>>118608623 It's not just the RM but also all the inherited knowledge, mastery of projection, and having Rin for a teacher/prana battery. UBW Shirou is gonna become some scary shit, especially if Rin can make him not totally suck at anything not sword.
>>118608920 If a Fate 2 ever happens there needs to be a Taiga route where Shirou gets sent back in time because Zelrerch thought it would be funny and he proceeds to fall in love with his Fuji-nee without realizing it's her.
>>118608980 >Who knows, in HF it explicitly tells you he seals off his RM. Maybe it isn't permanent. That's because of GARm, not because of ideals. He no longer has GARm by the ending. >>118609034 Hahahaha
>>118608980 >Who knows, in HF it explicitly tells you he seals off his RM. No HF tells you he couldn't use UBW since his and Archer's worlds are too different which renders it unusable. He still has his own RM.
>>118608980 Shirou with Archer's arm is stronger than end of route UBW Shirou.
UBW Shirou has exceedingly the most potential to become strongest, though. I mean HF Shirou post-time skip is still barely back to functioning normal. By that time UBW Shirou is well on his way to mastering his RM.
>>118609353 >It's true though But it's not. RMs are a reflection of the inner world, not the sum of the life. The inner world and the sum of the life are entirely different things. The former is transient, the latter is an infinite response.
Being content with her continuous loss is not enough to make it no longer loss. And being loved by Shiki probably won't give her back more than she lost when Roa bit her. But who knows how Nasu will work with it?
>>118609541 No, it's not just Shiki. Even having the highest potential for becoming a DAA, she sets out to become a great vampire and dies in less than a week. It's part of her to be unable to gain what she wants, and instead lose it.
>>118609697 >Your inner world is literally the story of your life. Citation needed. >It isn't transient at all. It's within you at all times. Sorry, I used the wrong word. Transient was the first thing that came to mind for "Not necessarily effected by all possible events". The inner world can be completely revolutionized, but the history of the life can't.
I was arguing with the argument, not the point they were trying to back up. >>118609805 Unlimited SAVER Works
>>118609440 Shirou is a projection savant one way or another, he'll just have a different reality marble to correspond to a different internal world. He is pretty much a Hero, a living legend, the only reason he isn't as strong as other heroic spirits is because heroic spirits aren't the original person but a manifestation of the legend which is obviously filled with hype and hyperbole.
Just how it is. It's the reason HF Shirou is incompatible with Archer's internal world. Their lives are different and so their worlds are different. Unlimited Blade Works is "the answer obtained by the one who lived as a sword all his life". Living a different life means a different answer. It's not clear just how different things have to be to actually change the shape of their world, but HF Shirou's world is changed the most of anyone's.
>"Not necessarily effected by all possible events". The inner world can be completely revolutionized, but the history of the life can't.
Pretty sure the narrative of the story can take huge shifts with even single sentences, so yes, the story of your life can be reshaped in a single night. It would mean you'd have to have a pretty shitty night, but it's entirely possible.
>>118610023 Hi. You must be new here. You need to understand that Shirou's "projection" isn't actually projection. It's actually an unknown/unnamed magic.
For Shirou, "projecting" weapons is a two-step process, in magic terms: One, the "unknown magic" which creates permanent solid objects out of literally nothing, but are "hollow". Two, he "projects" copies of something from his inner world (UBW) over the objects.
He doesn't actually do the two steps one after another. Rather, it's a technique where one aspect of it relies on the other. Just like how strengthening requires you to analyze the structure of the object before pumping magic into it. In practice, he does both steps at once.
Normal projection depends on having materials which represent the magical qualities of the thing you want to project, but Shirou basically makes the thing, including whatever mana is in it, from scratch, out of mana. If he put his mind to it, he could shit out Caliburns and be a perpetual mana factory, as long as there were a way to extract Caliburn's mana charge.
>>118610226 >Shirou denying his true self and putting on a mask He's not denying what he wants to do, he rejects part of it, because he feels that is the only way. Both the mask and his "true self" are the real Shirou.
>>118610248 >Unlimited Blade Works is "the answer obtained by the one who lived as a sword all his life". Obviously you don't understand the dude's argument because that literally does not contradict what he said at all.
>>118610091 Wrong on two accounts. Firstly although his steps to projection aren't directly related to his RM the ability to analyze and store the weapons he sees is. Moreover, the materials used in the "forging" of the weapon are extracted from within UBW as well.
