If God created reality, and reality sometimes results in suffering,

>>19216294
>wahh wahh life isn't 100% pure joy and happiness therefore Satan is the good guy

Kys dude.

>>19216299
I'm not one of those assholes.

I'm just trying to start a discussion.

>>19216300
There is suffering because of sin.

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>>19216294
If there is a god then he isn't going to involve himself in every little struggle we got. In the grand scheme even nuclear war is a blip. If there is one he probably couldn't be fucked to do anything about it.

Think of it like this. The president is the most powerful man in the free world yes? So why isn't he intervening on every murder in the nation?

Right because hes got way bigger fish to fry. I'm Wiccan so I'm not informed really but an omnipotent being usually has to concern themselves with omnipotent problems, logic would state.

>>19216310
A satanist would respond with:

"why would god give me the ability to sin if he knew it would result in suffering? What an asshole!"

>>19216294

Satan is evil, are you retarded? So is Jehova, gnostics had it right.

You think you exist therefore suffer.

>>19216294
>If God created reality, and reality sometimes results in suffering, does that make God evil?
no, you are not here to suffer

>>19216312
>I'm Wiccan
What does this mean ?

>>19216294

The thing is that humans have free will to do as they want. lets take abrahamic religions as an example, since you didnt specify certain religious God. God gives us temptations and vices what we should overcome and grow as humans, both mentally and spiritually. ofc as time went on, religion has been modified to serve certain purpose and agenda for the ones who control the church.

Even if God created everything that is, God gave humans free will to do as they want. In my opinion this is overlooked, and when "bad" things happen, we ask why God let it happen. Also if there are natural disasters, famine, diseases etc. God or satan is blamed. Or priests say that God is punishing us for the evil deeds humanity has done.

In my opinion, suffering is innate for us. without afflictions and hardship, we really wouldnt grow and learn in life.

what do you think?

>>19216294
Pain is a higher form of pleasure.

The first, and worse mistake you guys are making here is: you're personifying God.

God is not a who. God is a WHAT.

>>19216294
>If God created reality, and reality sometimes results in suffering, does that make God evil?

Evil is a value judgement placed on events/objects by humans. In other words, God is evil if you declare Him to be evil. But that declaration is no different than declaring that you don't like God, or that you think God is a poo-poo head.

Think of the question as applied to any other larger-than-humans object/event.

>The sun creates heat and heat sometimes results in suffering, does that make the sun evil?
>Football creates collisions and sometimes collisions result in suffering, does that make football evil?
>Wheat creates gluten and sometimes gluten results in suffering, does that make wheat evil?

>>19216389
This. The whole "bad things happen so X religion is wrong!" thing is bullshit. There are many reasons to doubt a faith without that childish nonsense.

>>19216294

Also good and evil are man made concepts to categorize behaviour. in nature for example, when lion kills an antelope that is in childbirth. and then they eat both the mother and fawn, is it evil? or when male and female polarbear with her cub, come in contact and the male polarbear kills the cub, so that later he might have a chance to mate with the female. is it evil? or just survival. also humans are natural killers. we've been killing eachother, animals and vegetations since the beginning of our time. Now we are just a shadow of our ancestors. weak, fat, lazy, unintelligent parasites.

God made us to be able to witness horrors so we do not take heaven for granted & be asswipes.

>>19216389
In the old testament there is no free will: you are either a gentile who will got the grave, or you are a new who goes the grave but is with Abraham and your ancestors. Putting aside that Jehovah knowss better than hand and commands them and puhnishes them as a mercy to their ignorance, for ignorant sin is the cause of pain, we must absolutely confront that the pain job suffers as an example ijs the worst a human can have... and yet still he is good, pious, and faithful. He is yet still punished. Without Jesus, there is no redemption of such a wicked and dictatorial god, who can take and give back to you with no guarantee of mercy.

Christ was upheaval, god realizing by incarnating his own aspects of mercy and compassion and plucking his own eye of wisdom out and turning it on himself that... the old covenant was unfair. Mankind can't learn without fair and compassionate treatment the error of his ways. Man saw god as a fearful and watchful dictator, and god above all else wants to be loved. So he allowed us free will finally, a choice between heaven or hell to free us of guilt if we so wish. We pay with fire the cost--- and all thijngs have a price even beyond the literal world. Christ pays the price by immolation of god and resurrection of that god and his subjects through ritual. The revitalization is the redemption of god and man together.

>>19216294
>created
never happened, yo.

There is no 'creation'.

>>19216430

Basically it boils down to wether or not god has knowledge of the sufferings he creates.

For example the abrahamic is undubtedly evil as he intentionally creates sufferings against non consenting people, even though he dosent have to.

He is also an entity with atleast the consciousness of man, so I have no issue holding him to our morals. He has no problem holding us to his morals.

>>19216369
Means I don't believe in god. Not even an abrahamic religion, its pagan. I don't have a viewpoint of considering the existence of one singular god instead of multiple like I actually do believe in or none so it might not make complete sense to me.

>>19216486
>Basically it boils down to wether or not god has knowledge of the sufferings he creates.
Not really. Valve and Blizzard are aware of griefing and the suffering people have on their servers. They aren't evil for this, they are providing a realm for people to enjoy in, and the fact that some people also suffer is not on the providers.

The problem is the conception that we are FORCED into this place, rather than wanting to be here and being provided for in the first place.

You've asked God for a BB Gun, then got mad and blamed God when you shot yourself in the eye.

>>19216501
I DID NOT ASK TO EXIST HERE

THE SUFFERING ON I FEEL IS INFINITELY MORE INTENSE COMPARED TO GRIEFING ON WOW SERVERS I LITERALLY FEEL LIKE KILLING MYSELF BECAUSE REALITY IS SO FUCKING TERRIBLE

>god creates everything
>d-d-don't eat this thing I made because it'll make you smart
>you will suffer forever because you did this thing that I dangled in front of you because you listened to that other dude that said it would be nice
>non of this matters because this specific thing will happen in the future
it's like playing d&d with your friends retard brother as the game master

>>19216464

in bible it says that god created man in his image and gave him free will. Gen 1:26.

everything what I said still stands.

>>19216529
>and gave him free will
but he didn't. The "fruit of knowledge" gave them free will. God cast them out of paradise for having free will. He wanted a slave race to worship him without thought

>>19216314
Becuase its called free will. We have the ability to make our own decisions. If we didn't, then that would mean God decides who goes to heaven and who to hell the moment they're born, which is flawed thinking.

>>19216430

I agree with your viewpoint. What do you think about God and the universe?

>>19216538
If they didn't have free will before the apple, then why did eve eat it even though God told her not to.

>>19216514
all souls that exist actually wanted to be born and have the will do live.
So no God is not evil.
All suffering is because of Satan and also because of Man. Nobody else is to blame.

>>19216545
because they were slaves and did what they were told to do. The "serpent" manipulated them to do something

easily explained...tell a child or trained dog to do something and they will do it without thinking about what it was

>>19216538

that is debatable. it depends what you believe and what is your religious view. luciferian belief and judaism think that when adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge they became aware. it all comes down what one believes. there are as many interpretation as there are theologial sects.

>>19216549
Even if they were slaves, they would've been slaves to God, the fact that they could be tempted to disobey God means they have free will.

>>19216529
Then that means god looks like a human..

So what if i told you i look like a man but im omnipotent and omnipresent?

>>19216547
NO YOU DUMB FUCK I DID NOT ASK TO BE BORN HERE HOW THE FUCK COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THAT YOU ARROGANT LITTLE BOOTLICKING CUNT

IF YOU APPLY BASIC HUMAN MORALITY TO GOD HE IS OBVIOUSLY EVIL

WHY WOULD GOD CREATE MAN OR SATAN IF HE KNEW THAT SUFFERING WOULD RESULT FROM IT HE'S SUCH AS FUCKING ASSHOLE

>hypothetical question
>atheist shit flinging contest

My church puts it like this:
God creates and knows about all suffering. It was him that broke your collarbone and made you take vicodin that relieved no pain while you suffered for 5 years. He was the one who did it. These baptists see it as a "test" to see if you lose faith. There might also be a belief that Satan causes all the misery on earth, but those are the opinions of grandmas that think that satan has dominion over god.
The only place satan wins over god is your phone's autocorrect, where satan is auto capitalized, suggested and corrected but god is not. Funny.

My opinion:
This is fucked up, sadistic bullshit. There are long standing church beliefs that god is such a cool dude and doesn't afraid of anything that he wouldn't create something and then make it suffer. This is my belief too. But on the other hand if he DOES cause all the suffering, poverty, pain, hunger, illness and chemtrails in the world, then I don't stand with that shit and I'll tell him right to his face that he's a fucked up individual if I end up there.

Smart people don't fear god's retribution and hellbound fear tactics. Smart people question what the fuck he's thinking by constantly wrecking the lives of 99% of the people on earth.

Not all baptists are retarded southerners. This is my standing.

>>19216547
Satan sounds like a scapegoat to an entity said to be all powerful.

Kids are fucking dying everyday of hunger and Illness. But satan, bro.

the real question is....why must man suffer to enjoy "eternity" ? I would imagine eternity of anything would because a personal hell

>>19216514
>I DID NOT ASK TO EXIST HERE
Yes you did, and every moment you try to enjoy this place, you are re-affirming that desire to be here.

>THE SUFFERING ON I FEEL IS INFINITELY MORE INTENSE COMPARED TO GRIEFING ON WOW SERVERS
Well yes, WoW servers are limited simulations made by limited beings. This is an infinite simulation made by an infinite being. It's going to be infinitely better.

>>19216538
Nonsense. We have free will because we are of God, and God has free will. We aren't "given" free will any more than God was. The tree allegory is about what we DO with that free will. Do we choose to live down here, with the knowledge of good and evil as value judgements and dealing with responsibility for our actions, or do we choose to let go of our desire to control and enjoy?

>>19216542
I think we are eternal beings, not God but of God, who have used their free will to try and take the place of God. We are all the original choosers of the Tree of Knowledge. We are all the rebellious Lucifer. I believe God gave us this world so we can try to fulfill this use of our free will. And I believe when we fuck it up, we blame the person who is nice enough to let us try.

>>19216586
>w-we have free will!
>bible literally says this thing will happen no matter what you do
that doesn't seem free to me

>>19216590
We have free will, but it is much more limited than you think.

