Guide (Start here): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G5C7fCe07CDzYalZYZObzxv_fhw7RUNsLHiMAY-t7FA
DJT Reading List (Add what you read here):
Resources: http://pastebin.com/RTdXaGFC (mobile devices: http://pastebin.com/vsrmzgNd)
Anki Startup Guide: http://pastebin.com/dDGCTkSC
Big manga list doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ltt5C88tgTyk5oFw5q8Iv9jVhNi6fyZomankoXdhlFssvHFwE
Previous thread: https://archive.moe/a/thread/118007901
>Do you guys still forget shit? I'm only two days into Kanji/Vocab, but I still feel really bad about forgetting shit.
Take some amphetamines.
Mmm, not quite? Stroke order isn't so tough. Radicals all have the same stroke order and they're universally present in Kanji. The tough part is remembering exactly what radicals were where in a kanji.
Dictionary of Japanese Grammar.
So is /pol/ going to actually try to "strike back" now?
>need to look up word
>Jisho is down
>completely fucked by this
持っていく is "go somewhere while carrying something. Like "take something and go with it somewhere".
手をつないでいく might be "going somewhere while holding hands", but the -ていく can also indicate that it'll be happening in the future, which is what I think it means in your case.
Because you have ひとつずつ (one by one) and 手をつないでいくの... the meaning will be "one by one people will start holding hands". Or like "more and more people will hold hands as time goes on" etc.
By the way -てくる can be used to indicate that something has happened. Like 私の病気は悪化してきた。 - "My illness has gotten worse worse".
Anyway, another reason why I think your case is the "will be happening in the future" thing is because the いく is not written using kanji.
What's the first kanji in this? I'm getting fucked on radical searches and can't find it.
This shouldn't be happening, I'm so deep into this shit ;_;
It's an exception.
Exceptions are pretty rare, overall. To be reasonably sure you haven't met one, look up the stroke order for all the radicals/kanji which don't visibly consist from other radicals or the readicals/kanji which you haven't seen written yet when you meet them; to be really, 99% sure, check out anything that seems funny or kinda confusing to you, if you're sure you know how to write this one, you most likely do know it, and if you aren't sure (i.e., it breaks some patterns), it mostly likely is still written in the most boring and consistent way possible, but when you've seen it written one time, the "exception" usually works the same in every other kanji too.
There are a few exceptions even from these rules (e.g., left and right), but they're pretty rare, at least from those kanji I've studied the stroke order of, i.e. about half of Jouyou.
I'm going through RTK, so it could be that the pattern just utterly breaks closer to the end, but I really doubt it.
I'll be on the country side next week and I can only bring camera and my DS for entertainment. Do you guys approve of My Japanese Coach DS? I'm not so advanced yet but I can make sentences like 彼女は私に指輪呉れて貰った。
>Do you guys approve of My Japanese Coach DS
Er... no. It might be marginally better than nothing, but I doubt it. It might be better to print a bunch of kanji detailed sheets from RTK or somesuch and bring them with you.
He probably associated it with 日 or 月 or 田 which are written beginning with vertical, which they do because the second stroke goes both horizontal and vertical, as the first stroke in 母 goes. When it doesn't, the horizontal stroke is usually the first, though.
Overall, he's right, and I was confused about the same thing for a really long time. This kanji is just an exception, overall.
Since no one responded, I guess no one knows. Well, I skipped it and saw the kanji again. Turns out it's - 吸い付く. Not sure why it's drawn like that. Oh well!
I imagine playing a Japanese game at a low level with no access to a dictionary would be pretty hellish.
The DS dictionary would take too much effort to constantly switch too, I imagine.
I tried to look it up.
I would've never guessed, even though it does kinda look like it.
It doesn't help that just 口 is used too much to be useful (my dictionary has about 1000 kanji with it) and the second part looks really much like 反 but is not this radical.
So, I guess, thanks for telling me 及 can be written this way? Custom fonts are really the worst. No wonder Japan has so few of them.
One thing that's more confusing about kanji is the combination of on/kun and it's meaning.
For example: 寝取られ
寝 means sleep
取 means take
but 寝取られ means "stealing loved ones from a person" so it should have a different kanji. It's killing me.
You're welcome; it is the 及 radical. I only realized it 'cuz 吸 was present in both the Jisho searches. Indeed, fuck custom fonts. I'm sure someone very familiar with Japanese is gonna pop in and say that's a common style, though.
>>need to look up word
>>Jisho is down
>>completely fucked by this
Not owning a real japanese/kanji dictionary. shig dog diggity.
Seriously printed media exist also cant you download J-DICT and use it offline?
I guess comparing kanji to an English translation is not good. So if 寝 means 'the act of lying down' and 取 is 'to take' (probably take the hymen etc) that makes sense I guess.
I used to think the same, but then I realized I become too dependent on just looking things up so quickly that I stopped tying to memorize things. Now I only use physical because i know it takes more effort and is less efficient so I typically put more effort into remembering words I look up.
I look up words via radical search and manual typing, not rikai or ITH or some such. I honestly don't see how looking down a huge list of words, trying to wrap my head around radical order / their kana order will help me too much.
>looking at the guide
>"You may want to simply use the shared deck for Anki"
>There isn't a link to that in the resources list
What is this mysterious deck? I know there is a kanjidamage deck for anki, but I don't know how "Shared" comes in to play here.
There is no point in kanji is you don't know the words associated with them. What is the point of learning 章or 品 if you don't even know any words that use those kanji. Once you know the word 商品 you already learned both kanji. However, the reverse is not true, you can know both 商 and 品 individually as kanji but you might not know that both of them together make up a common word.
Wasn't this argument won ages ago? That is why no one does RTK or Kanji Damage.
I haven't finished Core yet, but I started out using it alongside a KD deck. I felt like the KD deck was useless as most of the things I was learning with the KD deck I was learning about with the Core deck, but in a less convoluted manner.
