I've studied the Western Esoteric tradition for a number

The Kybalion?

>>19361875
What about it?

>>19361893

What's your take on it?

>>19361895
Well its pretty much exactly what it bills itself as. Its a great introduction to Hermeticism but its a mile wide and an inch deep. Pretty much the same as the Enchiridion is to Stoicism. Its not that anything is egregiously incorrect but I feel like its more an introduction to important concepts (as above so bellow) without really explaining why those concepts are important. Its important to remember that all false things have a little truth in them, and all true things a little bit of falseness.The Kybalion lacks some of the context to put that true and falseness into proper perspective but its a great pop/introduction book. If you're looking to get some of that context give The Corpus Hermeticum a read.

>>19361925

The Kybalion, has nothing to do with Hermeticism. It's a product of the New Thought movement.

Since things are slow I figured I could just post things I find interesting. I've been thinking lately that truth is a little like a flash light. We humans are thoughtful beings and were always trying to get to "truth" we want to grab it, crack it open, and eat its truthy goodness so that we can have and posses the truth. We think that this will make the world make sense, it'll make us good people, and it will be overall a good thing. That however is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature and origin of truth.

The truth isn't a fruit that we can grab and hold and use to our advantage. Its a light that radiates from a higher source and provides clarity to us. You can call the higher source god, you can call it scientific empiricism, you can call it your gut. The important thing to remember is that truth is something that is only useful when its being USED. Just as a flash light is useful when pointing into the darkness truth is only useful when pointed at the false. When truth is turned in on itself, or even worse when one trys to look directly at the source of truth shit gets weird and upsetting for people. Not unlike if you were to look directly at the sun.

>>19361941
who do you think the Three Initiates are?

>>19361962

Whoever Atkinson imagined them to be.

>>19361972
Well I mean yeah but the point is even if it was produced after traditional hermeticism, its very clearly a work in the hermetic tradition as is most western occult and mystic practice from about the early classical period until about the 1700s.

If you want to read only old school pure real deal hermetic works you better brush up on your Latin and Aramaic

>>19361992
>its very clearly a work in the hermetic tradition

No, it's very clearly not. It's very clearly a work in the New Thought tradition.

>If you want to read only old school pure real deal hermetic works you better brush up on your Latin and Aramaic

No need. I've been at this for decades. My Latin is good enough.

>>19361867
>Studied the Western Esoteric Tradition for years
>still can't spell "Kabbalistic".

>>19361992
>its very clearly a work in the hermetic tradition
Then you can quickly and succinctly give me a point by point breakdown of how it relates to the actual Hermetic texts such as Corpus Hermeticum, Chaldean Oracles, The Asclepius, and Anthologium, Stobaeus, or the Eighth/Ninth Discourses of the NH manuscripts?

>>19362005
The idea of an immaterial and material plane that are connected but separate reflections of each other. The idea that the world is not as it appears and that through study one can catch glimpses of the other side and through those glimpses we can get truth. the theme of duality is common place in all the works you've listed as well as the idea that by being able to move between dualities or at least accept them one can gain wisdom. The concept of repetition, patterns, and cyclical natures are also shared themes.

>>19362035
Nice citations.

>http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/anotherhermeticum.pdf

>ctrl+f "reflection"
>0 hits

>ctrl+f "plane"
>0 hits

>ctrl+f "dual"
>0 hits

>ctrl+f "repetition", "pattern"
>0 hits

"Cyclic" appears four times, in the context of the motion of the heavens. The closest it gets to the sense you appear to be using is in the notion of like erosion and evidence of aeons through weathering and deposition.

>>19362001
Well why don't you tell me why you think its so very clearly has absolutely nothing to do with the hermetic tradition? You seem to know a lot and Id like to know more.

>>19362088

Don't have to. Ape is doing a fine job.

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Thoughts on these guys?

I would like to know any references you have found to the Bread of Long Living or the Elixir of Life.

Sometimes known as the Food or the Water of Life.

You probably remember it being spoken of in relation to Adapa, Inanna and Enki among other entities.

>>19362085

You're clearly an idiot so I'm not going to waste too much time on you but just doing a search for words and calling it a day should be obviously the dumbest possible way to interpret any kind of abstract text.

As far as an immaterial plane and a material plane

"The motion, therefore, of the cosmos (and of every other hylic animal) will not be caused by things exterior to the cosmos, but by things interior [outward] to the exterior − such [things] as soul, or spirit, or some such other thing incorporeal."

"Thou seest, then, how heavy laden is the soul, for it alone doth lift two bodies. That things, moreover, moved are moved in something as well as moved by something is clear. "

Here we clearly have the material world of bodies and we have the immaterial world of soul. The immaterial must be connected to the material in order for the material to posses movement. Natural forces can cause movement in nonliving things through immaterial energies such as temperature or electrical charge. Living things get that energy from the immaterial world through soul/mind.