You have the choice of living under the control of God, or you have the choice of living under the control of the material. You can choose the Tree of Life, or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

That's it. That's the only free will you get. You are a limited being, and your will is limited, but it is there.

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>>19216405
>>19216405
>>19216405
>>19216405
>>19216405
>>19216405
>>19216405

>>19216559

I'm only quoting what it says in bible. But I dont think it literally means that God created man in his physical appearance. more like artist that paints, or musician that creates music. or maybe he did create human as its god physical image.

I dont understand what you are trying to say? what I would think if you said you look like a man and are omnipotent? if you are a woman, I'd say you are either delusional or insane.

>>19216541
>free will

>God put the tree of knowledge beside Adam and Eve knowing exactly they would fall

>>19216501
This is a very bad example
Valve and blizzard create video games
Not life

>>19216560
If you were not created, you would not think those thoughts. Maybe god saw that creating us was worth the inevitable suffering, because we would be a greater good in the universe through the infinity of time, rather than never being created in the first place. God created this place so that we could have a place to live, if he had not done so, we would still be perpetual permutations of chaos never with a hairs chance of life.

>>19216610
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y50I4KI_o9c

>>19216598
What about the people who live under God but continue to suffer?

>>19216616
We're pissed the fuck off, that's all. I've had a shouting match or two about the old man's bullshit and I'm fucking sick of it.

>>19216609
God put the tree there, but Satan caused man to sin.

>>19216616
The suffering they feel under this life is nothing compared to the bliss of heaven they will receive.

>>19216616
What do you mean by "live under God?" But before we go down that, essentially my answer is they are confusing a symptom of suffering with the cause, and they haven't yet rid themselves of the cause.

>>19216644
>break arm
>haven't gotten rid of the cause

??¿?¿?

Suffering should lead to compassion.
And compassion should lead to unity.

We are in hell now, because we as the human race are in dissonance in countless ways. We are all "God's" transcendental meditation, and expression of Him/Her/It. Everything, from, plants to animals to us, is God. We have forgotten our place among the circle of life, that is why we suffer.

We used to be grateful for everything the earth gave to us. Prayer started over food, sometimes even a vow to allow the animal to eat you in his next life. We prayed for the earth to provide for us, as we are to provide for it.

But we don't even decompose naturally. We're pumped full of embalming fluids and put into metal boxes that destroy way too much fucking land. We fear death and intimacy with community, and overall... compassion. Overcoming these obstacles we place and have been placed before us for thousands of years, we would suffer significantly less.

>>19216644
>>19216650
To expand, we are eternal beings, and this body is clearly not eternal. We are not this body, which is material; we are of God. We are immersed in these bodies to allow us the attempt at being the center of the universe. As long as we continue to think we ARE the body, we HAVE a soul, there will be suffering. No matter how much you follow commandments and go to church and say God is /ourguy/, until you let go of the idea that you are part of the simulation you will suffer along with your simulated avatar.

>>19216669
>the simulation

Damnit, what the fuck, I wanted a serious answer.

>>19216607
>'d say you are either delusional or insane.
Exactly. So why do you base your whole understanding of life on a book that says that an omnipotent space man that existed before everything created humans in his image.

>>19216672
I have been serious. This is a simulation. Not in that it isn't real, but in that it is a temporary situation for eternal beings.

>>19216567
Are you an idiot?
He helped nudge us along our path of sin, but most suffering is because of ourselves and we have only ourselves to blame for listening to Satan. Re-read my first comment, you must have the literal capacity of a 2 year old.
Hunger and Illness exist because of OUR sin.

>Christcuck shills ITT

You guys are gay as fuck. Have fun with your jewish defined lifestyle. Christianity is a monotheistic religion which was created in the fucking desert and pushed on western society. It had no basis here a long fucking time ago and came to grow into society and cement itself. If one looks at just history alone, we can see there are other ways of the spirit and revisionism is becoming very popular. The origins of humanity are more divine then your Semitic God... Typical pompous Christians always point the finger and say everyone that doesn't believe them is possessed or some shit l m a o. Pathetic Christcucks neutered spirituality while everyone else surpasses them on this plane.

>>19216675
And to go further, if the majic spaceman created man in his image. Then how come humans are savage evil things capable of rape and murder?

>>19216294
Congratulations. The existence of evil implies a contradiction in the heart of the Godhead. God is a duality, a dark and light principle that each determine the opposite principle's nature. God is a pure negativity whose negation of its basic and primordial reality (chaos, void, formlessness) looks like The Good.

God is immanent, in the struggle of living beings, and transcendent, as the principle of that struggle and center from which it is experienced.

>>19216672
Have you looked into Zen Buddhism?

>>19216684
We suffer because we gained knowledge. Ignorance is bliss. "Satan" pointed us in the direction of knowledge. "God" planted that knowledge and the serpent of life to accomplish something, right? To learn about ourselves.

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>>19216692
re: caption under this

>>19216684
Starting your argument with an insult.

Whoah, watch out for this great debater gentlemen.

Saged.

>>19216559
Jesus is not omnipotent. He is the Son of God in the flesh and was as limited by the flesh as any of us.
When he died for our sins on the cross, he died an eternal death. He didn't even hope to be resurrected by God, he couldn't even know if God would resurrect him. He simply had faith, and died truly to show Satan that God is not self-serving and would do anything for Man because of his deep love.

>>19216641
who put Satan there?

it's really all God's fault

also an omnipotent being can create a perfect world with free will

>>19216714
Check the post you're replying to, and tell us where was jesus mentioned.

I.e. you're not on subject.

>>19216294
All is one, and separation is an illusion for the creator to experience itself through individual free wills. As all is one, serving others and serving the self (evil) are both technically serving "all", since the self is also the creator. Although the path of evil is in this sense a lie, and will have to be switched eventually, since it denies the divinity in others.
This is a badly explained version of the view of evil/polarity from the Law of One aka Ra material, which is pretty interesting especially on this subject imho.

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>>19216713

>>19216669
So Nihilism?

>>19216743
Yes and no. In what sense do you mean?

>>19216294
If he has the ability to prevent suffering and chooses not to, then yes, he is evil. "lol, free will *shrug*" is not an excuse.

>>19216669
>>19216732
This

>>19216675

I don't think you are native english speaker. or you have problem understanding what I'm writing. I never said I base my beliefs on a book. this is a discussion where we change our perspectives and opinions of said subject.

please pay more attention. also you are not taking consideration what I'm saying, only pushing what you have to say. conversation is two way thing, not pushing what you have to say.

Also you said; "So what if i told you i look like a man but im omnipotent and omnipresent?".

I responded; "if you are a woman, I'd say you are either delusional or insane."

I find it funny how you managed to manipulate that in a way that servers your viewpoint. you need to be more neutral to said subject so you can understand others.

Also I still dont understand what you are tying to say with that.

>>19216444
>serial rapist and murderer gets eternity in paradise because he told God he was vewwy sowwy and wants to be saved pwetty pwease
>some dude from a rural village that's never heard of Christianity gets the hellfire because he never got saved
This seems totally fair and just.

>Be christian on /x/
>Act like some larping crusader against sin
>leave /x/
>go to church
>all christian friends are about love and tolerance sucking jew cock and letting guys fuck in the ass, and "turning the other cheek bro!"
>realize your religion is subverted and has nothing to do with you culturally in an increasingly dangerous world that is hostile to traditional beliefs
>lol better stay on /x/ and preach about sin and the "true christian path" that'll show the devil for making Christianity the way it is today!

Stay retarded christ cucks westerners are going back to real spirituality and you continue to use Hebrew terms to justify keeping people trapped in your sick system. Don't get me wrong mainstream religion in general is subverted, but you cucks wont even fight for your beliefs or develop them. Saint Boniface is rolling in his fucking grave because he sees the sad state of your religion today.

>>19216294
If you meet god on the road, kill him.

>>19216747
The "Nothing here is gonna matter when I'm dead" sense.

>>19216294

If there's a god figure i highly doubt he/she/it can perceive what our concept of suffering is, or our concept of anything. I don't think we could comprehend how something like that thinks, or if even thinks at all.

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>>19216753
I disagree with LawofOne in that I believe we are eternally distinct beings, but the understanding of the homogenous nature of said distinct entities is in alignment.

>>19216786
Then no, but that's because I believe in reincarnation. In which case the statement becomes true if you just switch "dead" with "liberated."

I see it more as material morality and spiritual morality are on completely separate axes.

>>19216778
I hope Christ's second coming isn't just a symbol of reaching Christ-consciousness, and he comes back and whips the shit out of you.

I'd continue living in sin just to see it.

>>19216771
This has got to be the biggest fault of baptists and I want to punch them in the fucking face every time I hear it.
It is not my personal obligation to teach other people about god. It is hypocritical as fuck to say you don't give a fuck about other sects of Christianity and then tell me I have to go teach people about it. It is pure fucking evil to say that a man that can't purchase a bible or even find one in his state is going to hell because I didn't go teach that man about god.

Baptists piss me the fuck off when they say I have to sing and dance for god, when they get loud, when they start shouting "AMEN" at everything, when they say everyone that doesn't know who God is is going to hell, when they say there's an "age of consent" where children up to 17 don't go to hell, but a 17 year old that dies and doesn't know god is going to hell, and their general fucking hatred for everything.
Now they're good people and they follow the Bible, but they ignore Leviticus and violate their own commandments by judging EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. I like them but holy shit there has got to be a fucking line somewhere.

>>19216756

Since you didn't even answer when i asked
>what if i told you i look like a man but im omnipotent and omnipresent.
And instead did exactly this:
>I find it funny how you managed to manipulate that in a way that servers your viewpoint.

Well im just going to call you a sexist prick Because of
>I responded; "if you are a woman, I'd say you are either delusional or insane."

Have a nice Day.

>>19216797

I agree with what you said. I think God/higher being(s) can comprehend them, but they are more irrelevant or outdated as concepts for it/them. we couldn't comprehend how a being(s) like that perceive reality and existance.

>>19216826

c'mon dont be so sensitive. if you are a woman and you said to me "I am a man. I am omnipotent and omnipresent" I'd say you are delusional or insane. if you are a man and you said the same thing, I'd say you are delusional or insane. I only dont understand the point you are trying to make with that statement. are you trying to say that God is delusional, if it says that it is omnipotent?

