Did the Knights Templar actually worship Baphomet or was that

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>>19490243
Yes and no.

They didn't worship Baphomet, Baphomet is just symbolic iconography they employed in their worship of God.

Basically they were hipsters and wanted to worship God esoterically with spooky symbolism unlike the current priesthood.

>>19490243
They didn't worship Baphomet. The charges were false, and the goat symbol was created by Eliphas Levi in 1856, long after the Templars were officially disbanded in 1312.

Baphomet, was a bastardization (mispronunciation) of the word Mohammed, so the accusations of this were essentially accusations that the Templars worshipped the Islamic prophet Mohammed as well as Jesus, because one or two families used some Islamic imagery in places on their coins and sigils.

The "head" that was venerated was actually the Shroud of Turin, which was hidden from King Philippe's treachery and later surfaced in France after Philippe's death.

https://youtu.be/VsQ1m_sGFt4

The Chinon Parchment exhonerated the Templars of all charges, after a non-corrupt pope found evidence that the charges against the Templars were falsified so Philippe could steal their gold and eliminate their threat to French monarchy and Catholic faith, and all their confessions were tortured out of them. Tortured men say anything to stop the pain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinon_Parchment

Templars were often trained to resist Islamic torture under captivity, and that training sometimes seemed heretical to an uniformed viewer. Also, initiates were often tested by being asked to do unchristian things, and if they submitted, they were denied promotion into the higher ranks.

>>19490337
>The Chinon Parchment
The Chinon Parchment details a failed attempt by the Pope to preserve the Templars from the machinations of King Philip IV of France, through establishing that the Order was not heretical and was capable of reform under the aegis of the Church. However, as it became apparent that Philip had determined upon the extermination of the Order (and the confiscation of its considerable wealth and property within his kingdom), the Pope was forced to abandon the Templars to their fates by the threat of military force from King Philip IV.. Outside France, the dissolution of the Order was achieved with far less bloodshed, and surviving members of the Order were absorbed into other religious institutions.

baphomet = mohammed
>ba fa met
>ma ham ed

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Isn't it funny? I mean the Catholic warriors literally worshiping satan.
wew good job templars

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>>19490243

They were into sodomy, like all occultists.

>>19490803
>They were into sodomy, like all occultists.
proofs?

the image of two men on one horse is a sign of their poverty, because they weren't rich enough for each man to have a horse.

as the order grew in wealth, that imagery was replaced by newer, more accurate sigils.

>>19490243
Oddly they worshipped your mom...

>>19491104
>more accurate sigils.
>like all occultists

>>19491148
Proofs nigga proofs. Can you make your pathetic life worth while and give me some reliable sources? Don't give me some bullshit YouTube or Wikipedia. Give me an actual reliable fucking source.

>>19491148
>>more accurate sigils.
>>like all occultists
a sigil isn't necessarily an occult sigil.

i'm talking about family sigils. each templar family had its own family sigil, like a coat of arms. would you rather me use that term?

i'm not talking about magic, i'm talking about heraldry. a few of the Templar surnames chose islamic symbols in their family sigils, like the Dome on the Rock, or a crescent moon and star. Even though firmly Christian, the Catholic church pounced on this as an excuse to falsely accuse them of worshipping "baphomet", or mohammed.

Eliphas Levi's "goat of mendes" satanic symbol for the word baphomet wasn't even created until five hundred years after the templars disbanded.

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Were they really the bad guys that those assassin games want to teach us?
I think the assassins are full of shit.

>>19490285
What does Baphomet represent symbolically?

>>19493433
Hmm maybe,
is pic related?

>>19490285
Kinda like the Klan? (Spooky cross burnings and creepy robes?)

>>19490243
Rumor spread by their enemies.

>>19490285
Baphomet didn't come about until a long, long time after the Templars.

>>19493885
Balance between opposing forces.

>>19490337
Thank you smart anon

>>19493433
>Were they really the bad guys that those assassin games want to teach us?
>I think the assassins are full of shit.
games are always full of shit.

valid history books much less so.

>>19494445
>Thank you smart anon
welcome. i have to know my family history.

t.True Templar

Isn't the legend tell, that Freemasons do also worship / use this guy at their rituals? Any freemasons here?

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Has anyone ever made a 'wojak baphomet' yet?

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>>19493885
The torch on the head of the goat represents the Kether, (crown of god, knowledge beyond comprehension of man) corresponding to the quintessence element of the spirit, the black moon and the white moon represent the Geburah And the Chesed emanations of the Qabbalah, Chesed being the feminine emanation of mercy and love corresponding to the element of water and Geburah being the masculine emanation of severity and judgement corresponding to the element of fire. The direction of the hands symbolizes how these two are in harmony. The grotesque head of the beast represents the sinful nature of us, but the pentagram on its head is representative of our intelligence or some shit. The snake dick is the Rod of Asclepius and represents eternal life and the Phallus (swelling) which is not a gender thing but a spiritual thing, I don't fucking know, read a book or something.

>>19495553
Freemason here. No, we don't worship Baphomet. Most of us would find the idea pretty detestable. Baphomet is more of an occultist / edgy Satanic thing.

>>19496196
I don't get it. You idiots are always going on about Jews ruling the world yet you pull out "esoteric" information that's essentially Jewish crap repackaged. You are literally Jewing yourself, whether you know it or not.

>>19490586
No, it's Abu Fiamat

>>19491104
>two men on one horse
Ah, but is it two men?

>>19495553
Naw, that was fabricated by Leo Taxil. A professional (literally) troll.

>>19496733
>that's essentially Jewish crap repackaged.
Cart before the horse.

>>19495553
Freemasonry is all about deism and architect/clockmaker metaphors.

>>19496769
The fact that Abrahamic religions took from older myths is obvious. What I'm saying is symbols like the "Solomon's Seal" is still the "Star of David", which are both Jew things. Even if you did see that in Egypt, the hell aren't you guys calling it the "Star of Amun" or something? Why not find the Akkadian equivalent, or Babylonian? Why go for the Jewish terms?

Oh yeah, because it was made up and is perpetuated BY JEWISH ICONOGRAPHY.

>>19496796
I'm all for a clockgod

>>19494035
Levi's depiction, as in OP image, did not, for sure.

>>19496803
Where are you getting the idea that Masons refer to the Hexagram as the Star of David? You do know geometry predates Judaism, no?

>>19496803
>the hell aren't you guys calling it the "Star of Amun" or something?
In most cases we just call it the double triangle. In some specific circumstances it's called the Magen David, but that's in context.
>Why go for the Jewish terms?
Because familiarity wins out over your autism.

>>19496945
See the forest for the trees, Mason. Don't just pick the set of words that's easiest to dismantle. This ain't about Geometry, this is about using words that revolve around Jewish concepts rather that the original name for the same Hexagram you're defending.

>>19496956
Given that the ceremonies involve the Temple of Solomon, i think that those (later) terms are somewhat understandable.
And you know the Jews only recently stole the double triangle, right?

>>19496954
Ad hominem.

You might as well say we call it "color" instead of "colour" because that's more popular. Although that's a valid answer, it still doesn't explain why people use damn Jewish terms for enlightenment while blaming the Jews. (My point.)

>>19496977
>You might as well say we call it "color" instead of "colour" because that's more popular.
Lingua Franca, dude.
> it still doesn't explain why people use damn Jewish terms for enlightenment while blaming the Jews.
Same way people can dislike Arabs and Indians whilst using their numbering system. Ease of use, and it does no harm when you want to be understood.

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>>19496733
YES IT'S SECRET and powerful Jewmagick. Are you this dumb? The Jews were right, that's why they're in power. Don't you want power? What's wrong with POWER?

>>19496974
Yeah but as I said in the second half of
>>19496977
Why use "Temple of Solomon" for ceremonies especially after knowing the Jews only recently stole the double triangle, as you said.

It's like saying "Fuck the news, it's all lies" and then spending an hour on Facebook.

>>19496986
See, now this makes sense. Even so, it makes people look like hypocrites that they point towards Moses whilst spouting Architect.

>>19490611
Do not speak so loud, they may hear you... they may be closer than you think they are.. eli erittäin lähellä..

>>19496997
>Why use "Temple of Solomon" for ceremonies especially after knowing the Jews only recently stole the double triangle
Because the Jews have very little to do with it (they weren't even Jews in that era). There are other messages to be derived from that setting which are especially Christian.
Though fun fact: In late 19th/early 20th century Germany, they swapped out the Solomonic setting for Cologne and Munich cathedrals.

>>19497006
How so?

>>19497028
Maybe they should've stuck with Munich. Christians built their Faith upon Judaism after all. Christ was even called King of the Jews. Also, from what I recall Masons veered towards Christianity as a cover for being called subversive to the Catholic church before they were eventually found to be innocent in the Shroud of Turin thing anon posted earlier in the thread.

What I'm saying with >>19496997
Is that you spend time dismantling Religion to find Truths, (Like the double triangle), and then turn around and call it the Solomon Seal because it's easier to grasp.

As I said, maybe they should've stuck with Munich and the Double Triangle as opposed to willingly associating themselves with Solomon and the Star of David. Same difference, except one is euhemerized while the other is stigmatized.

>>19496803
It wasn't a jewish thing until the 16th century.

We call it the hexagram, because that's what it is.

>>19497061
>Christ was even called King of the Jews.
Nope. Or at least, not in the Bible. That's a recent addition too. Rex Judaorum means King of Judea.
>Also, from what I recall Masons veered towards Christianity as a cover for being called subversive to the Catholic church before they were eventually found to be innocent in the Shroud of Turin thing anon posted earlier in the thread.
No, that makes no sense timeline wise, and traditionally Masonry only accepted Christians and was overtly Christian. Now it's just covertly Christian.
> and then turn around and call it the Solomon Seal
We don't, actually.
>they should've stuck with Munich
It was a later innovation which whilst cool, missed out on a lot of stuff. Not just the appendant degrees.

>>19496997
King Solomon used the hexagram because he was an occultist.

It's an occult symbol, before and after him. The jews only adopted it because it so happened that the jews are schemey fucks and were really into the occult, thus kabbalah.

>>19497069
>>19497080
Already addressed.

>>19497074
Good to know y'all are history buffs. When I said "You" I was referring to Occultists in general using kabbalah and shit with Jewish etymology. Not specifically directed at Masons til you mentioned the Solomon ceremony. Anyways I'm out, but thanks for the discussion.

>>19497096
Yes we know that you think all of occultism, with the exception of whatever pseudo-Nordic shit Varg says, is Jewish.

>>19497096
Qabbalah and the like are just tools. It matters not where they come from, but how they are used.
Much like how no one cares that tarot came from bored Florentine aristocrats, but now apply it to psychology.

>>19497101
No you fucking idiot, you don't know me. Wicca, Gnosticism, Numerology, Synchronicity, Gematria, Sigils, etc. I was specifically speaking about those who spam Jewish esoterica in PARTICULAR while they blame Jews for everything. Fuck man, it's difficult to have a conversation with people who cant comprehend CONTEXT and LINEAR COMPREHENSION.

I. Am. Out.

>>19497103
"It doesn't matter where this bloodied and smoking handgun came from, just what you do with it now." is what you're saying btw

>>19497114
This is the second time you have said you were leaving. I'm beginning to seriously doubt your trustworthiness.

>>19490337
>Templars were often trained to resist Islamic torture under captivity, and that training sometimes seemed heretical to an uniformed viewer.
Ah, so that's why they take it up the ass in their rites

>>19497123
Except Qabalah can't really be used like that. But maintain your preconceived notions if you will, just don't make things difficult for everyone else because of it.