My visual memory is pretty good, I just need a lot of practice and that's it.
If I feel like I'm missing something Kanji-wise I'll surely give it another go.
I made the mistake of doing kanji damage before getting grammar and vocab down. I wont say it was a wasted 3 months because I learned a lot about radicals and mnemonic devices but it is the inefficient route.
With Grammar and Vocab at the very least you will be able to understand spoken Japanese.
Individual kanji study is really more of a late game thing. You will natually pick up the 500-1000 most common kanji if you just spend more time learning the language.
yeah, and the thing is, just learning to write kanji (with proper stroke order) all but guarantees you'll learn the patterns and radicals.
unfortunately there's this new "why learn to write, we have computers" thing going on these days. (it's similar to the "why learn arithmetic, we have calculators" mentality, keeping people retarded)
I keep telling people there are easier ways to fapp to Chinese cartoons if that is all they want to learn japanese for.
If you are going to learn the language at least be able to read and write it.
No extra time at all if you are already writing as a way of learning kanji. I don't get it, people doing 1000+ anki cards per 30 min by holding down enter really think that is practice? I set aside only 30 min to go over the new kanji I have learned in the past week. Once you know the stroke order you don't need weird nmumonics, once you learn to write all the radicals all kanji are pieces of cake to write. Only the new ones will give you problems.
If you can't write in a language you can't call yourself fluent or literate, period. Stop being a fucking child and accept the fact that being able to write in the target language is just as important as every other aspect of the language.
If an adult were able to read, speak, and comprehend spoken English, but they weren't able to write a sentence properly, I'd consider them borderline retarded.
Knowing the kanji in a word you don't know makes it much easier to learn, which makes it easier to pick up new words you see while reading.
From core 2k to 10k there are ~1100 unique kanji, and 8000 words. It would be much faster to learn those kanji on their own, or with one word, and likely more beneficial, since you don't want to learn literally all of your vocabulary from anki.
>getting mad because people learn different things than you
people have different goals and they don't care about you thinking they are fluent or not, you don't need to be autistic about it
>you don't need to be autistic about it
Being unable to write in a language you can speak, read and comprehend the spoken language of is something people may consider a symptom of a mental defect such as Autism.
You still mess up what radicals go there though. I have a copybook with all the 常用漢字(25 fucking times each, you bitch). It was fun and my handwriting is pretty good now but I wouldn't say it's very educational.
>Knowing a kanji does not make it easier to learn a word.
It does, and this is due to how the human brain handles language. You can say it doesn't all you like but the science contradicts this.
>Stop being a fucking child and accept the fact that being able to write in the target language is just as important as every other aspect of the language
But for a lot of people here it obviously isn't, unless you're only concerned about being able to label yourself "literate".
It's quite likely that I will never in my life have any reason to write kanji. So clearly it is less important for me to be able to write kanji than any other aspect of the language.
No it does not help you learn the spoken word or help to identify it in listening or speaking. All it will do is help you recognize a word when it is written. I will NOT help you learn to speak or identify the word when it is spoken.
Sad too see even after all this time, the DJT still has "definition of literacy" trolls/autists, and the djt still eats the bait. Feel free to search the archive, this topic has had thousands of posts dedicated to it.
Do whatever you want. No one has proven one method to be more efficient than the other. Just choose whichever one seems less tedious to you. Don't be like the anon in the previous thread I think it was who had restarted RtK 10 times or whatever
>No it does not help you learn the spoken word or help to identify it in listening or speaking.
Yes it does. When you hear a word your brain makes several neurological connections to recall the concept.
>using an expletive means you must be angry
The fuck cunt?
>Can you show that it's more efficient to learn kanji in isolation and learn vocabulary afterwards then it is to learn both in conjunction with each other?
Why would I? That isn't the claim I'm making.
You won't be able to write with a pen, you might mix up kanji, it will take a bit longer to learn words (but not "impossibly longer").
But you will probably be able to read and speak and listen just fine. With time.
That being able to write Japanese properly is a vital aspect of Japanese language competency, that and a lack of writing proficiency will form a bottleneck to your total language proficiency.
I only learned this one after reading the guide (which was pretty late into my studies, because I didn't know about DJT). Before I was convinced otherwise.
Maybe all these people didn't read the guide too?
Why do I see it in threads all the time then? Do you think I personally write all these posts.
Yeah, you're right, I completely forgot that it could be misinterprented. I wanted to write about it, but it just slipped my mind in the process.
Mind you, RTK takes 2 months tops with a good schedule, but learning Core is probably quicker overall.
Surely with enough practice I'll be able to differentiate Kanji, though? I guess I'll keep doing Kanji, I'm just scared I'll turn myself off from doing Japanese because of how pointless some of it is whilst I'm doing Core2k/6k.
Have you considered that possibly those people are just under the impression that one way is better for them, when in fact another way would actually help them learn faster.
I've personally jumped around to 3 different learning methods and each time I felt like "this is definitely the best way". So of course now I have to accept I might be wrong a 3rd time
It depends on what you mean by learning them in conjunction. Core takes 10,000 words to cover 2000 kanji. You could still learn those kanji through vocab but use fewer cards.
If it's more efficient to learn new words in context by reading, and if it's easier to learn new words when you already know their kanji, then it might be most efficient to use the least cards necessary to learn the kanji, and then get new words by reading.
Well, yeah, with enough practice you will. Or if you go through the radicals and learn to differentiate them.
Also, the further you go, the harder it will be to stop. Because effort justification.
Mind you, I'm doing RTK on Anki, and I think it's the better method, because it doesn't bore me out of my mind and being able to write is neat and its flaws are overblown, I think, but just saying, the further you go, the less sensible it will seem to stop. Unless you're really only beginning, then you might do like 100 to get an understanding of the way kanji work.