>>19216725
We are living in a perfect world created by an omnipotent being tho. Why would God create anything that isn't heaven?

>>19216925

For all we know if there's really a god we could just be a side-effect of one little and irrelevant action of him. Like when mold grows on your food for not checking it.

We're not developed enough to comprehend if there's something conscious out there and how it works, so don't pretend you know when your only ""proof"" is a book written by people 2000 years more ignorant than us.

>>19216294
There is no crime so ugly, so sinful that God hasn't thought of, created it, and tried it just to test it out first.

God is like alpha tester #001.

Your call if you think that makes God more evil than non-evil.

>>19216294
God is Existence.
Not a single entity.

>>19216925
Because we wanted somewhere that wasn't Heaven. Satan wasn't kicked out, he wanted to leave and God made this place for him/us to go.

>>19216947
>we could just be a side-effect of one little and irrelevant action of him. Like when mold grows on your food for not checking it.
These are symptoms of limitation though. I didn't check because my memory and attention are limited. Does this apply to an unlimited being? I've never accepted the whole "we're too small for God to notice." In my view, God is unlimited, which means there should be no limit on how large or small of a thing He notices. There's a difference between "really really really big, like uncountably big, so big that big doesn't describe it" and "unlimited."

>>19216811
The funny thing about the second coming is even if jesus really came down and told u he was jesus you'd be like fuck off asshole your a sham and not the real deal. Even the most devoted christian would call him a fake.
It says a lot about the sheer arrogance and egocentrism of Christians

>>19216987
This already happened. I could show you, but you'd call him a fake.

>>19216987

also they say that before the second coming, anti-christ will come first and announce that he is christ. If I'm correct, there will be certain events that will happen before christ walks in earth again and that is the proof that christ has reborn. No, I'm not christian or religious as you would perceive it. I think you are reflecting your own feelings and opinions of christian. just try to be neutral.

Why does god allow torture?

>>19217015
Called who a fake ?
Jesus ?
I don't believe in him so yeah I'd call him a fake

>>19217020
Okay

>>19217031
>tests one of his followers to murder his son
>j-just a prank, bro
I will never understand the mentality of a person in todays society that wants to follow a religion that was created by rock thrower's that still throw rocks at tanks today

>>19216798
Interesting.

>>19216312

but the bible claims God to be omnipotent to comparing god to a president is very weak. if someone is all powerful than everything can be controlled by their power. meaning whatever they don't control is because they don't care, but God is also supposed to be all loving. hence a contradiction. conclusion Bible is not word of God.

I posted this
>>19216405

And i am laughing at your willful stupidity.

>>19217054

you dont seem to be very intelligent person. there are more religious people in this world than non-religious. do you think you are better than them? are their beliefs less significant and important somehow? your attitude is arrogant and you lack unbiased opinion. that reflects your ability not to understand or analyze said subject.

you say that you dont understand the mentality of a person, already shows that you are immature.

>>19217099
>there are more religious people in this world than non-religious. do you think you are better than them?

If There are more easily manipulated morons than smart, self reliant people; does this make being an easly manipulated better or preferable to being smart?

Not to mention you started your "argument" with an insult.


Saged.

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>>19217084
I posted
>>19216599

It's useless, they just won't listen.
OP posted an alchemical image and named it "Gnostic.png". Pic very related.

>>19217122

observation is not an insult. you think that all religious people are trivial, naive, unintelligent and less important than you. I'm pretty sure you've never spoken with religious persons. they are self-reliant people in every aspect. just because they believe in God, dosen't make them imbecils that act like zombies as you are trying to imply. I'm sorry to say, but you are not superior to anyone, least a religious person. All the religious people I've come in contact are open, charitable, easy going and nonjudgemental. I bet you have never done anything good for anyone. :p

>>19217143
Haha yeah, i wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic.

I know its useless, but is it much to azk to just consider the subject from outside the box of 2000 year old religious brain conditioning?

Not a single reply dude. Not a single one.

>>19217155
>religious persons. they are self-reliant people in every aspect.
False. If they rely on a city-state and its book for moral and thought guidance, by definition, they are not self reliant.

>Just because they believe in God, dosen't make them imbecils that act like zombies.
Correct. Believing in the existence of a creator god doesn not make you an imbecile. However, believing in the definition a city-state known for its immense corruption gives god makes you an imbecile.


I really want to see your reply for this one.

>>19216294
>sometimes results in suffering
>sometimes

>>19217231

are you referring city state as in the vatican, the papacy? also you know, there are lot of different theological branches, not only catholicism. Do you think that our current society dosen't suffer from corruption? Of course catholic church is not about faith anymore. its about making money and is a total facade. Majority of them provide for themselves and their family. they are not reliant on papacy as you make it seem. also I believe they read their religious scripts more as guidance, not as an literal code how to live. you seem to think that we are living in 15th century. people are not as stupid as you think they are. not even religious ones.

>>19217231

and ofc there are religious fanatics who take their religious books as word of God and act accordingly. if you would talk about religious fanaticism, I would agree with you, but you are talking about every religious person as a whole.

>>19217275
>there are lot of different theological branches,
All are different versions of the same idea.
You all are discussing who has the better hat while im here looking at the roof covering us all.

>>19217298

I never said that I'm religious as you would percieve it.

And so what if they are different versions from the original one? we are not living in middle-ages you know. people are not so fanatical about religion like they were. You seem to think that you are better and superior to them. That is not how intelligent people behave.

The only God is yourself because you create reality as you percieve it. If you convince yourself 100% that evil doesn't exist in this world and refuse to hear anything about it eventually it won't exist anymore. Denial is how you change reality.

>>19217333

if you are gnostic, and call yourself alchemist, you have lot to learn. dont spout your ignorance.

>>19217333
Nice digits.

>>19216947
My proof is my personal experience talking to and meeting my creator face to face, that the sole reason I now have absolute faith. I've gone from hating God
to understanding why I've suffered to finally trancending my ego based choices.

Just because you cannot fathom a being greater than a human doesn't mean others cannot.

>>19216980
All of existence is heaven, with only one direction, up. Hell is ignorance. Hell is mental. Hell doesn't really exist. It's kind of like a game, we're constantly trying to get to the next level.

>>19217333
One four each reapeating digit.

3.How do you apply that to everyone on earth?

3.in that case, know and realize this is God posting on the chang, and i want you to know i created everything that is and made it so everyone of you is here so i can have something to do, because otherwise there is literally nothing to do in nonexistence. I don't give a single fuck about any one of you or me, it sll for the lulz. And the only thing you should be doing is colonizing space. Like, en masse. Space is awesome you'll want To see it.

3.Czech dose trips

>>19216294
The reason there's suffering is because people don't follow God's laws, the objective laws of creation. Selfishness, Greed, and hatred have all made this world into hell. We could be in paradise if we had a little humility and respect for the law, but some people would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.

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>>19216294
This material realm is not reality, reality is spiritual not material. True happiness can only be found in the spiritual realm, and suffering can likewise be found in this material world. The issue is we, as souls, are spiritual beings in a material world where we do not belong. We have attached our true self to temporary material things like a nationality, a job, this body, and so on and suffering occurs as a result. Devoting yourself to Krishna, the Supreme Personality of the Godhead, is the only way to escape suffering and go back home to the spiritual realm.

>>19217587
>This material realm is not reality, reality is spiritual not material. True happiness can only be found in the spiritual realm, and suffering can likewise be found in this material world. The issue is we, as souls, are spiritual beings in a material world where we do not belong. We have attached our true self to temporary material things like a nationality, a job, this body, and so on and suffering occurs as a result.

Then education about this true self is the way to end suffering.

Or is it devotion to another external personification of a parental guiding figure the answer?

>Devoting yourself to Krishna, the Supreme Personality of the Godhead, is the only way to escape suffering and go back home to the spiritual realm.

Why you still trading hats mate?

>>19216294
> how would you ever know that something is "good" if you never experienced anything "evil" before ever?

Think about this OP.

>>19217099
>that salty reply
sorry I question your belief passed down from rapists and molester's

if he didnt give us chance to fuck ourselves then there wouldnt be free will, even if he knew there was a 100% we would fuck up, we always had free will, we just got tempted and i guess this thousands of years of sufering is so we learn to say no to temptation.

>>19217644
Spreading knowledge of this is highly important, yes, but knowledge is worthless if not practiced. One needs to cultivate Krishna Consciousness, which is unconditional love for God and constant remembrance of the personality of God. This can be done by the process of chanting the Mahamantra as it cleanses one's consciousness. Only devotion to Krishna can achieve the highest state of consciousness, union with the Para Brahman or Krishna Consciousness as Krishna is the highest universal principle and the original cause. Krishna is not merely a personification of a parental figure, but is the personality of God himself. God is not some abstract concept or some formless being, God is a person just like you or I.

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>>19216294
Le angry grief stricken teenager logic...

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>>19216294
>babby's first religious philosophy
the very simplified answer is divine morality isn't mortal morality and also maybe there's a purpose to suffering

e v e r y t h i n g i s i n s i d e y o u r h e a d

>>19217794
The battle, the conflict, the oposition, it's all inside

>>19217687

Did I ever state my beliefs or how I see existance and human nature?

You don't seem to be that intelligent, since your inability to converse a subject from unbiased view is lacking. You present yourself superior to other people, and that is not what intelligent people do. I need to repeat myself, but still you are unable to comprehend. I feel bad for you. I really do.

>>19217707
>God is not some abstract concept or some formless being, God is a person just like you or I.

Then I officially extend him an invitation to our company since humanity needs to form up and give him twenty.

>>19216294
God did not create reality since he's part of it,he created all of existence besides himself and the Darkness the Darkness being the origin of evil

God needs to tell us what is this thing he made, what are we , and what are we supposed to do. Because otherwise shit will ensue.

Obviously, because we are just thrown here with no idea and everybody makes their own version.

Implying>

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>>19216294
I just discovered this, but I find this theory quite enlightening on that question. Perhaps God isn't omnipotent and did not create evil.

>Mani's teaching dealt with the origin of evil, by addressing a theoretical part of the problem of evil by denying the omnipotence of God and postulating two opposite powers. Manichaean theology taught a dualistic view of good and evil. A key belief in Manichaeism is that the powerful, though not omnipotent good power (God), was opposed by the semi-eternal evil power (Satan). Humanity, the world and the soul are seen as the byproduct of the battle between God's proxy, Primal Man, and Satan.