>>19497114
They have a jewish hate boner, perfectly understandable, given that they worship power.

>>19497160
I think the anon you are responding to has some kinda weird Jew-fetish, too. Nobody in their right mind is fixated on what tools you can't use due to what group invented them.

>>19490337
>Templars were often trained to resist Islamic torture under captivity,

how the fuck is one trained to ''resist torture''?
How the fuck are you trained to resist someone dropping boiling water in your insides?

Never understood this meme.

>>19497179
They do it in special ops too. They fucking "simulate" (see "torture without actually killing you") torture scenarios.

>>19490337
>The "head" that was venerated was actually the Shroud of Turin

Shroud of Turin didn't even exist yet.

>>19490611
>literally worshiping satan.

You know how I can tell that you're a trigglypuff?

Aside from having your facts wrong, I mean.

>>19496796
Incorrect. Careful examination of ritual reveals glaringly obvious and repeated reference to the Christian faith.

t. a Mason

>>19497123
Quite a false dichotomy, but sure. The same rope which could hang a man could be used to tie down rigging. Don't blame tools for the way people use them.

>>19498695
The best thing i've seen was a Mark Master degree in the USA, where a Jew was the candidate. By the end of the ceremony, after the punishment of the "overseer" and the "Stone which the builders rejected" bit, he had a look on his head like a negro who walked into a Klan meeting.

>>19493433
>Assassin's Creed
>Teaching
What in the literal fuck. This best be bait.

>Captcha: Bloom Groome

>>19490243
Felt like I should save this for reference

>>19498695
> glaringly obvious and repeated reference to the Christian faith
I feel suddenly less interested in masons now

Esoteric Christianity is a thing, you know?

>>19497179
It's learning to keep your head enough to lie or whatever. Of course you can't resist pain, but pain management is somewhat possible in lower doses

>>19501741
"Shh.. Nobody knows super secret rituals we are about to show you.. Plenty secrets, very hidden for centuries. Come inside...

Surprise! We made you go to Church!"

That's now my idea of Masonry. Way to suck the magic out of it.

>>19501532
>>19501943

> missingthepoint.jpg

FWIW, we aren't a Christian fraternity, there's just a lot of underlying ideas that happen to be there. There's also a shitload of Qabbalistic, alchemical, hermitic, etc., ideas there, too. If the idea of Masonry playing well with religion is unappealing to you, maybe you should look for something more accessible and suitable to your tastes.

>>19497074
>traditionally Masonry only accepted Christians and was overtly Christian.
>Now it's just covertly Christian.
>>19502074
>we aren't a Christian fraternity

So which is it?

>>19502111
Implying that's the same person.

Also, no, again, we're not a Christian fraternity. We've got Jewish/Muslim/Deist/Buddhist/Hindu/etc dudes, and we don't teach Christianity (as we aren't Christian, nor a religion). Like I said earlier, there are Christian elements to Masonry. There are also Qabbalistic elements, hermetic elements, alchemical elements, etc.

>>19502663
You don't need to pander to the naysayers, hombre. That's what caused the shit with SGRACE.
>Also, no, again, we're not a Christian fraternity.
Kind of are. We just let others in.
>and we don't teach Christianity
Hard disagree.

>>19501943
Great. Sounds like you wouldn't get anything out of any initiatic system. Sorry that everyone doesn't cater to you.

>>19490243
My dad has a tattoo of this guy.

>>19503467
With all due respect, brother, you're being kind of a pain in the ass. I'm not pandering, and we're not a Christian fraternity. Perhaps I misspoke when I said we don't teach Christianity. We do teach Christianity, but we also teach a lot of other things, some of which are absolutely & obviously not Christian.

>>19503641
>With all due respect, brother, you're being kind of a pain in the ass
All good. I'd hate to think my brethren couldn't tell me when i am. Doesn't mean i'll stop, mind.
> I'm not pandering
You are a bit, though. We don't need to appeal to everyone. Most especially the above troll. Like i said, that's the problem which occurred in England a few decades ago with the Holy Royal Arch gutting the ceremonies because the detractors were being mean. But now they're still meany pants, and English and Welsh Comps. have a hollow skeleton of a degree.
Always best to stay true and rise above it, with no concern given to the unworthy.

>>19503665
Oh, on that I have no disagreement! I did tell him that he should look for something more "accessible" (read: normie-friendly), after all.

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I really wish Baphomet was considered an actual entity that was this high ranking demon lord up there with Satan and Lucifer who could use magic spells and summon up lesser demons that people sacrificed virgins to like Doom II and Venom's Black Metal album led me to believe instead of a generic "Yin Yang" type symbol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkF1hnGsnGM

>>19503779
>actual entity
>Satan and Lucifer
Anon...

>>19503787
Yeah yeah I realized that after I posted it, but the point still stands

>>19503765
You know, the flaw in your reasoning there seems to apply to your whole organization.
>>19503665
I'll rope you into this because you seem to be under the illusion that the other anon you're talking to is somehow trying to be a better person, improve themselves, or whatever Masonic ideal you're currently obsessed with scrambling for.

One good deed doesn't make you a good person.
A lifetime of deeds doesn't make you a good person.
Changing the entire social reward system present in modern society doesn't make you or anyone into a good person because it can't reward true goodness.

This is because character follows a continuity, not a moment and certainly not any deed in any moment. Telling some anon to look into more "accessible" works doesn't give you ("reward" you with) the right to suddenly turn around and start pandering to someone. Your entire system works like that in ways that you cannot, systematically, overcome. Everything is a reward, even true self-improvement. You might do it for yourself, but everyone who sees you do it will suddenly become "corrupt" and do it because they saw you do it. Monkey see monkey do applies in every society, no matter what (brand of) ideals that society espouses.

The reason you can't "become" a good person (if you weren't already) is because good doesn't do it for the reward.


You are fake goods.

>>19497134
>Ah, so that's why they take it up the ass in their rites
Proofs?

Never happens.

This was a lie promoted by King Philippe le Bel.

A True Templar is forbidden from physical sexual conduct outside of the purpose of furthering the bloodline. Homosexuality cannot do this.

t. True Templar

>>19497179
>how the fuck is one trained to ''resist torture''?
By being tortured, but not to the point of death.

>How the fuck are you trained to resist
someone dropping boiling water in your insides?
See above.

>Never understood this meme.

>>19503815
>A lifetime of deeds doesn't make you a good person.
Pretty sure it does. Not that it's my goal, but something can be good even if it's done for reward. Or is even unintentional.
Remember, there's no such thing as altruism. No one has ever done anything good for anything but reward in some form.

>>19497988
>Shroud of Turin didn't even exist yet.
The Shroud of Turin was the cloth that wrapped Jesus' body. Jesus was crucified a thousand years before the Templars were founded.

t. Templar

>>19496803
magic doesn't work because its jewish, jews are powerful because they use magic.

>>19501943
>"Shh.. Nobody knows super secret rituals we are about to show you.. Plenty secrets, very hidden for centuries. Come inside...
>Surprise! We made you go to Church!"
>That's now my idea of Masonry. Way to suck the magic out of it.
Unless the magic works.

t. Templar

>>19503839
>A True Templar is forbidden from physical sexual conduct outside of the purpose of furthering the bloodline.
Fun fact: according to Bernard of Clairveux's Templar rule, they were obliged to be chaste / forbidden from sexual conduct. But that's followed on by being discreet when they visit whores.
Always loved that bit of 12th C realism on human nature.

>>19502663
>Also, no, again, we're not a Christian fraternity. We've got Jewish/Muslim/Deist/Buddhist/Hindu/etc dudes
The only requirement is belief in One God.

Only Christians can choose the Knights Templar appendant degrees.

So yes, a Templar and a Muslim can be in the same lodge. That's the purpose of the lodge, to bring men together in brotherhood who would not normally have discourse.

>>19503881
Requirement, yes. But that doesn't stop the covert message of the degrees.
And most of the appendant bodies are restricted to Trinitarian Christians.

>>19503868
>But that's followed on by being discreet when they visit whores.
source?

>>19503901
Specific Behavior for the Templar Order by Bernard de Clairvaux.

>>19503910
>Specific Behavior for the Templar Order by Bernard de Clairvaux.
quote?

>>19503868
>Fun fact: according to Bernard of Clairveux's Templar rule, they were obliged to be chaste / forbidden from sexual conduct. But that's followed on by being discreet when they visit whores.
>>19503910
>Specific Behavior for the Templar Order by Bernard de Clairvaux.
Incorrect.

That document sets out the following rules for sexual conduct among Templars:

On Married Brothers

69. If married men ask to be admitted to the fraternity, benefice and devotions of the house, we permit you to receive them on the following conditions: that after their death they leave you a part of their estate and all that they have obtained henceforth. Meanwhile, they should lead honest lives and endeavour to act well towards the brothers. But they should not wear white habits or cloaks; moreover, if the lord should die before his lady, the brothers should take part of his estate and let the lady have the rest to support her during her lifetime; for it does not seem right to us that such confréres should live in a house with brothers who have promised chastity to God.

On Sisters

70. The company of women is a dangerous thing, for by it the old devil has led many from the straight path to Paradise. Henceforth, let not ladies be admitted as sisters into the house of the Temple; that is why, very dear brothers, henceforth it is not fitting to follow this custom, that the flower of chastity is always maintained among you.

Let Them Not Have Familiarity with Women

71. We believe it to be a dangerous thing for any religious to look too much upon the face of woman. For this reason none of you may presume to kiss a woman, be it widow, young girl, mother, sister, aunt or any other; and henceforth the Knighthood of Jesus Christ should avoid at all costs the embraces of women, by which men have perished many times, so that they may remain eternally before the face of God with a pure conscience and sure life.

>>19503962
Fair enough. I know it's a thing, though, so i'll have a look.
It was in a Vatican archives book, so i'm willing to trust it.

>>19503971
>Fair enough. I know it's a thing, though, so i'll have a look.
>It was in a Vatican archives book, so i'm willing to trust it.
not without a source you're not.

and stop trying to smear the order.

>>19503995
>and stop trying to smear the order.
This is the work of Philippe's descendants and the Catholic Church, unfortunately.

True Templars are a bloodline now, not a Catholic order.

>>19503995
How is that smearing?
If anything, it helps absolve them of the absurd accusations.
Anyway, it's in The Templars by Barbara Frale, who is a Vatican archivist, and one of the ones who exonerated the Temple by finding the Chinon Parchment.

Will post exact quote when i find it.

>>19504114
>How is that smearing?
>If anything, it helps absolve them of the absurd accusations.
True homosexuality is an absurd accusation, but whoremongering is also. I'm sure a few did it and got away with it, but it was not condoned or allowed, nor mentioned in the Latin Rule or any other rule. Marriage was allowed, and all sexual activity was for the purpose of bringing a Lady into the fold. Now that the Templars are reduced to protectors of a bloodline, it's important for them to generate children.

>>19504114
>Anyway, it's in The Templars by Barbara Frale, who is a Vatican archivist, and one of the ones who exonerated the Temple by finding the Chinon Parchment.
>Will post exact quote when i find it.
I'd like to read this.

>>19503815
I don't think you even remotely understand our organization as well as you think you do. 10/10 nonsense, though.

>>19503881
I'm not sure that I disputed that at any point.