Also, if you do it, do it quick. It is possible and it is preferrable to lazing around. RTK only pays off all the time waste on it, if you go in half a year, max. 2 months is a perfectly normal figure, by the way.
Am I doing it right? Will I become one of you someday?
That kind of depends what you mean by "learn". Anki is great for planting the seeds of familiarity for a great many words in a short amount of time, but does it help you learn them? Isn't that something you do by reading native material after you have succinctly seeded enough words to make a bit of a spongy bed for yourself which makes the fall into native material a little bit softer?
Semantics, though, I guess.
Your question implies there's only 2 options, learn them or not.
There's a 3rd and it's actually very helpful. That is to use the meaning of kanji to drive how you think about the words. Doing it this way, you don't memorize their meanings you just gloss over them. Say you know お茶, and 色, and then you come across 茶色. If you simply glance at the meaning of the kanji you can then see a very convenient way to remember the kanji that appear in the word "light-brown".
If you start doing this you will notice tons of shortcuts like that which make memorizing the words a breeze.
It's so helpful to do it this way I can't even imagine how much more difficult of a time I would be having if I hadn't been doing this
Is the RTK deck in the guide? I'm using the KD deck but it's boring just looking at them and learning how to say them. I am only a beginner so that's probably why I'm not a fan of Kanji since the ones I'm learning are more often than not in Core2k/6k.
Only for more complicated words, I'd say. But yes, to an extent. But reading is the end goal for most of us and something we will be doing anyway, so it's not like you choose Anki instead of reading. You choose Anki to facilitate reading
I'm all for exploring options but everyone keeps telling me different things that I'm not sure what exactly to do. That's the problem I have with Japanese, there's so many ways to learn it that I'm not sure what's best for me.
Just fucking commit to something. However inefficient Rtk or Anki might be relative each other, you're going to end up wasting more time if you don't choose one alternative now and just start actually studying
>there's so many ways to learn it that I'm not sure what's best for me.
Pick one and use it till it stops working, then move onto something else.
You're not going to know what works for you until you've already spent a long time studying. There maybe be up to 10% of efficiency to be gained by methodology alone, but the rest comes down to actual time spent with the language.
The only way you'll know is by trying something that sounds attractive, analyzing what works, and doesn't work, and adjusting from there. It's how we all came to our different methods, and it's the only road a self-learner has to find theirs.
Dunno, I looked it up on the Anki site.
As a result I chose two decks: one that contains only kanji and meaning (keyword->kanji; the other way is probably more useful for recognition, because you might not remember the kanji immediately upon seeing it, but I didn't change it because this one forces me to learn them better and get creative with stories, and in 90% of cases I remember them right away anyway) and another one that has two top stories from Reviewing The Kanji site (because I was too lazy to register there, and most often two top stories are enough, and if they're not I think up my own story). I don't use the second deck for reviews because I don't want to be able to look up the story unless I have to, so I only use it for cross-referencing the stories through the browser.
Though my way is probably hella backwards. I just kinda rolled with it when I had no idea, and now I'm too lazy and it works good enough for me to change it.
I'm approaching 3 years into Japanese now, anon. I have tried many different methods by now, and have settled on one that works. You just do something, whatever it is, then improve it by adding shit that might work, removing stuff that doesn't, and just putting in time while you try that shit out.
I started because of this guy's video. It seemed fun so I'll continue until I eventually give up like with everything else.
I've used a few decks but they just don't hit the right spot for me. I'm just looking for a deck that seperates the Onyomi and Kunyomi onto different cards, but I can't find anything like that and the closest thing is Core2k/6k.
If you're doing RTK, you don't learn readings.
There are different opinions about and against RTK, but pretty much everybody agrees actually learning readings if you're going through kanji is not a good idea.
You either learn the words with readins right away through RTK, or you go through kanji with only approximate keywords as your guide, commit them to memory until both the stories and the keywords fall off to make way for pure concepts expressed by the word, and learn reading on the fly while... reading, pretty much. Or maybe going through Core2k on a turbo-pace you got because you already know the kanji, I dunno, I'm not sure about that at the moment. Reading seems like a method that would work better to me, because most manga uses furigana anyway, many VNs use voice acting, and I have a good digital dictionary + Interactive Text Hooker, but I'm not really sure how well it would work, 'cause I didn't try it.
Bottom line is, you don't learn readings. Why? Because there's lots of the words that are exceptions and a few words that have just too much readings to remember. I don't know, maybe you might be able to learn something that away, but pretty much everybody seems to think it's inefficient; I never tried, but its inefficiency makes sense to me.
If you want to learn readings right away, do Core. If you want to do kanji, drop the readings, they will just confuse you. That's my advice.
They do and yet they don't. If learning one simple meaning as a mnemonic helps you learn 50% of the words more easily that a given kanji is used in, then you should do it.
I how to write a solid 5 words or so in Chinese simply because kanji do (somewhat) have meaning. You can probably guess what these mean.
I don't even remember. I think it was some stupid banner that said "You can't learn Japanese without our help".
/a/ ran away with the phrase, and now she's a lot more powerful than she was ever supposed to be.
4chan has just created a demon. And DJT is at fault.
No, I'm not talking about Slenderman.
... Now just look what I've found while looking for the original website.
Is it what I was looking for?
You still have to learn all those readings when you learn them through core, though.
Knowing the meanings of kanji on their own would be completely useless to me, since the readings always take me longer to learn. I would much rather learn the meaning and 1 or 2 readings of 1000 kanji than the just the meanings of 2500.
They're not supposed to be "meanings" as much as figurative "hooks" for your mind to use to remember words, like >>118069176 says.
RTK pretty much works by dividing up learning what the kanji look like and how to write them, and readings with meanings, where readings have to be learnt from scratch, and meanings are learnt in 1% the time needed usually. For example, the first word in the example is "tea" and the second is "colour", and it is really easy to get "light-brown" from a "tea colour". Hell, most of the time the tea is more brown than black I think (also kinda close to red, but it won't cause much confusion, I think).
