>>117995561 secondary you don't even realize that over 80 of fate zero was written by Nasu and is in the original VN. All urobuchi did was tie the pieces together, added a few characters and put it into book form. Nasu came up with the plot, most of the characters and the entire story.
UBW just feels strange, I guess because the majority of Blade Works is a questioning of Shirou's ideals and so far we havent even gotten to see inside his mind.
A lot of the screenplay feels dull as well. So far every episode has failed to grab me at the intro and failed to keep me in suspense by the ED. They all just hang there, it feels awkward to watch, like the show just missed a beat.
>>117995331 It's simple, the FZ anime > UBW anime. A large part of the suspense from the VN is you seeing changes from events in the previous route and you trying to guess what made those happen, That simply isn't here.
Zero had the urobutcher fucker writing it. It's way different then the other fate works. There was more on the line with the fate zero plus the Kiritsugu was a boss protagonist who had his ideal contrasted with Sabers. Just overall way fucking better.
>>117996412 >Magic circuits are a psuedo-nervous system. >You pump magic through these circuits to perform magic. >Turns out sperm has magic in it too because how else do babies develop magic circuits? >Some anon can't pay attention to details clearly presented in a neat manner for him. >In UBW Rin explains how a sex ritual can create a bond allowing Shirou to use Rin's mana. >Some faggot anonymous can't wrap his head around the explanation. >Calls it an asspull so he looks intelligent. Ok.
>>117995744 You obviously haven't done your research. Butcher came up with 90% of the scenario. Sure, it was based upon Fate/Stay Night which is all Nasu so you can say in a way Nasu made Zero because a lot of it is derived from F/SN. However, in many interviews Nasu even stated that the ideas he had for a prequel were essentially the same as Urobutcher's. Thus Urobutcher gets all the credit for making the story.
>>117996384 Not really. You're saying character characteristics inherently lower the value of a work/author, when part of the job of an author is to get you inside a character's mind. them doing that successfully is what should be measured. An immature, dumb character can be interesting, especially if you can be made to understand their thoughts.
>>117996515 >>117996518 I've enjoyed most of the work he did and think he is a better writer than most of the other shit I watched. I don't think Kiritsugu is a manchild. Children are selfish and Kiritsugu performed many selfless acts.
>>117995744 er, no. the best parts of zero are all urobuchi, like kiritsugu's character, motivations, and origin story. he basically gets one throwaway line in fate route about using a gun, and the rest of it is heard secondhand (unreliably) from kirei in HF.
>>117996997 I watched the UBW movie and thought it was pretty good. I definitely like Gilgamesh as an antagonist. I guess what I don't like is the naive teenager and highschool shit. It is done to death and I feel if characters are actually adults and have that maturity shit would be more interesting.
In Zero everything was well thought out and planned where as in UBW they are just running around coming up with shit last minute. Kiritsugu was a capable person on his own where as Shirou and Rin are shit in the beginning. Shirou doesn't become boss until the end and by that point he is just overpowering Gilgamesh versus some like Kiritsugu would have had a strategy of some sort.
>>117996531 >>Turns out sperm has magic in it too because how else do babies develop magic circuits? Not just sperm, any bodily fluid. It's just that drinking blood is a Very Bad Thing in the Nasuverse and saliva has fuckall magic in it. That's why Kuro has to french a dozen girls in Kaleid Liner if it isn't Ilya or Miyu, both of them being Grails hooked up to Kaleidosticks.
>>117996997 People always blame the translation for everything that's wrong with Nasu's writing, but can anyone actually verify that it's really that great in the original language? Most faggots here, you included, are EOP. I have only seen snippets of actual translations and those alone don't convince me of the overall quality of the work at all.