>>19504006
this is bad history

>>19504194
>even remotely understand our organization
It's not about your organization, it's about how the two of you interacted with each other in that moment. I was only responding because of the blatant virtue signaling I saw. Your organization cannot mean more than what its members are able to scrape from the general human gene pool.

>>19504194
>his is bad history
how would you know? you think that just because your Masonic temple stole our symbols, that you are us?

t. Templar

>>19490243
Baphomet was actually Mohammad

So yes.

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>>19504006
>True Templars are a bloodline now, not a Catholic order.
Wrong on both counts. Military orders aren't "bloodlines", no matter what Baigant and Leigh make up. And the Temple turned into the Knights of Christ.

>>19504161
>but whoremongering is also
Not whoremongering. But simply acting like men.
>Now that the Templars are reduced to protectors of a bloodline
But that's not true?

Anyway, pic related. Would recommend reading the whole book. She cites a lot of stuff which had previously not been available to the public.

>>19504249
>how would you know?
He has probably actually studied it. And the most obvious thing is that Phillip no longer has descendants. That line died out shortly after him.
>our
>us
>t.
Full retard.
Anyway, there was no stealing. Just usage. Your larping would be more like stealing.

>>19504229
Keep telling yourself that, buddy. ;)

>>19504249
> actually believing you are a Templar and/or a Templar's descendant
o I am laffin

>>19504414
Now now, he could be descended from a Templar. Like hundreds of thousands of others are.
It's his pretending to be a Templar any more than your standard CBCS member which is laughable.

>>19504359
>>>19504006 (You)
>>True Templars are a bloodline now, not a Catholic order.
>Wrong on both counts. Military orders aren't "bloodlines", no matter what Baigant and Leigh make up. And the Temple turned into the Knights of Christ.
Who?

>>>19504161 (You)
>>but whoremongering is also
>Not whoremongering. But simply acting like men.
Even your fanfic posted above states "IF a brother was discovered on the premises of a brothel and caused a public scandal, he lost his status as a Templar."

This is dissonant with your assertion that whoremondering was allowed.

>>Now that the Templars are reduced to protectors of a bloodline
>But that's not true?
According to you?

And you are?

Nobody.

>Anyway, pic related. Would recommend reading the whole book. She cites a lot of stuff which had previously not been available to the public.
Meaning it's a fanfiction, not a Templar document.

Why bother?

>>>19504249 (You)
>>how would you know?
>He has probably actually studied it. And the most obvious thing is that Phillip no longer has descendants. That line died out shortly after him.
>>our
>>us
>>t.
>Full retard.
If it helps you sleep better to believe this, by all means. But your ad hominem shows your insecurity in your false assertions.

>Anyway, there was no stealing. Just usage. Your larping would be more like stealing.
Using symbols that aren't yours is stealing.

>>19504414
>>>19504229
>Keep telling yourself that, buddy. ;)
Likewise.

>>>19504249 (You)
>> actually believing you are a Templar and/or a Templar's descendant
>o I am laffin
Enjoy, if it makes you feel better.

No one of import actually cares.

>>19504451
>Who?
The people who made up the little story you're telling.
>fanfic
She's a certified Vatican Archivist. Anything she writes can be verified by the Vatican archives. It might be wrong, but it's what we have.
>"IF a brother was discovered on the premises of a brothel and caused a public scandal, he lost his status as a Templar."
Yea. That's the point. That's why they were told to be discreet.
>According to you?
No, according to historical record. The opposition to that is simply according to you, Mr. Nobody.
>Meaning it's a fanfiction, not a Templar document.
Nope. It's Templar documents put into book. Go to Rome and prove her wrong if you're going to cry about it.
>If it helps you sleep better to believe this
No, it doesn't affect me at all, but it is recorded history.
>Using symbols that aren't yours is stealing.
Well you better stop? But seriously, no one owns symbols. Even trademark law stipulates that.

>>19504359
>He has probably actually studied it. And the most obvious thing is that Phillip no longer has descendants. That line died out shortly after him.
wrong again.

he children of Philip IV of France and Joan I of Navarre were:
Margaret (ca. 1288, Paris – after November 1294, Paris). Died in childhood, but betrothed in November 1294 (aged six) to Infante Ferdinand of Castile, later Ferdinand IV of Castile.
Louis X – ( 4 October 1289 – 5 June 1316)
Blanche (1290, Paris– after 13 April 1294, Saint Denis). Died in childhood, but betrothed in December 1291 (aged one) to Infante Ferdinand of Castile, later Ferdinand IV of Castile. Blanche was buried in the Basilica of St Denis.
Philip V – (1292/93–3 January 1322)
Charles IV – (1294–1 February 1328)
Isabella – (c. 1295–23 August 1358). Married Edward II of England and was the mother of Edward III of England. This makes Philip IV the maternal grandfather of Edward III of England and an ancestor of every English king after Edward II.
Robert (1297, Paris – August 1308, Saint Germain-en-Laye). The Flores historiarum of Bernard Guidonis names "Robertum" as youngest of the four sons of Philip IV of France, adding that he died "in flore adolescentiæ suæ" and was buried "in monasterio sororum de Pyssiaco" in August 1308. Betrothed in October 1306 (aged nine) to Constance of Sicily.
All three of Philip's sons who reached adulthood became kings of France, and Isabella, his only surviving daughter, was the queen of England as consort to Edward II of England.

t. Templar

>>19504482
>wrong again.
Oh, the Capets are still around?
>t. Templar
Hey, me too. What preceptory do you hail from?

>>19504476
>The people who made up the little story you're telling.
wow, you like smearing Templars, don't you?

>>fanfic
>She's a certified Vatican Archivist. Anything she writes can be verified by the Vatican archives. It might be wrong, but it's what we have.

>she
>Templar

chose one.

>>"IF a brother was discovered on the premises of a brothel and caused a public scandal, he lost his status as a Templar."
>Yea. That's the point. That's why they were told to be discreet.
Wrong. Those who broke vows weren't told to be discreet to avoid being disavowed, they were told that to save other brothers from temptation. Still, this does not support your original assertion:

>>19503868
>according to Bernard of Clairveux's Templar rule, they were obliged to be chaste / forbidden from sexual conduct. But that's followed on by being discreet when they visit whores.

Which is patently false.

>>According to you?
>No, according to historical record. The opposition to that is simply according to you, Mr. Nobody.
Source? Or Appeal to Authority fallacy coupled with Ad Hominem attack due to inability to support your false assertion?

>>Meaning it's a fanfiction, not a Templar document.
>Nope. It's Templar documents put into book. Go to Rome and prove her wrong if you're going to cry about it.
No True Templar document was ever written by a woman. Link to a True Templar document, if what you say is true, not a fan fiction.

>>If it helps you sleep better to believe this
>No, it doesn't affect me at all, but it is recorded history.
Source?

I didn't think so.

>>Using symbols that aren't yours is stealing.
>Well you better stop? But seriously, no one owns symbols. Even trademark law stipulates that.
The originator of the symbols created them for their own use. A Mason using a Templar symbol is no more a Templar than an atheist wearing a Mason apron is a mason.

>>19504501
>Oh, the Capets are still around?
All three of Philip's sons who reached adulthood became kings of France, and Isabella, his only surviving daughter, was the queen of England as consort to Edward II of England.

And then there are the bastards.

>>19504501
>>t. Templar
>Hey, me too. What preceptory do you hail from?
Not a Mason, a Templar.

>>19504501
>What preceptory do you hail from?
And it's Commandery, not preceptory.

>>19504505
>wow, you like smearing Templars, don't you?
No? I've done literally no smearing. Sorry if history doesn't play well with your larping.
>chose one.
I'll go with >she, because she didn't claim to be a Templar. Lrn2read. She's an archivist for the Vatican.
>they were told that to save other brothers from temptation
Six of one, m8.
>Which is patently false.
Going by the sources. It might be wrong, but i wasn't there to say yea or nay.
>Source?
First of all, you're making the claim, thus the onus is on you. But okay.
After 1308, the Temple was dissolved, and reformed in Portugal as the Knights of Christ, which are still extant. Otherwise members were absorbed into the Hospital of St John, and other orders.
At no point in recorded history were they "protectors of a bloodline", nor were they extant after 1308.
>No True Templar document was ever written by a woman
Again, not claiming they were. It's a modern book written from studying documents of that era. Lrn2history as well.
>The originator of the symbols created them for their own use
Then the Templars stole them, because they sure as shit didn't create them.
>A Mason using a Templar symbol is no more a Templar
Agreed. There are no Templars anymore. Just people playing at Templary.

>>19504548
>At no point in recorded history were they "protectors of a bloodline", nor were they extant after 1308.
That you know of. You who take your knowledge from non-Templar sources.

>>19504512
>All three of Philip's sons
Okay. So are the Capets still around or did it dissolve in 1328?
>Not a Mason, a Templar
So neither?

>>19504519
Only in the USA. Rest of the world uses the proper term of Preceptory or Priory. Commandery *can* be correct, but not the way they're using it.

>>19504556
>That you know of.
Okay then, enlighten me with your sources.

>>19504563
>Okay then, enlighten me with your sources.
You made the claim about the Latin Rule advising Templars to hide their whoremongering. I proved from the Latin Rule you were wrong, and you're so fragile, or just arbitrary and capricious, that you can't accept it.

>>19504578
>deflecting
No, i'm asking for your sources about this "bloodline" nonsense, Michael.
And i can accept i was wrong about the source. It had been a while since i checked that (Vatican approved) book.

>>19504429
MMmmmmmmm dat CBCS. Fair point, he could be some Templar's far-off bastard.

>>19504451
I mean, I'm just saying that you don't understand us, and you're retarded for referring to yourself as a Templar because you think you might be descended from them. It's hilarious, frankly. I'm well aware that I'm not important - never claimed otherwise.

>>19504482
> t. Templar
>>19504512
> Not a Mason, a Templar
>>19504556
>>19504578
o I am still laffin

>>19504519
He's an Aussie, they call them preceptories.

>>19504558
>Okay. So are the Capets still around or did it dissolve in 1328?
The last of the direct Capetians were the daughters of Philip IV's three sons, and Philip IV's daughter, Isabella. Since they were female, they could not transmit their Capetian status to their descendants. But their bloodline persisted.

>>19504558
>>Not a Mason, a Templar
>So neither?
True Templars are not affiliated with Masonry. They are admitted by blood relation only.

>>19504558
>Only in the USA. Rest of the world uses the proper term of Preceptory or Priory. Commandery *can* be correct, but not the way they're using it.
You're still stuck in Mason-land.

Masons are not descended from the Knights Templar genetically or organizationally in any way. They adopted Templar symbols in a huge LARP.

>>19504586
>No, i'm asking for your sources about this "bloodline" nonsense, Michael.
Well that would be family business, wouldn't it?

But then nothing printed exists, right?

and.. who?

>And i can accept i was wrong about the source. It had been a while since i checked that (Vatican approved) book.
Fair enough. This is precisely my assertion.

>>19504594
>o I am still laffin
Not an argument.

>>19504596
>But their bloodline persisted.
Not under Agnatic primogeniture.
>True Templars are not affiliated with Masonry.
True. They're not affiliated with anything since they don't exist anymore. Knights of Christ, however, are another matter.
>They are admitted by blood relation only.
Nope. That's not how the Templars ever received new members. You'd know that if you'd ever studied them. If you're not a noble, or at least knighted by your realms Font d'Honour, you wouldn't be eligible.
>Masons are not descended
Agreed. I was just pointing out the word use.