Well, except for the meanings of isolated kanji, but these are in the minority.
Though I don't know, maybe your method will work too. I just really doubt it. The readins system is just riddled with exceptions. Not a good idea.
If you're still interested, I will also notice that RTK2 teaches exactly reading. I didn't use, but you might want to look into it, and if it's gonna be any help.
Oh, also, the order of kanji in RTK is not utility-based, but rather the one in which is is the easiest to remember them one after another. So, the payoff from it doesn't come until you've a large chunk into the book. The good things about Core is that it pays off right.
There are also some Jouyou kanji which aren't actually used anymore, but they are so rare that they don't matter and you might as well just learn everything right away.
>We try to prove her wrong daily!
But we are not alone anon
we have each other
... A fair point.
Well, you could technically interpret alone as "without a teacher"...
Also, I was learning it completely alone for about 2 years. I hardly have done anything except the kana, the very beginning of Tae Kim and the very beginning of vocabulary grinding.
It was pretty much considering the resources I had, in retrospect, but I learned about 2 times more in these 4 months alone, I think.
RTK2 teaches the readings associated to the radicals and their position. It sounds useful but it seems the method Heisig used is incredibly counterintuitive, not to mention it won't take into account the countless reading exceptions there are. Not even Koohii likes the second book.
You get a feel for those patterns naturally when you learn vocabulary, kanji similar enough in form are often read the same way.
I fucked up and didn't do reps for 2 days. I ended up with 500 review cards. After I did 250 of those 500 reps legit, I just spammed "good" to get it over with. My motivation still hasn't recovered after two weeks. I have been doing reps, but I can't find the motivation to read/otherwise expose myself to nip media. Overall, I'm feeling kind of burned out. How do I into motivation?
Also, what's the deal with this new captcha thing? It broke my 4chan extension.
It's three strokes. The loop should be one continuous motion. Something about writing with old calligraphy brushes, you'd raise it to make a thin portion through there which doesn't work with pen and pencil.
As for correctness. Neither are incorrect though sticklers will want the gap. My Japanese teacher didn't care which one we did.
So I'm a newfag who knows hiragana and katakana and but I'm stuck with where to go next. Genki doesn't seem to use any Kanji but 'Japanese the manga way' does. Whats the best way to learn grammar and Kanji at the same time?
> take N2 test
> audio part
> pretty difficult
It wasn't easy that's for sure. The last question (3-1, 3-2) was horrible for me. My neighbors all had different answers for this one, which was funny in a way.
Why does she end every sentence in なのです? Is she supposed to sound like a know-it-all?
Use tae kim if you can, its the best and quickest, if not then japanese the manga way
I tried tae kim and thought it was confusing, then read through the manga way and later went back to tae kim only to realize it was suddenly a lot easier to follow due to manga way introducing me to a bunch of shit, so i started using that instead
After you've got basic grammar down download the core 2k/6k optimized deck for anki, change the card layout to the one in the guide and start using that every day, making sure to still continue studying grammar
When you start getting good at essential grammar read yotsuba
How do you guys practice writing kanji? I've been trying practice sheets, but all the ones I've found include a bunch of kanji on one page, but not enough tracing and blank squares in the grid It's frustrating only wanting to practice a few kanji but having to print out a bunch of them that I'm not learning yet. It's such a waste of ink.
Why do you want to write kanji? I used to but then I realized it's useless other than for helping recognition, and pretty much fucktuples the amount of time you spend studying
Practice writing radicals, that way you'll know the stroke order for 90% of all the kanji you'll come across
There are many ways to do so, a lot of people say RTK but I never really liked that so whatever, just google kanji radicals and take a look at them
It's just a matter of fact that the definition of "fluency" includes "able to write".
Moot integrated it's features into the main site like a year ago, so there's no use for it now.
Palm of your hand, alternatively some regular lined paper. Usually I only write something out repetitively when it's a leech. Eventually you get a feel for stroke order and only need to remember exceptions so practicing it becomes mostly unnecessary.
I want to uncheck it so I can use the features but everytime I click save settings it goes back to being checked
How the fuck are you going to update when they haven't released an update yet?
I'd rather type out a captcha than have to reach for my house every time I want to post.
Fuck this shit.
As someone who used Nama Sensei - more important than his videos are that you start up Anki ASAP. He's not gonna teach you all of Japanese and you're gonna need a solid source of vocab.
My characters always come out looking like absolute shit when writing free hand. That's why I want to trace first so I can get a feel for the shape and the subtle flairs/curves. Maybe I'll just print out an image of the character and then place another sheet over it for tracing.
I can just use the dictionary I'm using since it shows all the radicals for any given kanji. Thank you for the tip, it's much more efficient than memorizing individual kanji stroke order.
I've seen a few apps for that but wasn't sure if they would help my characters look any less shitty. But I suppose if all I am trying to learn is stroke order than a touchscreen will do ok. I can just download it to my phone since I don't have a tablet.
Just started with the guide.
Had always postponed my learning of japanese but since I have so much time now I'll give it ago.
Kanjis are still intimidating. How many kanjis are needed to be able to read stuff properly?
You can "read" at any time. As for kanji, you only need about 2000-ish to comfortably read it *with the occasional kanji look up.* In which case, learning 5-6 a day will get you to your goal in a year.
Really though you should be learning kanji thru vocabulary which makes them not intimidating. And waiting a year to wait isn't good.
>My characters always come out looking like absolute shit when writing free hand.
That's because you're a beginner. You weren't printing perfect A's in kindergarten. Those subtle curves and flares don't really matter much as long as it's legible. Imo, I don't think you should be aiming for perfect autistic handwriting, especially when the Japanese have the shittiest handwriting I've seen to date.
