Historical European Martial Arts Thread
Please keep it kind and on topic. Also no SCA/Reenactment please.
hey anon, are you into martial arts?
thanks for asking. im actually well versed in classical martial arts from europe.
>this is what a hematard looks like
pick an actual martial art faggots
>Martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practices, which are practiced for a variety of reasons: self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, entertainment, as well as mental, physical, and spiritual development.
>Although the term martial art has become associated with the fighting arts of eastern Asia, it originally referred to the combat systems of Europe as early as the 1550s.
Also learn how to write.
IIRC Meyer is the one with the pommel reaching your armpit if the point is on the ground. As far as i can remember earlier stuff doesn't specify, but they quite likely used shorter swords.
I don't think any technique in a longsword treatise is impossible with any of the common lengths, but some just work better with longer or shorter swords.
Also shorter swords tend to make grappling more important.
>IIRC Meyer is the one with the pommel reaching your armpit if the point is on the ground.
That indeed is Vadi. However, Meyer, which is a master of the later German school (Marksbrüder, Freifechter), prefers a longer blade than the early German school (Liechtenauer). Turns out that nipple height (armpit) a la Vadi is a good rule of thumb.
Fun Fact, the Albion Meyer, despite being an otherwise excellent blade, is way to short, hence it never catched on as a Feder.
Hearing Matt Easton say "massive fuck off beard" made my day.
yes the human body hasn't changed. It's essentially just wrestling. Which in most of Europe is quite hard to come by.
It's better for sport, fitness and strength than self defence. Really if self defence is your main priority HEMA in general isn't really your best bet. Especially if you're in a country where brutally killing your assailant gets you in hot water.
For the vast majority of clubs who do either it's just a supplement for fencing as all fighting comes from wrestling according to the old and the dead. It is a good litmus test for a clubs quality mind you as wether it's taught well or not is much more glaring to a beginner than with Longsword.
>brutally killing your assailant
You've been having that langes Messer vs knife mugger fantasy again, didn't you?
Another problem with medieval self defense techniques is that the knife defense is practically useless in modern contexts. The majority of arbrazare's dagger defense is against a rondel, which is long and generally used in an overhand grip. While an actual knife attack in a modern context is likely going to be a quick underhanded attack with a pocket knife or improvised weapon (kitchen knife, ice pick, screw driver ect.) Against such a small, irregular weapon, you'd be hard pressed to perform dagger techniques in ideal settings, let along an ambush where a knife attack is most likely to happen.
That's not to say it's completely useless. Reaction training, experience from sparring and Fiore's four masters of dagger combat (Disarm, break/dislocate arms, lock joints, bring to ground) are all useful tools, but knives are super dangerous even for well trained and experienced fighters.
Guys. I want another steel. I have a Chlebowski that I absolutely love and got really lucky with on the wait times. But I want another. I'm having trouble deciding between an Albion Meyer, a Pavel Moc, a Dobringer, and a Regenyei longsword (the Number 36, not a feder). I know they're all incredibly different, but I just can't decide. I'm a slave to aesthetics but I also want something sturdy, well made, that will handle nicely.
I've handled a few Regenyei Feders and they all seemed very well balanced. They also survived years of training, sparring and a number of tournaments, so I guess that guy knows his craft.
Thats a personal preference, they acually work nice and protect your thumbs, but some purists don't like them because Muh Lichtenauer. But then, Ring guards where a thing from 1500 onwards.
Also, with the big Regenyei rings you have no problems doing a thumb grip, even with the heavy gloves.
So I'm now the Ringen instructor for my group.
I have more than ten years experience in combat sports, with a lot in folkstyle (high school/college) wrestling both competing and assistant coaching.
So for anyone out there whose groups train Ringen, what manuals do you use (if you don't just use the few pages from the manual you learn longsword etc. from e.g. Meyer)?
I'm putting together a manual for my group to use, and so far I've just been getting them through some of the basics of folkstyle. We train from Meyer, but there are a lot of gaps from what I've seen. So I'm interested in what other groups are doing.
There is a good translation (and also original if happen to speak German) from Fabian von Auerswald online. Even more, there are educational DVD's on Auerswall and Ott available from Ringschule Wroclaw.
