Is it advisable to join my local O.T.O lodge? Or can I walk

Basically I'm asking if it's possible to become a legit magician(not an armchair occultist) without having any mentors or joining an organization

>>19158326

Yes, you can become a wizard by your lonesome. Some people find it easier, some find it harder. Study a lot, practice a lot, meditate a lot, eat healthy, and practice yoga or qigong -- Those are the basics of it.

When the student is ready the master will appear.

>>19158326
>Is it advisable to join my local O.T.O lodge?
Depends really.
Is the administration sane, the local body free of drama, and offering sensible classes? Then sure.

If not, use my library (unpublished Crowley rites, diaries, manuscripts, typescripts, etc., over in Yorke Microfilms of the Warburg Collection under the A.'.A.'. > Crowley file.

It depends. What do you value? Do some research on the OTO and it's connection to pedogate. There is a lot of evidence to support some of these lodges participating in unbelievable amounts of practices that most would categorize as pure evil. Following your will is one thing. Systematically and ritually abusing and breaking the psyche of others against their own free will is not cool for me. Ever. To each his own though. Trial by fire is the way for some.

Become VERY solid on your understanding of what you want and what you want your path to be like. If you want to investigate the dark side, go for it. There are lessons to be learned, but there's also a cost.

You could always ask your higher self for guidance to lead you to a path that would be beneficial for your growth and development in a way that's comfortable to you. I've been going it alone for decades and it leaves me confused at times, but happy and excited to see what door will open next.

>>19158895
>Systematically and ritually abusing and breaking the psyche of others against their own free will is not cool for me.
Can you substantiate this claim from the actual corpus of Thelemic rituals, all of which are posted in my library?

And the sexual degrees? I'm straight and I don't want to do anal sex rites with another dude. Do they at least pair you based on your orientation? And do they hand out condoms?

>>19158903
>All of which are posted in my library
Doesn't the OTO have an oath of secrecy that you just violated?

>>19158326
I'm fairly certain you can just show up and ask to look around and see if its for you.
Go to a few gnostic masses and check their library if its open.

>>19158952
Can you violate an oath you haven't taken?

>>19158982
Ape of Thoth took the oath.

>>19158991
Oh, interesting... I wonder if we'll get a response

>>19158903
I can substantiate that there are a number of people that have taken those paths regardless of the teachings. I think of it in the same way that I see people everywhere killing in the name of their religious beliefs. Who cares what the book says if you haven't eyes to see it with.

I don't think Crowley said raping babies and eating them is cool. I feel it is more that some of the practices open unexpected doors that affect people in different ways and they are difficult to shut once opened. I do not doubt that there have been many who have walked this path and it served them well. I'm just not sure most people really know what they are getting into when they begin.

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>>19158999

>>19158943
You'll probably never even make it that far, so don't worry. Even if you were extremely able and talented, they don't want too many people wielding power in the same org. However, it's not like it's having sex for the fun of it. By the time one gets to that level, their mind can usually distinguish and separate the sacred from the profane.

>>19159069
>I can substantiate that there are a number of people that have taken those paths regardless of the teachings
We,, then that doesn't have anything to do with OTO, that has to do with the individuals and their dispositions. However, please do substantiate this.

Out of all of the accessible occult orders out there, the OTO is the only one that is fun to hang out with... that sais, I would never join them. Go on your own, you can still meet up with these people as friends for socialization without joining their orders and being weirdly religious.

>>19159363
What's "weirdly religious" about OTO? It seems that they are much less "weirdly religious" than your average catholic, methodist, Jew, or Moslem.

>>19158952
>>19158991
>>19158999
1) The real secrets are incommunicable.
2) I swore an Oath to the Office of the Great and Wild Beast. Not Breeze. So far nobody's ripped my dick off.

>>19159348
Did Crowley not say this?
"Moreover, the Beast 666 adviseth that all children shall be accustomed from infancy to witness every type of sexual act, as also the process of birth, lest falsehood fog, and mystery stupefy, their minds, whose error else might thwart and misdirect the growth of their subconscious system of soul-symbolism."

https://thelemaquotes.com/2010/07/12/thelema-quotes-12-sex-and-sexuality/

And we have this for the commentary on how to interpret this "law"

"The Beast 666 ordains by His authority that every man, and every woman, and every intermediately-sexed individual, shall be absolutely free to interpret and communicate Self by means of any sexual practices soever, whether direct or indirect, rational or symbolic, physiologically, legally, ethically, or religiously approved or no, provided only that all parties to any act are fully aware of all implications and responsibilities thereof, and heartily agree thereto."

So my point of confusion is how members of the order are advised to involve their children in all acts from birth, but yet the law also says all parties should be fully aware of all implications. Children are certainly not aware of these implications yet they are involved?

>>19159521
>"Moreover, the Beast 666 adviseth that all children shall be accustomed from infancy to witness every type of sexual act, as also the process of birth, lest falsehood fog, and mystery stupefy, their minds, whose error else might thwart and misdirect the growth of their subconscious system of soul-symbolism."

Imparting to your children a working understanding in the physical act of reproduction is a matter of education. Notice there's nothing about allowing participation or coercion; remember, in another Essay Crowley says, verbatim:

>“… acts invasive of another individual’s equal rights are implicitly self-aggressions. … Such acts as rape, and the assault or seduction of infants, may therefore be justly regarded as offences against the Law of Liberty, and repressed in the interests of that Law.”