>>117995331 Because most of what has happened until now feels shallow. There is a big contrast between the maturity the show aspires to and the maturity it shows in itself. The dialogue is really bad, the characters are fucking anime teenagers doing anime teenager shit and the fight scenes feel like nothing. Leaving aside a few scenes(mainly the small bits where Gil appears in the background) that establish an atmosphere of danger, UBW is very safe and too self important for what it can achieve. The nasuverse infodump is fucking annoying not only due to the amount of stuff they have explain, but also because it feels like a fucking video game fantasy world created by a dumb fuck. Most characters are not only unrealistic, but also very boring ones at that(monogatari and baccano have unreal characters, but they happen to be interesting and fun to watch). And also you have a godawful character like Shinji(like, holy shit, how does he even have friends). Most of plot developments until now have been all establishing the scenario and it feels like the write can pull anything out of his ass to make stuff happen(because MAGIC).
F/Z had better characters, the arcs were better defined and it followed a shitload of people. That made it a more engaging show even when nothing was happening because you had small developments on every front. It also meant that the big events had more impact, because you were following how it would hit the lives and plans of a lot of people. It also made it more serious in a good way, because you saw how complex the war was. Here, not only it is simplified(because teenagers), but it also tends to TELL YOU how complex it is, instead of showing it.
So yeah, basically it is because of Nasu's usual writing problems.
>>117995331 T-M was more fresh and fun to get into few years ago, all thanks to FZ & KnK. Now it is simply overexposed, UBW is okay as fanservice for ppl who are already farmiliar to the source material, but it just doesn't bring it like FZ & KnK.
It doesn't help that the fanbase somehow managed to be even more austistic nowadays, always argue over the least trivia uninteresting things and this makes the threads on /a/ bad too.
>>117997256 The translation for FSN will always be bad because it was done by someone who had English as their second language, hence it being filled with loads of grammatical errors and awkward phrasing you would never see in properly translated English, original writing aside.
And if you aren't EOP why don't you just read the VN in Japanese or look up reviews for the VN and thoughts on the writing yourself if it bothers you so much?
>>117995331 Honestly so far UBW lacks drama and conflicts between characters, this causes no tension whatsover in what's happening. In FZ everyone has a agenda and the masters all have some sort of stragedies, it just feel like they took this supposed "war" more serious.
>>117997688 >Why doesnt UBW feel as thrilling to watch as Zero? Present. Ergo ep.00 to ep.09 >You want consequence? By the end of the cour Shirou's contract with Saber will be broken. >By the end of the cour
>>117997699 >better writing Opinion >better focus You yourself said it followed far more characters than UBW did. Sure that might work to its benefit, but you can't call it quite as focused when it's switching perspectives every two minutes.
>>117995331 Because the focus is on the only characters in this war who aren't really trying to win the grail. Why should we cheer for them ? Also the level of this war. Sure enemies don't have to be overpowered to be threatening (it's all relative to the strength of the MC) but by comparison they feel like a joke.
>>117997753 >it followed a shitload of people. That made it a more engaging show even when nothing was happening because you had small developments on every front. It also meant that the big events had more impact, because you were following how it would hit the lives and plans of a lot of people. It also made it more serious in a good way, because you saw how complex the war was. Here, not only it is simplified(because teenagers), but it also tends to TELL YOU how complex it is, instead of showing it That is why I think FZ's approached the story better. And yes, of course it is based on opinion, but some of the lines in UBW feel like a fucking parody.
>>117997699 That's what you're trying to say, but you provide no reason/context as to why that is the case. However, assuming you're also >>117997584 , that's understandable why given your situation. For someone like me, things like >>117997591 are poor examples in regards to being tense scenes, because F/Z is a prequel and I know that Kiritsugu will survive to the end.
>>117997845 It's not about brute strength, it's about the master/servant chemistry, how they work together, what strategy is the master using and how does it tie in with the servant powers. Try comparing Kiritsugu, Tokiomi, Archibald, hell even Waver to the masters of FSN. They did things. They didn't just run around waiting to be attacked. They schemed, they planned, they ambushed. Most of FSN's masters can't do anything by themselves and rely entirely on their servant's brute strength.
