If the Paranormal isn't real, why was the Randi challenge

your first mistake is thinking people with "miracles" will have a want or desire in life to seek monetary gain. they won't, it doesn't exist in the afterlife

>>18108049
>why was the Randi challenge terminated?

don't know, but i would assume after so many years and no one passed all the levels he figured he wasted enough time proven his point.

>I know they give a bullshit explanation about how they can't interact with such idiots

who is "they"

>, but it seems to me like someone actually passed the test and as such, Randi closed it.

so you think some one passed the challenge and didn't talk about it or call him out for not acknowledging it?

>>18108053
>"miracles"

miracles are due to chance which is what the challenge was designed to prevent.

>>18108120
>who is "they"
The foundation

>so you think some one passed the challenge and didn't talk about it or call him out for not acknowledging it?

If they tried calling him out, do you think someone would pay attention to them?

>>18108049
Who passed the challenges, anon?

Until you can answer that, you have no leg to stand on, and should feel embarrassed by this thread. Randi is a scholar and a gentleman, and unless you can prove otherwise, you will treat him as such.

>>18108140
>Randi is a scholar and a gentleman
No he's not, he's a magician. And magicians are known liars. It's their job.

>>18108219
That has nothing to do with anything, and you know it.

James Randi, as well as Penn & Teller, are well known for making fun of the magician stereotypes. They don't take their profession seriously in the way David Blaine and Chris Angel do. They realize and acknowledge it as entertainment.

Only thing is, this particular brand of entertainment is reliant on the ability to lie convincingly.

That being said, his lying is in no way related to someone else being truthful in their ability to perform real magic.

>>18108122
>If they tried calling him out, do you think someone would pay attention to them?

yes, i would think someone would. but whether the ones calling him on it were full of shit or not is another story.

Dude, have you read over some of the entries? If anyone legit was gunna do it, they would have years ago. The testing process was always hella methodical and imperical, which is why frauds and roleplayers got btfo.

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>>18108049
His Uri Geller days were great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo

I don't know why the challenge is over, I never realized it was. The fact that he issued the challenge made more news than any of the attempts to break it ever did. I'm not even sure how many attempts there were, if any.

>>18108253
Good post.
Penn and Teller's "Fool Us" magician show has been really successful, it kind of reminds me of a Paranormal Challenge. If anyone can perform magic tricks that Penn and Teller can't figure out (or already know), they win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCFXV6o7cro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAN-PwRfJcA

>>18108556
I love me some Penn & Teller. I hope to go to Vegas soon and see them perform live.

I grew up watching their specials, reading their books, and watching "Fool Us".

Not to mention "Bullshit."
Everything they do is golden.

>>18108049
I'm no expert, but James Randi is fucking old. He turned 88 this year. This probably has to do with why.

>>18108573
I like them too, although I used to hate them because the snark and cynicism of Penn's show "Bullshit" really got to me. They hoaxed Bigfoot stuff which is one of my favorite topics and it triggered me hard. You can't just fake things and then fool a couple people on the internet and say "haha, all things in this genre are now debunked" but ah well, it comes with the territory if you're into paranormal stuff. They took down some well deserved BS topics and scams especially in the business world.

You know any tricks? What's your opinion on Blane and the "Blane generation" of magic vs big show performers?

>>18108671
I actually consider myself to be an amateur magician/illusionist. David Blaine was the one who got me interested in magic. I remember going to a magic shop and spending 25 bucks on that "bitten quarter" trick. I learnt all of his sleight of hand card tricks and even perfected his levitating trick. To me, he's the best when it comes to street magic.

But i hated him for his stage magic. Everyone knows that he's a magician. Even though I knew he keeps himself physically fit, it was cringy seeing him trying to play up his role in the ice block trick, or his burried alive stunt. We go in to a show knowing there's a trick. Don't try to lay some added dedpth to it about "years of training" and "putting my body through torture to tolerate this tempersture/ lack of air".

It was cringy, and it really paved the way for the disappointment that is Criss Angel.

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>>18108731
>I learnt all of his sleight of hand card tricks and even perfected his levitating trick
I remember that. Good times. I did the "stand at the right angle and lift off with one tiptoe" method (which only allows an inch or so of levitation) a couple times and it worked. His full on multiple-feet above the pavement levitation shots from the show though... everyone swore those were spliced in with actors and different from the smaller levitations (which were said to be 'real' with real reactions from real people).

