Tell me about Mexican "Catholicism" and their cults

>>18345942
It's not Catholicism. It's a cult where people of many christian sects including Catholicism go to when they feel their religion "fails them". She helps out the downtrodden but you must make a pact with her.

>>18345942
Christian-Aztec Syncretism. Sweet thread.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte#Veneration

Like ^ said, it's syncretic. Method of practicing indigenous religion during colonization so your persecutors don't realize you're still worshipping your local gods.

Over time the original source deity can be forgotten, but traditions and rituals will refer back to the pre-Christian origins.

Pretty ubiquitous throughout history on several different scales, cf. "Hidden Christians" of Japan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan

Some sects of religion actively recommend this to ensure the safety and survival of religious practices, e.g. taqiya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

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Not really a religion, but in the area of the south I'm from, hoodoo is still something to be reckoned with.

Down here it's called "rootwork" and it's something that the more you believe in it, the more it can affect you.

My dad was an EMT for years and during certain calls they'd have to take a specialist with them who could "undo the roots" on someone. It was purely psychosomatic (probably??) but they had themselves convinced of it so strongly they'd be paralyzed, blinded, whatever they THOUGHT was supposed to happen when they realized someone had put a root on them.

Once the specialist did his thing (which was usually to take tongue depressors, snap them, and shake them in a cup while reciting Bible verses, usually from Psalms), they'd be completely fine.

Whether you believe its paranormal-based or not, the ability of the mind and environment to affect the body like that is pretty spooky.

>>18346029
Ever heard of the Yazidis?

>>18345959
Hence the quotations around "Catholicism", since the people in Mexico worshipping these idols are still called Catholic in censuses.
>>18346007
>The Virgin Mary disguised as Kannon, Kirishitan cult, 17th-century Japan
This is an interesting reply anon, thank you
>>18346029
That does sound spooky, I've heard that curses in other cultures have the same effect, but what truly kills them is the isolation that comes from being marked as "cursed", where your community rejects you and treats you differently, making actual symptoms manifest

>>18346053

Not until right now, but holy hell that's interesting. I can only imagine the specific order of factors that have to occur to bring about that kind of religious blending.

And to make it so restrictive is great for keeping it from mutating, but it's got to be very difficult to keep it from dying out in the long run.

>>18346068
Quite fucking interesting indeed.
You can basicaly get people to the point where they see a sign or hear a noise and are changed entirely all of the sudden.

Fakirs that can roll around on sharp blades while under hypnosis. Yazidis not being able to leave a circle without droping unconscious for hours.
Westerners who cannot help spening copious amounts of time with media.

Terribly interesting.

>>18346056

Yeah it's very much the essence of "self-fulfilling prophecy". And I think you're right, in modernity in third-world countries it's a lot more common to call people witches or evil and cause them to be ostracized, rather than killing them outright.

Anthropologically, a lot of witch hunting comes from the lack of resources in a community- by exiling fringe members of the society (i.e. elderly women, orphaned children, etc.) the rest of the members no longer have to care for people who can't "contribute" to the community as a whole.

>>18346081

Do you think it falls under the realm of supernatural or is it more just self-induced trance/religious ecstasy?

Reminds me a little of the glossolalia that goes on in Pentacostal churches- I can't decide if all of it or just the large majority of it is people producing the results of what they EXPECT to happen in that kind of situation. Mind you, I'm not saying there's not ANY real cases of spirit possession, but obviously a huge part of it in the revival movements is for show...

>>18346029
hey anon, rootworker here

>the more you believe in it, the more it can affect you.
This is mostly true, but its misleading. Rootwork works, period. The factors surrounding the case can determine the efficacy, and active disbelief can sometimes prevent it from being effective, but Ive seen it swing the other direction where someone who "didnt believe" saw even the smallest sign it might be working and totally blew the fuck out over it. Its not quite that simple of an equation.

An experienced rootworker who knows the background of how these things function, would recognize what the EMT's as doing, was legitimate rootwork in its own right.

There are people who are skeptical and say "its psychosomatic" but my reply is "and?". The basal cause really doesnt matter... whether its psychosomatic, placebo, or actual magic really doesnt matter as long as the end is met.

It should also be noted that a great deal of rootwork is far from psychosomatic and stems from a deep botanical awareness. There are mixtures used in hoodoo that have very very real physical effects, whether tonics or poisons.