>>117997845 >Every servant in the 5th war is a beast compared to the ones in the 4th. I AM TIRED OF THIS SHIT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PERCEiVED THREAT. THIS IS A MAGIC WORLD FULL OF BULLSHIT. ERGO, I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE STATS OF EVERY GUY. I CARE ABOUT HOW WELL THOSE CHARACTERS ADD TENSION AND CREDIBLE THREAT TO THE STORY FZ SERVANTS ACHIEVE THAT 10x TIMES BETTER THAN FSN SERVANTS DUE TO SMARTER WRITING(THIS WE CAN DEBATE).
>>117997805 And according to my friend who is actually Japanese, and from what I've asked him about the subject and from what other people I've seen on /a/ say, the stigma about the writing in FSN doesn't exist in Japan since most people there are smart enough to realize they are reading an eroge, and consider Nasu to be 5/5 stars at conceptualizing things and only average as a writer at the time of FSN. And I really wouldn't take Moogy's word for anything ever.
>>117995744 There's a very big difference between laying out of groundwork for a story like "yeah Kotomine betrays Tokiomi, and then he fights Kiritsugu but the grail interrupts them..." than writing an actual novel (or a television script for that matter). If you only want to know what happens in a novel you can just read the spark notes, but to appreciate the prose, the atmosphere, the dialogue, etc etc you have to read the whole work. And Urobuchi does deserve the credit for that in Fate/Zero.
-Iskandar chose to interrupt the fight between Saber and Lancer and asked them to ally with him while revealing his identity. As per the reaction of some of the other characters, who the fuck would do that? Honestly if he had wanted to, he could have launched a surprise attack on one of them and kill them without revealing that he was Iskandar the Great, but he didn't because that was his personality.
-After Iskandar interrupts Saber/Lancer/Berserker, Gilgamesh could have killed at least one of them with all of those Noble Phantasms he had ready (he could have even kept at a distance as well), but that was against Tokiomi's strategy.
-Also during that time, Kiritsugu could have sniped Waver but didn't. Assassin could have attempted to quickly killed Irisviel from the shadows while all the servants were busy. This is similar to how F/SN's Archer decided to target the servants when he could have possibly went after the master.
>>117998034 >Caster draining the town for strength >Shinji/Rider sucking the school dry for strength >Shirou learning what the fuck is going on. Saber recuperating between stuff because she can't regenerate quickly. >Rin doing shit, not paying attention to the harmless guy, yet. >Ilya wrecking shit behind the scenes. >Kerei letting the others kill each other with his OP servant as backup.
>>117998235 Personally, I don't find any of that shit as compelling as the stuff in Zero because Zero seemed like it had a much larger scale to what happened. You don't see anyone using tactics or siege or anything like that in F/SN, whereas in Zero, everyone has a plan and the tension comes from finding out who has the best plan. F/SN is less of an action/drama like that and more of a mystery story. Most of it is just about people trying to figure out what's going on.
>>117998034 Tokiomi and Kiritsugu are the only masters in F/Z that ever really do anything competent in regards to strategy and trying to win the war. Kirei doesn't care and is just Tokiomi's pawn, Kariya is too busy wanting to get revenge on Tokiomi to think, Kayneth spends all his time trying to fight honorable magic battles that all go wrong, and Waver only ever does one competent thing in finding Caster's hideout, relying on Rider for the rest of things like you're criticizing the masters of FSN for.
Mean while, FSN Caster is by far the most competent master in the whole series who actually has an entire strategy to win the whole entire war, FSN Kirei is sending out Lancer to scout out the competition, Shinji is powering up Rider while following the strategy laid out by Zouken, and Rin/Shirou are working together to stop Caster/Shinji. Ilya is really the only person doing what you're describing, but even she's effectively trying to do what Tokiomi and Gilgamesh should have done all along since Hercules is OP as fuck.