If you'd like to actually have a discussion I'm happy to but I don't have time to argue with someone who doesn't want to hear.

>>19361962
>>19361941
>the Three Initiates
>Three

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I have only just started reading books form the /x/ charts and related stuff at the library on all of this. But I guess my question is, were does the strongest self magic lie? with Gnosticism or Kabbalahic, or should I just go straight Jewish magic?

>>19362118

I don't actually know very much about them, I've never been very interested in the ritual/ properly magical portion of the beliefs. I see those magical rituals as a stab at something true and correct but an incorrect methodology. A lot like how alchemy is a correct in spirit but incorrect in method version of chemistry.

>>19361867
Do you know of a good documentary be it amateur or semi/pro that talks about gnostiscim and serve as an introduction to the subject ?

Also can you do magick ?

>>19362138
>Here we clearly have the material world of bodies and we have the immaterial world of soul.
I'm not seeing anything about planes here.
Sounds like a discourse on Nous to me.

Besides I'm not finding that quote in any Hermetic source text.

But whatever, I'm "clearly and idiot" so enjoy your thread.

>>19362130
As you'll see in my other post I take a pretty non-magical interpretation of most things. I think the Bread of Life may be the seeking of wisdom/enlightenment in of itself as the practice of seeking it out is the meditation needed to feed ones soul. Its very, very easy to let your soul die by being bogged down with work, school, family, and entertainment. Its very easy to get stuck into the routine of surviving and lose sight of the higher, more cultured life that only we humans have access to. Its important to remember that Inanna, Enki, and Adapa are not gods of civilized society and culture.

>>19362172
Its literally in the source you linked dude. Try actually reading some of those books. its on pg 11 btw.

>>19362155

This is an ok Introduction into Gnosticism. Its a Lecture by a respected scholar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDyl1qrpj_Q

But I think its ok to dive right into the Nag Hammadi text.

The best text out of the Collection I think are the Secret book of John, on the Origin of the World and the Hypostasis of the Archons.

You can easily find audio of them on youtube to listen to.

>>19362155
>Also can you do magick ?
this. I genuinely want to know if all my research and changing of thought process will be fruitful.

>>19362155
In the historical sense yes, The Lost Gospels by the BBC is really good. As far as finding modern day Gnostic information its one of those beliefs systems with no authority and is hostile towards sharing information with the uninitiated so its very difficult but Stamfords school of philosophy does some great research.

>>19362193
It will be fruitful because you'll understand you shouldn't be trying to seek out power. I don't believe in magic so I've never tried it but it could be one of the many strange and beautiful illusions of this world.

>>19362148
I'm not sure what you mean by "Self magic" but as far as development of self any of the traditions would be a good way to go. The act of practice, self denial, and making your mind and spirit stern and happy can be found in all of the traditions.

Mastery of self is the highest form of enlightenment and the true goal of any good religion.

>>19362208
fair enough you are correct. It's not seeking power as much as I just want to improve my self, my mental health and recover from a life of abuse and try to find some happiness, I feel magic could help in those senses and in a way studying about the Gnostic has already brought me some happiness.

>>19362191
Book of Giants and Watchers is good too if youre looking for christian inspired Gnosticism

>>19362229
Thats good! I understand that a lot and I really get where you were coming from as my own childhood was not great and I started to study for similar reasons.

The funny thing about magic is that by the time you've reached the point of harmony between mind, body, and spirit where they say you should be able to do magic you'll find you won't want or need it anymore.

Keep studying, keep being thoughtful, keep striving and you will grow strong, peaceful and bright.

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Can anyone post a reading list please?

Have this book of rosicrucian symbols in payment:
https://www.rosicrucian.org/rosicrucian-books-behold-the-sign-ancient-symbolism

It's a link because /x/ is an uncivilized board where you cannot post pdfs

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>>19362270
read the Gnostic gospels and read all of her other works, very great entery level reading for Gnosticism.

>>19362270
I've always just kind of read primary sources as I've come across them but I've found Magic and Mysticism: An Introduction to Western Esoteric Traditions and Theosophia both by Arthur Versluis to be great reference books. The Golden Bough, The White Goddess, and The Hero with a Thousand Faces are also great as roadmaps for the Western Tradition

>>19362292
>The White Goddess
is this different than the red goddess book? have you read the red goddess? It doesn't seem like it's that great or i'm be just being silly.

>>19362182
lol I meant the opposite of what I typed, I meant to say " Its important to remember that Inanna, Enki, and Adapa are not gods of nature but gods of civilized society and culture."

>>19362319
I haven't read the red goddess but just by looking it up I can tell its very, very different. The White goddess is about the various mythical interpretations/supernatural representations of femininity in the west through things like moon goddesses, furies, and muses.

So what's with all the hate against the Kybalion here? Sure, it's not directly connected to the older Hermetic texts, and sure, it's not exactly very detailed, but does it have no value on it's own merits?
Does it have no redeeming qualities?