Secondly heroes were for the most part even more absurd than their Servant incarnations since they generally had higher stats AND access to all if not most of their NPs.
>>118610449 His ability to analyze weapons are a result of him being a sword and having an aptitude for all sword related things. Although he relies on his RM for 'pulling' information about swords that he shouldn't have access to, he's fully capable of cultivating that knowledge on his own. His RM is just a database, it doesn't change the fact that he's able to projects imaginary objects into existence all on his own.
They are projections pulled from the hill of swords. They aren't real, and they shatter the moment they change from Shirou's mental image. Every single point of them is a "point weak to death". Damage anywhere obliterates them.
>>118606663 Isn't dimming on action scenes there to prevent people from getting epileptic? Most fast scenes or scenes with flickering lights are dimmed. It's in the opening, too. I doubt they will remove it.
>>118610869 Some people have the misguided notion that Shirou is a naturally good person, which is untrue. His pleasure derives from the happiness of others, like Kotomine's derives from the suffering of others.
But looking at them is not the same as looking at an actual divine mystery, because understanding the death of a projection is a lot easier than understanding the death of an ancient super powered magical artifact. Even if the projection is a perfect replication of a super powered magical artifact, it is not actually a super powered magical artifact, it is just a projection. It lives and dies like a projection (very quickly). The death perceived by Shiki would be the death of a projection, not a divine mystery.
>>118609131 They're called Aristotles because they're quasi-immortal lifeforms that are the sum of the potential of each planet in our solar system. Aristotle was an astrologer with a taste for that weird semi-scientific philosophy that preceded science, and his name fit well as a class of beings.
ORT is the only one active in the "present day" of the Nasuverse.
>>118610996 If they're the sum of each planets potential then wouldn't they all be pieces of trash except for the one that correlates with earth? What worth is there is some shitty desolate planet with no meaningful life forms?
>>118610662 He doesn't have his own smile. Any sort of smiles he gives are an act to make others around him at ease, which satisfies his need to keep people happy. Also >>118610726 is right, Shirou died in the fire and was reborn, and adopted Kiritsugu's flawed ideal for himself because it appeared to make him happy.
Shirou is a fucked-up person, and sees himself really as only a means to an end. It's why he has such an affinity for swords; they're tools with no inherent purpose (just what others need them for), and Shirou makes lifeless copies of them for the sake of his fake ideals.
Planets are a lot cooler in Type-Moon than they are IRL. They're each a walking universe that defines reality as they please, morphing reality around themselves to obey their homeworld's preferred physics. They're basically walking conceptual spaces.
>>118611189 I don't understand what you're saying here. Shirou would certainly sacrifice himself for others; he does it multiple times throughout the VN. Just because he derives pleasure from seeing other people happy does not mean he's a bad person nor does it devalue the way he goes out and helps other people.
>>118611105 Compared to humans they are strong Compared to - Legendary heroes from the age of gods - Ancient Vampires with reality marbles of their own - Some OP slider wizard guy with infinite prana - the Archetypes of different planets He's weak as a fly.
>>118611294 Ones own internal world is a living thing, constantly changing. Everyone has an internal world. The Sum of ones life is a final, static answer, that one arrives at at the end of his life. Shirou has an internal world but he hasn't yet found his answer.
>>118611166 Actually, it's BECAUSE Earth harbors life that it's so weak. It became a planet that supports life, so a lot of its potential was used up, and it can't create its own Type/Aristotle. It uses Type Moon to keep itself safe from normal life, which Aristotles fear, so TM created the True Ancestors of the vampires to patrol Earth. Gaia, taking the hint, created the being Primate Murder (which is exactly as fun for people as you'd think), which TM keeps as a panic button for humanity getting fresh.
All of this creation leaves Gaia and TM pretty low-tier in terms of potential, though. ORT (which is actually Type Mercury) is about on par with Type Moon, but it's not really interested in much other than colonizing a South American forest and making it "Mercury."
The bigger planets though have insanely powerful Types. When Gaia dies, but notices humans are still alive, it freaks out and calls for help from the Types. They put then entire planet at siege, and only a few finicky Conceptual Weapons can hurt them.
>>118611708 Can you blame him when people keep asking for definite answers about a setting where things are decided not by power-levels but by situation advantages and comparability between different powers?