>the ice block trick, or his burried alive stunt
Yes the "Magic Christ" period. It's been a while since he's done that. The one I remember the most is him standing still on top of a tower for days on end, especially because everyone was afraid someone would slingshot him with something or try to make him fall off. Seems like he was subtly dropping red pills about ancient mystery schools/secret societies (which require meditation and death defiance or reenactments as occult ritual) but maybe I'm reading too far into that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qRUhQESEs4

>Criss Angel.
Don't you mean MIND FREEEAAAKK? *tips edge*

Cheers magic bro.

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>>18108049
Dear OP,
please read the following in-depth article about James Randi and give it open-minded consideration.
>http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/09/magazine/the-unbelievable-skepticism-of-the-amazing-randi.html?_r=0

>>18108053
>your first mistake is thinking people with "miracles" will have a want or desire in life to seek monetary gain. they won't, it doesn't exist in the afterlife

"no matter how many times he assured his audiences that such stunts were a result of subterfuge and legerdemain, he found there were always believers. They came up to him in the street and asked him for stock tips; when he insisted that he was just a magician, they nodded — but winked and whispered that they knew he was truly psychic. Once he understood the power he had over his audience, and how easily he could exploit their belief in the supernatural to make money, it frightened him: “To have deceived people like that ... that’s a terrible feeling,” he said." - from the NYtimes article
>how easily he could exploit the supernatural to make money
People who perform "miracles", and those write books or otherwise become known for supporting "miraculous" conspiracy beliefs, do this specifically. Perhaps their faith in the light at the end of the tunnel is insincere?

1/?

>>18108219
He specifically uses his magic tricks to teach people about how easy it is to get fooled. He is an anti-liar

>>18108049
>someone actually passed the test
Dr Dick Bierman, who has a PhD in physics, informed me that he did in fact approach James Randi about the Million Dollar Challenge in late 1998.

>After some exchange of ideas I was brought into contact with Randi. Randi sounded sincerely interested and I worked out a proposal for an interesting experiment that would last about a year. Experimental effects in this type of research are small and require a lot of measurements to reach the required statistical significance (I think Randi wanted a p-value of 0.000001).

>Note that he didn't insist on showing the effect on stage. Rather I proposed to do a kind of precognition (actually presentiment) experiment on-line over Internet where he or some other independent skeptic could generate the targets once the responses were communicated over the Internet (all this would be done automatically on a computer under his control within a second). This would prevent cheating from the experimenter's side but we still had to work out how to prevent cheating from the Randi-side.

>At that point Randi mentioned that before proceeding he had to submit this preliminary proposal to his scientific board or committee. And basically that was the end of it. I have no idea where the process was obstructed but I must confess that I was glad that I could devote myself purely to science rather than having to deal with the skeptics and the associated media hypes.

>>18108556
>>18108573
muh niggas

Penn and Teller are absolutely great. I am currently rewatching their magic and mystery tour around the world and it equally entertaining and interesting.


Also, if anybody is interested in Randi, or the the world of scam artists and their debunkers in general, I can highly recommend the docu An Honest Liar
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2246565/

Guys pls

http://web.randi.org/home/jref-status

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>>18109727
cont.

>>18108122
>>>18108120
>>who is "they"
>The foundation
Who/what is the foundation, exactly? You can read about the formation of Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (Csicop); I'm quite curious as how this "foundation" you mention compares to Csicop.
>>so you think some one passed the challenge and didn't talk about it or call him out for not acknowledging it?
>If they tried calling him out, do you think someone would pay attention to them?
The article I linked in the previous post opens with a story of an attempt at The Amazing Meeting, an annual weekend-long conference (for skeptics) in July 2014. The conferences started in 2003. In 2007, "Randi revised the rules and announced a plan to take the challenge to high-profile psychics, including Sylvia Browne, John Edward and — once again — Uri Geller. None of them agreed to participate.. in 2008 ..he invited James McCormick, a British businessman, to take the challenge. McCormick had built equipment that could supposedly detect explosives from afar, which Randi recognized was simply a telescoping antenna swiveling on a plastic handle — a dowsing rod. Randi publicly offered the million-dollar prize to McCormick if he could prove that the device worked as claimed. McCormick, who was selling his product to security forces in the Middle East, never responded. But the British Police began an investigation, and last year McCormick was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to 10 years in prison, having sold at least $38 million worth of his miraculous device to the Iraqi government."
"Randi never forgot the believers, and how susceptible they were to exploitation by those who lacked his scruples. And so, as his reputation as a magician grew, he also began to campaign against spiritualists and psychics. In 1964, as a guest on a radio talk show, he offered $1,000 of his own money in a challenge to anyone who could show scientific evidence of supernatural powers."