>"The Beast 666 ordains by His authority that every man, and every woman, and every intermediately-sexed individual, shall be absolutely free to interpret and communicate Self by means of any sexual practices soever, whether direct or indirect, rational or symbolic, physiologically, legally, ethically, or religiously approved or no, provided only that all parties to any act are fully aware of all implications and responsibilities thereof, and heartily agree thereto."

And?
From Duty:
>The essence of crime is that it restricts the freedom of the individual outraged. (Thus, murder restricts his right to live; robbery, his right to enjoy the fruits of his labour; coining, his right to the guarantee of the state that he shall barter in security; etc.) It is then the common duty to prevent crime by segregating the criminal, and by the threat of reprisals; also, to teach the criminal that his acts, being analyzed, are contrary to his own True Will....The rule is quite simple. He who violated any right declares magically that it does not exist; therefore it no longer does so, for him.

>>19159521
>advised to involve their children
>involve
>involve
No. It says nothing about involvement. It says they're not supposed to wind up like pic related, traumatized as soon they see copulation. Sexual repression fucks people up. Just as bad as abuse. Go look at /r9k/.

As a refutation that he mandates any sort of involvement, I reference back to the quote here:
>>19159540
>>“… acts invasive of another individual’s equal rights are implicitly self-aggressions. … Such acts as rape, and the assault or seduction of infants, may therefore be justly regarded as offences against the Law of Liberty, and repressed in the interests of that Law.”

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>>19159560
>forgot pic
What I get for trying to be funny.

>>19159564
>>19159560
>>19159540
>>19159521
In any case what does this have to do at all with any sort of -gate? Pedo or otherwise?

>>19159540
I would argue that for some people "witnessing" these acts is participating. Is this not true for the voyeur? Sexual education does not have to include actually being present while the rituals that include these acts occur, but does everyone interpret the word "witness" the same?

I'm not going to debate you. I'm not looking to join and I can see you're sold. Agree to disagree.

>>19159607
>Sexual education does not have to include actually being present
The advice is that they be FAMILIAR with the SIGHT of acts. This can be an entirely illustrative dry and mechanical education. I think the fact that your goes straight to "Lube up little Billy, hon" is rather telling when really the advice isn't far outside of contemporary sexual education practices in most first world nations.

> I'm not looking to join and I can see you're sold.
I don't want you to join, frankly, I simply want you to substantiate your claims with decent evidence.

I joined the Order almost ten years ago, and am not the OP. I've been hosting /omg/ with the library full of Crowley's unpublished work for years.

>>19159618
I didn't think you were OP. I doubt he would be asking the questions he did if he had the knowledge you have in this subject.

OTO also says children should not be taught and to let them learn on their own, but you say that dry and mechanical education is acceptable.

This is a stalemate. I provide evidence from "sources" that say something you disagree with and you provide evidence to the contrary. This is not valuable to me so I'll pass.

It was apparent to me you wouldn't want me to join. You can see I do not follow your path. I genuinely wish you well.

>>19159618
I'm the OP.
I have one question, about the "incommunicable secrets".

Are these "secrets" factual information or something else? And would you say that you could have acquired that knowledge if you hadn't joined the Order ever?

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>>19159699
>OTO also says children should not be taught and to let them learn on their own
I...what?

>To read a newspaper is to refrain from reading something worth while. The first discipline of education must therefore be to refuse resolutely to feed the mind with canned chatter.

He forced his students to learn formal logic by hand. The entire A.'.A.'. structure is designed to teach. He wrote letter to his son Ataturk lamenting he wouldn't be there to teach him.

>I provide evidence from "sources"
Not really, you're cherry picking things that look suspicious with zero knowledge of the otherwise massive corpus of Crowley materials.

You cannot say the rituals advocate abuse and deconstruction without indication in the rites. You cannot say that providing basic sexual education is teaching you to fuck kids when he wrote multiple essays about how fucking kids runs counter to the Law of Thelema.

>>19159733
What I mean is that the "Secrets" of the OTO aren't in gestures, words, handshakes, or even sexual magick (which isn't taught until high degrees you have slim chance of getting to anyway) - the Secrets are what you discover about your self, and the universe/reality, through the rituals.

I can never ever tell you what, if anything, you'll get out of a particular degree being duly enacted by a dedicated lodge, even if I posted the ritual scripts here and now and picked them apart with you.

OTO isn't a "speculative" group like Freemasonry is now, but are "operative" in the sense that the 'guild' is Thelemic ritual (current Order problems notwithstanding, this is the spirit and intent of the Order, and occasionally a well run local body tries to follow through).

>>19159607
The very way you seem to be interpreting this, and presenting your questions, seems to be indicative of the very damage and harm to which Ape referred.

>>19158326
I wouldnt recommend it really unless its just people who genuinely share a commen interest in researching hermetic philosophy , neo platonism, greek mythology, eastern belifes and philipophys.

But also I think the true heart of the O.T.O has died out since the 1960s with scattered branches lodges that still retained it throughout the 70s till 90s. But overall its not at all what it once was.

I think you can still find genuin lodges in places like California, New England, the UK .

Also im not into the cutly ascending grades aspect of it, Im more interested in just finding people that share a common interest and that can be basically just a study group