>>118611658 >Q.志貴と士郎の主人公コンビはどちらのほうが強いんですか？ 純粋に力と力で戦った場合、直視の魔眼と魔術を用いて闘った場合はどちらが上か教えて下さい。 >（東京都／ぎった） >A.異能力全開、という、終わった後にオーバーフローによる自滅を無視すれば志貴でしょうか。士郎がどれほど剣製したところで片っ端から“殺して”いきますから。士郎がエクスカリバーのような“魔力放出”が可能なら、また話は違ってくるのですが。 It's Tsukihime Shiki and F/sn Shirou using their full power not hypothetical strongest. Also it's doesn't necessary mean that Shiki would die after battle because of overflow.
>>118611976 >>118612001 >>118611993 Ryougi void can literally kill anything. If Nanaya's too fast, she can kill "distance". If he's too agile, she can kill his "skill." Hell, I'm sure she can kill his MEoDP if she really wanted to. Void Ryougi is OP as shit
>>118611582 >The facts are, Shirou refers to UBW both as his internal world and as the sum of his life. So we can assume that it is both, even if the two are different. It's only necessarily true for UBW Shirou, who is basically the perfection of the ideal and "completes" struggling with his ideal relatively early on compared to the non-route Shirous.
>>118612083 She's not that weak. And her MEoDP greatly outclass Shiki's. If she kills the distance between them she could instantly land a hit. Nanaya is a master assassin, and he has ways to win, but Shiki is just OP as shit. If he doesn't kill her in one move, he dies.
>>118612141 >her Sword would be gone the second she even gets in range.
Tohno never kills Roa's knife. Targeting your foe's weapon while they're swinging ain't easy. And if we're talking about the Kanesada, isn't that basically a low-quality noble phantasm that has survived to the modern era? It's probably pretty hard to kill.
>>118612141 Same could be said about Shiki's knife. If you're going to mention Nanaya, the alternate personality, and count that as "Shiki", might as well bring in Spiral of Origin Akasha Ryougi Shiki too. Who's essentially god.
Don't get me wrong. I fucking hate streams, and Kiss is a terrible site, but this proves the point. http://kissanime.com/Anime/Gekijouban-Kara-no-Kyoukai-The-Garden-of-Sinners/Movie-Epilogue?id=25643 Starting at 12:08 She's literally omnipotent in Origin form.
>>118612234 And when they write a sequel about Shiki 3 years later, we can bring that into consideration.
>>118612485 If you seriously believe Nanaya is different Shiki you are wrong unless you are stating the manifestation in KT or MB Nanaya Shiki. Ryougi is still human, and can be killed. Void Ryougi is almost as strong as Ciel full power with all her gear not to mention Gods or "Divine Spirits" since there is only one God in the nasuverse are not the strongest and can be killed.
>>118612638 >Same for Ryougi. She can just kill their origins, same as Shiki >And while Shiki has an alt form that's an assassin with incredible physicial strength Ryougi's alt is literally god.
>Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants? >A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko. >If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.
>....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.
You'll do untold mental gymnastics to say "No, but that's wrong, she's a god", but that's not how it works. Even if you put something unlimited into a limited container, it's inherently limited because the container itself can only express so much power due to set limitations.
This is a major plot point at the end of HF, even if you combine a human with something theoretically infinite, a human is inherently finite, they can't go beyond certain thresholds even if you jam something bigger than them into them. Because they can only express so much, they are inherently not infinite.
Shiki Ryougi by Nasu's own words is not god, she cannot rewrite or destroy the universe, she cannot do some of what she claims, she is not all powerful. Even if the root is all things, if it's being channeled through a human body it is inherently limited, like a dam of water trying to come through a tiny faucet.
>>118612771 No, alternate personality is separate personality from your main one. When one is in control the other is sleeping. Female Ryougi have no memories of what SHIKI is doing when he's in control. Shiki T. remember exactly what he's doing in Nanaya mode and is in control
>Yeah no. Full power Ryougi is True Magic tier strong. True Magic can also be killed as well. Just because you know True Magic doesn't mean you have no concept of death as well. Not to mention that I'm refrencing the interview where Nasu said who else can kill servants. Void Shiki can go up to Ciel-class.