Whether you "believe" or not, its a mistake to underestimate it or write it off as pure superstition.

>>18346095
Do I think it's supernatural?
I think this isn't a good question.

It is paranormal in the sense, that such events aswell as the processes leading up to them are not what we see in everyday life as we live in the west.

The factors regarding these phenomenon are psychological, chemical aswell as physical/mechanical.

>>18346104

I like this explanation a lot. I didn't mean to give the answer of psychosomatic as closing off rootwork just as some Skeleton Key-esque gaslighting, so my apologies if it seemed like I was trying to downplay it.

The botanical side of it is hugely important. I just think there's a big difference in real rootworkers who know what they're doing and working behind the scenes and then your flashy shams peddling florida water as a cure-all

I have mad respect for what hoodoo does as a folkloric institution in the south. It also just happens to serve as a really interesting example of domestic syncretism, with the Bible-as-talisman features and stuff like that.

Nice thread, I didn't know the existence of the worship of this particular deity. Many pre-christian practices can be found in every christian populations, although in most cases the practitioners identify themselves as christians (and maybe are church-goers).

Is this the case of the Santa Muerte cults? Do these followers identify themselves as christians but also worship this deity as a kind of "local saint", or is it a entirely different religion?

>>18346113
nono, no offense was intended, I just wanted to make it clear because that statement can be very misleading to people who dont understand it.

Simply saying: "Ive never encountered rootwork and do not believe in it" is not sufficient to stop it working, and its unwise to underestimate it.

>peddling florida water as a cure all
well, lol, I use florida water on fuckin' errything all the time because its good stuff, but its certainly not a cure all. If a person says theyre working roots and all theyre doing is throwing cologne around, yeah, theyre full of shit. Theres a lot of scamming and bad practice out there for sure.

>bible-as-talisman features
It may be even more interesting for you to know that that's not even southern in origin, that syncretism with the psalms and the bible came from braucherei and Pennsylvania dutch traditions in the Appalachians. It got picked up into the mostly afro-carribean rootwork of the south as soon as east coast mailing companies started shipping out books like "secret of the psalms" and "long lost friend" to the deep south practitioners.

So not only is it a cultural tradition in the south and among southerners, its truly an all-american cultural tradition with roots from around the world.

>>18346146

My understanding is Santa Muerte falls along a spectrum, from being venerated like other saints in Catholicism to cult-like behavior. This is especially true for those who worship her and have been ousted to the fringes of society, specifically criminal elements and the LGBT community, many of whom feel like traditional religion has abandoned them.

>>18346153

Love it. I'm woefully ignorant about hoodoo other than what I've been directly exposed to, but I'm not surprised at the southern tendency to absorb things, alter it a little, and call it southern tradition.

Just goes to show how thin the line is between magic and miracle right? Are you casting a spell or saying a prayer? It's all very relative to me.

I keep a santa muerte altar and usually pop up in these threads to say a bit about La Dama

>>18346172
This is the most correct that I've seen, I've seen her venerated among "catholics" also among "pagans" and also among santeria and regla de ocha folks.

Her veneration and work with her will depend on the other traditions you're using and why youre working with her.

the bit about LGBT and criminal elements comign to her is probably highly accurate, shes definitely an important figure among the narcos, and Im LGBT and know other LGBT worshipers as well. To me, it's about the fact that she has no bias towards race gender culture or even criminality, she is totally neutral to these issues and doesn't judge based on these mortal matters.

>>18346177
>and call it southern tradition

Well the truth is, it IS southern tradition. Southern conjure has earned its name, its NOT braucherei or pow-wow, its not like the Appalachian traditions, its got its own flavor, so I count it as separate even if it has pulled in outside influences.

>casting a spell or saying a prayer
This largely depends on your frame of reference, and yes sometimes it can be a thin line.

>>18346188

I like that she's an unbiased deity in a sense, does her Mayan counterpart have the same connotations? I know Xochipilli was mostly the go-to for the gays and male prostitutes of the time, but I think it's interesting that a psychopomp is where people are turning to look for acceptance.

Does it have something to do with the concept that death is universal and affects everyone regardless of societal divisions?

And do you know anything about the different color versions of her? I remember reading about it somewhere that you pray to a specific-colored version of her for different things, like a more specified veneration, but I haven't seen it in awhile.

