got.
If I lived in the area I'd train with Dave Rawlings ten times out of ten tho. Especially if sabre isn't your jam.
It was a saber night which was what I was hoping for. As it's not really done in my country. It would be childish of me to pick on individuals I was just saying that I very rarely got any input from the actual instructors other than them correcting my scholar that what I was doing was in fact perfectly fine.
No doubt they'll be running beginners classes from January. So good time to start.
He pretty much is Tom Hardy. So much so I can't help but think it's intentional styling. He was quoting Mad Max Fury Road quite voraciously(read: several times) at Fight Camp this year.
I love him to be quite frank.
because he also teaches rapier beside his Longsword classes. Also dagger. Sickle. Polearms. Fuck knows what else. He's a professional HEMA instructor teaches 5 nights a week I think.
When I went to Schola Gladiatoria I also tried to get to one of Rawlings sickle classes but sadly never found the place. The HEMA maps marker and my best detective skills led me to an office block beside a railway bridge. Thoroughly perplexed. It's a regret.
Again, it would be childish of me to highlight individuals especially with a club that's as easily trolled in these threads as Easton's.
If that was an adequate description I'm sure she's a fantastic martial artist and a lovely person.
1) How do I deal with longer weapons such as Longsword or Montante while using a Sword&Buckler?
2) Have you ever sparred with another weapon-based martial artist? (Kendo, Arnis, A.C.T)
How did it go?
>1) How do I deal with longer weapons such as Longsword or Montante while using a Sword&Buckler?
S&B has the strongest defense of all HEMA combos, rely on parry riposte fencing. Move into the strike, block the blade with both hands and strike back, if you manage to get under the blade and close to the man you got all torso to strike. Also block at one blöse and then strike to the oposite one.
Attacking first hand is highly dangerous, use feint and/or immaculate timing if you feel the urge to do so.
Also make sure if Gaisler is allowed, if so, drill defenses and counters against it.
And keep your hand and elbows covered at all time, a half covered hand is a an excellent target for a longsword.
>I can protect my upper body somewhat well, it's the lower strikes (Thighs and so) that're hard for me.
Good stance and explosive footwork help with that, however it is the weakest part of your defense, biomechanics and range is working against you.
If you have a nasty fencer that consequently maintains his distance and only snipes to your lower when he has a chance, you are in troubles. Most guys are not that disciplined, so if there is a chance to close in, you should do that. Also drill low guards and how to switch them fast.
Gaysler Gaiszler Geiselhau, a one handed sweeping strike to the legs, comes from the German word Geisel (whip) and is described for example in Talhoffer.
>I think I'd like to get into it but I'm more interested in halberds and stuff like that.
There is many good manuals about pole arms, but
a) you can't really go full contact with them
b) the technique is derived from sword fencing, meaning you should start with a sword and then proceed to halberd.
The main non-swords weapons that is taught in HEMA are usually:
Poleaxes ("short halberds"), many brands of staff (mainly quarterstaff though), daggers, pikes and spears.
Usually, the sword is used as a "master weapon", ie a weapon to explain and demonstrate the basic principles, then you move to other weapons. Usually, the two-handed sword is the easiest weapon to pick and move around, for the late Middle-Ages at least, so it makes a good entry weapon.
Halberds specifically probably not but you have more chance of training with halberds than with any other martial art or sport.
Also once you get past being a beginner the actual weapon starts to matter less and less.
>Have you ever sparred with another weapon-based martial artist? (Kendo, Arnis, A.C.T)
>How did it go?
This question really interests me. I have very limited experience sparring people that are purely from another martial art and not just HEMA guys with a background. With dagger fighting I got absolutely rekt by a Silatfag once (due to my absolutely beginner grappling skills at the time) and Jiu Jitsu has my highest respect.
I've often been tempted to avail of a local Kali club (the very local one never replied to my email so I assume they're gone anyway) and plan on branching into Kali,escrima etc when I get more free time or perish the thought drift away from HEMA.
I certainly don't think they're gonna be better for learning weapon fighting than HEMA I just think that HEMA's usual training programming skips the most important foundation; unarmed grappling as a beginner exercise.
Anyone gone on to train sports like this AFTER HEMA or even just came to HEMA after other weapon. How do they compare and contrast?
Now granted I know that HEMA is the big boys toys sport and I'm confident there's nothing better for weapons sword length and larger but for smaller stuff I'm intrigued.
For anyone interested in wrestling, there's an Indiegogo going on for a guy trying to get a copy of one of the oldest English manuals for wrestling.
>medieval arming sword
No, not as far as I know.There is not to many medieval sources from the time when the arming sword was still in use.
There is however quite a few Renaissance manuals on various one handed sword type weapons.
>I'm confident there's nothing better for weapons sword length and larger...
I'm not an expert or anything, but there's a growing community called A.C.T that covers a large variety of weapons, some of them are the Longsword, Spear, and Machete. (Founder of the art is mainly focusing on knife but he's up to more stuff)
Posting a link, tell me what you guys think
all i see for weapons that aren't knives is stickfighting and one fast guy beating up others that have no clue how a sword works. also an awful lot of extending the head to hit the leg, very prone to überlaufen. then again it's hard to judge from one video
You can find a number of the manuals for free at least, one way or another. Here's Meyer: http://www.mediafire.com/view/byl72m2jmwtla5v/Meyer.pdf
There are lots of great, free resources on how to learn HEMA.
First, you need a friend who also wants to learn it. The more, the merrier.
Then you need the primary source. Find what you want to do, weapon wise. Then look for as much content as you can find about that weapon. Masters, or disciplines, especially.
Then, sit down and figure out which single master or multiple master discipline (Marxbruder, Destreza, Florentine school, etc, etc) you wish to do with that weapon.
Then, find as much material other people have put out about that as possible. Acquire that material.
Some good places to look are HROARR's website, HEMA Alliance Forums, YouTube, Wiktenauer, Tumblr (I'm not even shitting you, there's a good HEMA community there), r/wma subreddit, and if you can track down books, better.
I went with Fiore Longsword, which has a staggering amount of material. Many clubs offer videos of their interpretations on YouTube, and it's only getting better in 2015 and 2016, for all weapons and disciplines.
Then, you need equipment. Track down cheap trainers - many people start with wood or nylon.
If you want to learn, you're going to have to do a little more than reading. You'll need to watch other people, read a few books, talk on the internet with people, and more. Get in touch with as many people as possible. Club heads, trainers, other lone wolfs, even new people.