Man is nothing but the transcendental aloneness of God relativized.

God is a center, the one and absolute reality, as every man's consciousness is his one and absolute reality. Evil is the abuse of this center - or rather, evil is the abuse of the freedom this center essentially is.

God is a groundlessness, and in that groundlessness, that lack of ultimate support, comes in evil.

How to prove gnosticism with 2 key elements.

1. People abandon bible belief in the western world
2. Well being increases out the ass.

Discuss.

>>19217519
I don't understand if you think you are arguing with me or not. You didn't say anything that contradicts me, nor did you really agree with or address my points.

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>>19217644
>Then education about this true self is the way to end suffering.
>Or is it devotion

> Bg 5.4 — Only the ignorant speak of devotional service [karma-yoga] as being different from the analytical study of the material world [Sāṅkhya]. Those who are actually learned say that he who applies himself well to one of these paths achieves the results of both.
>Bg 5.5 — One who knows that the position reached by means of analytical study can also be attained by devotional service, and who therefore sees analytical study and devotional service to be on the same level, sees things as they are.

>>19216294
God is everything dummy. He is the good the bad and the ugly.

>>19217821
>Did I ever state my beliefs or how I see existance and human nature?
neither did I...but you started tipping your fedora insulting me a s person instead of arguing my thoughts...THAT is why you are a tit, so kindly fuck off

If you're asking for the official Christian reason its because we, humans, are all designated 'co-creators'
we have as much authority on this earth as god does, just not as much power. So everything is awful because we fucked it up. You can tie it back into 'sin' if you want, but thats just being deliberately vague. Shitsux because people suck
God created a self-sustaining and correcting world. Dumped a bunch of people with the capacity to change it into it, and we fucked it up. We were never the 'masters' of this world, just the stewards and custodians.

>>19219375
I believe that the reason we were put here is to know why we were put here in the first place. The why in everything is the self correcting solution. To know why things happen is to understand the thing itself. I know this sounds all metaphorical and silly but it all has depth, everything does. Just as the bible states the snake teases Adam and Eve to eat the fruit to "become" what we know as God. I believe we were put here to become our own God in a sense, but it's because the term God is used so and vague and loosely we lose sight of it's meaning.

>>19217078
this. it's very simple logic but people will perform the most intense mental gymnastics to work around it

>>19216677
This.

>>19216299
There is no Satan. A little angel once told me:
>We're all friends with your dad, Charlie Brown

>>19216708
What's with the Cosmic womb imagery?

>>19217078
You have a rather narrow definition of 'all-loving' if you think a creator god has to swoop down out the sky to bail you out of the shit you got yourself into.

Imagine we lived in a world where the hand of god was an obvious and real factor of life. Every time you stumble down a flight of stairs, a great big hand rushes out of the sky and catches you. Every time you are about to drink too much, a hand pulls the bottle away from you. Every time you snuggle close to your girlfriend as your hand drifts down, a great big hand comes down and separates the two of you. Every time you consider ripping someone off, a hand comes down and stops you or identifies you when you lie.

People would organize against the 'tyrant god' within a year.

ITT: Sons of the devil argue about how much they are testing their faith.

>>19216972
No, a 'God' is a being that you have a modicum of control over, that's why you evoke them and use their powers. As opposed to the Divine which you don't control, they take an interest in you and could make you powerful/give you knowledge no other person has.

>>19217031
Because freewill is too important.

>>19219463
You are easily manipulated. Yes, lies would be worth keeping secret, right.

>>19216294
God is all that is living. Devil is all that is decaying.

>>19216294
I love posts like this. Time to nerd the fuck out.

Interesting question about whether or not God is evil. If you ask the Gnostics (notice the G -- more about that later), they will tell you the story of how Sophia summoned Yaldaboath (Hebrew for "come, child"), or the demiurge, from the abyss. He, being blind and insane, decided to create the physical universe, including the concept of time, to exert his power. Also, due to the fact that he's blind, he does not recognize the existence of any other gods. Evil happens in the world because an imperfect being created an imperfect world.

tl;dr: Gnostics say that god isn't necessarily evil -- just blind, insane, and imperfect.

>>19216294
As said before, suffering was mankind's addition to the earth.

>>19216310
Fuck off, if a baby can get cancer then what the fuck kind of sin did it do?

>>19216314

Removing the ability to sin removes free will, the absence of which makes the existence of separate sentient beings more or less pointless.

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>>19216294
Listen:
If you step on ants. Unknowingly you're killing things. Does that make you evil? If what you ask exists, my only statement would be its like an equation. For great creation there is great destruction. BOTH of which is.....

Well, if he gave us free will, at least that's what the scriptures say. That means we are at fault for the suffering. He tried to fix that a few times, noahs ark etc., but didn't quite work so he just let's us trying to figure it out ourselves. At least that's how I like to think about it.

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>>19216294
AGod is just apathetic, suffering is a trait of being, God is above being. Suffering is a scapegoat humans use to bolster their hubris. Your pain is simply God stepping on it's own toes.

>>19219888
That should mean that god is not all knowing or not all powerfull, otherwise he would have fixed it. free will isn't the cause of all the different forms of child cancer or other horrible diceases and infections. how can somebody that cares about us leave us in such a shithole ? if creation is real he/she/it left us a long long time ago

>>19216314
Because like a responsible parent he actually gives a shit about what's best for You,but respects your free will.
If You were a junkie, would your dad stop loving You? No.
He would still get angry and try to make You stop, however, because he fucking loves You.

>>19219510
Tl;dr: Gnostics believe they can judge God's Will and improve on it.
tl;dr: Gnostics are literal satanists.

>>19219461
My only issue with that is if he was all powerful why would there need to be bad things in the first place? If he's all powerful Satan would never have to be a thing and could be ended instantly. There would never need to be evil or bad from the start.

Evil exists so that goodness can exist. If you have nothing to contrast, then goodness has no definition and is valueless. There is no light without the dark.

>>19220007
>free will isn't the cause of all the different forms of child cancer or other horrible diceases and infections

how do you know that spooky action from a distance, and the deeds of those around those people, aren't affecting them inadvertently? it is possible that sins' effects are somehow unhoned and contagious.

Throughout the Bible god kills more people directly the the devil even slightly gets involved with so ya. God is massive dick. Also if you care to notice god also let's insects exist where their entire life cycle is burrowing into the eyes and flesh of children so it's safe to say that if intelligent design is real god is the most vile and probably the most evil of the whole story up to modern day... Let that one sink in.

>>19220270
>Gnostics believe they can judge God's Will and improve on it.
Not us but through us can he have mercy upon his creation.

>>19219363

I literally told you that what you said dosen't come from intellectual perspective. hehe kiddo, so its ok for you to insult a group of people, and when you get called out for being arrogant, its insulting your poor personality. get off from your high horse kid.

>>19220491
>kiddo
I hope you are just venting or rp'ing because nobody will ever take you seriously when you post like a btard

>>19220270
>You want to fix this imperfect reality?

>Oh no, you is satan!!

This is what you're doing, and you should be ashamed.

>>19220995
But it's true.

>>19221007
Yeah, its true. You should be really ashamed of yourself.

>>19221015
We all should. We're all down here trying to take the place of God.

No. He made an equal universe. As in it equates to zero.
Bad people make people suffer.
Good people make people not suffer.

It's actually very equal, with fluctuations that easily gets changed.

Imagine a world with no evil. Not everyone would be happy with that.

Imagine a world with only evil, but killing some evil people to gaina more Good world, would that make you evil or good? it is about compromises.

Not even yourself is yourself without compromises. You have a set of skills geneticaly inherited. that doesn't make you being able to whatever you want. Therefore you have to fight yourself even if there is nobody else there.

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>>19221107
Why are You still trying to justify such a flawed system after reading the thread?

Oh, right. You didn't read the thread.

>>19216294
God is a perfect and uncorruptible being that created the spiritual world that is flawless in itself.
After God there is a second level of deities that emanate from God itself. One of this deities,the Demiurge,created the material world that you are living in.
Your body is attached to a soul so you can achieve salvation (leaving the material world).
All pain and suffering comes from the imperfections of the material world created by the Demiurge. God in itself is pure and perfect

>>19216430

>>The sun creates heat and heat sometimes results in suffering, does that make the sun evil?

Yes.

>>Football creates collisions and sometimes collisions result in suffering, does that make football evil?

Yes.

>>Wheat creates gluten and sometimes gluten results in suffering, does that make wheat evil?

Yes.

>>19221452
Thus getting back to my original point that Good and Evil are subjective values placed upon events and objects.

As anon here shows, anything and everything can be seen as evil.

>>19216573
Suffering is an illusion created by the material God in which God has nothing to do with it. The material world was created by the Demiurge. All suffering coming from this world have to be blame upon its creator not upon God

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>>19217031

hmmm

>>19220943

I know it hurts. you cant make a complete sentence without sounding like 15 year old. you are just a child.

>>19220270

Using the refusal to put up with abuse as justification of abuse is referred to as psychopathy.

There is no god.

>>19216972
Spinoza suck a dick

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>>19216294
>sometimes
>practically everyone goes to a place of eternal torment

Yeah God is pretty much a jerk. I wont appropriate terms like "evil". Okay we're the evil ones, what does that matter Christians? He's an abuser of consciousness plain and simple. He can't possibly represent your interests and maybe its time to start recognizing how bad it is that you exist.

>>19219510
>Gnostics say that god isn't necessarily evil
The Demiurge is not God. God is perfect and all good. The material world is just the realm of the demiurge and to get out of it you need to find a transcendent knowledge

>>19216310
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez6xH-su2xI

>>19221531
Imperial Cult pls go.

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>>19216389
>free will to be born without skin

whoo lad

>>19216310
there is suffering because of humans who sin, to be specific. Case closed, God can't control our actions (if there is a god in the form of a person, which I highly doubt and more see "god" as "it" "the root")

>>19216430
>Football creates collisions and sometimes collisions result in suffering, does that make football evil?

Yes. Basically everything humanity does is stupid and evil and there probably is hardly a better example than professional sports culture.

>>19216314
calle free will bro, otherwise we would blame him "why diddn't you give us free will, jesus bro?"