>Seriously there's a place for shorter longswords too.
Indeed there is, but Meyer era? They are on the longer side usually, and Albion makes the midget version. Aside from that, nothing wrong with that blade, well, maybe the price tag is a little high for a simple Feder.
>Apparently some tournaments forbid them too, so that's also something to consider.
True, the thinking behind this was for tournaments where Ringen techniques are alowed it can be dangerous to have sowrds with rings on the ground. If you get smashed on a flat hilt sword, nothing much will happen, but if you fall on a hilt with rings you can sustain serious injury. This is indeed a point that has to be considered.
I've handled an Ensifer before. It felt handled like a 2x4. This is coming from being used to a Chlebowski which are generally really blade heavy. But this thing I remember trying out was absolutely unwieldy and awful. Is that common?
Unless you're used to really unhistorical PoBs, no. My experience with Ensifer is a really responsible blade but way too narrow for my tastes.
Same with Chlebowski really, he makes really nice flexible blunts. When he finally decides to deliver his orders that is.
I'm using the stuff from Meyer as a starting point, but there are gaps that need to be closed, especially ground work (both fighting there and escaping back to your feet), and a few simpler leg attacks.
So I'm spending a couple weeks giving them some basic folkstyle while until I start rolling the Meyer stuff + what I plug in into the practices. I was already looking at some vids on YouTube of some different Ringen stuff, but I will take a look at these.
>ground work (both fighting there and escaping back to your feet
Martin Huntfeltz in the Codex Danzig (90v-93r) is the only source about this I am aware of. I am not a Ringen expert, maybe someone else know more sources about groundwork.
The Ensifer feders i handled were from quite a while ago, so i really can't say. They looked pretty close to the Talhoffer though i'd guess it was the light blade.
Lately we've been using Viktor Berbekucz feders and they're really cheap and have more blade presence than most, though the middle and weak are plenty flexible for safe thrusting, perhaps too much on the flexible blade, though too little on the stiff for my taste.
I got longswords and messers from them.
Ensifer is Jan Chodkiewicz from Fechtschule Gdansk, same club where Szymon Chlebowski is also from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esI1fIAHNgY
For the swords, they have every good quality a sparring blade can have but one, they are, likely due to the training regime at FG, a bit on the heavy side. They are balanced, flex well and handle well in the bind, the PoP's are perfectly aligned in the handle and upper third of the blade, Pivotpoint is right at the cross.
They are well within the specs of period weapons, but they are on the heavy side for a training blade and do indeed strike a tad harder than others do. on the plus side, they hold forever.
What sort of armor should I be looking for?
Just started HEMA, and I was told to get something to cover my torso. I think he said something about a gambeson? I'm pretty much looking for whatever is in ops image.
I would say type XII or XV. Obviously there's a little leeway for interpretation but they typically had the round pommels and roughly similar blades. At the end of the day, though, it's not hugely important for practicing it today.
Yo, new to HEMA and i got hit on thumb again making it swell up something fierce. I know the old adage of "Get good" and i won't get hit, but until then i need armor, any recommendations on gloves?
>I know the old adage of "Get good" and i won't get hit, but until then i need armor, any recommendations on gloves?
No one says that, you need gloves to do HEMA.
I assume you asked about longsword in that case you likely want something like: http://sparringglove.com/
For other disciplines different gloves are available.
This. Hand hits are going to be something you can't really prevent in a lot of cases, especially tournaments or full-contact sparring bouts. Sparring gloves (affectionately referred to as "the polish ones") are fantastic. I have the hoof version with the extended cuff and they work very well. They're also the most readily available in most cases. Another popular option is the SPES Heavy clamshell gloves. They're less popular because they really do impair your movement for the first year or two of owning them until you break them in thoroughly, but they are incredibly protective.
In the mean time (since most hema gloves take a while to order) if all you're doing is synthetic longsword or something less heavy, lacrosse gloves work fine, as well as the red dragon sparring gloves which are essentially slightly modified lacrosse gloves.
I want to make some training rondels out of wood for my club.
Any tips or advice?