>>19504608
>Well that would be family business, wouldn't it?
Gee, i'm so surprised you have nothing to prove your claims, or your insults to the order.
Weak, dude.
>But then nothing printed exists, right?
Wut.

I'd suggest you actually go read up on them. You'll be quite surprised.

>>19504621
>>>19504596 (You)
>>But their bloodline persisted.
>Not under Agnatic primogeniture.
"What is genetics."

>>True Templars are not affiliated with Masonry.
>True. They're not affiliated with anything since they don't exist anymore. Knights of Christ, however, are another matter.
"If I don't know about it, it doesn't exist."

>>They are admitted by blood relation only.
>Nope. That's not how the Templars ever received new members. You'd know that if you'd ever studied them. If you're not a noble, or at least knighted by your realms Font d'Honour, you wouldn't be eligible.
The rules changed when they went into hiding following Philippe Le Bel's treachery. Very few survived, which is why family lines became more important than anything else.

>>Masons are not descended
>Agreed. I was just pointing out the word use.
Agreed.

>>>19504608 (You)
>>Well that would be family business, wouldn't it?
>Gee, i'm so surprised you have nothing to prove your claims, or your insults to the order.
>Weak, dude.
"Because you won't share your family secrets with me, they don't exist."

>>But then nothing printed exists, right?
>Wut.
Meaning that nothing is printed in the open historical record after Philippe, for obvious reasons (hiding).

>I'd suggest you actually go read up on them. You'll be quite surprised.
The farther you get from source, the more time you waste. I don't need a Vatican archivist to instruct me on points of salience regarding my own order.

I love this thread so much. We've got Masons arguing with Masons, Templars arguing with Templars, all while they argue with everyone else about how United they are.

>>19504659
>Templars arguing with Templars
Only one Templar here.

And we have no illusions that anyone cares about us.

Except us, and our families.

>>19504654
>"What is genetics."
Separate to bloodline and inheritance, Alex.
>"If I don't know about it, it doesn't exist."
If you can't prove it exists, then most likely it doesn't.
>The rules changed when they went into hiding
Source?
>Very few survived,
Plenty survived. Even in France. Again, that's why we have the Knights of Christ now. The Pope had to make rulings on what to do with all the left overs.
>which is why family lines became more important than anything else.
Why? That's not how the military orders worked previously, and it had no reason to change. And again: Source?
>"Because you won't share your family secrets with me, they don't exist."
No, because they don't exist they don't exist. Deal with it, pleb.
>Meaning that nothing is printed in the open historical record after Philippe
You better go tell that to the Vatican and the Portuguese, because they printed plenty there. Sorry if that messes up your game.
>I don't need a Vatican archivist to instruct me on points of salience regarding my own order.
Fair enough. Especially since you seem to have invented it.
But you might want to learn about the actual order from the 12th C so you don't look like such an idiot with zero understanding of the Order.

>>19504659
>Templars arguing with Templars
We don't have that, though. We have roleplayers arguing with roleplayers.

File: templar.jpg (36KB, 394x550px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 394x550px

Non veni facere voluntatem meam, sed ejus que misit me, Patris.

Calicem salutaris accipiam.

In conspectu Angelorum psallam tibi.

>>19504681
I'm sorry your ineligibility makes you so bitter.

Being Australian is nothing to be ashamed of.

We won't hold it against you.

t. Templar

>>19504698
>Shit, he's proven i'm a fool
>Guess i'll just have to act smug
Sad. You'd be an insult to any actual Templar.

>>19504681
>>"What is genetics."
>Separate to bloodline and inheritance, Alex.
Genetics is bloodline. And no one cares about inheritance of anything but membership these days.

>>19504681
>Plenty survived.
Actually most of the French Templars (the bulk) died. The lion's share in continental Europe were killed or imprisoned.

The Scottish survived.

>That's not how the military orders worked previously, and it had no reason to change.
Well being nearly extinguished by a corrupt King and the Catholic Church changes things, now doesn't it?

>they don't exist.
There's more to this life than exists in your philosophy, Horatio.

>You better go tell that to the Vatican and the Portuguese
The Vatican and Portugese have records of our family secrets after the Vatican murdered most of the families?

What is cognitive dissonance.

>you don't look like
No one cares what you think we look like.

Especially us.

>>19504706
>Sad. You'd be an insult to any actual Templar.
Says the ineligible.

Again, I'm sorry you're bitter.

>>19504706
I'm not that anon but I'm amazed by this
>>19503881
>Only Christians can choose the Knights Templar appendant degrees.

Because that's implying that Christians can upgrade to ~Templars~ in Masonry regardless of bloodline, while
>>19504006
>True Templars are a bloodline now
Says you have to be born in.

Soo, pretty much Masons make Christians (And I assume there are branches for other faiths) into Templars as a pale imitation of ACTUAL bloodline Templars?

>>19493885

A tranny otherkin.

>>19504723
>Soo, pretty much Masons make Christians (And I assume there are branches for other faiths) into Templars as a pale imitation of ACTUAL bloodline Templars?
Exactly this.

t. Templar

>>19490337
>the goat symbol was created by Eliphas Levi in 1856
Thanks for saving me the effort

>>19496693
So being a mason is an edgy Christian thing?

>>19504723
>Soo, pretty much Masons make Christians (And I assume there are branches for other faiths) into Templars as a pale imitation of ACTUAL bloodline Templars?
No self-respecting Templar by blood would be caught in a Masonic Temple, with all their pagan symbolism and ritual.

>>19504714
>And no one cares about inheritance
Spoken like a true fourthborn.
>The Scottish survived.
And the Portuguese, Spanish, Germans, English, as well as most of the clerical staff.
For someone who likes LARPing as a Templar, you really don't know much about them.
>Well being nearly extinguished by a corrupt King and the Catholic Church changes things, now doesn't it?
Only according to you and your magic sources, Andrew Ramsay.
>There's more to this life than exists in your philosophy, Horatio.
Perhaps, but if you can't prove it, it can't be worth much.
>The Vatican and Portugese have records of our family secrets
No, they have real records. Such as those of the balance of the Templars and the formation of the Knights of Christ. Real history, not your fake news.

>>19504719
Why don't you tell me who was actually eligible to be a Templar when they existed? I'm guessing you'll get it wrong.

>>19504723
There are no "bloodline Templars." They were dissolved and all their assets given away while their members went elsewhere.
But no, there are no other branches for other faiths. Masonry is Christian, and Templary is one of the paths available to Christian members, along with Rosicrucianism (somewhat more legit).

>>19504742
>with all their pagan symbolism and ritual.
So you don't know anything about Masonry either? Figures. You know Templars used pagan symbols too, when they existed.

>>19504736
>Thanks for saving me the effort
Welcome.

We hate being smeared unjustly. We've been falsely accused of being masons, homosexuals, devil worshippers, illuminati, masters of the universe, etc..

When we are actually champions of right and good against injustice and evil, in whatever way God calls in our lives. Sometimes during conflict, but not always.

t. Templar

>>19504740
>So being a mason is an edgy Christian thing?
Being a Mason only requires a belief in God.

Being a Masonic Templar requires a belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Being a True Templar requires blood descent, or marriage to blood descendants.

>>19504596
>>19504664
>>19504698
>>19504714
>>19504719
>>19504723
>>19504732
>>19504747
>>19504753
> True Templars are not affiliated with Masonry. They are admitted by blood relation only.
> Only one Templar here.
> We won't hold it against you.
> When we are actually champions of right and good against injustice and evil, in whatever way God calls in our lives. Sometimes during conflict, but not always.
> They adopted Templar symbols in a huge LARP.
> They adopted Templar symbols in a huge LARP.
one more time
> They adopted Templar symbols in a huge LARP.
jesus christ could you be any less self-aware right now

>>19504608
> Not an argument.
Don't need arguments, lol.

>>19504659
To be fair, we've got Masonic Knights Templar (who are well aware that they are LARPing) arguing with delusional retards (who are not aware that they are LARPing).

>>19504740
Nah, not really. There's some really cool lessons that are taken from the Christian faith, but there's a bunch of other lessons in there. Mostly we're just relatively good dudes trying to be better dudes with each other's help.

>>19504753
>When we are actually champions of right and good
... On a japanese cartoon masturbating forum. Why do you Americans (which would make you ineligible for any chivalric honour) always have delusions of grandeur.

>>19504747
So, All Faiths are allowed within Masonry but only Christians can keeping moving forward? And Christians become Templars without Bloodties? Wow, that's like Religious Discrimination and Cultural Appropriation at the same time. Does it make Masons feel good that they get Virtue points for including all faiths in public, yet favor Christians in private?

Masons really are the same as any other society. Evangelistic Elitists.

>>19504758
>Americans (which would make you ineligible for any chivalric honour)
From whence did American colonial families descend, by blood?

What are The British Isles.

>>19504764
>but only Christians can keeping moving forward?
It's not really moving forward. There's no degree higher than Master Mason, but most all of the appendant degrees are Trinitarian Christian only. Non-members call them "higher degrees" but that's not really correct.
>ow, that's like Religious Discrimination and Cultural Appropriation at the same time.
We don't let blacks, women, or atheists in either. It's great.

>>19504768
Hah, can't believe you admitted it. But yea, Americans are ineligible. And you never did answer my question. Obviously because you don't know.

>>19504764
No, there's just certain groups that only Christians can join. Okay, so you can't become a KT. There's always Scottish Rite, AMD, etc.

>>19504774
... we definitely let black dudes in. This isn't the 1860s.

>>19504780
>There's always Scottish Rite, AMD, etc.
Only in the USA for Rose Croix. Everywhere else it's Christian. Pretty sure AMD is Christian only, too, because of the Christian degrees in it.
>... we definitely let black dudes in.
Technically yes. But Prince Hall is there to keep negroes and hispanics out of mainstream Freemasonry.

>>19504764
That's me
>>19504774
In my opinion it doesn't matter how "High" the degrees are, just that continuation of Ritual and Ceremony ONLY continue further if you're Christian. Cuz in that case, it's like saying "Convert cuz you know you like this shit" to other Faiths.

Which is also kind of cool because it's like a subversive way to convert opposing faiths into becoming Hardened Chrisitians. That's just what it sounds like to me.

>>19504764
>So, All Faiths are allowed within Masonry but only Christians can keeping moving forward?
All faiths are allowed, and people with no official faith is allowed, as long as they profess to believe in a single God.

>And Christians become Templars without Bloodties?
They pretend to. Mostly under appendant bodies of the York Rite. Only blood ties make a true Templar.

Non-Christians have their own advanced degrees within Masonry. Generally a Christian can take on Non-Christian degrees, but Non-Christians cannot take on the Knight Templar mantle.

>Wow, that's like Religious Discrimination and Cultural Appropriation at the same time. Does it make Masons feel good that they get Virtue points for including all faiths in public, yet favor Christians in private?
Not favor, just differentiation. But few, if any, York Rite Templars are actual blood Templars. Truly devout Templars would probably object to the pagan elements of the Entered Apprentice trhough Master Mason degrees (1st-3rd degrees) necessary to complete before becoming a Templar, as they would probably have a problem swearing oaths on anything remotely pagan.

>Masons really are the same as any other society. Evangelistic Elitists.
In a sense. Which is contrary to the message of Christ, and why True Templars tend to avoid.

>>19504774
>We don't let blacks, women, or atheists in either. It's great.
Patently false. I know many masons who are black.

True about women and atheists, though.

Women have their own appendant bodies (Order of the Eastern Star), but they cannot be Masons.