On Tumblr, a guy puts out an instructional blog for people who are starting new clubs. The issues you tackle, the problems with retention, so on. And many of the big club heads are there too, sharing images and small articles.
HEMA is everywhere on the internet. If you're gonna self study, you're gonna need all the tools.
Alright guys, can you help me out. Sorry if this isn't the right place for this.
I don't know shit about actual historical martial arts and neither does my friend. Regardless, we've been arguing for the past week about a fictional scenario:
You have to fight against a clone of yourself. You can choose beteween two weapons: A high end 15th century zweihänder from germany, or a high end 15th cenutry katana from japan. Your clone takes the one you didn't choose. Which one do you take in order to kill your (evil) clone and survive? (Keep in mind, we don't know how to correctly use either one)
I've always made a case for the european sword, mosty because of its range. My friend is arguing the katana is way faster, and it's therefore easier to cut past any blocking attempts. Which one do you think fares better in this scenario?
Also, after we couldn't reach a conclusion, we expanded a scenario: a 15th century knight with the zweihänder in full plate against a 15th century samurai with this and the katana: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/NanbanDo.jpg.
Again, I think the knight is very hard to damage, while my friend thinks it's easy to tire out the knight because of his heavy armor. Who is more likely to win?
A zweihänder would usually refer to a greatsword, not a longsword. Italians typically named the german longsword, "two handed sword", but it's way shorter than a greatsword. Besides, the greatsword is mainly a 16th century weapon rather than a 15th century one.
Anyway, the point is kinda moot because they aren't dissimilar enough to grant a decisive advantage, kinda the same lenght, weight, etc. Skill is much more important at that point, they are both sharp bladed weapons that will ruin your day with one good stroke and that's about it. A katana of the 15th century would be only a couple inches shorter than a longsword, the nihonto became shorter only during the Edo era really, before, weapons of 105-110 cm were fairly common, and the longsword ain't tons of cm longer. Also it's complete bs to say the katana is "faster" than the longsword, they handle roughly the same, and this is from someone who is primarily into jsa.
Anyway, the old knight vs samurai debate is just as everytime a stupid argument because there is so many parameters to know and so much fanwanking involved than nothing of value will came out of it. A knight and a samurai would most certainly became best bro and go cutting low-born people rather than try to kill each other any way.
Well, thats an odd question
Japanese blades are lengthwise comparatively heavy, that said a Katana is relatively short for a two handed weapon.
A Zweihänder, more correctly a Bidenhänder is an extra long longsword in the late Renaissance.
Japanese swordsmanship is, also due to blade construction, not much into parry riposte, they deflect a blow at most. Since both fighters are equal, the Bidenhänder has imho a distinctive advantage.
And the heavy armor is a myth thing, you can move almost as fast as without it, you just can do it that long. Here it is an even more clear advantage for Knight guy.
>>846664 Huh. I really would have thought they would handle in very different ways, because the katana is curved, is only sharp on one side, has a smaller handguard and such. Then again, I don't know anything. The difference in range is suprisingly low. When I think about two handed swords, I always picture those huge things, almost as tall as its wielder. Were those a thing in any time period?
People didn't stop wearing armour because it slowed them down in fights, they stopped wearing armour because it's uncomfortable to wear, it doesn't breathe well, it makes extremes of temperature more dangerous, it takes up a lot of space, it was expensive, and it's time consuming to maintain.
>I really would have thought they would handle in very different ways, because the katana is curved, is only sharp on one side, has a smaller handguard and such.
Yes and no, the handle similar and different. Theres just so many ways to swing an iron stick and biomechanics are the same on every side of the pond.
The techniques are different, because of the sandwich construction of japanese Swords a blade to blade parry is potentially fatal for your blade, hence they put more emphasis on evading and deflecting, and also put more emphasis on a swift and powerful first strike
European swords after mid 14th century used to be mono steel constructions, they where not hardened as high as Japanese blades and where much more flexible, which means you can hard parry edge to edge if needed, so parry riposte is more of a thing.
Curves and false edges have less to do with that, you can find swords with and without curve, with and without back edges in Europe as well as in Japan.
So both cultures had a fencing style that fitted the blades they used very well.
Wheellock in the 15th century ? I don't think so... I mean we didn't specify "the highest nobility of Europe and Japan" so wheellock, nope.
Rather than the weapons, I think the european armor is overall superior to the japanese one, that takes the cake.
Also in the first post, you get a 5ft long greatsword against a 3ft long katana, that's ridiculous and completely one-sided, especially since both regions had 4ft long two-handed sidearms that compare better.
The katana really works pretty similarly to the longsword, the difference isn't this huge, sure there are specificity, but not to a degree that is significant enough. The handguard of the katana is way more protective than commonly thought, the japanese were using bracers to protect their forearms, that why they didn't "need" crossguards. The curvature of the katana isn't strong enough to greatly change the swordsmanship, it allow the wielder to do cool things in a bind though.
The japanese and the euros both had massive 5ft long two-handed swords, but they weren't that common.
>especially since both regions had 4ft long two-handed sidearms that compare better.
Right, a classic German longsword against a Tachi, that would be even matched and quite interesting.
One of the thing to note is that just like in Europe, there are a lot of differences between schools of kenjutsu. Just like the differences between Italian and German longsword, you get differences usually between central styles and southern styles in Japan. Some argued that shorter blades were better, some said the opposite, technical differences can be very strong between two japanese styles, even when talking of the same time period and the same region.
That's another reason to dismiss the whole "katana vs longsword" as moot. For each weapon there are many ways to use it. What's interesting is how core concepts are developped and how you can compare and differenciate two weapons based on historical uses.
Putting a german longswordist against a kenjutsuka is a silly way to try to solve a ridiculous debate as swordsmanship should be more about understanding than competition and trying to find out "teh best style".
I totally got that, I didn't wanted to sound condemning at all (though I kinda failed re-reading myself).
Now if we could have guys like Ellis Amdur and Guy Windsor training together, that would besomething to behold...
More like firearms had advanced enough that carrying even just a bulletproof breastplate wasn't practical. Also melee combat had become rare enough for it to not be taken into consideration. And armies had gotten bigger, so it was even worse to arm everyone.
One of the main differences between European and Japanese swords that actually influence the behavior of the blade is the pommel, a counterweight that shifts the balance closer to the hand.
You can recover the blade much faster, which is important in European fencing, while it makes the initial strikes less explosive, which is important in Japanese fencing.