>constantly hear bitching about kanji
>never hear bitching about counters
1,500 according to my anki stats.
Before anyone says, "ah but once you grow up you'll need 5,000 kanji" or some such, I want to focus on that I said "occasional kanji look up".
Well, I'm not trying to make it look like calligraphy. I just feel that tracing it a few times before writing it out free hand another few times will help speed up the process.
Ok, I understand.
Ignoring it isn't fine. They get extremely specific and yet using the more general counters when a specific one exists is incorrect.
What makes them annoying is that for just about every counter, there is pure memorization of required for any exceptions in readings from numbers 1-10.
Do you want to be like Davido-kun who is 21 numbers old?
I dunno, I'd be doing a disservice to give you a straight up time frame. I did core2k/6k for 7 months and learned 1k kanji because I was going so slow. Then I manned up and started focusing on new kanji, and learned 500-ish in a SINGLE month. It all depends on your mindset and approach.
Davido-kun had the great misfortune in that he was forced to produce. I will not have that problem.
Also, isn't the counter for age 歳? How do you mess THAT one up, of all things?
>Although rare and optional in English
A lot of them, or rather, the one I saw is just bullshit I don't even know. 20 head of cattle? Yeah, I have no fuckin' clue that "head" is a counter, I'm just gonna think of it as "20 cattle" even in English. So thanks for confirming my method as universally solid.
Well, if he was 21, he would have had to have said にいっさい instead of what would immediately come to mind, even with the counter -> にいちさい
I bet the latter would be comparable to saying something like "I'm two-one years old" in english.
Hey, stupid, I'm just letting you know that they DO exist.
Saying that there are no counters is wrong, even if they aren't used often.
By the way, shit like: pieces, years, etc can be called counters.
If someone posts something blatantly wrong, you fucking bet I'm going to correct them.
In communication, ideas are often simplified. When speaking about English, I don't have to clarify "In contemporary, used English, counters don't have a heavy presence, if they're present at all". What you did wasn't correct someone who was wrong - you were autistic about "absolute correctness" instead of having a genuine conversation. tl;dr don't be an autist, it's annoying.
I wouldn't call units of measurement counters, because they are not quantized in the same way.
However, you don't want to say "give me 3 papers" when you mean "give me 3 pieces of paper"
Language is a means by which people communicate clearly.
If a particular manner of speaking would just leave everyone confused, it's debatable that it can even be called a functional part of the language.
>muh grammar guide
Chronicles, not authority figures.
If your objective is to effectively communicate, you study grammar structure until it's intuitive, and then you throw the structure out in favor of the intuition.
>muh language "degradation"
You should hate modern day English, then, considering that it looks nothing like the English of 500 years ago.
Change is a natural part of language evolution, and there's no changing it.
You don't need motivation to do reps. Just do them. The only obstacle between you and Japanese is doing your reps; so you do them. It's not something you need to motivate yourself for- it's just something you do. It's a lifestyle.
People on lang8 I talked with used ・・・. Battler-kun uses it. Also >>118083869
Kanji makes this easier to read. I don't get why people like reading in kana and avoiding kanji. It's also hard to distinguish which is the particle and which is not. It's just stupid.
Ultimately it's the sad fact of "who cares if they know who I am"? I'm a NEET who does nothing with his live except learn Japanese. Perhaps the government will force a Rising Sun patch upon me to wear at all times, but really, there's nothing significant about me remaining anonymous.
I've got a quick question about a line in FF VII. I'm playing the game for fun and practice. It's surprisingly not too hard outside of some slurring and Kansai-ben. Anyway, if anyone here has played the game you may remember the part at the beginning of disc 2 where Cloud and Elena meet in Icicle Inn. This was right after Tseng got fucked up in the Temple of the Ancients. In the English version Elena says:
> But you really got guts doin' my boss in like that!
In the Japanese version it's
I've heard that "doing in" is a mistranslation and that the PC version changed it to something like "messing up my boss". When I looked やって up I found that やる can mean "to do someone in" so I can see how the translators translated it the way they did initially. I'm not sure how it can be seen any other way.
Then again, やってくれ can mean "to have been doing something" so can やってくれた possibly mean "to have done"? As in "How dare you have done that to my boss"?
LIVE FOR JAPANESE OR DIE FOR NOTHING
IT'S YOUR CALL
I get picture on desktop. On mobile it says:
Connection timed out. Either your internet connection is experiencing problems or you have a very large file in your media folder.
My IQ increases with every kanji I learn. I started with an IQ of 150, so I automatically knew 150 kanji before I even started. At this point my IQ is roughly 1200, and I can pick up new kanji simply by seeing them once even without context or furigana.
whats the best way to learn hiragana/katakana without actually writing them? is there any specific resources that are not extremely difficult to use and can actually help me remember what they all look like and are pronounced like without focusing on stroke order and that type of stuff?
It has some uses like pulling general meaning without knowing readings, but after doing it, I'd only recommend it alongside vocab.
I haven't been in here in a long time, just decided to come in.
I think those who know the kanji, or studied kanji individually, aren't too familiar with the benefits of doing so; because it's like, you can't appreciate happiness without having felt sadness. When I read anything in Japanese, there's always a mental block when looking at kanji, where I (as of yet) are still unfamiliar with them such that I can't instantly recognize most, there's always some struggling. Something like 残す is common, but just uncommon enough that I have to squint briefly to remember it. It's a big damper. In short, being able to recognize kanji is very helpful.
I do vocab-based kanji study, but I'm sure doing individual kanji study would help eliminate this struggle.
Thats why I recommend to learn kanji with 1 or two vocab. Even one may seem overwhelming, but giving attention to vocab and then learning a vocabulary with a reading, helps a ton later on down the line.
Individually learning just kanji or just vocab without kanji focus has its merits and its faults. Both to me are time wasters, unless you don't mind going slow.