>>19504790
Well, Masonry started out as purely and overtly Christian. Now non-Christians may join the Craft degrees (since 1813), but the appendant bodies just never changed.
It'd be pretty hard to make St Andrews degrees non-sectarian anyway. Even in France under the GOdF, they couldn't change it, just let atheists go in with their cognitive dissonance.

>>19504796
>as long as they profess to believe in a single God.
Actually no. Hindus and pagans are permitted to join. It's interesting phrasing.
>Only blood ties make a true Templar.
Nope. You know who was in charge of the Temple, right? As in, who had supreme power over it, and without them anyone else is just LARPing?
>pagan elements of the Entered Apprentice trhough Master Mason
Yea? What elements are those?
>as they would probably have a problem swearing oaths on anything remotely pagan.
Pretty sure the Bible isn't pagan, American.

>>19504805
>I know many masons who are black.
Prince Hall Masons.

>>19504787
Nah, AMD is open to non-Christians. That's another thing that the UK restricts to Christians that the US doesn't.

> But Prince Hall is there to keep negroes and hispanics out of mainstream Freemasonry.
> using "negroes"
Sounds like you need to revisit your degree lessons, brother. FYI, mainstream Masonry in the vast majority of Jurisdictions don't have a problem with non-white brothers - because there is no reason to have a problem. Don't be a dick.

>>19504796
> They pretend to. Mostly under appendant bodies of the York Rite. Only blood ties make a true Templar.
> Not favor, just differentiation. But few, if any, York Rite Templars are actual blood Templars. Truly devout Templars would probably object to the pagan elements of the Entered Apprentice trhough Master Mason degrees (1st-3rd degrees) necessary to complete before becoming a Templar, as they would probably have a problem swearing oaths on anything remotely pagan.
[UN-IRONIC LARPING INTENSIFIES]

>>19504805
He's just being a dick.

>>19504812
... and "mainstream" Masons, too. Again, what century are you from? Good Lord.

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Ofc they didn't. Jews control the media.

>>19493885
Unification of male and female

>>19504820
>Nah, AMD is open to non-Christians.
Fair enough. You wacky Yankees. Though i really did love visiting an A&AR Valley where they were performing a 17th, 18th, and a 25th (among others), because all the Jews there looked very uncomfortable.
>Sounds like you need to revisit your degree lessons
Always do, but whyfore?
>and "mainstream" Masons, too.
That is literally the term PHA lodges use about their state counterparts. At least the ones i've visited did.
Don't go all tumblr on me, bro.

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>>19504808
>Actually no. Hindus and pagans are permitted to join. It's interesting phrasing.
The requirement is that you believe in a supreme being that is a creator god. This excludes atheists and polytheists, though it's probably jurisdictional in interpretation, and you'll never be grilled about it.

Still too open for a devout Templar.

>>Only blood ties make a true Templar.
>Nope. You know who was in charge of the Temple, right? As in, who had supreme power over it, and without them anyone else is just LARPing?
I am aware that you are still stuck in the realm of military orders given before Philippe Le Bel's treachery, and that you keep asking me to give out family secrets about what happened after, but just because you don't know something, doesn't mean it does not exist.

Saying so makes you look like you have an agenda.

>>pagan elements of the Entered Apprentice trhough Master Mason
>Yea? What elements are those?
>Pretty sure the Bible isn't pagan, American.
Pic related is, Australian.

"Jah" is Yahweh, "Bel" is Baal (a demon), and "On" is Oannes (another demon). You can join the name of God to pagan entities if you like, but a true Knight Templar by blood opposes such, as we worship God Almighty and His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ.

>>19504796
So it's like a Class system where you pick the next step according to which fits your preference? No wonder there's strife. Masons bring in everyone for 3 Degrees, and then divide them back up again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like playing a team sport against your classmates although you're from the same school.

>>19504833
I'm not criticizing the usage of the term "mainstream," I'm just pointing out that despite your repeated insistence that "negroes" go to Prince Hall, and that Prince Hall is designed to keep blacks/Hispanics out of mainstream Masonry, there are plenty of brothers who are both mainstream and black. Your attitude towards our black brothers is both unbrotherly and damaging to the reputation of the institution.

>>19504842
>So it's like a Class system where you pick the next step according to which fits your preference? No wonder there's strife. Masons bring in everyone for 3 Degrees, and then divide them back up again.
Basically, yes. The appendant bodies are secrets within secrets.

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like playing a team sport against your classmates although you're from the same school.
Somewhat except there is no competition, supposedly. Just compartmentalization.

>>19504841
> LARPing this hard.

>>19504842
1) the person you're replying to is a non-Mason with an agenda, and 2) no, we're all still Brother Master Masons. There's just other clubs that people can join.

>>19504841
>This excludes atheists and polytheists
Atheists yes, but not polytheists, since they usually have a supreme creator God (Vishnu, Dagda, etc).
>I am aware that you are still stuck in the realm of truth and verifiable fact
FTFY. And even if your baseless shite were true, it would have no bearing on the actual KTs who were dissolved (big hint for you there). They would just be imposters in every definition. How are you not getting this?
>Pic related is
But it isn't? And that's not the Bible, which members are obligated upon.
>"Jah" is Yahweh, "Bel" is Baal (a demon), and "On" is Oannes (another demon).
Nope. Read what you posted. They're words meaning "Lord" or similar, and it precedes the Christian name of God as an honourific.
As in, Bel/Bul means lord. Baal Hammon is the Phoenician deity, because it means "Lord Hammon."

>>19504842
>So it's like a Class system where you pick the next step according to which fits your preference?
Pretty much, yea. Elective subjects based on interests. But there's no "against" or anything. Most guys join everything.

>>19504847
>Your attitude towards our black brothers is both unbrotherly
I'm plenty brotherly towards them, and a few are the absolute best brothers i have the pleasure of knowing. But they should still be separated. No harm in that. Same with the Jews and others.

>>19504848
Then watching other Masons make advancements in society is like watching a former Classmate get accepted into NFL, no?

>>19504857
>it would have no bearing on the actual KTs who were dissolved (big hint for you there). They would just be imposters in every definition.

"The only authentic records that exist are public records I have read."

>>19504857
>And that's not the Bible, which members are obligated upon.
No, that's the description of a ritual that a true Knight Templar (by blood) wouldn't be caught dead performing.

>Nope. Read what you posted. They're words meaning "Lord" or similar, and it precedes the Christian name of God as an honourific.
As in, Bel/Bul means lord. Baal Hammon is the Phoenician deity, because it means "Lord Hammon."

Jah:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Bel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

On:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapa#As_Oannes

Not very Christian, is it?

t. Templar.

>>19504863
>Then watching other Masons make advancements in society is like watching a former Classmate get accepted into NFL, no?
More like being accepted into a club you're not welcome in. Elitist, divisive, and unchristian, IMHO.

t. Templar

>>19504877
>You're stuck in the wrong century.
>john_oliver.jpg
M8, i suggest you go back to the Quadrivium, and whatever your version of the WTs and SW charge after is.

>>19504890
> I have read."
No, i'm willing to accept other sources. That's what learning is. But you have provided none.
>No, that's the description of a ritual that a true Knight Templar (by blood) wouldn't be caught dead performing.
Yea? Why not? You know KTs had some pretty interesting actual ceremonies themselves, right? And as always, blood does not constitute membership.
>Jah
>Bel
>On
Okay? Did you not read my post, or even what you posted? All three of those are words of their own. Not deities. That's the point of the degree.
>Not very Christian, is it?
It is, actually. But it's mostly a course on lexiology.

>>19504893
>Elitist
Typical American peasant.

>>19504857
Gee whiz, segregation of the races sure is brotherly! I'm amazed that the Fraternity still attracts racist pieces of shit who clearly prefer to sleep through their degrees instead of paying attention.

>>19504890
You're really stuck on this whole blood-LARPing thing.

>>19504877
Oh, and the Charge to the Brethren, if your VPM (since i know a lot of ya'll don't do the Inner Working) has it. Haven't seen one, so i'm not sure.

>>19504901
>segregation of the races sure is brotherly!
I don't see how it prevents being brotherly.
>racist
Dude, how are you even a Mason? You know the rituals themselves enforce this, right? Get on the right side of history, as you libtards like to say.
> sleep through their degrees
M8, I hold the equivalent of a Silver Matchbox, and wrote my jurisdiction degree study programs. You're welcome to lecture me where i might be wrong, but you'll want to back it up quite well.

>>19504900
I'm not sure what John Oliver's discussion tactics have to do with the Quadrivium. They might have something to do with the Trivium, though. Kind of reinforcing the idea that you need to go back and watch some degrees.

>>19504900
>No, i'm willing to accept other sources. That's what learning is. But you have provided none.

"What is a family secret."

>>19504900
>>No, that's the description of a ritual that a true Knight Templar (by blood) wouldn't be caught dead performing.
>Yea? Why not?
Because Yahweh and Jesus Christ forbid idol worship.

>>19504900
>All three of those are words of their own. Not deities.
Patently false, as has been demonstrated.

>>19504900
>>Not very Christian, is it?
>It is, actually. But it's mostly a course on lexiology.
Doctrines of demons.

>>19504900
>Typical American peasant.
Typical elitist Freemason.

Proverbs 22:2
The rich and the poor have a common bond, The LORD is the maker of them all.

Romans 3:22-24
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

t. Templar

>>19504909
I confer degrees in my lodge (and at other lodges as requested), including giving the lectures, and nowhere in the work does it condone the racist behavior you're exemplifying, nor call for segregation.

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>>19496733

>he doesn't know the Kabbalah is a mystery religion not exclusive to Judaism

What a retard. Muslims and Christians both have their mystery religions as well and they all draw from the same source. Read a book my dude.

>>19504919
Dude, enough with the LARPing. Seek mental healthcare.

>>19504930
>Dude, enough with the LARPing. Seek mental healthcare.
I'll consider your ad-hominem attack a concession of defeat in this debate.

Good day, sir.

t. Templar

>>19504925
Isn't active selection towards furthering your own preference (in other degrees) willingly choosing to segregate yourself?

>>19504912
>I'm not sure what John Oliver's discussion tactics have to do with the Quadrivium.
Sorry, separate thing. I was mocking your "current year means my beliefs are the only ones!" tactic. The quadrivium teaches us to study nature and science. Science teaches us that there are differences between and different qualities of people.
>Kind of reinforcing the idea that you need to go back and watch some degrees.
Again, cite some stuff where i might be wrong. I don't really want to type out all our SW charges, but i'm happy to summarise where needed.

>>19504919
>"What is a family secret."
Probably not the thing you refuse to shut up about? But clearly you can't prove it, otherwise you would have. If it really was a secret, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
>Because Yahweh and Jesus Christ forbid idol worship.
Okay? No idol worship in Masonry, so i'm not getting the concern. We don't even do Mary worship.
>Patently false, as has been demonstrated.
You demonstrated that you were wrong, though? Read what you posted. Those words don't exist as a single use.
>Doctrines of demons.
Wut. Lexiolgy is the study and use of words, you philistine.
>Typical elitist Freemason
Yea, someone who was actually in a chivalric order wouldn't complain about elitism. Way to give away your peasant status.
>Bible quotes
That's lovely, but i'm not God.

>>19504925
>does it condone the racist behavior you're exemplifying, nor call for segregation.
What state are you in? Because i have a few USA ritual books, and would love to pick out some direct quotes.
And just so you know, my Emulation working points out the differences between men and justification of station.

>>19504927
>Kabbalah is a mystery religion
Eh, it's an initiatic tool. I wouldn't call it a religion per se.