>>18109738
Ertel, Professor Emeritus of Georg-August-University of Göttingent, developed a type of experiment which seems to facilitate large-scale psi effects

>My first approach [to Randi] was made because I thought the prize might be achieved by the Gauquelin planetary effect, a statistical "paranormal" or "neo-astrological" effect, with which I was very familiar as researcher. The problem was that decisions regarding the sample which would amount to 1000 natal charts was dependent on much informed thought, and Randi didn't know how to deal with the conditions. Correspondence came to an end.

>The second approach was made because I had applied to win the prize of 10,000 EURO which the German GWUP promised to someone who would be able to demonstrate large psi effects. Winning this prize would have been considered by Randi as passing his preliminary test, his first test which must be passed before someone is allowed to apply for Randi's main $1 000 000 test.

>The psi effect demanded, even for the GWUP test = Randi's preliminary test, was so large that I was not hopeful that I would be able to show so much of psi, with the help of my psi-gifted students which I selected by my "pingpong ball test". My only goal was to achieve a statistically significant effect so as to make the skeptics admit that they observed a significant psi effect. This goal was achieved by my first trial (one psi-gifted participant) in 2005. In 2006 another test was conducted with the presence of GWUP people: two of my students, psi-gifted in earlier tests, participated. In this test the effect was not significant.

>Ertel's first test with the GWUP had a p value of .018. He mentioned that two additional students among a number of observers also participated, secretly, during the test. Their results were also significant, giving a total significance p-value of .002. Ertel told me that the GWUP skeptics, to their credit, did note the results of the two students who had participated secretly.

>>18109745
Sheldrake pointed out a previous confrontation as evidence for his distrust of James Randi:

>The January 2000 issue of Dog World magazine included an article on a possible sixth sense in dogs, which discussed some of my research. In this article Randi was quoted as saying that in relation to canine ESP, "We at the JREF [James Randi Educational Foundation] have tested these claims. They fail." No details were given of these tests.

>I emailed James Randi to ask for details of this JREF research. He did not reply. He ignored a second request for information too.

>I then asked members of the JREF Scientific Advisory Board to help me find out more about this claim. They did indeed help by advising Randi to reply. In an email sent on Februaury 6, 2000 he told me that the tests he referred to were not done at the JREF, but took place "years ago" and were "informal". They involved two dogs belonging to a friend of his that he observed over a two-week period. All records had been lost. He wrote: "I overstated my case for doubting the reality of dog ESP based on the small amount of data I obtained. It was rash and improper of me to do so."

>Randi also claimed to have debunked one of my experiments with the dog Jaytee, a part of which was shown on television. Jaytee went to the window to wait for his owner when she set off to come home, but did not do so before she set off. In Dog World, Randi stated: "Viewing the entire tape, we see that the dog responded to every car that drove by, and to every person who walked by." This is simply not true, and Randi now admits that he has never seen the tape.

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>>18109727
>>18109743
cont. 3/3
>>18108219
>he's a magician. And magicians are known liars. It's their job.

From the article:
During the late ’60s and early ’70s, popular interest in the paranormal grew: There was a fascination with extrasensory perception and the Bermuda Triangle and best sellers like “Chariots of the Gods,” which claimed Earth’s ancient civilizations were visited by aliens. There were mystics, mind-readers and psychic surgeons, who were said to be able to extract tumors from their patients using only their bare hands — and without leaving a mark. Randi continued on his crusade. Few of his fellow illusionists were interested in exposing the way that conjuring tricks were used to dupe gullible audiences into believing in psychic abilities. “Everybody else just kind of rolled their eyes,” Penn Jillette, a good friend of Randi’s, told me. “'Why is Randi spending all this time doing this? We all know there is no ESP. It’s just stupid people believe it, and that’s fine.’ ”

Randi kept up his $1,000 challenge — and eventually increased it to $10,000 — but found few takers.

.....

anyone who is a fan of Randi or magic ITT should read the piece. I thought it was both really informative and entertaining. Here's the link again.

