Let's have a thread on Enochian Magic, this is the most

>>19254126
Anyone?

>>19254126
wtf is this?

>>19255380
Go back to talking about ghosts inside your pants and spoopy scary skeletons.

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>>19254126
Dee was a cool guy. Eh communed with angels and didn't afraid of anything

>>19254126
Tell me about it, what is the Enoch?
Im willing to learn

hold up let me just watch supernatural ill be back

>>19256748
Lmao me 2, ive whatched the whole series, theres nothing on enochian language though

>>19256486
>didn't afraid of anything
Not even afraid of being a cuck

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>>19256486
Did not. Angels do not real

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>>19254126
Good luck getting far with this thread OP. I'm pretty sure almost all of the books on the subject state that you need to either go through months or years of pretraining first before you get into enochian magic, or to just not bother with it entirely.

>>19256991
Look at it from a different perspective.
Was John Dee really a man of God, worthy to communicate in the actual angelic language?
Highly unlikely.
But as a man of the queen he might did feel the need for cryptonite. So they made something up, something new. Something no-one was able to decipher, but could be used and taught to secure valuable information.

>>19257053
>Implying you have to be a "Man of God" in the Hypocritical Christist sense to do Enochian.
Oh that's right, it's summer already!

>>19257603
Nope, but it should be a legit question.
Why in earth John Dee?
In biblical time he would a sorcerer, which the bible literally disapproves.
He also had already created his own hieroglyphics. Everything points in the 'Enochian was his own creation ' direction.

>>19257629
>>19257629
According to the story, he saw them in the shewstone...supposedly Kelly was the operator, and Dee was the medium for all their Enochian Workings. Mostly Because Kelly couldn't scry for shit and never seems to have developed this ability. Ape could tell ya a lot more about the history of Enochian than me.

However, I don't see what your point as to "WHY HIM" even is, really. There is nothing in the Enochian system that indicates you would have to fit a certain definition of "Man of God" in order to work it.

You have the misconception that Enochian magic is only meant for holy work, that's not necessarily true, there are demons in the tablets, there's a Lamen that was given by a fake angel... the church of satan itself uses the angelic calls...

>>19257777
>7777
Yeah but basically LaVey took like, 16-19 of them and swapped out random words with edgy shit like 'Satan' and 'Belial' and sheit.

>>19257053
>Highly unlikely.

Pffft.

>>19257706
>Mostly Because Kelly couldn't scry

Wat?

>>19257785
>Yeah but basically LaVey took like, 16-19

No idea what you're on about.

>>19257829
>Mostly Because Kelly couldn't scry

>"Wat?"
Isn't John Dee the one who gazed at the shewstone and wrote down what he saw, while kelly was Operating the rites? Or am I getting them mixed up? Anyway, one of them had a knack for scrying and one didn't. Is English not your first language or something?

>"No idea what you're on about."
>"the church of satan itself uses the angelic calls..."
>(aka the 48 Enochian Keys)
>"the church of satan itself uses the angelic calls..."
>at the end of the Satanic bible
>LaVey inserts about 16-19 of these
>swapping out random words with edgy shit like 'Satan' and 'Belial' and sheit.

>>19257849
>Or am I getting them mixed up?

Yep.

>"the church of satan itself uses the angelic calls..."

So what? This has nothing to do with Enochian as such, or the demons of the Watchtowers.

>>19257880
Ah, I can never keep the two straight. Anyway, if you actually read my comment it should have been evidentthat I had the two mixed up, and instead of playing dumb you could have just straight-up said "Hey, you have the two mixed up," since you *obviously* already knew that.

>So what?
So, I was responding to the person who said
> the church of satan itself uses the angelic calls...
>>19257777
by saying:
>Yeah but basically LaVey took like, 16-19 of them and swapped out random words with edgy shit like 'Satan' and 'Belial' and sheit.>>19257785


What exactly do you not understand about this? Do you need me to open Paint and draw you a diagram?

>>19257893
>What exactly do you not understand about this?

Why exactly do you assume I fail yo understand any of this? especially compared to one who doesn't know Dee from Kelly.