>>19504936
> he thinks that someone making fun of him means he won
That's adorable! I'm not even same person you've been arguing with, dumbass.

>>19504944
He's talking about separating guys at the very base level by race. Pretty different.

>>19504945
Go for it, I'm curious. We're all Preston-Webb and my Jurisdiction doesn't permit ritual books, so work with what you've got. Let's see how you twist it to justify your attitude.

>>19504963
Well what state. Ya'll are all very different. Sorry if it's offensive to say that.

>>19504967
I'm not the one you are replying to, but this stuff gives me the creeps. I'm positive there aren't many Lodges of that specific branch, so asking for a State pretty much narrows the scope. It's like Mason Doxxing. That's why I'd never join.

>>19504971
In the USA? Even in Rhode Island, the smallest Masonic state, there are about 100 lodges (more if you count Prince Hall). And i wasn't asking for his individual lodge.

>>19504967
Texas. One of the most backwards, racist states, and our degreework still doesn't endorse, condone, or justify racism in the Craft.

Like I said, we're not allowed to have ritual books, so you'll have to improvise with an unofficial cipher or another Jurisdiction's plaintext.

>>19504945
>If it really was a secret, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
The records themselves are secret, not the concept of genetic descent by blood.

>No idol worship in Masonry, so i'm not getting the concern.
Calling YHWH by any other name is idol worship. Calling God "Jahbelon" is idol worship, to a true Templar (but not to the Masonic pretenders, apparently).

>Lexiolgy is the study and use of words, you philistine.
"Lexicology" is a poor excuse for pretending that Baal is not a demon in the bible, or that Oannes (On) is not a Sumerian deity, or that Hindu pantheons are not pagan.

2 Kings 17:16
And they abandoned all the commandments of the Lord their God, and made for themselves metal images of two calves; and they made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.

Jeremiah 32:35
They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech,

1 Kings 18:40
And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.

We see you.

>Yea, someone who was actually in a chivalric order wouldn't complain about elitism.
A pagan knight wouldn't, but a Templar Knight would:

On the Communal Life

34. One reads in the Holy Scriptures: Dividebatur singulis prout cuique opus erat. That is to say that to each was given according to his need. For this reason we say that no-one should be elevated among you, but all should take care of the sick; and he who is less ill should thank God and not be troubled; and let whoever is worse humble himself through his infirmity and not become proud through pity. In this way all members will live in peace. And we forbid anyone to embrace excessive abstinence; but firmly keep the communal life.

From the Latin Rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Rule

t. Templar

>>19504971
It's fine, he's just asking me what my Jurisdiction is. No harm done or intended. It'd be like me asking you what country or US State you live in. It's very broad.

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So what's up with the Knights Hospitaller? Are they still around? I've heard they inherited a lot of the Templars shit after they were disbanded, but are they a secret society or just a Christian organization? Are people who say they are Templars possibly telling the truth or were they all wiped out and it's just try-hards larping?

Also Hospitaller Uniforms are way cooler looking.

>>19504987
BRB bedtime, it's late here.

>>19504981
Damn, haven't even been close. Hell, haven't seen anything lower than Georgia.
But righto, will grab quotes momentarily.
>Calling YHWH by any other name is idol worship.
No? Idol worship is idol worship.
>Calling God "Jahbelon" is idol worship
If "Jahbulon" were a deity instead of an honourific, perhaps. But that isn't the case. It's literally the same as calling Him "father" or "almighty." Do you object to those, too?
>pretending that Baal is not a demon in the bible
I wasn't pretending that, though. Calling it a daemon is folly, as there are no other Gods, nor are there daemons. It's the word as a word what matters. It's not used as a name. Are you also confused when people refer to a jack?
>or that Hindu pantheons are not pagan
They explicitly are, though? I never argued that.
> but a Templar Knight would
No they wouldn't. They were themselves the elite. Otherwise they were not permitted to join, and could only ever hope to be a sergeant.
>For this reason we say that no-one should be elevated among you
>among you
Important point. And you know there was still a leadership structure, right? Such as a Grand Master?

>>19505001
>Are they still around?
Yea, they're the Knights of Malta now, and have headquarters in the Vatican, since Napoleon kicked them out of Malta, and the Turks kicked them out of Rhodes.
They're a Catholic chivalric order, which are basically just elite wank now.
> Are people who say they are Templars possibly telling the truth
Not wiped out. They just turned into the Portuguese Knights of Christ. That's why there's the conspiracy of them and Oak Island.
>Also Hospitaller Uniforms are way cooler looking.
That pic isn't real authentic. KTs were cooler until the dissolution. Later the KsH pulled ahead in aesthetics.

>>19505010
obviously for >>19504986

>>19505010
>they're the Knights of Malta now
>a Catholic chivalric order, which are basically just elite wank

>Order of Malta is a (Catholic) Freemason Degree
>Knight Templar is a (Christian) Freemason Degree

Why segregate race when you already segregate religion in your order BAKA

>>19504981
First off, our admission procedures impose segregation by accepting no one of slave descent, no one handicapped/disfigured (physically or mentally), nor in a position of servitude, and in general only accept worthy men.
But for the most overt ritual examples, the Charge After Initiation makes mention of the obligations owed to the "land of your blood" and to "be exemplary in the discharge of the duties to your people", "never countenancing and act which may have a tendency to subvert the peace and good order of your society."
The 2nd WTs state, "Distinctions among men are necessary to preserve subordination and societies."
The 2nd TB also describes how people of a different nation were justly slewn for the benefit of the Gileadites, and their racial differences were a way by which to know who to kill.
3rd Charge After Investiture describes superiority of station, and the Charge After Raising says "you are always to recommend to inferiors, obedience and submission"
The Inner Working describes a particular tribe in Palestine (can't mention the name without breaking Ob., but it's in the Bible), by virtue of their race as being exalted as perfect craftsmen. In fact, the same thing was said of HAb. And the Charge to the Brethren (the one the Grand Master normally does) says, "Brethren, such is the nature of the world, that as some are by nature able to rule and teach, so others are placed to submit and learn; humility in each being an essential qualification."

And above all, studying the Quadrivium (the mysteries of nature and science) should teach you of the differences and suitabilities of the different races.

Remember, there's nothing wrong with racism. It doesn't mean hate. It just means acknowledging that we're different and made for different things.


>>19505049
>Order of Malta is a (Catholic) Freemason Degree
Hah, not quite. The Order of Malta is just appendant to the Knight Templar degree. All Trinitiarian Christians may receive it.

>>19505113
sounds like a bunch of larping faggots, you should realize this is the 21st century and stop playing pretend knights.

>>19505113
This is probably the most informative answer I've gotten from you guys. Honestly. Own that shit. If you're racist, be racist. Be consistent. Not hypocritical. Consistency demonstrates reliability, hypocrisy demonstrates inconsistency.

Of COURSE we're better disposed to our own backgrounds. Inuits can survive the cold, while Africans can survive the arid earth. I don't know how somewhere along the lines we all decided that to be racist means condemning someone for their predispositions.

But seriously. To each their own means we're all better at something than someone else. Otherwise we'd all suck at everything trying to even out humanity than to embrace strength and unity over strife and intolerance. I got nothing against Masons, or Templars, or whoever else in the Esoteric Community. Just practice CONSISTENCY. Inconsistency makes everyone doubt.

Now if everyone could erase stigma from taking pride in one's own race, we'd all be free of stupidity like perceived exploitation.

>>19505134
That's not our LARPing shit. That's actual learning. We LARP elsewhere, and still use it to learn.

>>19505146
>I don't know how somewhere along the lines we all decided that to be racist means condemning someone for their predispositions.
Exactly. Or worse, that the only way to not be racist is to condemn one's own people to miscegenation.

>>19505158
It's like saying "Fake it til you make it" if you deny yourself pride.

In general, you'd start by seeing You for what you REALLY are. And if what you see bothers you, THEN you start making changes. You don't start by saying "I'm not Racist" when you feel differently inside. You can't Pretend you're above that before you even acknowledge that you ARE that. Know what I'm saying?

>>19505146
>>19505158
Because the pride stopped and we needed a word to describe people who were acting on pure hatred. Everyone notices racial differences. Having a name for it just makes you look like an idiot. You can't redefine the historical context of a word by being polite amongst yourselves.

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>>19505167
>Know what I'm saying?
Fo' shizzle.

>>19505173
>You can't redefine the historical context of a word by being polite amongst yourselves.
Naw nigga, das our word. We takin' it back.

>>19505177
Thank you for proving both of our points

>>19505173
>You can't redefine the historical context of a word by being polite amongst yourselves.
Over enough time you can.

>>19496693
Faggot alert, hide your kids

Texasfag here.

>>19505113
> First off, our admission procedures impose segregation by accepting no one of slave descent,
No, it doesn't. It does prohibit bondsmen, which you've pointed out, but it says nothing about descendants of slaves. That's pure revisionism on your part.
> But for the most overt ritual examples, the Charge After Initiation makes mention [ ... ]
So here we see a difference in phrasing, as we use "your country," but "never countenancing and act which may have a tendency to subvert the peace and good order of your society" has nothing to do with race - that's twisting on your part.
> The 2nd TB also describes how people of a different nation were [ ... ]
Their linguistic differences, not just their racial differences, but whatever. This wasn't about their race, though. This tribe was the aggressor - their language was a way of identifying them, but it wasn't the justification for killing them. It's an interesting example, but you're still wrong, as with the previous examples.
> The Inner Working describes a particular tribe in Palestine [ ... ]
I'm fairly certain I know the tribe you're talking about - based on your description it sounds like they're mentioned in our Chapter degrees. They're definitely mentioned as being excellent craftsmen, but, once again, "by virtue of their race" appears to either be a jurisdictional phrasing difference, or more revisionism on your part, which I think is more likely.
> The 2nd WTs state, "Distinctions among men are necessary to preserve subordination and societies."
> 3rd Charge After Investiture [ ... ]
> And the Charge to the Brethren [ ... ]
I want you to specifically point out where these say anything about race.
> Remember, there's nothing wrong with racism. It doesn't mean hate. It just means acknowledging that we're different and made for different things.
This is sad and disgusting. I'm glad that the old guard is dying. The sooner we don't have to hear this racist drivel, the better.

More Texasfag here.

>>19505146
You shouldn't buy that as an answer. He is very deliberately taking his racist views and applying it to a fraternity that SPECIFICALLY STANDS AGAINST this kind of shit. Masons should me on the level, and he's arguing directly against that.

>>19505158
> miscegenation
> un-ironically saying this.
You are literally white supremacist trash. I hope that someone in your lodge gets wise and brings up on Charges of as many and any sort someday.

>>19505173
This guy gets it.

>>19505656
Fuck, this is what I get for trying to type on a cellphone.
> Masons should me on the level
correction: Masons should meet on the level

Whats wrong with Baphomet anyway?
Itd just another god.

>>19497134
Not their fault Islamic soldiers liked butt stuff.