>http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/09/magazine/the-unbelievable-skepticism-of-the-amazing-randi.html?_r=0#

I now really admire and highly respect James Randi. He offers grants through his education foundation so that people can travel to The Amazing Meeting (TAM) conferences. He's never strayed from the path in search of truth...
>Randi has never smoked, taken narcotics or got drunk... I want to be as aware as I possibly can. That may mean giving up a lot of fantasies that might be comforting in some ways, but I’m willing to give that up in order to live in an actually real world.”
...I'll tip my fedora to that, in all sincerity.

>>18109738
>>18109745

you got a source for this copy paste or are you full of shit?

>>18108291
/thread

>>18109813
You can read about Ertel's experiments here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=YxDddIkpmnYC&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=ertel+ball+drawing+test

The above quotes were from personal correspondence quoted from:
http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge

If the relation of quotes from personal correspondence is dubious to you, I invite you to write to Bierman:
http://www.uva.nl/over-de-uva/organisatie/medewerkers/content/b/i/d.j.bierman/d.j.bierman.html

And Ertel:
[email protected]

As well as the JREF if you want to enter an article on this into academic record.

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>>18109747
>Randi now admits that he has never seen the tape.
>>18109747
>"I overstated my case for doubting the reality of dog ESP based on the small amount of data I obtained. It was rash and improper of me to do so."

we're all only human. everyone has lied in their lifetime... I give him credit for coming clean.

>>18109836
not the anon that asked, but thanks for the sources. I'm not convinced there is evidence here that indeed one of these men "passed the test", but it's well worth looking into as to what proof can be validated regarding what DID happen during testing.

FWIW, Ape, been a long time lurker of your threads on the occult and have dipped into your library at the Mega upload site a time or two and got just fascinating stuff to read about. You're the man, man.

>>18110004
The thing you quoted wasnt him coming clean about a lie, tho

>>18108049
Holy shit is that Terry Pratchett on the photo.

>>18108556

I already love this Shin Lim guy, his first trick is that he tells us to "Perspect the art", where one would normally expect "respect the art".

Watching his show, I'm enthralled, this is some Top Notch stuff.

>>18108731
Have you watched his Ted Talk about breaking the record for holding his breath?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that he housed his secret gay lover who is more than a decade his junior and was also an illegal immigrant for decades. So honest. So truthful.

>>18110209

Who the fuck cares about his sexuality? It's such a minor detail to his complex personality it's not even worth mentioning.

>>18109836
I think i love you

>>18108049
They could have taken that 1 million and donated to charity.

>>18110214
Yeah. I don't care much for the guy, but "he's gay though" is a definite ad hominem.

>>18110197
No not yet, but I'll look it up now.

>>18108120
Half of /x/ BTFO!!!

>>18110267
I hope you are joking.

>>18109747
Sheldrake is a dishonest slimebag

>>18108253
>They don't take their profession seriously in the way David Blaine and Criss Angel do
You make good points, but the one thing I disagree on is this. David Blaine and Criss Angel know they're entertainers as well, I don't think either has claimed they have paranormal abilities and I know for a fact Criss angel has said he doesn't believe in paranormal abilities at all. The only difference is that Randi and Penn & Teller are basically retired magicians, they used to take their magic careers just as seriously as they do. Uri Geller would be a better counter example since he tries to con people into thinking stage magic is something mystical.

>>18108053
Well, couldn't they donate it to some charity if they're so detached from material posessions?

>Oh, here's a cool mil I could earn with a few minutes of my work, but I don't care about money because I'm THAT enlightened
>How about doing that little effort, winning the prize and donating the money to build a library, or something useful for society?
>O-oh look, it's nearly 3 o'clock, I have to go home dust my healing crystals KTHXBYE

>>18110331
Not to mention helping the whole of humanity get a better understanding of the world.
But no, apparently these "miracle"makers are completely apathetic towards everything except make themselves evident only for some /x/tards.

So you're saying the clowns are zombies wearing costumes because I can't understand what you're saying.

>>18110276
https://youtube.com/watch?v=XFnGhrC_3Gs

>>18110023
the first one was? about him seeing the tape. That was my understanding, anyway.
I'm with you as far as being skeptical of the claims of this "people who passed the test" post otherwise. I haven't had time to check those sources or read more about it yet.

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>>18110209
>I'm surprised no one has mentioned that he housed his secret gay lover who is more than a decade his junior and was also an illegal immigrant for decades.

It was discussed in detail in the article that I asked OP to read in this post >>18109727

>So honest. So truthful.
Go eat a bag of dicks.

Do you have anything to accuse the man of that you can justify or back up with some evidence?