Everybody has a tang, not everybody has a counterweight. that plus the comparatively stout blade profiles shifts the point of balance more to the tip in comparison with European blades.
I am not judging which one is better, just noting the differences and the effects which it had for the techniques derived from the use of such weapons.
Have some Katori Shinto Ryu for example. Being kata they don't fully complete the strikes, but you'll still see and hear quite a bit of blade contact.
I'm just saying nihonto tangs are a lot bigger than European tangs, so they also contribute to balance in a more noticeable way.
Just like how period pieces tended to have a thicker ricasso and modern made reproductions tend to go for thinner but with a heavier pommel.
Do you study the Katori style my dear ? Do you not know that most of the blade contact is a false interpretation and a way to hide the inner teachings ?
There is no clashing in TSKSR.
Not to say that there isn't parries in the TSKSR or japanese styles, but most of what seems to be parries are hidden cuts.
Since we are posting the Otake line, here's a video with the Kuzushi at the end.
>I'm just saying nihonto tangs are a lot bigger than European tangs, so they also contribute to balance in a more noticeable way.
No, there is simply no noticeable effect on the point of balance, especially also because they don't run the full length of the handle.
Sandwich vs monosteel and no pommel vs pommel are the most prominent differences between Japanese and European Swords in relation to the behavior of the blade.
Again, I am not judging as in saying one is better than the other. But they behave slightly different and from this come differences in the techniques apply with such weapons.
>because of the sandwich construction of japanese Swords a blade to blade parry is potentially fatal for your blade
Composite construction seems to have been the standard in Europe up until the end of the middle ages. Of the 15th century swords in "The Sword and the Crucible" (by Alan Williams), we have six that combine steel edges with an iron core, four all steel, and one with steel edges and unknown core. Going backwards in time form this we see less and less all-steel swords.
If done right, and with sufficient amounts of steel (in Europe an iron blade would sometimes just have the edges carburised to steel, this makes for a very thin steel layer) such a blade should be very similar in performance to an all steel one. The core of a sword isn't stressed the same way as the skin, and as such its properties doesn't affect the overall properties as much either.
Accordingly, hard blocks, violetn edge to edge contact, and so on are definitely things taught in Japanese swordsmanship.
https://youtu.be/nHa9KUSCn3s?t=6m25s Zornhau threatens with the point!
3 shaku and it's probably a nodachi instead of a tachi. But hey, then we can look to Jigen ryu at least. Though what we can see there (with all koryu, iceberg style is probably a good assumption) appears to be mostly physical and mental conditioning, rather than technique.
>Now if we could have guys like Ellis Amdur and Guy Windsor training together
I'd buy book or three of them comparing notes.
Well no, but if you're looking for 90º edge to edge parries i think you only find that in late saber. Deflections are very common in Europe too. It's just more efficient to "attack" the strike from the side where it's weak.
>So do explain what you mean by hidden cuts.
Just look at the video I posted starting at 11min, these are the hidden cuts, the clashing allows to keep up the kata without interruption, but there is not a lot of parries in TSKSR (there are some).
Here's a video of the first kata taught in the school, with the demonstration and the applications (kuzushi).
This is all common knowledge for people invested in trad japanese swordsmanship, not to be mean but if you think that there are parries in TSKSR, it just shows you know nothing or really not enough.
I can add that in Toledo they did a sandwich construction too, with two "roof tiles" (translating from the Spanish word used in period to describe it) of hard steel over a softer core.
>Deflections are very common in Europe too
>Well no, but if you're looking for 90º edge to edge parries i think you only find that in late saber.
Not agreed, there are many hard techniques where you actually catch the blade and break the line of attack.
One question, do Japanese schools teach Binding or put as much emphasis on it like for example the German school of fencing does?
Every parries and deflections you see in this video will mostly be false, the teaching is hidden, the techniques are not faithfully presented in those kata, it's just a demonstration that hide the true teachings of the kata.
You can't look at TSKSR video and extract things easily because the real teachings are hidden.
>3 shaku and it's probably a nodachi instead of a tachi.
Were the distinctions that established in the 15th century though ? But yeah, Jigen-ryu will be there to crush all of what you assume for certain, including the toughness of your skull I guess...
last part of this intended for this>>846711
There are some bindings techniques, there is one in the first kata of the TSKSR, but they are not that common, especially in later period.
Some schools like Kashima Shinto ryu deals with very close range fighting and have more binding techniques that most I'd say, this among others.
I find even if i'm doing that it's rarely if ever ends up as a 90º edge hit though. There's always some noticeable angle between blades.
Okay, they change some strikes for the sake of having a long kata. Still, does that mean they're acting "wrong" for the sake of it? Is it just an alternative that the school also deems valid? Are the hidden strikes a best case scenario?
And would you say every koryu is the same?
All i'm arguing here is that thinking the Japanese always avoid blade contact is false, and that it's because their swords can't take it is even more false.
>I find even if i'm doing that it's rarely if ever ends up as a 90º edge hit though. There's always some noticeable angle between blades.
Take a classic Absetzten, you catch the blade on the edge, and control it with the cross. Or take two Oberhau neutralizing each others. Those are hard edge to edge techniques in my opinion, and they are common.
But if the Oberhau are aimed at the body they won't hit square.
Similarly for the Absetzen, there will be an angle, that's what makes the blade slide to the cross in the first place.
I'm not arguing that the edges won't touch mind you, i'm arguing that they very rarely hit squarely on each other.
I only recall some mention that in late saber it's advised to do fully 90º blocks so you fully stop the opponent's saber.
Hi KM, I might need your expertise, my antiques dealer gave me a sword for Christmas, looks like it hat been refurbished in the mid 19th century with (likely naval) mounts, but the blade itself seems to be way older, given the profile and grooves. No markings except some likely cabalistic scribes. Will post pics the coming days.
When you train the kata, you train moves, they aren't "wrong", but what a spectator look at it, they won't see what the cuts of the kata really aim for. There is the truth of the kata and the demonstration, the hidden strikes are the true strikes, what the kata is, all the rest is just for show. Every cut is throw to end a fight, so of course, it's kind of a best case scenario, but that's true of all cuts for all traditions, you always try to cut, hoping it will end a fight. What you see in most TSKSR demonstration is not what the kata is about, but more how the kata is made, as a tool, so that the teachings are both hidden and easily transmitted.
I don't know if I'm clear, talking about it ain't easy because I shouldn't talk too much. The videos I put are enough to understand.