>>118613150 The open grass field where he met Aoko. While he who possesses an affinity for death, his past is linked to a bright, grassy field full of life and nature ("Classic"). Compared to Shirou, whose power deals in creation, is linked to a decidedly unnatural, desolate field of swords ("Unlimited blade works"). Furthermore, Shiki's field is linked directly to his past (the place he met Aozaki Aoko), while Shirou's is more inclined towards his future (he learned about his Reality Marble from his future self).
>>118612948 >>118613290 >>118612806 >>118612949 You are now aware that Ryougi Shiki has almost always been useless in a physical match and her wins are virtue of the writer's devotion to the character and her power which annuls threats before they can bring her to great harm. The servants would be weakened severely before they'd ever come close to using their ability on Mama Shiki.
>>118613550 I say Nanaya forest is more likely. He dream about it all the time >It was a dark night. In the middle of the night, I thought I heard a noise and I woke up. >The tatami room was otherwise empty. It seems at some point, all the adults went outside. I was a little uneasy all by myself.I went outside to the garden to see where they went. >The night itself feels frozen by the winter cold. My breath hangs white in the air. The garden is cold, but at the same time, the sky was beautiful. The expression "freezing cold" seems to have been made up just for this winter night. The cold stars. The deep darkness. Illuminating this world is the lifeless moonlight. >For a child like myself, the mansion's garden is too big. A dense forest encloses the garden. The mansion is deep in the mountains, and to be honest, is no place for anyone to live. The mansion is in the very heart of a dark forest. It is... like the light of a luminescent fish at the bottom of the ocean. >The darkness of the forest swells deeply. The trees are like a black curtain trying to reach for the moon. I heard a noise, and was convinced the adults must have gone into the forest. I enter the forest. >Not even a single ray of light exists in this darkness. Unable to even see my own body, I walk towards the sound. It's just cold. Even my eyes become numb. I feel as if someone is calling my name
>>118613971 I know, in the same way I suppose you don't really need a guide for F/SN. But I liked having the flowchart that way I avoided the bad ends until I finished the main story, then I later came back an played all the bad ends.
>>118612984 It's both. When he taps into his instincts and the forgotten memories that manifest at the end of Ciel's route/that one drugged conversation with SHIKI (that gets mentioned in MBAA) seem to be two side of the same coin.
>>118610832 >damage anywhere obliterates them That's not how it works. Shirou's copies disappear because he subconsciously rejects them when they don't hold up to what his image of them should be able to do. Archer's swords don't suffer from that issue and are just as durable as other NPs because his conceptualization of the weapons is much more precise, and Shirou himself stops having that problem in UBW during his fight with Archer (where he wills his last copy of Kanshou to stop fading and reforms it) and once he unlocks UBW and pushes Gil to destroy his own originals along with Shirou's copies. Being illusions doesn't make them fragile at all (and can actually be as sturdy as the original) so long as the projection is precise, which is part of the reason that even the world doesn't undo them despite actively trying to erase standard projections.
>>118614879 >Satsujinki [Nickname] >The state when Shiki's conscious mind goes blank due to the inversion impulse. Or, a possible future version of Tohno Shiki.
>Inversion Impulse (反転衝動, hanten shoudou?) is a state of being where one's mind is overpowered by other factors of their body. With the case of half-breed humans with Oni blood, it is that their non-human blood, their instincts, overpower their human blood, their reason. Arcueid Brunestud can possibly fall into such a state from not eating. As her form of taking in nutrition is different from that of humans, her appetite is more akin to lust, and she rarely falls into it because she does not place much priority on it. It's just Shiki going on the killing spree it's different from Ryougi alternate personalities
>>118615350 There's the times he goes apeshit, and there are two times where Nanya actually manifests. The forgotten time at the end of Ciel's route is what Shiki has forgotten and cannot be called him anymore, and there is when Nanaya fully comes out in the drugged state and has that death chat with SHIKI in Kohaku's route. Nanaya is both a state of being that Shiki taps into and an alternate set of memories. Nanaya also recalls the conversation in his route in Melty Blood when he complains that RoaSHIKI is too different from SHIKI, so it's more than Shiki being slightly bonkers.
>>118615350 That's really way too short and ambiguous with the no Servants thing to be of use. It's also like ten years old at this point, so it's quite outdated with the CCC powerlevels. We know that Void is defensive level against Servants at best, so she's shit. She's worse than Melty Blood and Fate/Extra's OP versions of regular Ryougi.