I posted this a few threads back but I need help deciding on a BoH protection. I have the SPES trinity right now and I hate it. It's way too heavy, too bulky, and it impedes my ability to move my shoulders in a lot of ways any time I'm using my jacket. I'm looking for something lighter so I was thinking something like one of these three. I like the minimalist look of the bottom SPES cover but I feel like one of the overlays would be better in the long run.
Also getting kind of specific here. How would these fit on one of the AF 350n masks? Size medium
Get the PBT, they are good quality, offer good protection, are not overly heavy and they will fit your mask. And get a different mask if you intend for longsword or polish saber, your 350N will be problematic
350N and 1600N are just a reference for the bib not for the mesh. 1600N and quality mesh is what you want for steel in general.
German Uhlmann and Allstar seem to be the most durable, Leon Paul also has a good name, but I got no first hand experience with them.
What would be a good replacement for longsword? My AF took a slight bend in the mesh a few months back and just today after class the rod in the back of the head tongue snapped so now it sits way too loose on my head meaning I'm going to need a new mask and BoH protection.
I know Allstars are nice but it's hard to tell which one I should go for since their descriptions and site is kinda lacking. Leon Pauls are great of course but I can't blow $265 on just the mask alone. How are the PBT masks?
For HEMA you'll want epee masks (the ones without all the conductive crap).
If you can afford it i think the Leon Paul with removable lining so you can wash it without having to toss the whole mask in the washing machine may be a good choice, though they're working on HEMA specific masks ATM.
Allstar also has something like that, though the bib can't be washed and it has some problems. The way it's attached has a somewhat pointy leather end that has scratched a hole on the surface of my jacket, and one of the velcro strips that hold it broke and i had to reattach it to the rivet.
Stay the fuck out of reach. If all is fair, use the Gaysler. if not, try to provoke an attack (whilst controlling the distance) and counter. Thrusting can be very effective.
If you get into the bind, you are basically allready beaten.
I like the Uhlmann's personally. Measure your head (around the chin and top of your head) and translate it to the appropriate size. You can adapt the form a bit by kneading the mesh under your knee. Allstar the Same. PBT is ok tier, the mask has a bit of a moonface (ok thats only aesthetics) and the grill is good enough, albeit the Germans are imho a bit better.
The newton ratings are for the bib, it's the force used in the testing and certification of them.
Meshes have two levels, which IIRC are just called level 1 and level 2, with 2 being the sturdier.
To the best of my knowledge there's nothing demanding that a 1600N bib be paired with a lvl2 mesh, but it seems like that's just how things are done with the big makers. Likewise with a 350N bib a lvl1 mesh is probably to be expected.
Then people go form expecting a lvl2 mesh with a 1600N bib to thinking that's actually part of the spec, and we get all this confusion.
>You can adapt the form a bit by kneading the mesh under your knee
And don't be surprised if you need to do a lot of it to get the damn thing to fit.
Not this guy >>925982, but looking for thoughts on an arming sword or messer for i33, something that will stand up for a few years of regular training and sparring.
Albion and Ensifer are great, but a bit expensive for what they are. Danelli is similarly excellent, his basic arming and messer lack the flair of his sideswords and basket hilts- he seems more about Renaissance and complex-hilted types which don't fit with i33.
So what else is there? Regenyei has a reputation for breakages, Pavel Mov for softer blades that burr and chip easily. Lutel and Fabri Armorium seem to be closer to re-enactment in purpose, with heavier, less flexible blades. But, I'm going on reviews that in some case go back a decade. What do i33 practitioners think of the current offerings?
>Regenyei has a reputation for breakages,
That is not quite right, Peter had a problem with the rolled tips of his blades, he solved that one quite some time ago afaiaao plus always replaced the faulty blades with no questions asked.
Still I'd go for the Ensifers, they are the best sparring messers I ever saw.
>Regenyei has a reputation for breakages
Bullshit. Regenyei makes very strong and reliable blades. You can find broken examples of any maker's swords. Regenyei are one of the most popular so it makes sense if there have been more breakages, there's more of them.
Again, Peter did indeed have issues with breakages when he started out, if I remember correctly the heat treatment for the rolled points left some of them them too brittle and prone to breakage.
He solved this years ago, and he replaced every blade that was affected got replaced by him at his own cost. I haven't heard of any problems with his blades ever since.