>>19257903
Nigga, go troll somewhere else. I know this is a good place to stroke your ego and make yourself feel superior to others, but instead of playing dumb and talking in circles, you should *probably* go fuck yourself, instead.

>>19257922

And projection betrays you again. How lame!

>>19257926
> "the church of satan itself uses the angelic calls..."
>Yeah but basically LaVey took like, 16-19 of them and swapped out random words with edgy shit like 'Satan' and 'Belial' and sheit.
>"Hurr Durr No idea what you're on about."
>(explains)
>"So what? This has nothing to do with Enochian as such, or the demons of the Watchtowers."
>(explains *again*)
>"Why exactly do you assume I fail yo understand any of this"
>but instead of playing dumb and talking in circles, you should *probably* go fuck yourself, instead.
>"STOP PROJECTING"

>>19257948

So, nothing at all to contribute?

I have made 4 posts relevant to the discussion, albeit one had two names mixed up. And you?

>>19257967

I think a positive contribution was meant. Sowing confusion is hardly a contribution in any meaningful sense. All we've learned from you, so far, is that a little knowledge is indeed a comical thing.

>>19258148
Well, it must be nice to never make mistakes. Unfortunately I wouldn't know.
>And you?

>>19258204

No doubt..

What do you need to know about Enochian?

>>19258212
I know it's fun mate, but we both know that no individual thread on /x/ will ever begin to cover basic knowledge (except maybe that time I uploaded the manuscripts).

>>19258212
A. How the G.'.D.'. came up with their reconstructions and why it is said to be so off from what the original is presumed to have been like, and
B. How come almost every modern "Magick" book teaches the GD version of the Watchtower Ritual as a general opening for evocation of all kinds?

>>19258219

Yeah, but if there's some semi-informed interest, we could cover a fair bit of ground.

What are you up to, that would evoke swarm attacks like in /omg/, recently?

>>19258227
>How the G.'.D.'. came up with their reconstructions
Essentially informed speculation.
The correlations of individual cells may not even be WRONG, they're just unnecessary to the system as Dee and Kelley practiced it.

>why it is said to be so off from what the original is presumed to have been like
No evidence of said elaboration in the source manuscripts. It's just like Dr. Rudd's Lemegetonic speculation but more complex and less outright "wrong".

>B. How come almost every modern "Magick" book teaches the GD version of the Watchtower Ritual as a general opening for evocation of all kinds?
Because it's well known and we're missing key pages of reconstruction (because fucking Britbongs can't fuckin' think unless they're stuffed full of meatpie).

>>19258234
I dunno.

Tesseract, Cultus Sabbati, calling out other poorly behaved namefags, posting truths about Gunther and his associates.

>>19258227
>A. How the G.'.D.'. came up with their reconstructions

That is a pretty good question. They started with the bare-bones from -- likely Mackenzie -- filling in some of the gaps with Moina's scrying. They never worked with nor possessed the whole system, so mistakes were certainly made.

>B. How come almost every modern "Magick" book teaches the GD version of the Watchtower Ritual as a general opening for evocation of all kinds?

Because almost every group and system is rooted in the GD. The Opening of the Watchtowers is cobbled together from GD initiatory rituals.

>>19258238
>Because it's well known and we're missing key pages of reconstruction

What's your thinking here?

>>19258240

Nothing really new, though.

>>19258227
because they are literally shills

>>19258256
>What's your thinking here?
If my memory doesn't fail me, some pages of the manuscript were used as liner to bake meatpies?

>>19258238
>>19258256
But I mean, Why specifically watchtower? Why Not give Watchtower in a book about Enochian, Bornless and GRH in a book about Lemegeton, Grp in a book about elementals, etc. instead of just saying "Hey, here's a ritual for opening, use it to evoke Angels, Olympic Spirits, Lemegeton Entities, Elementals, and all kind of shit!"

>>19258260
Yeah what was the name of the dude? I think he just had the papers lying about and didn't realize til it was too late?

>>19258273
Because people are very, very, dumb.

>>19258286
OK. Unfortunately, that's kind of what I thought, but was hoping there was still some hidden answer that would restore my faith in modern "occultism."