Now it's completely true that the japanese styles don't all avoid blade contact, most usually see this as a loss of time, as in the best case, you should cut in an opponent's cut without being hit, avoiding blade contact while cutting down your opponent, now, that's the best case scenario. Sometimes, you just have to block / parry / deflect and go for it. The techniques describe a glimpse of perfect exchange, but everyone knows that it's pretty much impossible to use a kata or a elaborated technique ''as it is shown'' in a real fight. And as you said, the japanese swords could "take it", of course you should always avoid hard contact and parries, but a sword is a tool, it won't break that easily.
Japanese swords were a tad more prone to break than the euro ones and it's true that they were taught to preserve them if possible, now in the heat of the fight, what mattered was to get the shit done and get out alive, if you had to break a sword to do it, so be it ! The soul of the samurai is the sword is a peacetime bullshit.
>But if the Oberhau are aimed at the body they won't hit square.
They have perfect 90% alignment if both are aimed at the same spot.
Absetzen has a lower angle, but it is still full edge on edge. Both are techniques you'd rarely would do with Japanese weapons if I am not mistaken.
Zornhau to the blade (and then back edge to the face) would be another technique where you go deliberately edge on edge, so is pretty much everything you stopp in Ochs guard
>Now it's completely true that the japanese styles don't all avoid blade contact, most usually see this as a loss of time, as in the best case, you should cut in an opponent's cut without being hit, avoiding blade contact while cutting down your opponent
Thats what I meant, of course blade contact happens in both traditions, It is just that the Japanese see it as waste of time and you should avoid it if possible, while in Europe it is part of the technique and seen as useful.
I guess i picked one of the worst koryu to make my point then. But yes, i get what you're saying.
I'm used to training in protective gear, so we don't really need to modify any sequences we might do, so i took the kata more "literally" than i should.
I don't think i'm being clear in what i mean by 90º here. Again i'm not saying there is no edge contact, but the only way i can think of the extemely edge on edge hit i mean by 90º to happen with longswords is with something like two slightly hanging Mittelhaw clashing into each other.
If we look at the two Oberhaw and assume they're identical they'll either not clash if fully vertical or clash at a certain angle if they're diagonal. This will never be a hard 90º clash (i need a better name) unless they were both aimed at the air between the fighters, theatrical fencing style.
Doesn't at least early Liechtenauer say to attack the man and treat the bind as more of an unfortunate consequence than something to aim for?
>I don't think i'm being clear in what i mean by 90º here. Again i'm not saying there is no edge contact, but the only way i can think of the extemely edge on edge hit i mean by 90º to happen with longswords is with something like two slightly hanging Mittelhaw clashing into each other.
>If we look at the two Oberhaw and assume they're identical they'll either not clash if fully vertical or clash at a certain angle if they're diagonal. This will never be a hard 90º clash (i need a better name) unless they were both aimed at the air between the fighters, theatrical fencing style.
This is incorrect, if you have two oberhau, aimed at the upper left blosse simultaneously executed, with correct footwork, they will neutralize each others, and you'll get a perfect 90° edge on edge. Theres many a nicks in Feders that will tell this tale.
There is techniques that use the flat of the blade and deflections like the Schielhau and there is techniques that require full edge on edge contact doesn't matter much if you come it at 60° or 90°.
>Doesn't at least early Liechtenauer say to attack the man and treat the bind as more of an unfortunate consequence than something to aim for?
Not quite, he said parrying is futile if you don't combine it with an attack at the same time, because a simply parry would win you nothing, you are still in the Nach (the non dominant position).
He however said never to attack the sword itself, but the man. This principle is valid, except if you choose an advanced attack against the blade which gives you a shot at the man with a follow up, like certain Krumphau techniques for example. Most beginners tend to fight the blade, which is of course wrong.
>Were the distinctions that established in the 15th century though ?
The strict legal definitions are from later than the 15th century (Momoyama or early Edo I think). However, to the best of my knowledge, it was very rare for the tachi to get anywhere near 3 shaku regardless, and the nodachi was probably seen as a different sword back in its time since it is a much larger thing, that won't for example lend itself to being a single handed cavalry sword, which was a major role for the tachi.
Also, since we're discussing this today, the current day definitions of things seem like it'd be our default.
There's a touch of bind&wind even in kendo kata. Still, there seems to be less of it, perhaps the shorter blades mean that you're usually better off going straight into wrestling instead?
I'll do what I can if I spot them, though that might not be promising much.
One thing which should perhaps be added as well is that with the rather shallow hardening steels back in the day even someone aiming for a full quench hardening might end up with a slack quenched or even largely unhardened core, further reducing the difference between high carbon steel and lower carbon material for the core. As for what hardening method was used, if I remember William's correctly medieval Europe was mostly about slack quenching, gradually shifting over to full quench in the 15th century to early 16th or so.
>I guess i picked one of the worst koryu to make my point then. But yes, i get what you're saying.
>I'm used to training in protective gear, so we don't really need to modify any sequences we might do, so i took the kata more "literally" than i should.
Frankly, when I read "koryu with parries" I knew that it would be a katori vid, but heh, I guess it shows the hiding is still working, it's not like it's a fault from your part, but yeah classic mistake. Then again, even knowledgeable people used to and still fall for the trap, it's not such a common device even for jsa. Now in the age of internet, it's easier to know it's not the complete and real deal, but still if you didn't researched it.
The European sword offers a far greater variety of close-in fencing options due to its greater resilience, cross-guard and, above all, second edge.
Sure, I'm biased as hell because I do German longsword, but I really don't see the Katana as having any sort of advantage. It sure as hell isn't "faster".
If we're talking full-on Greatsword things start to shift a bit - now the katana really may be a bit easier to handle - but generally speaking it just adds further advantages in reach and power to the European weapon.
>Doesn't at least early Liechtenauer say to attack the man and treat the bind as more of an unfortunate consequence than something to aim for?
To my understanding, the point is that an attack that would directly hit your opponent is one that he cannot ignore, and must defend himself against. So you should make sure that any move you make is immediately threatening to your foe; forcing him into the Nach. Taking the initiative and stripping him of most attack options, so to speak.
You realise everyone of those videos is pure bullshit, right?
Jesus, you American 4chan neckbeards must be terrible at HEMA if you can't see why 99% of what's shown in those videos is for show and absolutely useless.
Dimicator must have seen your posts and posted this earler. Yes it is for ants.