>>117998408 And how is that different from Iskandar dicking around and being silly, or Gil/Tokiomi deciding "well this isn't the time to actually get anything done despite the fact that we've revealed our NP and not accomplished anything"?
The first fight scene in F/Z is a fake. They fake killing Assassin to trick the other masters. Point 1. There is already an alliance at play. Point 2. It happens at an isolated place, but Kirei and beard guy know everyone is watching, because they are all competent. Point 3. That's a smart fucking plan, it almost feels like a chess play done by a person with a brain. Point 4. We know ALL OF THIS AT THE SAME TIME IT HAPPENS. Point 5. It is short, it feels very real. assassin makes a mistake and BAM fight over
The first fight in UBW is Archer vs Lancer. Point 1. We have almost no context, it is used to show us that Archer is so cool you guys. Point 2. Like in FZ, it is and isolated fight, but it also is isolated from the rest of the masters. We don't know them, it feels like no one is watching. Point 3. Anime choreography. Looks impressive, but removes seriousness. It is really long and full of battleshonen moments. Point 4. Feels almost like a random pokemon just appeared. In FZ it was a calculated move of people with a big strategy, here it surely has something of that, but it is presented as HELLO, I AM ENEMY N°1.
ITT: fags who've never read the VN saying that UBW was a weak route. Better than fucking Fate, god damn. Heaven's Feel wasn't that much better.
Also Fate/zero is easily weaker than any of the three routes of the VN...
>>117998381 >You don't see anyone using tactics or siege or anything like that in F/SN Holy shit...you can't be serious. There's more depth than F/Z for fucks sake, there was inner monologue (although god that began to grate sometimes), and you didn't get any asspull building explosions to suddenly end an arc for example.
>>117998670 Its not as bad as the failures who don't even have the attention span or the intelligence to read the visual novel, which has even been translated and which far surpasses any anime adaptation in terms of quality.
>>117998570 Your English probably isn't as bad as you might think it is so you should be a bit more confident in yourself. Your first points on F/Z are very good and I agree with it as to how it sets up tension. Your second point I agree doesn't set up tension in the same manner, but that also wasn't the point of that scene. The Lancer/Archer fight was designed to show you how strong and amazing servants are. It serves the same role as the Lancer/Saber fight in Zero. Regardless, you did bring up a good point so I have a better idea of what you're thinking of. In such a context, Zero did do a better job of setting up an overall tension for the rest of the story to follow.
>>11799871 >Its not as bad as the failures who don't even have the attention span or the intelligence to read the visual novel, which has even been translated and which far surpasses any anime adaptation in terms of quality. >the intelligence to read the visual novel >intelligence >to read an eroge
>>117998621 Of course there's more depth to F/SN, it's three stories while F/Z is one. I was never arguing that. I was arguing F/Z did action and tension better because of its scale.
>you didn't get any asspull building explosions to suddenly end an arc Yeah, instead you got asspull healing sword sheaths. Your point? Also Kiritsugu blowing up Kayneth's building was more the beginning of an arc than the end of one. Did you even watch the show? The explosion resolved literally nothing and its main point was to reinforce what kind of methods Kiritsugu uses. Honestly, it was refreshing seeing someone actually use conventional weaponry in an anime about magic. I found myself questioning why Shirou and Rin weren't packing heat.
>>117998877 >Q: During the last part of Sakura’s route, Shirou was saved by the tiny bit of residual mana in Rin Tohsaka’s pendant. Also, it seems like Rin knew about the difference in residual mana between the thing he got back from Archer and the thing he was holding, so could Sakura’s route be the one in which Shirou becomes a Heroic Spirit after all? Or could you tell us the route(s) in which Shirou doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit?
>A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero.
>>117998887 Once they're in, there's nothing stopping them from taking the train to the local armory and picking up some weaponry for when their servants aren't around. Has to be cheaper than all the jewels Rin uses.