か is basically a question mark, but even japanese us か with ？ so as long as you have one or the other or both its a question.
not him either, but
>would that be やって + くれる as in the meaning of "to do for one"
"do to one" is closer than "do for one" given that this usage is mostly negative, but くれる has no exact english parallel so fuck translations
> or is it passive くる?
passive 来る is 来られた
I don't think passive くれる exists
What are the two kanji after 電波? The closest I could find to the third one on Jisho is 陪 but it can't be right, it's missing a stroke. I couldn't find anything that resembled the last one at all.
>That feel when you like Solid Snake's Japanese VA more than any of his English VAs
>Most of the other Japanese VAs are pretty good too (not to say that the English ones are bad)
>Can't play MGS in Japanese because it seems too weird to see American agents and their bosses speaking in Japanese.
>The later games are censored
Well, it's not like I could follow MGS dialogue in Japanese at this point anyway.
1 is correct, 2 is unnatural
but the entire construction is overly rigid if all you're trying to get across is the question "got a sec?"
「今はいそがしいですか？」 sounds like like a follow up question to a person telling you how busy they've been recently
here's usually a correct particle, even if it gets omitted
does anyone else do this? i find it kinda hard to enjoy anime while trying to pay attention to two sets of subtitles at top and bottom. im trying to find a good way to have them line up without overlapping or obscuring too much of the screen.
>learning kanji by kyoiku grade order
>been on break from active studying
>look up some kanji while reading
>a good amount of them happen to be part of the grade level I'm supposed to be learning
This right here was a godsend to me.
I once did a Kanji deck and a Vocab deck side by side; I would never recognize kanji from the Kanji deck in the Vocab deck; but if I saw it in the vocab deck first, I'd recognize it in the kanji deck.
What I'm trying to say is... perhaps don't learn kanji individually?
Please look at this picture, here's the everything what you want to know that.
Not that guy, but it reminded me of a similar question.
The dude in Amaburi who says 前かがみです is saying he has an erection right? I was confused by what the subs did with that.
English -> Japanese has the best developed language learning tools on the web. You can practically hook yourself into 24/7 日本語 life support.
Being familiar with Korean might speed things along a little for you, though.
Although Korean is my first language, my English is definitely a lot better.
Ah I see, so I guess it would be better for me to learn it in English.
Middle school level. I have no problem reading/understanding Korean (except Chinese characters), but I can't convey my thoughts well in writing/speaking.
Thanks for the earnest replies guys, I was expecting /jp/ tier corean memes but glad that wasn't the case.
From Tae Kim, Casual Patterns and Slang, Essential Grammar:
>We have already seen many examples of the first method such as shortening 「かもしれない」 to 「かも」
Wait a minute TeeKimu. I'm pretty sure that is not anywhere to be found if you follow the Grammar Guide.
I guess it's something from the "Complete" one. But I've been avoiding it since it mixed more advanced things with basic ones in the examples (and DJT suggests mainly the not Complete guide).
So, please, where is that 「かもしれない」 thing?
Is your heart filled with thunder when you're learning Japanese?
>So, Yakuza 5 is coming to PSN in English. How do you feel about that,those of you learning Japanese for Yakuza?
I don't really care because 龍が如く0 is coming out in a few months. If it took them three years to translate 5 then they're probably going to skip over 龍が如く 維新 entirely and there might be an English translation for 龍が如く0 in another three years.
The translation quality is just too poor and the wait time is too enormous. Thinking that 5 was never going to be translated gave me the push that I needed back when I started about a year ago, at this point I can almost play the games comfortably. I'm glad that I didn't start learning recently though. If this news came out a year ago then it might have crippled my studies.
Quick question about something. I'm reading Dragon Ball right now and came across this sentence.
>おどろくわよ〜 ビーデルのパパはなんと あの ミスター・サタンなの！
Basically "You won't believe it but Videl's father is non-other than Mister Satan!"
So I get the intent of the sentence, but I don't really know なんと here. The definitions of なんとare "What; how; whatever" (and a couple other things that couldn't possibly be being used here). あの is probably just "that" literally. "That Mister Satan". But what about なんと? Could someone tell me its exact usage here?
There, it's a bit like "would you believe it", used for kind of a theatrical building up before the thing that's supposed to be surprising
JMdict's J->E definitions tend to be too limited for stuff like that
>Who should I meet there but Mr. Tanaka!
You got it,
So, "なんと" just works emphasize the fact of things.
Yeah, but my problem was not 「かもしれない」. It was that TK's web could get a bit of proof-reading.
Under "Dates". Move your mouse over 平成12年, the 12年 part to be exact. The pop-up window with the reading will say じゅうご instead of じゅうに.
They are little things, but I don't think you need to rebuild the whole page to fix them.
While I'm a shameless pirate overall, Tae Kim is probably one of the few people who wrote a book about Japanese who genuinely deserves his money. His guide IS that helpful.
Mind you, the Complete Guide and youtube videos aren't, but I think the mere existence of the Grammar Guide does justify that he barely did anything useful afterwards.
Kinda like with DJT Guide.
Plus, he does offer it for free. I didn't buy this book because I don't want to use Internet deliveries just to get something I already read, but as long as I'm not forced to pay, I'm actually more inclined to buy something, kinda.
Do you guys ever feel like you've conquered grammar, even though you know you're only like N3 level? Like a haughty arrogance, Dekinai whispering in your hear, "oh you've definitely mastered it now, go read Muramasa".
Not him either.
My eyes/head hurt as fuck after 2 hours of 4chan lurking or Japanese reviewing. I need papers.
When I was a kid I could spend like 6 hours in front of the crt with my Master System. I wonder what happened with my endurance. Maybe it were those sessions, that weakened me afterwards. Fucking videogames.
>pick random movie to watch
>know some of the conversation at the start
It's really working? I'm definitely gonna practice more.
How long is a piece of string? It's all up to how much you study, how long you study, and a bunch of other factors.