All clubs start with someone so it's not impossible but if you want to git gud you're going to have to travel and get some hands on help first.
My instructor was the first in my country to do HEMA and set up our club he contacted a club in a neighbouring country who gave him a weeks intensive training course and the groundwork to start teaching himself HEMA and travelled around as many events as he could to get experience.
It's not impossible to learn it yourself from other resources but we live in a time were we can be taught and critiqued by experienced practitioners it's a waste to not take advantage of that.
This has been covered extensively. The general answer is yes. That was how everyone in the first generation did it. Your David Cvets, Matt Eastons, and Mat Galas's learned from the masters we're studying, and experimented with each other extensively.
However there is a caveat. It's harder and takes longer to get good. A tutor of your own, in the flesh, would be far better. Where possible, it is recommended to get training from an instructor.
There are some things you can do to substitute for no instructor being close by.
Video tape your techniques and send them to instructors. People are usually pretty good about offering advice. Keep up a rapport.
Watch other videos intently. Watch the techniques you're interpreting, what others do, and why. Watch as many as possible. Load up on those YouTube subscriptions.
Do something like >>846865 mentioned. Go to an intensive course and learn your fucking ass off.
It's also important to recognize that even if you're heading a club, and teaching others, you're the student, and not the master.
These will also be good videos to listen to.
What's some good gear I can get to start HEMA shit and such?
I tried cutting sticks and using them as swords / polearms / spears with a friend but it didnt work so well.
I also have an oversized buckler and a shitty bokken, which was greatly superior to the sticks, besides perhaps the spear one.
The ideal (and most expensive) option: Flexible blunt steel weapons of whichever kind you want (stick to one weapon at first) plus protective gear for drills and sparring, sharps for test cutting.
Less ideal: Skip the sharps.
Even less: Nylon or wood wasters instead of steel. Possibly slightly less protection (but don't underestimate plastic or wood, it can still break fingers easily and wood doesn't flex much on the thrust).
The almost cheapest: Wood or rattan sticks of the right length, possibly a homemade handguard.
The bare minimum: Sticks and no protection, you can only try things slowly or on the air/some kind of target. Just adding fencing masks improves this by a lot however.
Though if you want to do rapier sticks are pretty awful. But still like 40 times cheaper than a rapier (i'm assuming you buy decent tool handles which are at least straight here).
Really if you know which weapon you want it'd be easier to help. But IMO for weapons i'd go stick -> steel. I don't find nylon/wood wasters to be worth the price (~1/3 to 1/2 of a decent steel sword).
If you're buying a sword to get into HEMA buy a proper Feder. Do it right the first time and you won't have to do it again.
I get it that Feders don't look appealing to beginners but that'll change.
No, you don't buy a sharp sword if you wan't to get into hema.
You first start out with wooden wasters, you got no technique and sword control to speak of whatsoever, so a wooden sword is good enough. You drill the basics, learn the footwork, do some more drills and then some.
If you done that, an managed to not hit yourself doing drills or fooling around, you might want to proceed to something else.
Feders are for fencing,drilling. If you have no partner then it has not much advantage over any well balanced BLUNT sword. If you got a Partner and a Feder, you also will need a fencing mask and gloves as bare minimum.
Sharp swords are for cutting only, and only make sense if you are advanced. fooling around sharps and no basic sword control is a recipe for disaster.
But before you even think about a sword, check for decent manuals and dvd's on HEMA.
I don't know if he used "feder" to means specifically a training longsword, or a sparring safe training sword in general, different people have different ideas about how specific the term is.
That said, a bastard sword would in HEMA fall into the longsword group (bastard sword, longsword and hand-and-a-half sword are all very closely related terms, maybe not quite synonymous, but kinda). It'd work (as well as it could) for that, but it would work far worse if you tried using it to practice any single handed weapon/style.
So regardless, for anything you might want to practice with that bastard sword, get a longsword feder instead. If you go with a manual/master/style that has more single handed techniques (Fiore I think is an example here) you might want a slightly shorter one, while somethign that has less of that might suggest a longer one (Meyer probably). But you want a longsword feder either way.
Now if you don't want to practice longsword, then whatever it is you want to have a go at, you still want a "feder style" blade, since these will be a lot safer than a blunt. A blunt sword is designed like a sharp, and the sharp is designed to be lethal, the blunt's just not sharpened. A feder style blade on the other hand is designed from the ground up to be not lethal, while still handling like a sharp.
Trying to practice with the "wrong" weapon, say using a sabre for I.33, isn't impossible, but it'll distort things. What should work well suddenly works a lot less well, what shouldn't really work suddenly does, things get in the way and so on. So if you can at all avoid it, do so.
As for a bit of more general advice, if you're getting into HEMA, find a club first. See what weapons and masters they study. Get a sword that fits that. Ask your instructor for advice on which sword to get. Don't start with the sword, start with the people.
did a lot of sparring with wooden swords
was more thinking about the blunt version of the sword obviously not the sharp one
but since it is easy to switch the blade it seemed interesting to me since it would enable me to do some cutting with it as well
>fooling around sharps and no basic sword control is a recipe for disaster.
One example, pic related: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?53083-Why-the-best-piece-of-advice-is-quot-Get-an-Instructor-quot-WARNING-DISTURBING-PHOTOS-ON-P-2
And it should probably be noted that in my previous post I assumed that the Hanwei tinker bastard would be a blunt one, since it's sold as both blunt and sharp and I didn't bother checking the link.
>If you want to do HEMA you're going to want a good base in Longsword before moving on to other things.
Why? It's perfectly fine to start with other weapons. Most people in Spain (maybe Italy?) start with rapier.
Just to be nitpicky, there are non-feder style blades which are flexible enough (and sometimes more than enough, like my longsword or a rapier i used to have). They're harder to find though.
Right now i think only Szymon Chlebowski (with his absolute inability to deliver on time) and maybe Viktor Berbekucz (though i haven't actually seen first hand one of his) make them. They're both pretty cheap too.
> there are non-fedora style blades
Literally impossible, keep dreaming nerd
>Physical copies are a whole other matter though.
turns out fencing books in Germany are reasonably priced, they even got original sources from different European languages: http://shop.fines-mundi.de/de/Fechtliteratur
I was just looking at getting one of Chlebowski's feders; what sort of delays are we taking about here? I've heard he does good quality stuff, and it's real cheap, but I'd rather not wait forever for something.