>>19221550
WHAT THE FUCK

>>19216321
well said

>>19216294
also if we wouldn't know "Bad", how could be define "good" ?

>>19216778
>implying every Christian missed the point as hard as you did

Also arent orthodox christians and orthdox jews at odds?

>>19221521
>God is a bad man who puts people in time out

Unbelievable. is this how deep your idea of God goes? No, seriously, take a walk outside and tell me what kind of child looks at all that and thinks "Yeah, there's definitely some kind of cartoony taskmaster behind this, totally, this is a belief shared by all Christians"? Read more.

>>19221578
>how could be define "good" ?
This is simply stupid. You don't know things because you contrast them with others. You just need to understand the concept as knowledge is not created but discovered

>>19221521
elaborate! I like the tendency this post goes...so you sayin we are slaves of god, unable to freely leave this reality/dimension, nor are we like him, we are his descendents, yet we are "below" his existence? Did I get that right? I had that thought a couple of times, how did you get to think of this? what's you're "personal proof" ?

Balance.

Adam and Eve would have never known glory.

>>19221597
I get what youre saying (also not that guy) but thats the whole point in my opinion, to discover the knowledge of good versus evil. While the knowledge is and always has been there to be discovered, you cant really discover it without some kind of "lesson" on how to interpret things and build upon that knowledge.

>>19221658
>While the knowledge is and always has been there to be discovered, you cant really discover it without some kind of "lesson"
Knowledge can be achieved through introspection

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>>19220259
thanks

>>19221566
>>19221460
>Thus getting back to my original point that Good and Evil are subjective values placed upon events and objects.

>>19221578
How can we know what cereal is if we don't know the opposite of cereal?

These statements only make sense BECAUSE good and evil are values we place on things. A circle isn't a value judgement. You don't need to know the opposite of a circle to understand a circle. The only time you need to know the opposite to know a thing is when that thing is a relative value placed by humans.

good-evil
hot-cold
light-dark
fat-thin
happy-sad

These are all subjective values on a relative scale.

>>19221691
>These are all subjective values
No they aren't

>>19221700
Yes they are.

>>19221710
No they aren't. If you are corrupt of mind or ignorant it doesn't make your silly definitions right.

>>19221710
The existence of happiness and sadness is objective though, just because their gradients are particular to the subject doesn't mean evil as such, good as such, etc. don't exist. We get it, everything is le subjective, time to move on to a more integral understanding of these things instead of spinning your wheels in relativism 101

No blame on Satan, everything goes back to God.
Kinda like blaming white ppl for everything.

>>19221719
Yes they are. Any one of those requires a second data input to determine, thus making them relative. They are also subjective in that the same event or object can be classified as either value depending on the observer. People can be at the same temperature and declare it to be both hot and cold. Impossible for objective measurements.

>>19221734
>The existence of happiness and sadness is objective though
No, the existence of dopamine levels and other chemicals in the brain is objective. Whether a person FEELS happy or sad because of this is subjective.

>doesn't mean evil as such, good as such, etc. don't exist
I never said they don't exist. They exist in the same way opinions exist. Because they are opinions.

>time to move on to a more integral understanding of these things instead of spinning your wheels in relativism 101
OP's question is whether God can be considered evil. I am trying very hard to get it through your skulls that the answer is "Yes, but so what?" And the reason for that is because good and evil are NOT objective traits, but are OPINIONS.

We can't move on from this question until you understand this point. REALLY understand it.

Actually, that's a good comparison. Asking if God is Evil is like asking if God is Fat.

>>19216314
How could you have free will if you weren't given a choice? If you only have one choice it would be a lie and God does not lie.

>>19221783
>dopamine and chemicals

I understood this back in high school.

Happiness, defined as whatever configuration of chemicals in the brain necessary for the subject to experience what he calls "happiness", exists. Subjects who report happiness and sadness objectively exist. Happiness and sadness are ways of describing particular ways systems interact with themselves and one another, ways that are objectively real but then phenomenologically articulated.

>>19219820
Sin travels by generations. Maybe when you die your "suffering" seems like a joke. Do you suffer because you die in a video game or do you have a more mature perspective of it?

>>19221783
>Any one of those requires a second data input to determine
No

>>19221807
Read very closely.

I agree that the subjective value is placed upon a real, objective configuration of material reality.
I agree those subjective values exist in that people experience them.
I am asserting that those subjective values should not be seen as inherent traits in the configurations they describe.

If happy and sad are throwing you off, let's use temperature. Temperature is an objective configuration of matter. There is objectively such a state of energy labelled 15 deg Celsius. An observer might experience that state and declare "This is hot." Another might be in the same state and declare "This is cold." They are both right, because what is hot or cold is their subjective experience, NOT the state of energy. The state of energy called 15 deg C is not hot, and it is not cold.

>>19221830
Yes. See above.

>>19221848
If there was no evil there would still be good

>>19221848
What I am saying is, who cares if relative to the void this and this amount of dopamine in this and this synapse isn't "actually" happiness?

Subjects have to be instantiated in the universe for the universe to have subjectively-determined meanings for them. Uh, obviously? For such a thing as a subject to qualify its experience in terms of these concepts we provisionally defined as good, evil, beauty, ugliness, etc. is as objective and intrinsic to the deep structure of nature as the growth patterns in a petri dish. You're saying nothing insightful or profound.

>>19221861
No, because then things would just "be" the one quality that they are. Duality is the motor of reality.

>>19221848
>Yes. See above.
I did not expand on this well enough. Relative values require a second data input because they hold no meaning otherwise. Let's continue with temperature/hot/cold.

Temperature we can define objectively through the amount of energy within a system. But hot or cold cannot. Again, 15 C is not hot, and not cold. But once you add anything else to compare it to - an average, a baseline, a previous reading, etc. - you can declare a value of hot or cold. Like in terms of room temperature (approx 23C) that temperature would be cold. In terms of the polar regions, 15C would be nice and toasty. If we use a Kelvin system and set a baseline of -273C, then it's obviously VERY hot. If the only temperature reading we've ever had prior to 15C was 20, then it would be cold again.

It's the same with happiness. If all you know is X level of dopamine, then you get X+3, you would call that happy. But if you then found out everyone else walks around at X+10, you'd realize you were "supposed" to be sad.

>>19221861
Doesn't invalidate what I'm saying. You're just setting the "standard" to no evil and comparing from there. Good is still a subjective value placed on things and events.

>>19221868
>What I am saying is, who cares if relative to the void this and this amount of dopamine in this and this synapse isn't "actually" happiness?

Then you don't understand what I said. Go read again.

>>19221874
You are saying that evil=not good which is not true

>>19221874
You are an ass with no insight. Primate. Your ego is the motor of my gag reflex.

>>19221901
No, that's exactly what you're saying, happiness doesn't "really" exist because dopa mine isn't the actual sensation of happiness. So what?

>>19221904
Good is the negation of evil. They are negations of each other.

>>19221924
>that's exactly what you're saying, happiness doesn't "really" exist
I clearly said the exact opposite. Now I know you're a fool.
>I agree those subjective values exist in that people experience them.

>>19221935
That's why I said "really"...

Learn to read

Your argument is "subjective qualities don't exist outside subjectivity", you don't say?

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Christianity redpill.

satanists are the marxists to christianity's capitalism. reactionary fedora tier faggots. highly irritating, irrational and completely wrong about human nature. the world is neutral and survival requires strategies, some of which mean other things don't get to survive so you do.

you the individual dies, you the species has to survive. individuals are often sacrificed towards the continuation of the species. if we had to kill 1 billion babies tomorrow or have every single person die, we kill the babies.

it's a numbers game you idiot, why do you think we have so many people on the planet? 80 years ago we have 2 billion now we have 7.5, in another 80 years we will probably have like 20 billion. because more planets, more people, expansion, redundancy, more freedom, more technology. that's how you survive.

>>19221924
>Good is the negation of evil. They are negations of each other
No

>>19221944
>That's why I said "really"...
That's your own projection.

>Your argument is "subjective qualities don't exist outside subjectivity", you don't say?
It's not an argument. It's tautological fact. I clearly stated my argument. But I think you haven't read a word I typed. So this time you go back and quote what I asserted just to show you can read, fool.

>>19221946
Many gems in that pic

but forget organized religions they are nothing but pitfalls

read the Bhagavad-Gita if you have not all ready

Christ is Krishna imo

>>19221946
free choice is another one of these gaps that religion loves to hide behind. people are layers of programming. grow an embryo in a vat and keep the baby in isolation all it's life and it'll be dumb as a stack of bricks.

you have apparent free choice. believing in a god or religion literally does nothing for you once you cross some threshold for IQ and general knowledge. it's super useful to keep poor idiots from killing you for your stuff, which is why clever jews came up with it, then proceeded to use it to take everyone elses stuff and keep it.

>>19216294
>You give birth to a child
>look after and nurture it until it goes on its way in life
>something bad happens to it, raped, murdered, crippled
>guess your an evil parent for bringing it into this world
Your logic OP.

>>19221965
I got your point awhile ago. I told you, it's not that profound.

>>19221962
The negation of the what-is (a thermodynamic universe where life is only a metastable configuration of particles in constant threat of breakdown and disintegration) is the ought-to-be (human striving for meaning, beauty, justice, god, ethics, whatever, the good)

>>19222069
>I got your point awhile ago.
Nope. you can't even follow a simple request. I asked you to quote what I asserted. If you can't even find it, there's no way I'll believe you can understand it. I'll check the thread tomorrow morning to see if you've come to any sense.

>>19216312
no, God is involved with everybody's personal life. this is an old misconception that god is too great to involve himself in our little problems, but thats exactly the point god is so great that he could.
again, although this is contrary to what logic would dictate, god created logic, along with everything else, logic cant apply to god, logically.>>19216314
we have the ability to sin because without it we wouldnt have the ability do not. if theres no sin then theres no good deed; a lit candle in daylight.
>>19216514
but what if you did?
>>19216538
then how did they make the chioce to eat from the tree?
whta? god wanted them to? then he didnt want a slave race. oh, i remember, gods retarded, right. or he wanted a slave race that would listen to anyone, for the purpose of...?
grow up.
>>19216559
learn acient hebrew, tzelem doesnt not mean figure. we have a remnant of gods attributes, eg, free will.
>>19216560
but what if you did? and at night when you sleep and your soul ascends on high you beg god to wake you from your slumber of ignorance?