Good to know, I was hoping for recent confirmation that this was an old issue. I have to admit I have pic related on order but would like some idea of how far I can push it, if you understand me. And, yeah, probably not as far as the Ensifer messer. Just want to see what's out there just under that level.
Yeah, there's a difference between stiff to work the bind and stiff that it can't be used in sensible sparring. I'm talking arming swords, not feders, though- a longer blade has more leeway for flex, it seems so many one handers hit like stabby crowbars in effect even if well designed.
(case in point, I will admit to liking my hanwei for training due to stiffness but wouldn't trust it to even the most relaxed freeplay stabby)
Anyone have any 'unorthodox' blades made traditionally by a smith? Things like the wicked tipped falchions in the Majdslhfojdshfshfjskie Bible and certain messers, like this.
From experience training before we even had decent simulators, you can do quite a bit if you let the arms flex instead of the blade. It's not as safe and it's on the attacker to do, but it's doable.
Though obviously i wouldn't do it in a tournament.
What do you mean by "understood"? Anyway umbrella falchions whitout a point and a break-in near the tip were quite common in the XIII century, the Maciejowski one is just the edgiest one.
fuck you, you don't own this thread. i'm asking for people's opinions and experiences becuase i am curious and i don't know what i'm walking into. if you have nothing else to say then kindly stfu and let someone else answer
A very large HEMA club. That does Sabre and Longsword on alternating nights. Not much to say really. Quite expensive as i remember I think it's about £12 a night. Not 100% on that though. It was my first night there so I was surprised I had to pay at all but I don't blame them they must make a fortune off one time wonders.
It's in a church hall that's pretty easy to find by HEMA standards.
You guys know swords, maybe you can help me.
Where can I find reproductions of Qin/Han longswords? I've found reference to 90+cm blades, but never a complete reproduction in bronze, and sources available are either the artifacts or the (fantastical) vases.
>but never a complete reproduction in bronze
Do you mean just a cheap repro or a combat ready one?
There's probably no market for anything beyond wall hangers or demo weapons for Wushu competition.
>Where can I find reproductions of Qin/Han longswords?
They seem to be the only people making Han dynasty stuff. Most of the Chinese repros go for later periods.
Jin Shi made good Han swords before they went under. It's a long shot, but you could also try to hunt one of those down.
Only guy that comes to mind for good bronze is Neil Burrdige. He doesn't have anything Chinese for sale though, but it might be worth a shot asking if a decent wad of cash would make him change that.
I'm sorry, you're talking to someone other than the guy asking for information. But please, continue to prove me right.
You are the greatest blight on HEMA at large. Arrogant, elitist assholes. You're worse than the sportfencers.
Everyone here's a fucking faggot.
Anyway, let's talk about sword maintenance for a bit. I just got my first ever feder in recently, and I'm not real sure how to go about caring for it, or at least making sure it doesn't fall apart on me. I know generally that you're supposed to oil it after using it, but is that more complicated than it sounds? Is there anything I need to make sure I don't do, or something non-obvious that I need to do? Does the type of oil matter? I've heard some people use waxes. Do you have to be careful with leather grips, or wire wrapped ones?
And what about burrs and nicks? Do you just grab a big file and go to town, or do you have to go real slowly with some fine grit sandpaper? Do you have to treat feders differently than, say, rapiers?
What's your routine for this? What sort of stuff do you use?
Care for training swords depends a lot on your climate. If it's dry you might not need to oil them very often if at all, at worst getting some superficial oxidation. If it's wet, and specially wet and salty you'll want to oil them very often (after each use is probably a safe bet). If somebody grabs the blade with the naked hand at the very least rub some cloth over it ASAP, ideally oil it (if you're doing it after every use, just keep at it).
Burrs and sandpaper aren't friends, big ones will rip sandpaper apart. A file is perfectly fine, just make sure you're not creating any sharp edges by filing. Also sometimes you might want to hammer the burrs instead.
Just make sure it won't rip anybody's jacket by sliding, don't try to make it perfect or anything. The more you try to make it perfect the more material you'll be removing and the less the sword will last.