We ordered some swords from him, we would've liked to have them before a demo we do each year. It was rather rushed by he said he might just make it. By the same time next year he still didn't have the swords, so we cancelled the order. Also during that year we could see him posting pictures of Witcher swords he was making on facebook.
If he'd outright told us it'd take a year (and delivered) i wouldn't have even minded. It's cheap and good, i can take it being slow. But to say a delivery date and not having it done a year later... yeah, i'll pass.
It's very annoying because he does some really good work when he actually does it.
I'd say his quality can be variable. We've a couple messers and arming swords and i'd say about half of them have burred badly over maybe 2 months of moderate drilling and sparring. Regenyei, Ensifer, etc. haven't had any such problems.
Depends what you mean by cheaper.
I'd include Viktor Berbekucz (www.schwertschmiedeviktor.de) for sure, Pavel Moc (www.swords.cz) is a bit more expensive. Jiri Krondak (fabri-armorum.com/english) is also quite cheap, he used to be infamous for making sword shaped I-beams, but he seems to have some options for lighter and better balanced blades now.
I know very little about Bolognese anything but I have it in my mind that it's a much prettier more dancelike style of swordfighting that I'd really like to seek out in the future.
Can anyone give me a quick rundown.
If the swords are for show combat only I'd recommend one of the cheaper Czech makers like
They are usually overbuilt and have blunt blades, so nothing for HEMA per se, but good for show.
Sorry if this doesn't belong in this thread, but what is this, is it just reenactment or something else?
I just bought a cane. Solid wood, with a crook and a rubber and metal stopper. I can remove that as well.
Anyone know of any fairly complete cane fencing sources? I'm looking for something that's self contained, and won't require me to learn other systems.
Right now I'm training Fiore, so the cane's just a curiosity for me. And a small piece to swing around in my home to practice single handed sword drills.
There's Bartitsu, i think Paulus Hector Mair has something on short staff which might be applicable. Also anything about singlestick should work reasonably well, though the lack of hand protection might be an issue.
For what I remember, his primary sources are those two, his vids shows mainly stuff from them, it's not like I chose what sources he studies... Besides, there are stuff about Manciolino and Di Grassi on his site. It's not like I'm he, but he seems pretty good and serious about his stuff and he was taught by Windsor, if it matters...
Oh and there is this too http://renfence.com.au/
Don't know the quality of it, just looked at it recently.
What good clubs are there around Frankfurt, Germany? I'm an American who is going to be here for about 2 years. I'm as knowledgeable as a wet paper towel when it comes to HEMA, and I'm looking for a club that is, for lack of a better term, American friendly. Any ideas oh great aspies?
It would look the same as regular longsword only they'd have a second longer longsword constantly schaitelhau-ing eachothers fucked up alien heads. Or maybe two extra sideswords or just daggers always striking in from wild haymaker angles.
Saber flourishes would be pretty sweet.
It doesn't make sense to me for a biped to have four arms so they would have to have at least four legs too which would make footwork completely different. Certainly more square.
How are HEMA beginner classes in general? How was your experience?
The only place that does it around here seems to allow about a pretty long time of solo practice and drills before sparring and I'm a pretty impatient dude so I'm hesitant to sign up. I'm thinking about orienting myself a bit more towards two-handed swords and maybe rapiers if that changes anything.
I was one of the founders of my club, so i haven't really been in one. Usually we just integrate people into class as they come in rather than doing specific classes. It's not like practicing basics is bad for the vets anyway.
As far as sparring goes we've had people give it a go on their first day with rapiers, but i wouldn't do that with longswords.
My experience was pretty brilliant to be honest but most of us will be biased.
I never left a class with a similar feeling of totally rethinking something I thought I understood as my first longsword class. The learning curve of the first few lessons is almost straight vertical. I had a great time.
If you're anything like me expect to grip the shit out of your sword (my hands had blisters after class for the first few weeks.) and take shoulder breaks.
Don't worry about rushing into sparring. Sparring as a beginner is good in alot of ways, you learn alot, but at the minute I lean towards it reinforcing bad habits. My instructors are much better than me so I bow to their wisdom of making our beginners spar on the regular but it does get frustrating trying to explain the way they're doing a technique is still wrong even if it's the way that they've decided works best in sparring other beginners. Especially with lanky guys who rake in early success.
There are more books I'm aware of, but I'll need some time to remember them.
There are also some tutorials on youtube, btw.
Longswording with steel has a good potential for injury, so we don't let newbies do that but wait until they develop at tt least the basic skills to defend themselves and also moderate themselves to protect them and their future opponents.
Imho we should train newbies half a year of footwork only first, but most of them would give up, so we give them a wooden sword and sometimes let them spar light with Nylons.
Most newbies underestimate the training it takes to just get the basics right, much less to get proficient enough to use said techniques in a fight.
super noob here. I just kinda showed up after reading that my local club had a meeting at the park. one of them handed me a feder and told me to follow what everyone else was doing.
We all were in a circle copying the instructor. Then we partnered up and did drills.
About two days of this and then lessons changed to: 1) stretching 2) new lesson 3) sparring
After my first real go at an opponent, even though I did absolutely terrible, I knew I loved it.
>I'm a pretty impatient dude
You need to learn to be patient if you want to learn any kind of martial art. If you're looking for combat sports, a bare minimum of technique and all sparring, there are plenty of them. Imho HEMA is a martial art (as the name says) but not everyone agree on it and treat it like a combat sport. So, if you want to get sparring soon, you'll surely find a club that will let you do so, but I think you'll be missing the core of the art.
Now there's an idea: someone (else) should set up a webcam and start streaming their practices online. Stuff like two-way interaction might be a little tough, so you'd probably have to adjust the curriculum a bit if you really wanted to cater to the remote audience, but it'd give people a regular practice to attend, and someone they could talk to about whatever they're working on. Not perfect, but maybe better than just the original sources and youtube vids.
What exactly do you want to do? A certain weapon? A specific master/tradition?
There are period books, modern books, modern books about the period books, some DVDs... It really depends on what you want to do.
Also you could try the wma subreddit since that gets asked quite often there:
There's sadly little information about that, at least if you mean medieval shields. There's some sidesword and rotella in some Italian source i can't remember.
The closest thing if you want medieval shield would be Royal Armouries Ms. I.33/Walpurgis/Tower Manuscript (just I.33 seems to be the most common name).
People have "varied opinions" on his training methods, but Roland Warzecha has pretty good videos on it for example: https://www.youtube.com/user/warzechas/videos
Also maces are problematic, being made to defeat armor it's pretty much impossible to fight with them with intent. I'd recommend going with sword, there's a lot more material and it's a lot safer.