>>18346196

Appalachian granny magic is its own brand of unusual. My mom's family is from West Virigina, and when we used to go visit up there there were always talks of snake worship, face jugs and the like.

I read somewhere that the Pentacostal snake-handling churches evolved from this Irish/Scottish snake veneration brought over stateside, having the Melungeon culture and beliefs mix in probably only added to this (having African-American, Native American, and Portuguese substrates with their own folklore systems)

>>18346199
>does her Mayan counterpart have the same connotations?
no not really, its a syncretized thing, she has roots in the ancient gods and may even be a slightly altered form of one, but is something else entirely in the present.

>I think it's interesting that a psychopomp is where people are turning to look for acceptance.
>death is universal and affects everyone regardless of societal divisions?

Nail on the head.

Santisima Muerte does not care if your skin is brown red black white or purple, to her, you are (or will soon be) dust and bones and it doesnt matter. She does not care who you love, or how you make love, because soon enough you wont be able to any longer. She does not care if you are a criminal or a saint, because ultimately we all end up in the same place, with her. She is totally neutral and does not even allow worshippers to curry her favor or convince her one way or the other. We are ALL hers from her perspective because some day we must all die.
It really doesnt matter what minority you come from, or what culture you come from, one day we all die, we all have this in common, and the one who will be there for us when this happens is the most holy death, it's a message of similarity and commonality in a world full of division and difference. One day we all die and Most Holy Death knows this and loves us equally, because in her kingdom we are equal, all is dust and bones.

>different colors
Yes, and this is a mutating and changing tradition, originally there were only three colors, white, red and black, this partially gets tied up in christian mythology as she was white in the begining before death, she was red when Adam and Eve were cast from the garden, and she was black when Cain slew Abel. Other colors have been introduced since then, blue, purple, green, gold etc.
(cont..)

>>18346233

If you know anything about afro-carribean traditions, and vodoun especially, this is not strange at all. Basically these are the different vibrations or elements of her personality. She is something of a pantheon all to herself which explains some of her staying power.

Tradition dictates only three colors, but she has many more in current practices for everything from love, to magic, to money to court cases etc.

I personally do not usually call on these other colors because I rarely see an instance where a court case or some other mortal affair is going to be of enough importance to the Most Holy Death, for her to even have an opinion on it. So I dont usually pester her about it.

>>18346233
Super cool, thank you for this info. Are there any specific prayers associated with her?

>>18346207
yes the melungeon are fascinating, theyre almost like "what would hoodoo look like if it was a person?"

American hoodoo as it stands now is influenced and contains elements of beliefs and practices from: Dutch, German, Irish, Scottish, French, Several native american first people tribes, the taino people, south american people, west african, north african, south african, west indies, chinese, jewish, muslim, protestant, eastern orthodox, and catholic.

It is one hell of a spiritual and cultural mix like nothing the world has seen before frankly.

>>18346259
Oh, just those lol? But yeah it's a crazy topic, especially when you consider how religiously fervent the south is, I'm always impressed that hoodoo has managed to survive in some form or another. But I guess that's the point of syncretism in the first place.

Part of my research deals with the Gullah, so I've gotten some interesting anecdotes about haints and boohags, and how the afro-carribean diaspora pervades into a lot of the existent language and culture

>>18346245
there are little prayer books you can get with pre-written prayers and petitions to her, but in my experience most practitioners work up their own prayers.

It should be noted that you dont curry favor with her the way you do with afro-carribean spirits, or petition her the same way you do with a saint figure. Santa Muerte is entirely neutral... We dont work with her because she is powerful, we work with her because ultimately shes a part of us all, and coming to know her and treating her well will improve our lives in its own right. She sometimes sees fit to lend power to a working, or to answer some kind of request, but it is just that, a request, its not a working or a petition like many other spiritual figures.

>>18346266
>gullah
oh shit I always forget the gullah, add them to the list, shame on me.

The gullah have played a huge part in hoodoo throughout the ages, a LOT of those hoodoo traditions that cant exactly be traced, are actually from them.

>>18346271
So does that mean a request has to be weighted for its "importance" to her general proceedings? I like that it makes for an unselfish kind of devotion rather than the "pray -> receive" model.