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>>19221590
Invoking the ineffable isn't a substitute for real consideration, its just a copout. I'm sure your own concept of God is so much more complex

>hurr durr, I dunno but I guess God does lol

gnostics are a running joke in heaven

The Creator are beyond good and evil. Also both (important) illusions and relevant only to humans.

>>19222403
The ineffable is what's beyond all consideration tho that's kinda the point.

You suffer because there is sin. People sin because they desire. People desire because they believe they are real, have free will, and the ability to make their future. This is an illusion, and as long as people maintain this illusion, they will sin and bring suffering onto others. To escape suffering, you must shed your desires.

>>19222038

you don't get it, giving birth to a child can be seen evil too and pretty easily since the child have nothing to say about that if he even wants to be born, it is always purely egoistic choice to reproduce.

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>>19220315
God is all-parts. God is life experiencing itself and teaching itself and harming itself and loving itself and hating itself and saving itself and losing itself and finding itself and losing itself and finding itself and losing itself and finding itself and losing itself and finding itself and losing itself

>>19222473
God damn this is perfect.

>>19222452
Some people aren't meant to escape suffering, anon.

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you need just to read "revelations of elite family insider"

read carefully and you'll understand why "god" isn't god.

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>>19222482
Isn't it supposed to be?

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>>19221615
I am more or less saying that in a post-Philip K. Dick world the mundane and the spiritual have collided such that even if we could prove the "divine" inspiration of one faith or another, we'd still have to wonder what does God want with us? leaving us to fret over his all too familiar motivations. We seem to be entering an age where we'll have the opportunity to be cosmic despots in our own right. And I don't even mean this sterile idea of academics rendering a universe in order to study it with some noble logos behind the whole thing. I'm imagining an absolute worst-case scenario where this kind of thing has been turned into a commodity. Imagine if every asshole walking down the street with a smart phone could trivially render a universe on said device for any reason whatever. And I have to already think this could have already happened in higher realities. Therefore I think the only real hope is that eventually the Monad comes and BTFO everything.

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>>19222449
And what is beyond consideration? Whatever you want to make so for your own convenience?

>>19222516
It's true you really need to think this stuff for yourself and not everyone does, but it's there

>>19222503
Do you think technology will trivialize spiritual concepts?
I actually don't think this will be the case.
People tend to still pull meaning from the internet, why not from whatever the next step is? The only thing that might conflict is human instrumentality and the technological point where we can do away with physicality. I think god shows itself whenever a human hand went into making or creating.

>>19221615
Don't fall into the devil's trick. Read Genesis, we had Paradise before and we went against God's will and knew good and evil. We always had free will.
We were punished and given rules to follow and fucked up hence the flood. Yadda yadda yadda, he sends Jesus to tell us the way to live and dies for our sins, more free will then ever with eternal salvation if we believe.

>>19222549
meant for
>>19222511

>>19216294
It's just the nature of our 3D physical reality. It's dualistic. Time travels, from our perspective, in a line. It starts and ends, like the day. If there were no night, there would be no context for the day. Starving to death is awful, but sustenance has no meaning without hunger. If no one ever got hungry, would family dinner still be important?

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>>19222551
We're all god. We're all satan.
The only evil that ever lived was the evil born of its observation, and the only being capable of this observation is us.

>>19222549
I don't know how to answer that. There are probably certain totally transcendent truths but ultimately technology and the accumulation of knowledge in general is just bridging the gap between the material and supernatural. If you brought a computer back to people in the 1500's there would be no doubt in their mind that it was the product of pure sorcery. That alone should answer your question about the effect technology can have on our spiritual awe.

>>19221783
The objective good is God's will and objective evil is deviation from it or Satan.
What we perceive as good and evil is relative, it's man made it doesn't matter to God. Is that the point your trying to make? Because people get very confused on this. By saying we know what is good and evil is trying to be gods equal or overcome him. Satanists believe this, they want to be Gods themselves (do as thout will).
It took me a while to fully understand and appreciate this. And without this either everything is relative/subjective and nothing is objective.

>>19222615
I don't care about spiritual awe as a concept quite as much.
I care that people might become deadened to spirituality because it cannot be found in the modern world anymore. I worry it might go the way of the Dodo. I worry once it DOES go, that predation on a dumb populace with no spiritual basis is sure to follow.

>>19222615

But they ARE a product of pure sorcery. The only reason why it does not feel that way is because society has labeled all observable phenomena so it is now normal to your brain. Just because we cause a bolt of high-energy plasma electricity and know the cause is differences in charges DOES NOT mean we know why it exists in the first place. We are defining a sorcerous world and making it seem totally normal.

>>19222709

Correction: "Just because we CALL a bolt of high-energy plasma electricity..."

>>19216294
What is life without suffering? The whole experience of life is to suffer and create a better image out of your past self because of those experiences and, in the end, hopefully come out as a better person. If this dogma is removed that who is to say that suffering wont be experienced in full effect if one chooses to completely obliterate either good or evil. Without one, the other will be entirely omnipotent-and that power will eventually spill and mix with suffering even if it is a morally upright power.

God creates evil because it balances it with good, and when the two are coherent with each other it allows for both bliss and suffering to be in equal harmony with one another so that suffering will not intrude too far into the boundaries of our regular lives. Suffering is what makes you human, but too much suffering can create a demon out of you.

>>19222709
That was my point

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clarke

>>19222731
>Suffering is what makes you human, but too much suffering can create a demon out of you.

It's not how MUCH you suffer, but HOW you suffer. The things you suffer through tend to define you. In this way you can choose what you might become later on down the line. You might also keep in mind that every demon has its place.
Also, if people are the cause of all suffering then some people by definition will be the ones inflicting the suffering, and I think it is from there that evil springs. The evil arbitrated against someone is the same thing that might inspire them to become kind to others in turn.

>>19216294
God gave us free will, we cause suffering upon ourselves. Read Adam and Eve, this answers your question. "But anon! Why didn't God just stop adam and Eve if he knew what was gonna happen!" Then what is the point of him giving us free will, to just be taken away? Him giving us free will is just a testiment of how much he loves us

>>19222561
You fail to realize were past those lessons now.
There's an increasing number of us humans that have Evolved past the religious tribalistic system, our brains work differently and We understand things that seem like blasphemy to primitive men. Of course there's still primitives that copy and mimic the words and phrases to their own nefarious ends. But that's another cake..

The point is that we've reached the point were we can question reality itself and find its flaws.
If that God exists, its time for him to intervene because there's people alive right now that have passed certain point in consciousness and evolution.

Hard to explain when not native English speaker.

>>19222883

Your free will is an illusion. Your brain tells itself it made the decision for reasons x, y, and z after you have already made it.

To understand this is the greatest gift. Let your mind be a string for God to play so his music can be heard.

>>19223015
God cannot create anything that is not a part itself therfore your will /is/ God's will. Omnipresence implies that all creatures are in a way cells in the body of God in the same way that you are a being made of millions of smaller beings (microorganisms) but still only one being.

>>19223078
>Omnipresence
Means logic pervades all of reality. Not that logic is a cell, or a hamster.

Nor are you a cell, but a person.

>God cannot
God can do anything.
Wills only some things.

If your conception of God has a cannot, it is false.

If even the painter or the sculptor can create something that is not part of itself, then how can you say that God cannot create something which is not part of itself!

>>19223078
>your will is God's will

But you must be aware of it. If you are not aware of it, you will think your will is yours alone, separate from the world, and you will get it in your own way. To cling to ego is to be unaware of your true being. But it is a paradox. How can you attempt to let go of your ego with your ego? Shed the layers...

>>19222983
>If that God exists, its time for him to intervene
Read the Bible
>There's an increasing number of us humans that have Evolved past the religious tribalistic system

No you haven't, not even close.

>You fail to realize were past those lessons now.

Seriously. The Bible is the snake, and what it's telling you is that this is being planned from the future.

The fruit of the tree of knowledge are called "To be aware."

In English.

>>19222893

>>19223121
Weak bait.

Im sorry i had to waste a (you).

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>>19223160
Cross referencing.

T

>>19222099

Told ya, planned from the future.

>>19223015
>greatest gift
>you're not even supposed to exercise it

What did God mean by this?

>isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ephesians 1:11New International Version (NIV)

11 In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Let's imagine that God is an author for a moment. He has a lot of characters that live interesting lives (to read) and others that are either completely boring or they just die in grotesque/unfair/miserable/comical ways and no one mourns them. By that logic, I think God hates these people.
That makes God evil, yes.

>>19223356
We are but figments of Gods dreams. God is dreaming of Himself dreaming. Dreams within dreams with no possible explanation of who the fucc the original dreamer was. Just imaniged people places and things as all dreams have their content. Is the dreamer also the dream?

>>19223356
Or maybe evil is not the right word, but he's definitely not all-loving as some people claim. He's certainly biased.

>b-but muh diversity! he wants to make a point!
I think if God loved us all, he would find different ways to teach us a lesson than killing us and making us suffer.

>>19223372
Also this rihht here yahweh succs

darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7

>>19222080
Back, did you flounce off or would you like to try again?

>>19222473
To deny God a distinct consciousness & will is to deny part of the all-parts you declare to be God.

>>19222642
>objective good is God's will and objective evil is deviation from it or Satan.
OK, but if this is the case, then it doesn't really help us because we don't have specific access to God's will. A person can point to books, but there's a whole can of worms to open on that front.

Even with this, it doesn't remove a central issue of good and evil being value judgements - even when they come from God. Even more so when it comes from God, because otherwise you imply good and evil are outside of God's control, or worse have power over God. God seeing something as good is exactly the same as God saying "I like this thing." The only thing we could conclude from this statement is that everything is existence is good, every possible action is good. Otherwise we're left with an omnipotent being that doesn't like Its creation but won't do anything about this dislike, and we're back to the questions of Epicurus.

> Is that the point your trying to make?
Read this post. Find the statement I assert. That was and is my point. >>19221848

>By saying we know what is good and evil is trying to be gods equal or overcome him.
Yes and no. I think we are the ONLY ones who can say what is good or evil. It's an opinion - usually a culturally-wide opinion, but still opinion. I can't tell you what's good or evil any more than I can tell you whether a room we're both in is hot or cold. I can tell you what I FEEL, but there's no imprinting my opinion on you simply by fiat. If I'm hot, and you're cold - no amount of objective fact or reasoning can convince you that you're wrong.