>>19257010
Doesn't this apply to all forms of magick?

>>19258310
Not really. Not even Enochian DESU. It's an advanced form, but generally the idea is whatever rite you are working on is also helping you work toward something bigger, so that by the time you get to something like Goetic Evocation, you have already spent a significant amount of time working with the various banishing and invoking rites that need to be used, so it isn't so hard to piece together. That's why I always get a laugh out of the super-obstinate who insist on doing evocation without ever having even done the LBRP, let alone having done it properly! But I don't just laugh at them, I try to explain they need to start small...BUT if they insist and are obstinate, *that's* when I laugh.

>>19258310
you could probably pick up chaos magic in an afternoon, though it wouldn't in the beginning do much
a lot of the time it's the physical materials/tools and learning symbols, heuristics and systems that takes a while, not to mention preparing for rituals and the right planetary phases and what not
some schools of thought don't have all this obfuscation and others do

>>19258260

Infamous incident, but what was lost? What we know is that Dee obsessively cross-referenced his diaries and we appear to have everything he mentions. Personally, I see the system as tolerably complete.

>>19258273

Because the WTs are fundamental to nearly all modern ceremonial work.

>>19258382
So you use the Watchtower rite to open for Goetic Workings? Does not compute. Does not compute.

>>19258382
Your comments snapping me into the Agrippan reality w/r/t the Tribes were helpful, but I can't help but think there could have been a spin or innovation or variation we don't have a direct callback to.

Of course that position is every bit as speculative as "the pages were fluff, w/e". I'm just not super comfortable with a known gap in something of such vital importance to Man.

>>19258410

I would, sure. All of my dealings with Goets have been through Enochian in one way or another.

>>19258420

I have just learned to live with it. I also have something akin to faith.

>>19258427
What do you mean? My main thought on this is, whether Dr. Rudd's conflation has proven effective or not, it seems to me that a book claiming to teach evocation would want to teach The rites that specifically correspond to the various types of workings, instead of kinda saying "Eh, bypass all that shit and use this one for everything."

>>19258441
>My main thought on this is, whether Dr. Rudd's conflation has proven effective or not,

I've seen no compelling evidence, no. But then from where came our own attributions of the keys, for example. Even if wrong, they've certainly appeared to 'work'.

>>19258464
Wat?
>"I've seen no compelling evidence" (of Dr. Rudd's conflation proving effective
>So you use the Watchtower rite to open for Goetic Workings?
>"Sure"
Please explain? Also, what do you mean by
>All of my dealings with Goets have been through Enochian

>>19258475
>Anonymous 07/07/17(Fri)12:44:28 No.1925
Rudd's system can actually be disentangled; just because he makes a fuckmess of the Ensigns doesn't mean the basic elemental work wasn't, by chance or by intellect or by instruction, legit.

Rudd appears to sit between the Agrippan and the GD systems of triangulation.

I, personally, would not reference a serious student to Rudd but would rather unpack what of value was contributed so one doesn't get lost in a bajillion repetitions of Lemegeton (which itself may be valuable...fuck, Rudd's system MIGHT be a damn fine suboperation for Abramelin...ijs there's a lot going on here and everyone's precise need is gonna wind up being different)

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>>19258420

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>>19258528

>>19258506
Ape, do you have any recommended Crowley reading for Dionysis? Or any other author? An anon in another thread is interested to know.

>>19258546
Eh, that's a complex subject to the point where unless they were considering full time Thelema, and/or attempting to reconstruct the ancient mystery initiations, I'd probably just say "no".

>>19258553
Gotcha. It's hard to say exactly WHAT they're after.

>>19258521

>>19258475

Not sure what's confusing you, here. Enochian is the framework through which I approach magic and the magical world. I've never evoked Gaap, but I've had him appear just outside the 19 Aethyr. I've never directly summoned the Pie Man, yet I've worked with him from within the aethyrial framework. Theoretically, all of the 72 are in the Enochian multiverse, somewhere.

>>19258506

Something like this, too. Rudd is ridiculous in his way. I have zero faith in his paste-up of the ensigns. We can't rule out, however, some of Rudd's ideas informing the GD's Enochian.