It's certainly possible to explore sword and shield in a more historical way than the SCA. But it will mean learning I.33 and then designing something that uses similar principles with the bigger shield.
That's fine if he wants rotella and a sword with some degree of hand protection. It's not if he wants viking era or kite shields (though for kite and other strapped shields taking a look at rotella might be a good idea anyway).
Usually when people say they want to do sword and shield they mean medieval. Also if we're comparing to the SCA i'm going to assume kite shields.
I work straight from the source so i haven't really used any. I know of some, but i can't say how good they are.
There's Guy Windsor's stuff, mostly based on Fiore but also seems to have some Philipo Vadi: http://guywindsor.net/blog/books/
There's a book about Spanish Verdadera Destreza from Sebastien Romagnan who supposedly bases it on the same source i study, but his youtube videos make me think might not be entirely faithful to the source. Still at the very least a very good looking book: http://destreza-historicalfencing.blogspot.com.es/2015/08/destreza-historical-fencing.html
I know John Clements from ARMA also published some books, but IIRC he's never very specific about which source each thing is coming from, which doesn't sit well with me.
Did anyone catch what the guy said about Easton on Norlings facebook.
Yea Farrell's probably the best the UKs got to offer (my heart still belongs to Rawlings) and so far the only one leading the way with his writing and publishing.
The German Longsword Study Guide is a great primer for beginners and an even better recap resource for experienced people. Especially those like myself that tend to take long breaks for vocational reasons.
A third of the book is internet links tho which even though no doubt they are great it sorta frustrates me as links printed on paper always have. It's a concise little read. Made to be a sort of handout for beginners so don't expect anything near a comprehensive work and that's my only real complaint about it since I make this post to highly recommend it but Farrell has a much better book in him. I really look forward to when he sits down and writes his proper Magnum Opus. I think he has something really definitive in him.
at most events i've been throws are encouraged and actually score if you manage to throw your oponent and stay on your feet. kicks to the legs disguised as trips have been banned due to some guys lowkicking their opponents into submission while ignoring the opponents weapon. depends a lot on where you train i guess
hoping i could get some advice on this.
i'm interested in learning sidesword, and i've got what i think are some good video lessons, ( https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF5DB2A47C418C9E9 as well as some others from the same guy behind a paywall) as well as some of the manuscripts from the links in the OP, but i don't have anyone to practice with, nor is there a good hema community to join in my area.
what would be the best way for me to learn / practice, given these circumstances?
Take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/user/celgus/videos
Practice the forms/assaults/assalto, get something to hit and try to do something similar but hitting at the right distance.
Or do a lot of footwork. Weight changes, lunges, just stepping around the place as fast as you can, etc.
I'm in the market for a new BoH protection and I know I want this general style but has anyone had experience with both? I looked around on the HEMAA forum and on youtube to see if anyone had done reviews but no such luck.
I'm kinda leaning towards the PBT since it's cheaper and seems to be a bit more of a snug fit.
Yes, one size fits all. I got an L myself.
An alternative is the allstar BotH, excellent quality and fit, but high price tag.
To be honest i don't think it's a big concern. I thought they were tailored to sit just above the hips. If you're really concerned you could invest in some fencing pants which protect the area much better.
The pelvis is strong as fuck and other than the odd Unterhau's I don't think I ever get hit there at all but each their own.
Not that anon, but I beg to disagree. Armor every part of your body where the bones are close to the skin.
A hit on the thigh or your biceps will leave a nasty bruise, but thats it. If you get hit on the unprotected knee or the collarbone, it can mean a trip to the ER. Same goes for the pelvis.
SPES jackets got a triangular part sewn in at the armpit to prevent the vest from moving when you move your arms upwards, but this does not seem to work that well an small sizes, we got the same same problem with a girl in my club.
You could try this, but from what i've heard it's thinner than the AP jacket: http://histfenc.com/productcart/fechtschule-gdansk-gambeson-pro
Or there's the skirt thingie which would just be an addon: http://histfenc.com/productcart/padded-skirt
>need a new pair of gloves
>St. Marks not in production
>Pro Gauntlet not in production
Is there a change they bring something to market within 6 months?
Very little especially unarmed groundwork.
I think I read a post in another thread were the anon was using this to argue that groundwork was discouraged in the treatises. This may well be true but don't forget the context. Wrestling was a common kids activity and had /has remained a constant through the centuries so many of the treatises may have taken a level of competency in it already for granted the same way they do with footwork.
This is why I kind of want to get the Red Dragon gloves for now. I have no gloves right now, and I do longsword. But if I can just build a couple protectors for the front and back fingers, I'll probably be fine until these slick five-finger gloves come out.
I later plan on doing various one handed swords, so having clamshells won't help me when I start Sabre or Rapier.
Do not buy red dragons for longsword. You will break your fingers. It doesn't matter what auxiliary protection you add to the glove. I promise you it will not work and you will get hurt.
>Those don't look like current RD gloves.
They arrant, but they are modified lacrosse gloves, just like RD, and they have the same inherent flaw when it comes to steel longsword. When you get hit on the hand, and your fingers are pressed against the handle, 2-3mm of leather and foam wont protect shit.
My pinky exploded like a vienna sausage in the microwave, took 8 stitches to sew it back in place and since then I got no feel in it. I payed equivalent to $1200 in medical fees. Most of the old timers in my club have similar stories to tell.
If you longsword, get hard gloves.
>they're shitty lacrosse gloves
So are red dragon, they are your average lacrosse glove, just painted black. And that is the reason why they are not permitted at major tournaments.
The guy who posted about wanting RD or the Pro Gauntlet or Koning Glove here. Is there any good five fingered glove/gauntlet solution for steel longsword? There's the obvious steel gauntlets, but even those aren't that good.
>I used them for steel fighting like the idiot I am.
In retrospect it wasn't my best idea. but to my defense, that was back in 2010 or so, back then no one had gear, safe for DIY.
We worked us trough many types of hockey, lacrosse, moto racing and home made variants of gloves and gauntlets.
We had broken fingers, split fingers, broken thumbs, one broken hand, a couple of concussions, two ribs and a knee really fucked up.
Then Basha Chlebowska and the boys from Fechtschule Gdansk came up with with he first real gauntlets, and we had almost nil serious incidents since then.