It shouldn't take too much longer than two years if you study consistently every day.
I do my reps. I read almost every post on DJT. I try to read anything Japanese I see, which is a lot because I surround myself in Japanese. Reps are really the most important thing, though.
If I ever get out of yuropoor status, I'll remember your advice.
If you do a lot of raw listening practice... If you could live and work in Japan for one or two years...
For sealf-teaching neets (like myself), if you work a lok everyevryeseriouslyeveryday I calculate 3 years tops. If you are lazy, 5 years. If you drop Anki and Japanese for some months, you start over even after 4 years, like what some anon suffered, who told about it like 50 threads ago.
>I read almost every post on DJT
You poor thing.
Also, while there are occasional slips of brilliant advice here that make it worth checking it out frequently, they're too rare to literally read every single post. Spending this time on something else is overall more productive... Well, if we're talking about every single post - visiting here a few times a week is probably beneficial.
I don't spend all day every day studying. I have a lot of downtime, as a neet, and during that time I have DJT on auto-refresh. It's been like that for about 8 months. It's not like I'm doing DJT as opposed to something else, DJT is just a background thing.
It's actually done wonders. Every time someone asks a question about grammar, I read it, and the answer. That adds up.
After I finished Tae Kim and Core2k. Roughly. Core2k *really* helps you distinguish words in a sentence, and Tae Kim really helps you distinguish "grammar" parts of a sentence, so to speak. An important thing though was constantly trying to read sentences, whether they be stuff posted on DJT, Tae Kim's sentences, or just stuff from the wild.
How many times did you practice from Tae Kim to keep it stuck in your head? my writing is pretty much shit, but I'm thinking I'd have to start all over again so that my handwriting is decent. I also need to understand words, phrases, etc..
I read his page on "の" about 10 times I think. Other pages, I read once and haven't gone back to. When you read something, and encounter grammar you don't know, that's when you reference back to Tae Kim and freshen up. Let's just say I got confused about の quite often...
Don't worry about your handwriting, it's fine to have ugly handwriting as long as you're recalling the character's radical composition accurately.
Learning sentences...? Getting used to sentence composition was pretty tough. It's really just a matter of sticking with it. You don't need talent to learn Japanese, you need tenacity.
Oh, yeah, I still think the chapter about の is the hardest in the guide. It's just so confusingly widely used... I think only the chapter on という can somewhat compete.
Sure, counters are hard to memorise and keigo has lots of new words which are used only for keigo, but の is the first thing that really is hard to understand on conceptual level. Pretty much the first thing in this guide that is not just a lazy stroll through the language.
Oh geez, I'm getting flashbacks to という... yeah, の was especially hard to learn, because it was referred to as the "ownership" particle everywhere.
What do you think is a good explanation? Tae Kim has held true all this time for me.
Do you have anki? If you have anki installed, it's a simple matter to create an iron rule to always study. After six months of doing anki literally every day, "quitting" doesn't even cross your mind. It's a part of you.
I don't if you will be able to answer that, but... Well...
I'm currently going through RTK on turbo pace and already past the halfway point, all without learning vocabulary. The reasons for why I do RTK and not Core are complex and I don't want to discuss them now. Anyway, even if I wanted to drop it, I think it's easier to just finish it already, which is why I'm going turbo.
So, a question, would I be able to learn vocabulary purely from reading after I finish it? Or would I need to install Core to be able to read somewhat comfortably after all? I would like to minimise my involvement with Anki as much as possible (RTK notwithstanding, 'cause I'm finishing it), but only as long as reading doesn't feel like torture.
Does anyone know if using a PAL bios with a NSTC-J game will slow the dubbings? PAL was obviously slower with snes roms, but I'm not sure with psx.
I'm testing with Boku no Natsuyasumi, I think they speak a bit slower, but maybe it's my imagination.
This will get you going. If you have any questions after setting it up, ask away.
You're gonna struggle a lot. In the easier works such as shounen manga, half the words are written in hiragana *specifically* in order to avoid kanji, so your studies won't help there. Furthermore, you won't know any of the readings- for example, you may know 飲む means drink, but you're not gonna know it's read as のむ. The same holds true for jukugo- you may recognize the kanji and have a good idea for the meaning of the word, you're gonna struggle to read it. For example, 飲水. Easy modo. Drinking water. But are you gonna know it's read as "のみみず"?
You will be able to pick up vocabulary much faster; but going straight up reading is not gonna be comfortable unless you do anki vocabulary studies, *I think*. Give it a go for yourself and see how you do before making a long-term decision. Though, IMO, anki is always the right decision, boring though it may be.
Is it bad if my study time has decreased now that I've been in intermediate for awhile?
I've been studying for a year now. I've read several VNs, a ton of manga, several RPGs, and a few light novels, but I'm getting really sick of looking up words constantly as I read. That nice feeling of being happy just to read, even with using a dictionary for everything, is long gone.
I still try to get at least four hours of reading something, and I always do my reps + 75 new words, but even though this would have been unthinkable a few months ago, I enjoy the reps more than the reading. Five hours of reading is nothing compared to the full NEET mode days that I used to do where I'd read from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to sleep though.
Is it normal to feel like you're just slogging through vocab when you get to the middle of intermediate? I feel like I just want to do my reps, my new words, the bare minimum amount of reading to keep my memory sharp, and then do something else. I know I'll be interested in reading again in few months once my grammar is several thousand words larger, but right now I hate it.
>Haven't been able to do anything all week due to lack of amphetamines
Have you tried relaxing and chillaxing? If you can guess a word from context, don't stress too much about looking it up. Natives learn vocabulary from gradually hearing it over and over, not anki.
I seem to be getting conflicting reports - a lot of NEETs say they powered through a VN or two and didn't have many problems with vocabulary after that; while other NEETs talk about having 20,000 words in anki and being unable to read anything without a dictionary. So, which is it?