>>19505646
>but it says nothing about descendants of slaves.
Freeborn and of good report. Brother at our local research lodge did a good presentation on that (mostly on the password aspect, though).
> good order of your society" has nothing to do with race
What is society if not your race? I can get how that's hard for a country founded on civic nationalism is hard to understand, but remember the ritual originates in England, which is (was) largely homogenous, and the large threats of the day were French and Scots.
> but it wasn't the justification for killing them.
They killed every Ephraimite they found. That sounds fairly racial, bro.
>"by virtue of their race" appears to either be a jurisdictional phrasing
Biblical, mostly. Your jurisdiction seems to be the odd man out, anyway. It's used in at least three i've been to.
>I want you to specifically point out where these say anything about race.
It's about differences in people. Race is one such thing. Extrapolate.
>This is sad and disgusting.
Why?
>I'm glad that the old guard is dying.
Dude, i'm 25. Every new member under 30 (40 if i'm being generous) is of this correct mindset. Frankly it's refreshing that the Boomer egalitarian nonsense is being killed.
>The sooner we don't have to hear this racist drivel
Or are you trolling? Because that sounds more likely on 4chan.
Otherwise it's sad you've had so much propaganda beaten into you, enough to overwhelm logic.

>>19505656
>to a fraternity that SPECIFICALLY STANDS AGAINST this kind of shit
It specifically doesn't. Our prejudices are core principles. Otherwise we'd let everyone in.
>Masons should me on the level
We do. I would never argue against that.
> I hope that someone in your lodge gets wise and brings up on Charges
What charges? And who would support them?

>>19505679
No, it's a concept.

>>19505854
> Freeborn and of good report.
So, not born a slave, and has been properly investigated. Still nothing about being descended from slaves.
> What is society if not your race?
A whole lot more than that. This is a difficult concept for racists to grasp.
> They killed every Ephraimite they found.
Yep. Think very carefully about the ritual. It wasn't just any Ephraimites - it was the retreating host trying to re-cross the Jordan. So, all soldiers. Nice try, though.
> It's about differences in people. Race is one such thing. Extrapolate.
Sorry, you're making that claim, that burden of proof is on you.
> Why?
Racism, and the little mind games that are required to go along with it, generally are sad and disgusting. Again, this may be beyond your ability to grasp.
> Dude, i'm 25. [ ... ]
Sad to hear that y'all have regressed. Here, the only people making these arguments are the halfway-senile octogenarian PMs.
> It specifically doesn't.
Again, I urge you to pay attention to the work someday. Maybe not today, but someday.
> We do. I would never argue against that.
You already have and do. You call blacks "negroes" and call/support the racial segregation of the Craft. You can't argue that you argue for equality, and do this, too. End of story.

>>19506257
>So, not born a slave
Born of them, though. Their agency can still be questionable. Thought you guys were bigger on it there. Especially in a CSA state.
>A whole lot more than that.
Okay. What then? Logically it would be the people pulling in one direction. Different races in the same nation wouldn't be doing that.
>So, all soldiers.
You really think they let the camp followers go free? That'd be quite an easy way out.
>that burden of proof is on you.
Fair enough. But if you are a Mason, you'd know that there's always more than just the surface level we're given. Hard to source that, sadly.
>Racism, and the little mind games that are required to go along with it, generally are sad and disgusting.
Okay. Why? Or is it just a tautology for which you have no actual reason to believe? Just drilled in by your state propaganda, perhaps?
>Sad to hear that y'all have regressed.
How is learning from science some kind of regression?
>Here, the only people making these arguments are the halfway-senile octogenarian PMs.
No wonder it's struggling there, then.
>Again, I urge you to pay attention to the work someday.
Always do. But nice ad hom in lieu of a citation.
> You call blacks "negroes" and call/support the racial segregation of the Craft.
So? I call for the segregation of all society. Doesn't mean i hate other races or would disrespect a brother.
>You can't argue that you argue for equality
Not general equality. That's a fiction. People aren't equal, and anyone saying otherwise is a liar. But in a Masonic lodge, we all meet on the level. From dustman to Duke.

>>19506277
> Their agency can still be questionable.
[Citation needed.] They're just as free as you or I.
> Logically it would be the people pulling in one direction. Different races in the same nation wouldn't be doing that.
This would also apply rich/poor, conservative/liberal, etc, but that doesn't make them separate societies - neither necessarily does race/religion.
> You really think they let the camp followers go free?
They were part of the invading host, so yeah, they were killed. Still wasn't a genocide of just any Ephraimites.
> Why? Or is it just a tautology [ ... ]
> How is learning from science [ ... ]
You keep making these claims, where's your proof?
> No wonder it's struggling there, then.
Actually, Masonry in the US (especially in larger states like TX/CA/PA/etc) is seeing a pretty cool revival among young guys. There's a perception that we're struggling because the artificially-inflated numbers born of rampant recruiting are finally slowing. That's an interesting and different discussion for another time.
> I call for the segregation of all society. Doesn't mean i hate other races or would disrespect a brother.
Ah, yes, you don't hate other races, so you call to have them as far away from you as possible, and you don't disrespect brothers, so you call them negroes. Got it.
> People aren't equal, and anyone saying otherwise is a liar. But in a Masonic lodge, we all meet on the level.
I'm not saying all people are equal. I am however, saying that the ideas you are presenting in regards to race are both inconsistent with your claim to meet on the level, and are incompatible with Masonic brotherhood in general.

The point of freemasonry is to make man better? And I see that something as this is close to Templars as well. How many of you feel as you are better men when you're fighting each other here?

>>19506922
"Fighting" is a strong word. I prefer "arguing." Some of the things we're discussing have very different takes among different brothers. Even if it gets heated sometimes, it's important to have these discussions, so that we can improve in our own knowledge, be exposed to different opinions, and both spread & receive light. It's not always pretty.

Also, the guy claiming to be a Templar by blood right is a delusional lunatic. As unlikely as it may be, he might be a direct descendant of theirs - but that doesn't mean he's a Templar. To the best of my family's knowledge, we're directly descended from Edward II - that doesn't make me a noble.

>>19506922
The point of freemasonry is to gain power over the common man through deception.

>>19506385
>This would also apply rich/poor, conservative/liberal
Indeed.
> neither necessarily does race/religion.
So what does, according to you?
>You keep making these claims, where's your proof?
Your own posts, i suppose? Where you keep saying "it's disgusting because i've been told it's disgusting!"
>Masonry in the US (especially in larger states like TX/CA/PA/etc) is seeing a pretty cool revival among young guys
Then i'm sorry you're going to see your perceptions challenged further.
And it's the same here. Kinda think we needed more of a cull, though, to get rid of all the lodestone buildings and shit.
>Ah, yes, you don't hate other races, so you call to have them as far away from you as possible,
Not even far away. Just separate where they belong. I won't hate them just because you think i should.
>and you don't disrespect brothers, so you call them negroes.
Hardly a disrespectful term. I don't rock up to PHA lodges in the USA and shout, "What's happenin' my porch monkey brothas! How 'bout dem crime and education statistics which show you as a net detriment in every way?" whilst wearing blackface.
Rather, we all meet on the level, and are equal in Masonry.
>saying that the ideas you are presenting in regards to race are both inconsistent with your claim to meet on the level,
But that makes no sense? Again, we all meet on the level, regardless of how we are outside. If you acknowledge that people are not equal, how are you any different with such a view?
>and are incompatible with Masonic brotherhood in general.
Nah.

>>19506922
>How many of you feel as you are better men when you're fighting each other here?
Growth and betterment can only come from struggle.

>>19508925
> Negroes
> Not a disrespectful term.
You have to be willfully obtuse.

>>19509587
Or you liberals are overly sensitive?

>>19509692
> thinking that not being a racist dickhead is a liberal concern
I shiggy diggy.

t. moderate conservative

>>19490337
This is bullshit, Baphomet predates Eliphas Levi and also is not a bastardization of "Mohammed."

If you believe this you have been misled.

>>19509703
> thinking that not being a racist dickhead is a liberal concern
It specifically is. Especially since you've yet to explain why "racism" is such a bad thing beyond your feelings.

>>19509723
I'm not sure if you're capable of understanding this, but being hurtful to other people is a bad thing. I can't tell if I'm talking to a five-year-old, or a sociopath.

>>19509741
>but being hurtful to other people is a bad thing.
It can be, aye. But thoughtcrime doesn't really hurt anyway. You're also making the assumption that the people being hurt matter.
> I can't tell if I'm talking to a five-year-old
Ironic, given your Bambi-like naiveté.

>>19509760
> You're also making the assumption that the people being hurt matter.
It is at this point very clear that the ideas of brotherly love and charity/caritas never took hold with you. What a waste of time and resources for the Craft.

>>19509809
>It is at this point very clear that the ideas of brotherly love and charity/caritas never took hold with you.
Quite a side step there.
But anyway, brotherly love did. But you're right that caritas didn't, because that's not the word. You should look into the history of the ritual, where you'll find that ἀγάπη is the correct term. Not this alms giving nonsense which has laid the organisation low.
>What a waste of time and resources for the Craft.
Why's that? One might think that promulgating misinterpretations like yours would be a bigger waste, like we have seen for the past century.

>>19509819
> Quite a side step there.
No lateral movement here.
> But anyway, brotherly love did. But you're right that caritas didn't, because that's not the word. You should look into the history of the ritual, where you'll find that ἀγάπη is the correct term. Not this alms giving nonsense which has laid the organisation low.
... Maybe you should educate yourself before you make that kind of claim.

Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape
> Agape (Ancient Greek ἀγάπη, agápē) is a Greco-Christian term referring to love, "the highest form of love, charity" and "the love of God for man and of man for God".
> Within Christianity, agape is considered to be the love originating from God or Christ for mankind.
Then here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(virtue)
> In Christian theology charity, Latin caritas, is understood by Thomas Aquinas as "the friendship of man for God", which "unites us to God". He holds it as "the most excellent of the virtues".
> The phrase Deus caritas est from 1 John 4:8—or Θεὸς ἀγάπη ἐστίν (Theos agapē estin) in the original Greek [4] is translated in the King James Version as: "God is love", and in the Douay-Rheims bible as:"God is charity" (1 John 4:8).
Pay especial attention to this:
> Deus caritas est
> Theos agapē estin

It's the same concept, in different languages, as you now know. Confidence is not always appropriate, especially when you don't know what you're talking about.

Like I said earlier, try putting in the effort to actually learn something in lodge. ;)

>>19509836
>No lateral movement here.
Well you did avoid addressing my statement to say that particular teachings were lost on me. Same with how you've focused on the Latin/Greek usage of the post, instead of the usage.
>... Maybe you should educate yourself before you make that kind of claim.
Yea, not like i've written papers on it to encourage cutting back our charity wing or anything. I take it in your frantic wiki-ing you learned that when the KJV was written, they did so poorly? In that they failed to translate ἀγάπη as the "love of man for God and God for man", which even, as you pointed out Aquinas did. Instead they turned it into Charity, which filtered into our ritual through the years so we lost the true meaning in favour of alms-giving.
>Like I said earlier, try putting in the effort to actually learn something in lodge. ;)
Smugness neither becomes you, nor is deserved, brother.
You might also want to watch the Masonic Roundtable episode on it. But that too might harm your liberal sensibilities.

>>19509860
Fascinating that you're still talking about the practice of charity when I haven't been talking about that, but rather the Virtue of Charity. You say you've even written papers about it but that's cast into doubt by your tunnel vision on my use of the Latin "caritas" instead of "agape" when they mean the same thing. Someone who's done research would understand it and not be so up in arms about Latin vs Greek usage. Feel free to post your academic contributions to the Craft, though.

> You might also want to watch the Masonic Roundtable episode on it. But that too might harm your liberal sensibilities.
Again with this "liberal" thing. Very cute. I actually regularly listen to TMR. Funny that you put TMR and the idea of being offensive to liberal mindsets, given how pro-LDH several of them are. Never really thought of them as "conservative." Additionally, even funnier that you're looking to them as a resource, given how strongly they've stood up for integration, against racism, etc, in the past.