To be perfectly honest with you it sounds like you guys have control issues. The odd broken finger was common back before rigid clam shell type gloves, but not to that extent. Concussions, fucked up knees and broken ribs? It's a sword not a club.
>To be perfectly honest with you it sounds like you guys have control issues.
20 guys, over 10 years time? I had my first contact with HEMA in 2002, back then nobody knew anything about historic fencing. We started out with a hand copied translation of the Tower Fechtbuch, some ass heavy larp swords, old fencing masks and a lot of enthusiasm.
>Concussions, fucked up knees and broken ribs? It's a sword not a club.
Ribs and Concussions are why we don't use metal gauntlets anymore, someone fell during a takedown on his opponents hand, two broken ribs.
we had had concussions, mostly due to over heavy non historic sword like objects and their fucking owners refusing to change them with something suitable.
It's a learning curve.
Yeah, I really don't want to get the black lance. No one has ever said good things about it.
I suppose I'll have to get clamshells and wait for the Pro or Koning.
Probably will get the AF ones, since they're available at Purpleheart.
Alright, that's fair enough. But you realise the way you were wording it earlier came off as if the reason for all the injuries was due to lacrosse gloves, when actually it was for a variety of reasons, including unhistorical, heavy swords, lack of treatise knowledge, steel gauntlets, bad fencing masks, stubborness and wrestling?
Anyway. RD's are not a good idea for fast paced steel longsword, but fine for nylon or things like rapier and saber. Your risk of getting a finger broken with RD or lacrosse gloves is higher with longsword than if you were wearing rigid clamshells, but you can still use them with relative control and drilling
Many hand injuries came from lacrosse gloves. Them and hockey gloves where HEMA standard for quite some time. We saw hand injuries on a yearly basis.
Check the injury reports from swordfish, before and after they banned lacrosse gloves.
What you say about RD gloves is right, just many students lack the discipline to not use them for steel sparring when the opportunity arises.
Did helmets with bar grills exist historically or is it a modern SCA thing?
Helmets with bar grills did exist historically, but in the form the SCA uses, they're entirely an SCA invention.
...Actually I guess they're a nip invention since the design's clearly cribbed from a kendo mask.
Rapier and dagger is not that effective at stoping heavy blows, S&B is much better in that respect.
Rapier by itself is the weakest in defense and the strongest in offense.
This of course, if you like to try out anachronistic fight combinations like longsword against rapier. Also it doesn't make one weapon or combination better than the other, but it gives a good indication how you should fence with one weapon against the other.
For example if you S&B agains longsword, you just can let the other guy keep coming, parry, riposte. Doing this with a Rapier would be fatal, her it would be more appropriate to attack and make the pressure.
>anachronistic fight combinations like longsword against rapier.
There were people practicing longsword as far as the late 16th, just when the rapier was at the beginning of its peak. Sure, it wasn't for war, more for salle work, but it's not impossible to think that some people tried out longsword against rapier or at least proto-rapier.
>You can stop a longsword with a rapier, but it takes a toll on the cup.
Yes, but it ain't that a reliable method. You'd rather take the imitative and start lunges than trying to parry Twerhaus left and right with a rather long one handed blade.
>Rapier and dagger is not that effective at stoping heavy blows, S&B is much better in that respect.
This is a total myth. A rapier can parry with the forte as well as any other sword, and a sail dagger is superior in every way to a buckler.
>Rapier by itself is the weakest in defense and the strongest in offense.
This is so bad, it isn't even wrong. "Fencing" means literally "defending". Offense IS defense, and many of the masters e.g. Capo Ferro state this explicitly: to offend is the final state of defense when someone tries to kill you. You put him down to protect yourself. In other words, the powerful offense of the rapier, its superior range, is the precise reason that rapier and dagger is a stronger defensive combo than board and swuckler. And I don't mean this as some "war is peace" sophism, either; the way the rapier permits you to keep the opponent on his back foot, safely far out of distance to strike you, is an incredible defense. When matched with the dagger's close-range parrying and striking abilities, it's peerless.
>This is a total myth. A rapier can parry with the forte as well as any other sword, and a sail dagger is superior in every way to a buckler.
Whut? Your forte is minimal on a rapier, biomecanical a long thin stick which you hold in one hand is about the worst thing to parry heavy blows with there is. And a buckler is the same thing to a sail dagger, that iron disk is able to stop pretty much everything, a sail dagger is designed for much lighter work.
Claiming that Rapier is best in offense is fair, but claiming it is the best at defense is just silly.
Nice stuff you are quoting about the nature of fencing, but I am sure Capoferro was not comparing Rapier to longsword or S&B, which is what we did in that debate. We talk about the characteristics of each of those weapons, and what strategy is advised best when having a little interdisciplinary fun. Sure you can beat a longsword with a Rapier, but you have to fence it smart and mind your distance, cause if you walk into range some pivoting strikes come flying and you gonna have a hard time switching sides fast enough and parry the strikes.
>fechten means to fight with arms, Fechter
>schirmen means to defend, Schirmeister
>Whut? Your forte is minimal on a rapier, biomecanical a long thin stick which you hold in one hand is about the worst thing to parry heavy blows with there is. And a buckler is the same thing to a sail dagger, that iron disk is able to stop pretty much everything, a sail dagger is designed for much lighter work.
Alright, I guess you haven't ever actually tried it. I've fought tons of matches against non-matching arms, and I can tell you that even single rapier is usually incredibly frustrating to folks with a different weapon or combo. Also, a well made sail dagger has at least as thick gauge steel in the sail as a buckler is made of. It's not flimsy or "designed for lighter work". Similarly parrying with a rapier is literally not even a little bit different than with a sabre, and not much unlike a longsword either. I get the impression that you have no personal experience of this, or you've just used one of those floppy-bladed Hanweis. Matt Easton has quite a few videos debunking this type of rapier myth, you could check those out.
>fechten means to fight with arms, Fechter
Correct, but "fechten" isn't related to "fencing" at all, as a word. Think about it. Fence? A fence, like in your yard? Fencing can also mean "putting up a fence", that is a defender. Of your yard. Here's the etymology: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fencing
>I get the impression that you have no personal experience of this, or you've just used one of those floppy-bladed Hanweis.
You got the wrong impression and frankly, you sound a tiny bit presumptuous.
>Matt Easton has quite a few videos debunking this type of rapier myth, you could check those out.
>unironically recomending Easton YT vids as an argument in a HEMA debatte
>not being able to think for yourself
Yeah,no, you're a cunt.