>>18110293
tell us skeptic x-files moar, please, anon. Where'd you get that opinion of him from? Care to point me to more info about his "challenge attempt"?

>>18108049
>>18109727
His beard is really cool

>>18108731
>We go in to a show knowing there's a trick. Don't try to lay some added dedpth to it about "years of training" and "putting my body through torture to tolerate this tempersture/ lack of air"

I had a martial arts teacher point out to me that just because something is a parlor trick doesn't mean that it isn't difficult and/or dangerous. I would say a lot of parlor tricks are sort of a physical manifestation of the telephone game regarding extreme ability. To be well-rounded in this regard really does take many years of conditioning.

>>18108253
>James Randi
Penn & Tellar are the biggest liars out of anyone you mentioned.

"My opponent got bored of arguing with me and left, therefore making me the victor."

~ OP and all other retards

>>18108049
I'll tell you this....I'm sick of this "If then why" bullshit propounded by believers. But if you're so fond of "If then why," here's one:

If the paranormal exists and is supposedly all around us, then why has there never been one single properly conducted, properly controlled scientific experiment that has proven the existence of any paranormal phenomena?

A thing is real or it's not. If it's real, it can be shown to be real through repeatable scientific tests. Not one so-called paranormal phenomenon or event has ever been shown to be real. And all the failures to do so have been handwaved with lame excuses.

Call me whatever you want (and I'm sure you will) but that can't and won't diminish the truth of what I've just said.

>>18108053
Lol, as if being able to do something psychically suddenly means that you no long enjoy mansions, pools, Rollses, and such.

That's a load of crap. Just because "magic" and "monk" start with the same letter doesn't mean that the two are remotely related.

>>18108556
That Uri Geller debunk is almost as shitty as the original Uri Geller. It is clear that he is not using a broken spoon, and the part about proving the spoon trick…using spoons? Come on Randi, give me a break. Your material is almost as bad as the magician's.

Proves to you that just because a man calls himself a debunker it doesn't mean he is smart
also
>debunking "magic" surgery claiming it was all stage tricks
>never seen footage of these feats performed live
how sad

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>>18112657
>and the part about proving the spoon trick…using spoons
I meant to fucking say he proved it using keys. "Here's how I will show you how to bend a spoon. First, get two keys…"

wow the number of paid shills in this thread is staggering

>>18112487
I agree to a large extent. I mean while I know the paranormal and pseudoscience to be objectively not real, I try to understand and not deny a believer's subjective experience. Like faith in god, those who truly believe despite there being no proof. A person might swear on their life they saw the ghost of their dead mother, go to psychic - have their belief confirmed that their mother has reached out beyond the grave... I'm not going to take away this person's comforting beliefs and (what beliefs often stir up in us, especially strongly-held beliefs) feelings related to their beliefs and experiences. I especially would never attempt to deny that of someone personally, directly. I wouldn't hesitate to however say, if asked, that I don't believe these to be -real-. I would say that my guess is that there is some scientific explanation we don't yet know about ourselves - how our memories and how our minds work, that may explain why these beliefs (and experiences) are so "real" for them. (iirc, there have been studies investigating this about the "white light at the end of the tunnel" in near-death experiences.) There's a reason why it's been man's nature to believe in god, afterlife, magic, ghosts, superstitions - all of it - throughout the history of mankind. Perhaps it was beneficial to our early evolution. Yes, religious extremes have also torn us apart and caused war and strife for thousands of years; but people still find something beneficial on a personal (subjective) basis in their beliefs (might be ghosts, not god, vice versa, or both.) I don't think it's necessarily beneficial to stopping people from believing; I think as we've come closer to a biological or other explanation for these beliefs and faiths, we've seen people adhere to them less. If we all arrive at a rational scientific understanding - no pseudoscience, no religion - in another 2,000 years... well then I guess we'll know then if all this is true, or even a good way of looking at it.

>>18112566
I thought immediately of all the 1-800 psychics and psychics that get famous going on TV, the Benny Hinns and psychic surgeon faith healer types... are they really helping people? are they not doing it for money?

historically, kings relied on seers and such for guidance - those psychics had a grand life at court with fine surroundings and food compared to the average peasant, I'm sure. of course if they ever guessed wrong and gave bad advice they'd lose their head.

maybe some fortune tellers once advised those they cared about. or there are those that don't accept payment - if so I imagine them in a tiny unheard of town somewhere, and you'd only be able to find them by word-of-moth or a personal referral or something.

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>>18112676
nice meme-bait, faggotron