>>118615687 >respective series >not counting Servants Can all wreck Ryougi Shiki easily. Unless she can somehow channel all of Akasha without self destructing then maybe. Neko-Arc and Magical Amber are pretty broken though.
>>118615585 Well yeah but it's still different from Ryougi alternate personalities. Ryougi was 3 different people living in one body. Tohno mind was separate in two, before he "died" and after. It's still the same personality though
>>118616297 after the nanaya clan was destroyed, he forgot everything from before and developed a new personality. if shiki nanaya is to go by since he's a what if he lived as a nanaya, he's personality as shiki tohno is very different from who he was before.
>>118616489 No, Shiki there is Shiki who "died" in that courtyard (that's why he also have scar). Shiki before Tohno Shiki >Hey, excuse yourself. I'm a year older than you, you know. Tohno Shiki is only eight years old, right? With that in mind, I have existed for almost nine years.
>>118617499 Huh? >if shiki nanaya is to go by since he's a what if he lived as a nanaya I didn't agree with this. Everything that Nanaya is "made" of comes from Shiki Tohno. There's no what if there, because Shiki wouldn't know how would he grow up with Nanayas. Nanaya Shiki is Tohno Shiki fear of becoming a killer.
>>118617807 In one of them, yes. Except for the Age of Gods, that was retconned into existence by collective belief. It's usually easier to get a catalyst from your own world, though. Archer being an exception to that.
>>118617744 >Everything that Nanaya is "made" of comes from Shiki Tohno not really since he could still access memories from when he was a child or rather his nanaya personality.(like full knowledge of the human anatomy) when he goes demon-hunter mode his simply tapping on his other personalities knowledge.
>>118618593 Those are his memories, Makihisa hypnosis sealed them off but they are still there. After Tsukihime he remember it all >Shiki: You’re-Kishima, Kouma. >Kouma: I was just going to disappear in few minutes, but I see we meet. Is this fate, Tohno- no, rather, son of Nanaya Kiri? >Shiki: -Who knows. I didn’t really want to meet anyway. >…… In fact, I was thinking it would be good if we didn’t. >Kouma: Shall we part? It seems neither of us wished to meet here. >Shiki: Too late. You’ve said a name you shouldn’t have. After hearing that, I can’t let this pass. >Kouma: I see you have some backbone left. Well then- Follow in the footsteps of your father, brat……!
>>118618944 >Is it about time? There is no pain or emotion as my body fades. I thought it would be closer to death, but it is no different than a dream. >You escaped death, Tohno. If you still feel strongly about your father’s death, you should come to my forest. You should find your answer from that night-
He only reached his limit and gave up pursuing it. That was his only flaw as a human, and it was not a flaw in his ideals.
What Shirou says there is a sugar-coated version of the same ideals, or even a recession of them. >Even if the best possible outcome has someone get hurt to save many others, I still want to pursue a resolution where nobody is hurt. Where exactly lies a resolution where nobody is hurt, if the best possible resolution involves hurting someone? A resolution where you refuse to significantly improve the status quo, to significantly decrease the amount of group suffering, just for the sake of a single, comparatively worthless, person?
Shirou can go fuck himself.
Kiritsugu's ideals were the apex of utilitarianism.
>>118621453 I wish I was part of an interesting fictional universe and I had a role to preform and things to do. I don't even want to be the strongest to super special or anything I just want to be a character.
>>118622137 Age six is first grade of elementary school and that's when they teach you to read and write, I learned it along with everyone else in my class. I guess some kids learned it in kindergarten but I didn't.
>>118622539 Shiki can kill anyone and anything. That is, as long as he can touch it. There's nothing stopping Shiki from killing Gil theoretically, but in practice Shiki would get torn to shreds before even getting close to Gil.
>>118622078 its not that farfeched though. I read something before about void in mirrormoon or nrvnqsr that everyone before we are born are connected to akasha, and when shiki was born instead of leaving completely one of her personalities got left behind hence the connection to akasha. after ryougi's coma she received MeoDp but ryougi's don't generally have pure eyes like the nanaya clan so that would only mean she reconnected a bit to her 3rd persona which is connected to akasha.
>>118622745 We're talking about different shiki's anon. >>118622851 I can see Gil underestimating the shit out of Shiki and dying from the flash run/flash sheathe bullshit, Shiki is pretty good at dodging things.
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