At the same time, the conception that your opinion MATTERS, that it is somehow TRUE or universal is where the demonic mentality comes in. This is the symptom of wanting to be the Controller, the Enjoyer, the Center.

>>19222646
>I care that people might become deadened to spirituality because it cannot be found in the modern world anymore.
How are you defining spirituality that it could be removed from the world? Spirituality to me is a cohesive understanding of WHO you are, WHERE you are (i.e. what is this world), and WHY you are. How do you see technology destroying this? It might deform and alter it into something unrecognizable to you or me, but spirituality would still be there. Heck, a self-aware robot might have better or even perfect spirituality.

>>19223078
>God cannot
Syntax error.

>Omnipresence implies that all creatures are in a way cells in the body of God
Omnipresence implies that there is no place outside of God. In this universe, timespace and gravity are omnipresent not because we are tiny bits of their body, but because there is no place within this universe that is outside of timespace, or unaffected by gravity.

Good and evil exist as concepts only because humans are a social species. We have invented rules to make it possible to live together in a society and we have invented god as a threat to enforce these rules. Society would not succeed if we were all murdering and raping and stealing from one another, we have to work together or we perish. The only reason we developed intelligence at all is to facilitate humanity's social structure, which ensures our survival. It's the same as a lion evolving claws or a bull evolving horns.

There is no law but natural law and it cannot be broken or circumvented. Everything else is an invention of mankind.

>>19216312
why u so optimistic

>>19216771
There are worse things.
>Inuit goes to missionary home
>sir, my brother became a Christian because of you
>but he committed suicide and now he is going to Hell
>you told me once people who don't know Christ will not be punished
>so why did you come here to tell us about Him?

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>>19216294
>If God created reality, and reality sometimes results in suffering, does that make God evil?
Nope. God loved us enough to grant us free will. What we do with that free will is our own prerogative. Some people misuse this free will by sinning and spreading strife. As much as it pains God, he can only sit back and observe what's happening on Earth despite his omnipotence. To do otherwise would undermine the love he showed in granting us free will in the first place.

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>>19216294
Explain this:
If god knows knows your future then your future is determined and you cant have free will if every decision you make is already determined.

>>19225003
Because God isn't interfering with your future. He just knows where it's going.

>>19225014
Knowing about something doesn't affect that something. I'm saying that if every decision you make is already determined then only those decisions can be made meaning that you cant have free.

>>19225003
Bump This is what originally caused me to start questioning my religion.

>>19225026
>I'm saying that if every decision you make is already determined then only those decisions can be made meaning that you cant have free.
But that's the thing, they aren't. We experience time and space linearly. We don't know how we'll react to a given situation until we're actually experiencing that situation. But free will allows us to do what we will with a given experience. Your future isn't determined until it is. God knows how you'll react, but if you choose to react differently he'll know that too. Because God doesn't experience time and space the way we do.

>>19225054
But now I'm confused. Doesn't god know everything including every decision you will make. If every decision you make is known with 100% accuracy then you will make those known decisions. For example: If it can be known that you will turn right at an intersection at exactly 8:00 pm on thursday with 100% accuracy then you WILL turn right at that intersection at 8:00pm on thursday. Now apply that example to every decision you ever make.

>>19225073
They're known to God sure, but not to you, at least not until that situation arises. And when you come across that intersection at 8:00PM on a Thursday what's to stop you from deciding to go left, or even just keep going straight? Your decision is what. It all comes back to a linear experience of time and space. God exists outside of this, outside our own perceptions, we do not. So him knowing what decisions you'll make have little impact on you actually making those decisions.

For example, you see an ant crawling across the sidewalk. There's an obstacle in its path it doesn't see yet, but you do. You know the ant will avoid the obstacle to continue on its path. Once the ant finally arrives at the obstacle it does just that and continues on its way. The fact that you knew what the ant was about to do had no impact on the ant actually doing it.

>>19225175
Lets say that god knows with 100% accuracy that you will turn left at the intersection then you WILL turn left. You couldn't have gone in any other direction because it was already known with 100% accuracy that you will go left.
Also, you don't know for sure that the ant will avoid the obstacle you just know that its likely that it will avoid the obstacle.

>>19225192

I know 100% that you're a faggot, now it cannot be other way.

>>19225200
Nope it cannot be any other way if it is known 100%.

>>19225192
I think you're looking too deep into it. The decisions you make are your own. Regardless if God knows you'll make that decision or not.

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Evil is the absences of God, because God is all good. It's like how the absences of heat is cold.

>>19225003
Because you are a limited being, like everything else in your life your free will is limited. You have one choice, and only once choice: who/what do you want controlling your life? Do you want to be under the control of God, or under the control of the material? After that choice, everything else is determined and known.

Just like I give you the option of eating steak or eating chicken. You have free will, but I KNOW you're going to eat steak or chicken because there is no other option.

>>19225237
>Evil is the absences of God
Your conception of God is limited then? How can an omnipresent Being be absent?

>>19225251
But if all you know is that i will choose the steak or the chicken then your knowledge of my decision is limited. Not to mention that i could just not eat at all because i might not like both steak and chicken.

>>19225270
>But if all you know is that i will choose the steak or the chicken then your knowledge of my decision is limited.
Never said it wasn't. But you're focusing too much on the analogy, and trying to make a hypothetical real life.

>Not to mention that i could just not eat at all because i might not like both steak and chicken.
Like this. No you couldn't. You could in real life, but this wasn't real life. This was a hypothetical analogy where I explicitly stated
>there is no other option

To apply your limited knowledge to the actual situation I presented, there is no loss of knowledge. God would know 100% your future no matter which choice you freely go with. Remember the question is NOT how does God know what I will freely choose? The question is how is free will compatible with God knowing my future?

>>19225292
So what do you mean by the steak and chicken analogy? Who or what does "I" represent in the analogy?

>>19225321
>So what do you mean by the steak and chicken analogy?
I meant your free will, your choices, are limited.

>All this brainlets not understanding gnosticism
I hate this meme board

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>>19225334
https://ffrf.org/legacy/about/bybarker/fang.php
Maybe that website can explain it better than me. Otherwise i guess we just disagree about whether or not a 100% determinable future means that choice doesn't exist.

Nice chat tho

>>19216389
So I have a biological predisposition for substance dependency and alcoholism as a personal test?

>>19225386
>https://ffrf.org/legacy/about/bybarker/fang.php
>The Christian God

Stopped right there. I am not Christian, I am not presenting a Christian concept of God. It disappoints me that you would try to disengage by linking a site where someone else has done your thinking for you. Especially when that thinking is in response to different assertions.

>>19225412
Well after reading it more closely it doesnt exactly talk about what i was talking about sorry. I was just assuming that the god that we were talking about knows the future with 100% accuracy and thats about it, but i still think that we just disagree about a 100% determinable future not allowing free will.

>>19225440
>I was just assuming that the god that we were talking about knows the future with 100% accuracy and thats about it

The problem is the phrase "knows the future." Again if I only have a single option, I still have free will and someone could still know 100% what my future entails. Perhaps we can think of Schrodinger's Cat (though I loathe to even mention QM subjects).

With Schrodinger's Cat. There are two options: the cat lives, the cat dies. I can't tell you which will happen before the waveform collapses. But I can answer with 100% certainty we will only find one of two options in that box: dead cat, live cat. I 100% know the future because I know every single possible outcome of the future, regardless of which path is chosen.

>a 100% determinable future
It is only 100% determinable after the initial choice. But when both options are 100% determinable afterward.

First of all I want to say that you assume that all realtiy involves suffering. This is obviously an assumption based on your human bias. Depending on your paradigm the idea that there is no suffering in other realities may be quite surreal but I say that this is the case.

This planetary reality is of our responsibility, the veil of forgetting and the non interference is part of this game we play here.
There are other planets wich do not have these rules in wich the veil between this universe and other realms of existence is not as thick as it is here so they may be aware of the reasosn they are where they are and they are somewhat knowlegdeable about their position in creation depending on their level of development.

The reason we come here, wich is as well the reason there is suffering here, is that here there is no intervention when things go wrong. So you could say here is a place where spiritual beings in development get to play and grow while there are no "parents" there to stop them. In other realities you would be saved from a negative outcome, there may be mistakes there but the reality itself would be so cooperative in nature and other beings would have ways to interfere with what you were doing.

You have to realise that we create the reality on this planet. Every sentence starts with an idea, any building does, any nation is based on ideas of the past and the now and perhaps even the future. Every value or meaning we give things in this reality are of our creation. There is nothing we are not responsible for. If you really think about it you will realise that we create the suffering in this world.

We right now still live in a reality that is vastly unaware of itself. If humanity had realised that we create the reality we experience. in the objective sense as in how we organize life and politics etc. And of of course in the subjective sense, so how you structure your own reality and how you create your experiences by what you believe about it.

>>19225495
Your experience is determinated by the symbols you choose to see and the meaning you gave them. For example you may assume a certain role in life and depending upon the role you believe you are playing you will experience it this way. I would even say that when you for example think of yourself as a "loser" then you will automatically create events that validify your believe. Your concsiousness is always going to create your experiences.


The same goes for society of course. If enough people "hallucinate" that everyone is uncaring and distant to other people then it will be this way for the vast majority. If enough people "hallucinated" differerent things it would be different. If you really think about it you can apply this to anything really. The thing is that the vast majority has not realised this yet. This is because humanity is still used to linear thinking. For example you believe that soemone has ill intentions then you will try to find evidence for this and when you see it you will find yourself validified and stick to this perspective. Not linear thinking would be if you were to realise that you simply experience that wich you believe to see then you could shift your perception so that the entire relationship to you and that person would change.

You could also say that because most people believe that life cannot be based on experiencing joy but rather on work and survival, be it material or spiritual survival it plays out like that. And since people think in linear ways they will believe that reality itself is that way not seeing that they create their experiences.


For the vast majority of our time as humanity humans have lived in situations wich didn't allow them for much other than survival and trying to get at least some joy out of the realilty they lived in because of the lack of technology, the political situation the overall attitude of their times etc. But now we can look at a lot of these things and realise we have been foolish.