>>19509883
>Fascinating that you're still talking about the practice of charity
I guess we're on two different strands. My apologies. When you brought up the "Brotherly love, charity, and truth" part, i was caught on the, "a-hah, i know how that's wrong" track of thinking.
> not be so up in arms about Latin vs Greek usage.
In many cases no, but again it comes back to when the KJV was translated. Still a sore point for me.
>Again with this "liberal" thing.
If it quacks like a duck and fits like a duck.
>Funny that you put TMR and the idea of being offensive to liberal mindsets, given how pro-LDH several of them are.
They have valid points in that regard, just that their conclusions are wrong. It's when they have topics which are well researched and presented that they all shine. Not just the opinion bits.
>Never really thought of them as "conservative."
In the show? No. But one on one they're certainly southerners. Not sure about RJ, though. Probably not.
>Additionally, even funnier that you're looking to them as a resource, given how strongly they've stood up for integration, against racism, etc, in the past.
Right is right, no matter what other views they have. If they were anti-vaxers or flat earthers, i'd still value the research they'd done on the various subjects. But like now, makes me curious about some of their other views where they have clearly avoided such research.

>>19493433
The Templars absorbed their teachings and wealth from the Zoroastrian Assassins, and are essentially a continuation. They bought their way into the church, and all their possessions lie within the Vatican. The esoteric teachings of all ages.

>>19496196
I'll add.

The transgender nature of ok Baphy represents fusion, and the hands themselves are the old "as above so below.", a hand signal for the Star of Solomon, representing a physical 33, and ultimately broken down to a hyperactive. It is important to note the sum 6 is taken from this, the number of man, while the Pentagram is a 5, number of woman. It's all about gnosis. And buttfucking, as the snakes on the coil symbolizes the activation of ophidian kundalini.

>>19490337
Mehmet
Baphomet
Mohammet
Mohammed

Imhotep

>>19503839
>>Ah, so that's why they take it up the ass in their rites
>This was a lie promoted by King Philippe le Bel.
lol. you know what he's talking about :D

>>19490243
this is complex. They mixed Christianity with occult numerology and symbolism Gnosticism etc. This isn't black and white because it depends on what period of history you are talking about as to what the Baphomet means. The kikes have distorted this is satanic worship I don't think at the Templars time the were Satanic just Luciferian this means different things at diff time periods. Kikes taint everything with evil

>>19490243
It is said they also spit and urinated on the bible and worshiped the head of john the baptist.

>>19503839
Well this also is debatable. There is enough circumstantial evidence ipso facto but again this is long after kikery had tainted the occult. Alleister Crowley promoted and wrote about this and was a high ranking Mason which is just an updated name for Templars , was it a tradition or self fulfilling prophecy hard to say today

>>19501527
I am still so glad that I saved this thread from Page 10. So much cool discussion happened after this post.

>>19510313
Ugh. False. I'm not even a Mason and can even refer to the specific post where one says that you can CHOOSE to become Templar Degree without actually BEING a bloodborn Templar. Dude, read the whole thread before addressing shit that's already be discussed and resolved.
>>19504723
See attached replies.

The current discussion is about inherent racism within some Lodges and tolerance/acceptance within others.

>>19507163
>Also, the guy claiming to be a Templar by blood right is a delusional lunatic. As unlikely as it may be, he might be a direct descendant of theirs - but that doesn't mean he's a Templar. To the best of my family's knowledge, we're directly descended from Edward II - that doesn't make me a noble
Because you know how Templars (the St. Clairs, for example,) handled membership after the order was brutally destroyed by Philippe?

>>19509713
>This is bullshit, Baphomet predates Eliphas Levi and also is not a bastardization of "Mohammed."
>If you believe this you have been misled.
proofs?

none.

>>19509741
>I'm not sure if you're capable of understanding this, but being hurtful to other people is a bad thing. I can't tell if I'm talking to a five-year-old, or a sociopath.
He's a racist sociopath. Not qualified to be a Templar, or even a Mason.

>>19509760
>It can be, aye. But thoughtcrime doesn't really hurt anyway. You're also making the assumption that the people being hurt matter.
Hello IMDB troll Aye Lewis, you stupid cunt.

t. NSA

>>19509819
>Not this alms giving nonsense which has laid the organisation low.
You're a stingy white nigger.

>>19510307
>Templars time the were Satanic just Luciferian
Templars were neither, nor are they now.

They are frankly and explicitly Christian.

>>19510313
> circumstantial evidence
Only obtained under duress, which not a few centuries earlier was considered impossible for confessions.
>Alleister Crowley promoted and wrote about this and was a high ranking Mason
He wasn't a Mason at all. He got scammed by some French and Mexicans because he was a proud idiot.

>>19510368
>Aye Lewis
Wut? Is there a story there?

>>19510370
>Creating dependency instead of providing actual help
You're the niggardly idiot if you think gibs are acceptable.

>>19510308
>It is said they also spit and urinated on the bible and worshiped the head of john the baptist.
This never happened, these were rank-and-file charges that were used against every falsely accused heretic.

The head was the Shroud of Turin.

>>19510377
Yea, the same accusations were leveled against all Phillip IVs enemies. Namely two Popes. So either he was exceptionally lucky in his choice of people who were in his way, or the claims were all bullshit.

>>19510376
>>You're the niggardly idiot if you think gibs are acceptable.

>Charity creates dependence.
You will die poor.

And although i don't wish it, unless you change, you may very well be hellbound. Because you don't know the Spirit of Jesus. I will pray for you.

The Rich Young Man
(Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-30)
16Just then, a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?”

17“Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied, “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18“Which ones?” the man asked.

Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, 19honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.’d”

20“All these I have kept,” said the young man. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

>>19510386
>You will die poor.
Because i don't throw things away and prefer sustainable investments?
>Because you don't know the Spirit of Jesus
Wow, that's quite a party trick, being able to see people as God does. I mean, you're kinda heretical in claiming that ability, but it's neat.
>you may very well be hellbound
You should read the Bible some time. Especially the NT.

>>19510397
>Because i don't throw things away and prefer sustainable investments?
No. Because you're too stingy to realize you should be loving people ad using things, not loving things and using people. I feel sorry for you.

>>Because you don't know the Spirit of Jesus
>Wow, that's quite a party trick, being able to see people as God does. I mean, you're kinda heretical in claiming that ability, but it's neat.
As Matthew 5:39-48 shares with us, we are not to be generous with only those we
love or those who love us: "39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil.
When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. 40
If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. 41
Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. 42 Give to
the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. 43
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that
you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and
the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those
who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans
do the same? 48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

We are to extend ourselves to all of mankind, especially the most needy. To
do so, we are emulating Jesus who went after the one lost sheep. To love is
to give.

>You should read the Bible some time. Especially the NT.
"“Truly I tell you, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - Jesus

File: 1503936927057.png (288KB, 550x550px) Image search: [Google]

288KB, 550x550px

>all these speshul boy club elitists

Whats with you 'masons', 'templars' etc? Why do you fags fight? Aren't you all just trying to feel special? You know that you are

Masonry and all the other clubs have NOTHING to offer. I repeat, NOTHING. They don't run anything in the world, they don't have any secret special immortality knowledge, its just a bunch of guys wanting to belong to something. WHY spend all those precious 4chin kilobytes with your elitist bullshit?
Why?

>inb4 a bunch of answers with larpers beating around the bush how their club has something to offer instead of an objective, clear answer

>>19510468
>Because you're too stingy to realize you should be loving people ad using things
Only by using things and people can you love people, though.
>As Matthew 5:39-48 shares with us, we are not to be generous with only those we
love or those who love us:
And indeed he is right. Not sure of the relevance, though. Or how it ameliorates you for speaking as though you're God?
>"“Truly I tell you, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
That's great and all, but i was referring to the part about whom is saved by Christ. Is it everyone? Or are people you disagree with online excluded?

>>19509894
I'll definitely agree that the KJV is an awful translation. I'm more of an NRSV + NASB guy myself.

IIRC RJ, Mike, & Nick are the odd men out.

> Right is right, no matter what other views they have. [ ... ]
FWIW, despite this discussion, I still agree with you on a lot of thing that we've talked about on the board in the past. I hope we can continue to have excellent discussions outside of this topic.

>>19510307
They may have adopted some interesting practices from their time during the Middle East, but they weren't Luciferians.

>>19510308
Another Papist lie.

>>19510368
... IMDB, like the movie website?

>>19510370
To be fair, he's entirely correct on that point. Ausbro and I are on one page regarding that, despite the other discussion that occurred in this thread. Charity the Practice is very different from Charity the Virtue, and we aren't based on the practice of charity. We're Masons, and because of the values we have, we often tend to be innately charitable, but it's a whole different discussion. See the previous discussion of Caritas / Agape for more info.

>>19510397
If the dude you're replying to is still the Templar LARPer, there's no hope in talking to him, bro. He's too far gone.

>>19510477
We fight because we have different opinions. Some, like the bloodline LARPers, are actually just crazy. I don't think that we're necessarily trying to feel special - we're just geeks with very interesting hobby.
> Masonry and all the other clubs [...]
> They don't run anything in the world, [...]
The problem lies with your assumptions in what we have to offer. Is there something inherently wrong with wanting to belong to a fraternity with very specific interests? Hint: no.
> WHY spend all those precious 4chin kilobytes with your elitist bullshit?
Mostly, boredom.

>>19510664
>I hope we can continue to have excellent discussions outside of this topic.
Oh, me too bro. I've had many disagreements with brethren in the past, but it doesn't stop me caring about them.
Hell, when i saw the hurricane Harvey stuff, i was actually pleased that you were safe enough to be able to engage in an internet shitfight.
> We're Masons, and because of the values we have, we often tend to be innately charitable
Which is usually fine as a general concept. It's just saddening to see people giving their last dollar to some other charity, because they think it's what's meant to be done. Rather than saving up, and making a proper investment in helping others.

>>19510698
Harvey is pretty scary! I am high and dry due to being so far away (400 miles or so), but I am very worried about my friends down south. My county and hometown south of Houston have basically been washed away.
> Which is usually fine as a general concept. It's just saddening to see people giving their last dollar to some other charity, because they think it's what's meant to be done. Rather than saving up, and making a proper investment in helping others.
Yes! Lodges doing this also drives me absolutely up the wall. Some lodges can barely stay open because they refuses to raise their dues, and also refuse to stop bleeding money for charitable activities. One or both has to change, but nobody listens.

>>19501943
Christian (esoteric or not) is not the same as catholic church/Vatican follower.
I'm something like an esoteric xamanic kardencist induist umbandist (african religion that deal with entities, cure, earth elementals, etc...) ayahuaska drinker psichedelic futuristic psychonaut mkultra cia foia reader/researcher christian, who live all this operating on a frequency of harmony as much as I can.
And I know there's people on our planet that also believes, and live this sistem, operating on negativity. On purpose.
Lot of good information is hidden behind Baphomet image... our elites use it, and point at it saiyng "look, it's the devil worshipers", at the same time.
"They" try to scare us with these acts, but everybody knows whats good, and whats not. You can do good thing with 666, or bad things, for exemple. There's no way a number can be a "bad" thing. Or an animal. Or a planet.
You decide what the object/symbol will be used for... you operate, and decide, the frequency you are going to access.

>>19510664
>Some, like the bloodline LARPers, are actually just crazy.
You know nothing of the Quinotaur, you fool.

Non nobis.