>>117998877 No, the only thing that has been said about Fate, is that it is the one of the three most likely to led to EMIYA. There's a whole multiverse of possibilities that are more likely than all three.
>>117998945 What exactly defines artificial writing? Artificial fun is the act of doing and enjoying something more so because of the concept than the actual thing you are currently experiencing, such as watching an ufotable adaptation of FSN while not being a secondary. Can we port over the same kind of logic to artificial writing?
>>117999078 He sacrifices his ideal even harder in MoS than he does in True end and the normal ends. EMIYA's ideal is still the same, he's just become jaded. That Shirou is a completely different character.
>>117998844 >I found myself questioning why Shirou and Rin weren't packing heat.
Because it's fucking Japan, where there are EXTREMELY STRICT anti-gun laws, and because they're both fucking teenagers. And Rin's a magus, and magi don't use guns. Why would they need to? They have magic.
>>117995331 Because FSN isn't a "thriller". Fate/Zero was adapted to television with it being a thriller in mind.
You have to think of FSN:UBW adaptation like it's a character study of a bunch of lost kids.
Shirou was adopted by Kiritsugu after his whole family was killed in the aftermath of the grail. Rin's Dad was murdered/betrayed by Kirei (a complete sociopath) and her Mom died shortly after because of the brain damage Kariya inflicted on her. Sakura is sent to live with Zouken and Shinji, and they're monsters who send worms on her.
What the UBW (although the story works best when it's a Heaven's Feel/UBW best of both) adaptation is doing well is exploring these kids feelings towards their absent or abusive parents.
The can talk magic, fighting, killing other servants like it's nothing. What gets them hung up is their emotional baggage from their upbringing, and every character deals with it differently. It's actually the best part of the anime, which given the budget is saying something.
>>117995331 >>117999302 The most resonant parts of the series so far have come in scenes where Rin and Shirou talk about their mage parents.
Rin is pissed at Shirou that his Dad was around, but didn't teach him much magic because if she admits magic isn't the most important thing to herself, it's like she makes her Dad's death meaningless. Shirou realizes in that scene he's stepped on a raw wire and doesn't push it.
Rin realizes she stepped on one of Shirou's live wires when he reveals to her he's seen plenty of death. It's not revisited in the following (this week's) episode but it hangs over their interactions. Rin tries to be closer to Shirou this week, she's more protective of him. She tries to trust him more because she wants to know what "I have seen death" means.
In addition, it opens her up a bit. She tries to get the perspective of what adoption is like from Shirou, not realizing he was adopted without a lot of say in the process. Shirou has to give an answer that justifies his past instead of one that is right/what he really feels.
If the scene where Rin calls Kiritsugu not a mage is the first instance of this sort of scene, Shirou talking adoption at the end of this episode is the counter-weight.
I get that the fights and overall plotting/pacing in Fate/Zero were better, but the characterization in this UBW adaptation is just as interesting, it is just unfolding slower.
>>117998455 I think the difference here is that we aren't seeing the war from everyone's perspective at once. Instead we are only seeing the story from shirou's point of view, and shirou is fucking clueless. Its not that the other masters aren't making strategies and plans, its that we aren't seeing the story from their point of view this time.
The anon you replied to cant even comprehend this, and he's not really worth responding to. Its not an inherently worse method of story telling, its just different from the methods fate zero employed. Some people may prefer one over the other. Fate zero showed us the war from a third party perspective, letting is see everything from everyone's perspective and with little bias towards any particular character. UBW on the other hand is throwing us into the middle of the story with shirou, and we are supposed to learn about things as we go along with shirou. Fate zero ruined this aspect of the story for secondaries because they're no longer learning about what's going on with shirou, they already know all the secrets.
>>117999586 Except in F/Z, it wasn't an asspull because we knew Kiritsugu had it from the beginning. It was the catalyst he summoned Saber with, for christ's sake. In F/SN, we have no idea what's keeping Shirou alive and there's no way to even make a reasonable guess about what it is until you actually see it.
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