Do you find that many other practictioners don't understand or misinterpret her purpose? I only ask because it seems like with her having such a large sub-pantheon there'd be a lot of room for interpretation, especially among criminal elements looking to justify (Robin Hood-ize) their behavior

>>18345942
I've seen/heard of there being giant shrines of her (santa muerte) in communities and people gathering on a certain day to pay their respects and bring her items like fruit, liquor etc.

When I was a kid she wasnt all that "popular", when it started picking up I remember there even being tv programmes showing how if you made a pact with her you best keep it (your promise, like bringing her money or food) or she'll come for you. Truly spooped the fuck out of me.
Now Santa Muerte is fairly "popular", you can easily find figurines and charms with her image.

>>18346278
A lot of people forget about the Gullah, believe me haha. Just ask the ones being kicked out of the Sea Island colonies to make room for golf resorts. That's why I'm working with revitalization efforts in that area.

I just wonder if hoodoo will stay relatively the same, or if it'll be forced to change as communities like that break up and traditional values are lost due to less intergenerational transmission.

>>18346294
Do you know if any of the gatherings are related to Day of the Dead? Seems like it'd be a natural connection.

>>18346172
this is true. however the places where I've seen her shrines I wouldnt call 'fringes of society' , they are definitely rougher areas though.
I saw a docu where every prostitute that was interviewed had Santa Muerte in her 'working area' or even tattooed

>>18346188
yeah, I mean she is death.
death does not discriminate.
death is equal, comes for us all.

>>18346290
well a petition to ANY deific figure has to be weighted based on its importance to their proceedings. You dont usually call up the goddess of love and beauty for success in war. You could, and she might listen, but it would probably not be the result you had in mind.

Santa Muerte, by and large is just indifferent to many of these petitions and prayers. She is a champion of the scorned and the outcast though, she gives protection where no others will, healing where no others will. She is a patron of the family, and of continuing life (ironically, as a psychopomp), one of her only "no-no's" is that she is not cool with adultery, or the abuse of children, I also believe personally that treating death (her) as a servant, through cold murder, or a disrespect for life is a bad thing. These are bad things to her and one of the few ways to get her pissed.

I personally come from a tradition which abhors commenting on other peoples understanding of spirit, its not my business what they and Santisima Muerte do in privacy. I cant say they're misinterpreting, its not really my say or business.

I think its likely that some criminal elements use her to justify their actions i.e. "my life is crappy and I must do this bad thing, please protect me so I can do bad thing" but in a sense... Im not sure i blame them. I dont know that spirituality should be reserved solely for those who are law-abiding. Maybe shes badly needed by these folks. I can't judge anyone else, and I like Santa Muerte because she doesnt either.

>>18346320
That was really well-put. You've got a sharp mind and a clear eye for this kind of stuff. This board usually depresses the hell out of me lately in terms of sheer role-playing insanity, so I really appreciate you taking the time to explain some of the intricacies of this.

>>18346301
I actually have studied them and read books about them, my forgetting them was an error on my behalf, I honestly feel a bit bad, they DO get overlooked frequently, and its unfair.

>I'm working with revitalization efforts in that area.
May the spirits bless you, they need the help. Thank you so much, truly.

>if it'll be forced to change
Hoodoo has always and will always be a balancing act between tradition and innovation.
New innovations need to make sense, and work. If they do, they'll eventually be integrated. We fall back on tradition because we know it works, and we experiment with new things as old things become unavailable or outdated.

Sacajawea dollars, and Coke are good examples of this. In tradition, scout pennies (or indian head pennies), were used for a number of purposes, but they stopped minting them like 100 years ago, theyre becoming rarer and rarer. They can still be had, and are widely used... but for how long? How long until the last scout penny gets buried in a graveyard and the tradition dies? Sacajawea gold dollars are new, nice and shiny, pretty, and have a literal native american scout, sacajawea on them... I see no reason they cant replace the old indian head cents.

Coke, wasn't around throughout the history of hoodoo, but recently its been being used in very specific spells that arent covered by honey jars or vinegar jars... its a new tradition from a new product that gets great results...

Hoodoo will always change, that is by design, the important part is to remember what it WAS and keep the traditions, even if we evolve or change to new ones.

>>18346332
thank you, I really live for these kind of messages from folk. Im really glad something I said might've helped you in some way, please be well and thank you for your kind words.

>>18346305
no, they are not. People get together more often than once a year: once a week in some places or once a month.

Someone can get me weed in General Bravo N.L.?