>>19258546
>>19258553

Eleusis didn't suit them, apparently.

>>19258570
What's confusing me is you seem to be implying that you haven't seen evidence that Dr. Rudd's Enochian/Goetia conflations produce results, but also appear to be saying you utilize them? And my other question you basically answered (I guess?) was about you stating you have performed goetic evocation using the Enochian system, but never using the Lemegeton system?

>>19258580
>also appear to be saying you utilize them?

No, I'm not.

>you stating you have performed goetic evocation using the Enochian system, but never using the Lemegeton system?

What I'm saying is that I've had them show up in Enochian contexts. I've had no particular reason to summon them specifically. Enochian is trouble enough.

Rudd appears silly.
There are Goets in the Enochian world.

These statements are both reasonably true.

>>19254126
Why the fuck would anyone draw this complicated shit when you can make a chaos sigil with 10 lines or less?

>>19258631
Why would anyone pay for higher education when you can get a job at a fast food restaurant for 12 dollars an hour or less?

>>19258631

Command and control, for starters.

>>19258570
Oh? Am I addressing 2 people? Up above somebody said they would use the Watchtower Rite for Goetic Evocation (a la Rudd). I guess I'm just confused who I'm talking to.

>>19258646
>Up above somebody said they would use the Watchtower Rite for Goetic Evocation

Yes.

>(a la Rudd).

No, I made no such claim.

>>19258639
Or you could start your own business and skip the debt and indoctrination.

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>>19258631
>He honestly believes his sigil can even dare to compare, to the sigil of the angels that govern nature itself

>>19258659
Well, when I was asking about the conflation of Dr. Rudd, I was talking about his conflation of Enochian and Goetic Work. Why would "Opening and closing a Goetic Working with the Watchtower Ritual" not be considered "making the conflation of Dr. Rudd"?

>>19258664
You could start your own business, and you would make more money, but you would be at the same educational level as when you were working fast food. Kind of like "Chaotes" who don't ground themselves in a tradition before proclaiming themselves "Chaotes." There are many similarities in this analogy, more than I even realized when I posted it.

>>19258674
I don't believe on that crap.
>>19258684
A person can educate them self without going into debt and having to waste time paying for Checking Your Privilege 101.

>>19258631
Let me explain further, just so no one dares to ask such a stupid question again:

Enochian magic is a very deep and complex magical system of its own, it is arguably the most powerful magical system ever created, it deals with the very angels of the throne of God, it deals with the very powers that govern nature itself and it's by definition the most dangerous system known to the Western world; it's so dangerous some occultists refuse to practice it and some of which have practiced it, became insane.

Granted, there are risks for those who seek selfish goals (such as wealth, or power above others), Enochian Magic also provides a gateway for self-transformation and the understanding of one's true will.

It is in summary, the ultimate magical system.

>>19258693
Sure they can, but they won't get a job that requires a Master's or PhD, that way, if indeed they aspire to such things.
>waste time paying for Checking Your Privilege 101.
Man, you are *really* butthurt about your personal conception of what every university on the entire planet is like, but you should probably know, just because you had a shitty experience at your local Liberal Arts college doesn't mean that every university on the entire planet is just like that.

>>19258705
>when you got an undergrad at a top 50 anth school and didn't hear the word "privilege" once.

>>19258684
>Why would "Opening and closing a Goetic Working with the Watchtower Ritual" not be considered "making the conflation of Dr. Rudd"?

If I want a firm anchor, I set up WTs. I do it to establish control over a space. These would be useful working with Goets.

I've seen astral papyrus swamps used to similar effect in Goetic working.

>>19258698

Ain't that purty?

>>19258843
Still doesn't answer my question but at this point I guess my question RE: HOW THAT IS *NOT* MAKING THE CONFLATIONS OF DOCTOR RUDD doesn't matter.

>>19258873

No, it doesn't matter. Rudd was increasing the value of the manuscript copies he flogged. I would be doing it for practical reasons. It's not possible for me to escape the Enochian paradigm, at this point.

>>19254126

I tried it and it was pure bullshit. People warned me about it but angels are weak compared to demons!!!