Well, the true reason I'm going turbo is that I'm getting kinda sick of Anki. In retrospect, I may have been doing it too slow. I was doing it at 20 new kanji added per two days, but now two months have passed and I'm getting tired of it, not of learning kanji and thinking up stories (it's fun) but of going too slow. I just want to start reading, really. Which is why I don't want to do Core - it's gonna take yet another few months, I think. I think I can finish RTK in another month, maybe even half a month, but Core? With all its 2000/5000/10000 words? Oh, my. Also, it'll probably be a lot more boring than thinking up ridciulous stories.
Also, what if I read VNs with voices and ability to replay them, ITH and a really good digital dictionary? Plus manga with furigana or anime with Jap subs. That way I won't have to look up readings much - only jukugo, which are plenty in my dictionary.
Also, 飲み水 is hardly baffling, I figured out on the spot. Though I do know all the component words because of how ubiquitous they are, I learned them from just Tae Kim, so it could be that when I meet a decent jukugo, there will be problems..
Well, thanks for your advice.
You can start reading after doing Core2k.
>Also, 飲み水 is hardly baffling
Fine, how is 稚拙 read? Eh? Eh?
>what if I read VNs with voices and ability to replay them, ITH and a really good digital dictionary? Plus manga with furigana or anime with Jap subs
It seems like you're avoiding learning readings, which is a problem. You're not gonna have furigana on most things, and ITH can't stick with you for life. You gotta learn readings* to learn Japanese!
*how to read words
>Fine, how is 稚拙 read? Eh? Eh?
Yeah, that's more like it. It's just that the word you picked up was so easy even I knew it. This one I can't guess just from looking.
I just looked it up. It's ちせつ.
>It seems like you're avoiding learning readings, which is a problem.
What? No! I just don't want to learn them from Anki, but in process of reading.
I'm talking about the fact that if the characters talk, I won't have to look up readings, but will just listen to them and remember the readings that way. And if I don't hear something good enough, I can replay it. It will also form a link to the spoken part of Japanese.
Also, I'm talking about using ITH without the parser, just as a place from which it's easy to copy text into my dictionary. I still will look things up traditionally, I just don't want to search for radicals every time I want to look up a word.
I think that way I should be able to power through a few VNs. and then I would just slowly switch to guessing from context.
I hope it works. In the worst case, I will go through the entire Core. I just really don't want to bother.
I think it's probably both. I would have said both things at two different times.
>a lot of NEETs say they powered through a VN or two and didn't have many problems with vocabulary after that
It feels exactly like this for awhile because grammar is starting to feel easy, the language in general is starting to feel a lot more familiar, and early on when reading still feels so fresh then using the dictionary for everything doesn't feel terrible.
But then that wears off and the
>while other NEETs talk about having 20,000 words in anki and being unable to read anything without a dictionary
feeling starts to pop up. A lot of people feel perfectly happy with reading with a dictionary until they reach that uncomfortable middle point where they know enough that they can pick up something like Yotsuba and experience how smooth and comfortable it feels to read something without using a dictionary, and then all of the sudden going back and reading with a dictionary and chipping their way through every other word like a miner with a pickaxe feels like shit because they have something to compare it to.
Characters speak pretty quickly in VNs, it's pretty tough to distinguish them. The readings of words... is pretty arbitrary, which is why it's gonna be tough from just seeing them in real life, but all the power to you- it can be done.
However, the thing that will mess you up is when the only thing shown is the reading, I think. Pic related.
Those long strings of kana without any kanji. Though, in this case it's pretty simple I guess. Well, just see what works! The beginning is gonna hurt though, for sure.
Chaika: 私 記憶欠落 偽物 可能性
Chaika: トール 反応 希薄
So, Chaika's manner of speaking is based on the fact that always omit the words, Hiragana.
If I talk like chaika,
言葉 平仮名 省略 必須
Okay, I think I'm getting the hang out the core2k. have you guys studied that more than one time and then tried to physically write it later as opposed to easily typing it?
I think it makes studying more flexible.
>chipping their way through every other word like a miner with a pickaxe
See, that's what I don't understand. Are they choosing intentionally difficult material or something?
Ironic considering how many people consider guessing to victory to be the best method.
Not to mention that as your reading speed increases, so does the proportion of your reading time that a dictionary look up occupies. That is, you don't really mind too much spending 30 seconds to understand one single word when it takes you 5 minutes to read a short paragraph. But it's pretty bothersome to lose 30 seconds when you could have read a whole paragraph in that time. I
>Characters speak pretty quickly in VNs
Which is why I will try to seek ones where you can replay all the phrases. If I still can't understand the readings after I've listened to it 5 times in the row, then it's probably something worth using dictionary for.
>strings of kana
'Tis true. My dictionary can look up words based on readings and even knows some words used only in kana, but I think the database is not as big as the kanji one, and I need to use kana in the right form for it to count (i.e., ある instead of あって).
Well, thanks for your advice! I will manage somehow.
I won't let her win.
I just love this phrase. It's probably because...
I'm not a native Englsih speaker, and neither does my dictionary have English.
I could probably use JISHO pretty reliably, but I like this one so much, I never bothered to even seek other dictionaries. One of the best things I've found, pretty much. Tons of kanji, even more jukugo, all the readings for kanji on its entry page, and a ton of other cool features. There are just too much to explain them all.
It even has some kind of proto-Anki which I used until I found DJT. In retropspect, it's awful, but it was really kinda unexpected when I found it and it helped me a lot when I first began...
The dictionary has actually been translated in English, but it's not free there (it is in Russian) and there is no crack for it, because nobody cares about it when there are so many other dictionaries. As such, it sucks in English: it's cool for a free dictionary in Russian where there are few other dictionaries and it only helps that it has lots of cool options, but it's just not worth the money in English, even with all its cool options.