>>19225491
So what you're saying is that god doesn't know what your initial decision will be?

>>19225516
If we were to realise that we can live above the leve we are living on right now then we could have a reality without major suffering and perhaps even some day a reality with almost no suffering at all. And I'm sure that it will happen at some point.


Humans have to realise that what really matters is their percieved experience. The state of humanity is not determined by how much we can produce, how faithful we are in a religion or how advanced our technology is. These are all simply ideas that symbolize positivity, at least for some depending on the symbol. So far we lived in a world of ideas. It's ideas that structure reality, such as the idea that life is about work and that we have to do this to survive. Ideas like that economic growth is the way to determien how well a country is doing.
Or people associate ideas like political correctness or non-binary genders with a more compassionate and less limiting structure of society.

The truth is that our progress can only really be determined by how joyful and loving the percieved experience is. It really is about the joy factor and not about any abstract ideas. Although I agree that ideas always play a role in achieving that but so far humans have been looking at the structure of reality as inherent as more important than the results we get by following that structure.


You can follow many ideas that symbolize love, you can think of yourself as a christian and follow their rules. You can be a feminist and try to push your agenda or you can be a fascist and believe that by focusing on certain traditionalistic values you create a more benevolent society. But the truth is that all this doesn't matter. You can follow some many ideas and yet can hurt other people and even feel justified in doing so. True compassion and love doesn't need an agenda for it will always try to find the most benevolent outcome and try to achieve it in a real benevolent way.

>>19225536
The "decision" isn't a one time thing. It is eternal and continual. There isn't a set answer to know.

>>19225545
Lastly I want to talk about God.

God is really just a human symbol, a way for us to understand that wich is beyond our comprehension so far. It's really a light that has been given to us in many ways so we realise that there is more to existence than our simple human existence and even more to existence than all that wich our universe has to offer. It is also a light wich has always tried to show us that there is infinite love and compassion in creation.

God is not really a being. God is reality itself. There can be no nothingness. True nothingness cannot be experiened for if it were there would be still a space of nothingness or the experience of what one percieves to be nothing, wich would still be something. So God is really just this mystery of being itself. It's the reason why things are in the first place and it is all that is as well. So you could say it's the sum of all its parts, but it is more than that really. It is all knowing, it knows of all probable events all probable realities. It even knows of the probable realities and events that people are thinking of know, and it knows of the probable events that will be created by those that live in the probable universes we create due to our thoughts.

It's pure infinity you could say. Infinite infinity.


Besides I also want to add something about God and this planetary reality. First of all if you use some logic, because I believe there is logic even in spiritual things wich shouldn't be too absurd I hope. You will probably understand that whatever is supervising this reality is not evil. If it were a company for example then would you really put manovelent and irresponsible beings in charge of this planet? Would you really make it possible for all sorts of malevolent to interferre with our lifes?

The other thing is that were not going to learn in this setting we are in without commiting mistakes. On other planets the reality may have different attributes but here you can do whatever you want.

>>19225562
Completely lost me on this

>>19225562
Perhaps I can explain it better.

God is aware of all the potentials. So God is aware of all probable actions you can decide to do and he probably is aware of how likely you are to make a decision based upon your concsiousness. God is also aware of where each probable decision can lead you. The thing is that the path can split in infinite directions at any given point. God is simply aware of all these probabilities at once.

That is also really just what reality is. It's all probabilities existing at once, without time.

>>19225611
So the god that you believe in doesn't know for certain which decision you will make but he knows which decision you are most likely to choose along with all of the other decisions and stuff.

>>19222549
If you really believe in the oneness of God then perhaps you will find to agree with my idea in regards to this question.


We are merely using the ressources this universe supplies us when creating technoloy, so surely it must still be one with God.

You could really say that we are simply using the different forms in wich energy manifests itself in this universe and the law of the universe itself to create technology.

I would even suggest that there is perhaps rather remarkable technology in other realms of existence for even in other realms there may be ways to use the laws of the realm and its' "material" to construct "devices" to help achieve a intention.

>>19225597
The "initial choice" isn't a set answer to know. It can change instantaneously, or be set for millennia. It can be superceded and still be an inherent aspect of the self. It isn't an action so much as a potential, an eternal probability.

>>19225611
Sort of. But we don't HAVE probable actions to do. We don't DO anything. We are under control at all times, it's just a matter of who/what controls us.

>>19225632
The God that I believe in isn't seperated from you. Your concsiousness is just as much a part of God as mine is or as reality itself is part of God.


Just read what I wrote about God on the last big post over your own reply.

>>19225656
The framework in wich you act may not be entirely of your creation but you have choice in how you're going to act within the framework of actions possible for you.


You can even choose to overcome your current boundaries and thus expand your own set of choices, even in quite grand ways.

However, I agree, if you don't choose to evolve spiritually you are somewhat impaired in regards to your free will.

Believing your are not in control is really just a comfy way to justify you not taking responsibility.

>>19225663
You could say that God only really "knows" these things because it is all things.

God is not some being that knows all, it knows all because it is all. There is no concsiousness involved as we know it.

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>>19225229
>looking too deep into God and Free Will

Christcucks everybody!

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>>19225237
Sometimes an absence of heat is desirable tho. And defining opposites as the presence of essence or its absence is quite honestly banal. Occultists fully recognize this. Its not a coincidence that women are missing a "y" chromosone.

>>19225672
>you have choice in how you're going to act
I completely disagree. You do not act save for the initial choice. The delusion that these are your thoughts, your desires, your actions, your responsibility is the reason you suffer.

>>19225715
Oh well.

You can either believe you are a part of all that is that is subject to all that is or you can believe that you can only act as all that is if you chose to take the responsibility that comes with it.

If you're one with God then that means that you are God, you can act as God within one human being, but only if you chose to take the responsibility.

The idea that this oneness is distorted that you cannot act is rather disfunctional to me. God does not act as one, it acts as one because of all of its parts act.

>>19225734
You're really never going to manifest "Godhood" within yourself if you don't realise that as a part of God you have to make decisions as God would and not depend on all that is to make decisions for you.

>>19225715
>>19225734
>>19225739
You see, just because you remain a part of all that is doesn't mean that you don't make decisions yourself. It's more like the more you recognize that you are a part of all that is the more able you are to make decisions for yourself.

What about beings that are higher on a higher plane in regards to cause and effect? Are they simply being controlled by higher ones themselves? And are these simply being controlled by even higher ones and so on to infinity where the great All that is does everything?

You see, all that is, aka "God" doesn't do anything, it's its parts doing everything.

Creation would not be creation but rather total stagnation if all parts of creation were to simply say that they are not able to make decisions but the great all that is has to do them.

In a way both sides are true, but your idea is distorted in regards to free will.

>>19225734
>>19225739
>>19225766
Absolutely all of this is wrong, stemming from the very basic concept that you are not God. You never were, never are, never will be. A part is not the whole. You are not the Center. You are not the Enjoyer. You are not the Controller.

>>19225772
Uh okay. But apart from you I actually presented some arguments and tried to explain them as best as I could while you just throw a bunch of claims at me.

Besides, this seems to me to be more of a moralistic thing for you. It seems to me that you like to think you're on the moral highground for believing what you believe.


Besides, as someone who fully realises that he is God I wonder what you are trying to achieve be assuring me that I cannot make decisions.


Also, the last things you said really make me think that you are merely acting this way because of the bias that comes along with the paradigm your believe. Your whole statements about how I create my suffering by not being one with all.


If you believe that being one with all means that you have to be in blissful state of nothingness then you're wrong, but I guess that idea comes along with your paradigm.


Oh and hey, I bet you already did this, you can of course pull the ego card because I dared to speak up against your opinions because how dare I speak my mind and not simply dwell in blissful nothingness.

>>19225801
>apart from you I actually presented some arguments
1/3 of this thread are my posts. And you didn't present arguments, you asserted things expecting them to simply be accepted.

>It seems to me that you like to think you're on the moral highground for believing what you believe.
OK. I deny this, and accuse you of the same.

>as someone who fully realises that he is God
This seems to me like you are delusional, or have devalued the concept of God such that God is limited. If you are God, and you are limitless, then prove this to me 100% within 5 minutes of this post appearing.

>you are merely acting this way because of the bias that comes along with the paradigm your believe
I wonder when you will say something that is not just as pertinent when mirrored back at you.

>Your whole statements about how I create my suffering by not being one with all.
I tentatively agree. Not understanding how your part fits in the whole is part of the delusion, and a cause for suffering.

>If you believe that being one with all means that you have to be in blissful state of nothingness
I do not.

>I guess that idea comes along with your paradigm.
This shows that you have been wrong about me. Will you change accordingly?

>>19225772
Oh I actually got you wrong. I thought you meant that my mistakes stem from the fact that that I believe that I am not God. But you actually believe that you and God are seperated.


Since that is the case I don't really see any reason to argue with you. I already posted a lot of information in regards as to why you are God, at least in some sense.

I'll try to explain it at least a bit though. Sure I'm not all that is, I'm not the one "All that is".
But as a part of all that is I can become harmonized with all that is so that I realise that to some extend I am God and that I can evolve infinitely so that at some point I may be what I think of as "God" now, wich of course would still mean that there was infinite more progress to make.

>>19225841
>But you actually believe that you and God are seperated.
No, this is the delusion.

>I already posted a lot of information in regards as to why you are God
You are not God. You've already passed your deadline. Do you need another five minutes?

>But as a part of all that is I can become harmonized with all that is
A thread in a shirt is not a shirt. A drop of ocean water is not an ocean. A part of All is not All. You are not God. You are not separate from God.

>I realise that to some extend I am God
This is a delusion.

>I can evolve infinitely
Why would you think this? With what do you support this belief that the limited can become unlimited? If you could do this, why have you not already achieved it?

>>19225839
>>19225841
Well, I misintepreted your post as you can see.
I assumed you were representing the position that you and God are one and thus its useless to do anything yourself.

Also, I was fully aware that my statements could be mirrored back to me. But this is the case in a lot of situations. Of course you can look at me in ways to find that I am biased as well, but that doesn't automatically negate my own perception.

Both parts can always reflect each other and each part can always claim that the other is simply doing the same as what he's trying to reflect. This game can go on endlessly, a solution can only really be found if at least one part tries to understand the intention of the other.