>>19362190
Pardon, I was quite checking the wrong passage but since we're gonna low ball it here and well poison I'll just call you a disingenuous hack given that only one of us can admit when we're wrong.

>>19362368
is your name supposed to be the ape of naples? because I love that album

>>19362368
See thats where we're really disagreeing. These are inherently abstract text and theres many different ways to interpret them. You very well could be right and that entire section could have been more about the Nous but couldn't you also see my interpretation of ancient people understanding that theres something different between the kind of energy that moves water down hill and the kind of energy that moves you and I? You can call that a soul o a psyche, life force. consciousness, free will whatever. There is some real and true thing that gives living things the ability to affect the world around it.

Perhaps it is just Nous but isn't realizing that distinction in of itself commendable for people who had just figured out levers and pulleys were a thing?

Regardless you have to admit you're being a little bit silly if you want to argue the Kybalion isn't at least directly inspired by harder to interpret but more authentic works in Hermeticism.

I personally think it goes over a lot of the big points well and accurately enough that it serves as a perfectly acceptable "babies first" style book. Of course it glosses over a lot and has a few inaccuracies. People who become interested by that more simple book will learn much more as the contiune to study and read better, harder works.
>>19362362

No idea desu. To be fair though the whole new thought movement was a dumb as hell reaction to everything we've known/guessed about illness and nature and was like "hmmm maybe cancer is caused by thinking about cancer!" like the dumbest version of The Game in the world

>>19362418
His name is quite literal.
He's an ape that serves Thoth.

>>19362368
>quite
Quote.

>>19362433
>Nous but couldn't you also see my interpretation of ancient people understanding that theres something different between the kind of energy that moves water down hill and the kind of energy that moves you and I?

Oh, no, I can see it, I was asking more for a substantiation thereof, and frankly I think this metaphor I'm quoting now is rather different from the original formulation, but w/e.

>Perhaps it is just Nous but isn't realizing that distinction in of itself commendable for people who had just figured out levers and pulleys were a thing?
I mean not really, as by the time of the CH they'd been in use for a goodly few hundred years if not more, and these apprehensions are babby tier compared to what's in the Indic literature.

>Kybalion isn't at least directly inspired
I see no reason to think Atkinson had any serious or solid grounding in the concepts of the text tradition, frankly.

>People who become interested by that more simple book will learn much more as the contiune to study and read better, harder works
In my experience they stop there and think they've found the Key rather than starting there to continue explorations in the source materials.

>and frankly I think this metaphor I'm quoting now is rather different from the original formulation, but w/e

I just removed some spaces line spacing to make it not take up a ton of space

>In my experience they stop there and think they've found the Key rather than starting there to continue explorations in the source materials.

People who read a simple book and stop there would never have read the more complicated books in the first place. There are however a few who will keep reading and studying and will have their lives enriched by it. I think thats worth it.

Even so, getting people to think about new ways of thinking even if its a very shallow simple way is better than not thinking at all. Most of your issues with the book seem to be with its author and not with its content.

>>19362508
>with it's author and not with it's content
Oh the ironing.

>>19362527
Why not suggest an accesable better book instead of shitting on it then?

>>19362537
I'm not shitting on the book...

>>19362537
http://gnosis.org/library/hermet.htm

>>19362544
See and I can read that but Im talking about something that a normal person who doesn't use 4chan can read. Only the kybalion is that simple

>>19361867
>kabbalahic
yea credibility went right out the window.

>>19362437
I thought it was a parody of "ape of God".

>>19362571
Well, Thoth IS a god.

>>19362572
Yes but Satan is the ape of God and I thought he was riffing on that.

>>19362527
>>19362537
>>19362508
For what it's worth I did cite my content problems with Atkinson's text, but was called, a...what was it again?
>>19362172
>>19362138
>clearly an idiot
For raising said objections.

>>19362564
For it being so "simple" for normal people and the gold standard for beginners, why did I not hear a Hermeticist reference it until I was 24, something like a decade after I started reading Agrippa, Regardie, the Grimoires, and Mead's translations?

>>19361867
What's your take on Theosophy?

>>19362615
It's worth nothing.

>>19361867
If you are still here OP what are your thoughts on Gurdjieff? His teachings are much different than many others out there but the themes he presents seem to be a less veiled form of earlier works.

I don't know about you guys, but I've read the kyballion and thought it was a pretty good cursory introduction to Hermeticism. Yeah it's kinda new age, yeah it doesn't really delve into the deeper themes, and yeah it uses terms other than more traditional material but it never purposes itself as a be all and end all.

What I've gotten out of it is a desire to know more, and hopefully enough of an understanding of general philosophy to use as a jumping off point.

>>19361867
Occult & Magick General has a link in the OP to The Library of Solomon, enough occult texts, both eastern and western, to occupy you for the next five years. It's also the only thread on /x/ that isn't a larp-fest.

>>19361867
Study the bible.