Personally i hardly ever oil my swords since it's pretty dry here. If there's some oxide i use an abrasive rubber to remove it then oil it. With rather extreme oxidation i grab fine sandpaper, but so far i've only had to do this to a reenactment knife that came inside the scabbard and probably didn't agree with the leather.
For nicks and burrs i have even less of a routine, but i do tend to take a good look pretty much whenever i grab the sword. Running a gloved hand over the "edges" and seeing if anything seems too nasty might be better than looking though. Also check the hilt too, i've had some nasty ones on the cross.
File the nicks out with a file every now and then, oil your blade with Ballistol and wipe off the excess, in case got rust, use a rust eraser.
WD-40 is not recommended, for this, as it does not build a protective layer.
After training I check for anything I wouldn't like to press into my skin and saw back and forth a bit, file it off if I find it. Otherwise the dents are left as they are.
Then I wipe the blade down with oil and that's it. Same deal for my saber and I.33 one hander, and I'd do the same to a rapier. To turn it into caring for old blades, clean off the old oil with denatured alcohol or so, then re-oil. And use something that won't leave lint or fibres or so on the blade to oil with, those can be rust initiators.
A light oil like WD-40 or 5-56 isn't ideal, it'll bugger off on its own pretty quickly. Might work for a feder though, since you're probably cleaning it frequently.
I had a bit of Japanese sword oil left over from my iaido days (and in between, caring for my various antique swords). Time proven, not expensive in any way for the baseline stuff (a bottle last bloody forever), smells nice (clove scented). But in no way necessary for a feder, you can probably get away with whatever here.
Getting your grip soaked in oil will probably make it oily. So don't. Contrary to training, the oil won't outright attack your grip though (or it'd probably come with a pretty big warning label about keeping far away from your own skin, eyes, etc). Make sure to use just a small amount of oil on whatever you're wiping it on with, if it starts moving around on its own you're using way too much.
A hint for your damaged cordwrap,
mix 7 parts bees wax with 2 parts colophony, melt it together and form sticks from the cooling mass.
If you rub it over damaged spots in the wrap they will close automatically. just give it a few good twists in the direction of the wrapping, the friction and warmth will rub the wax in and they damaged fibers line up and close the damaged part.
Just get any old hockey gloves for starters. You are probably getting hit in the hand because your guard isn't in the right place. Really make sure you are trying to catch the opponent's blade in the middle of your sword at a kind of scissors angle.
well here's the thing, we have only one HEMA place in the city, actually in whole country we have two connected clubs and they are literally fake, mcdojo type, cash grab, flamboyant assholes. So how could i really get into this?
Find more people and start another club.
Travel to any events you can and look for beginner classes, find decent clubs that you can visit sometime to help you start up, work straight from whichever source interests you, pay somebody knowledgeable to come over and give you a weekend seminar, etc.
So first step, pick a weapon and/or tradition. Since you're new you might screw up and end up liking something else, but that's quite unavoidable.
I'm practicing I.33, and I'm good enough at binding, shield striking and shit. But I have some issues at stepping out of the line.
So I guess I have to do more footwork drills and focused exercises. Right? Any tips on exercises I should do?
Maybe he is just surprised that HEMA made it to Turkey, after all it is still a niche "sport".
DESU I had the same reaction when I read it first.
You could try to start with sports fencing and then switch to Italian school, bcause starting outright with no expirience is hard.
Hey, I want to get a sword hema ready, but not a feder. Something that look's like a sword, as if it could be used for reconstitution. The one I got is too rigid, not enought flexible for stabing. Is there is something such as that ? Are those worse for sparing compared to the feder ?
Szymon Chlebowski made some nice ones, i believe Danelli could do it too (for quite a bit more money i'd expect), Viktor Berbekucz has a supposedly flexible and cheap HEMA longsword in his store, though nowadays it'd be considered on the short side (~120cm IIRC).
Chlebowski is good and cheap but takes ages to deliver usually (and doesn't seem to be able to give you a realistic delivery date). Berbekucz is cheap and so far has delivered in a reasonable time, but he's a bit lower quality, his crosses seem to bend and dent quite easily. I don't have a Danelli yet but he seems quite high quality from what i've seen, but you certainly pay for it.