Can somebody explain to me in simple words how they were able

Dr. Pavel, I'm CIA

By writing data on to them.

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A cartridge in it's most basic form is just a convenient way to plug a ROM chip into the CPU of a console.

ROM is very simple. You give ROM a number called an "address", and it returns a number that is the "data" at that address.

Because we are working with digital electronics, these numbers are specified as binary numbers. For old ROM chips found in carts, the bits for both the address and data numbers have a direct mapping to the pins on the ROM.

For example, let's say we have a ROM that can take a 15-bit address and returns 8-bit data, for a total of 2^15-1 bytes of memory. In that case, there are literally 15 address pins on the ROM chip labeled A0-A14 and 8 data pins labeled D0-D7. The pins are directly connected to the contacts on the cartridge.

Everything gets reduced down to a number on a computer, both data and code alike. Loosely speaking, a computer is designed to execute instructions by keeping track of the address of the instruction to execute (called the "program counter" or PC), fetching the number at that address, interpreting the number as an instruction, executing that instruction, incrementing the PC, and doing it all over again.

In this way a game can be stored on a ROM, which a console can read to execute code and get data.

there might be a chip-select pin or output-enable pin on a ROM chip too, but those are minor details.

make sense?

>>4104298
>Can somebody explain to me in simple words how they were able to get videogames on little microchip strips in the 80s?
The Japanese are full of mysteries and we must respect them.

>>4104317
That's fuckin coolio thanks

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80s? Try 70s.

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> 6502 assembly language
> tilemaps, 4 color palette swaping, bank switching
> ROM size was a main design concern
> SMB1 is 31kB
> ?????
> PROFIT

>>4104394
SMB1 didn't use bank switching, along with a number of other early NES games.

>>4104317
Neatly explained, good job!

>>4104298
>80s

They've been doing that since the 50s, kiddo

>>4104456
But video games didn't even exist until Nintendo invented them in 1985.

>>4104464
Not quite. Before 1985, only arcade machines existed, which were exclusively manufactured by Atari. It was the world-wide video game crash - which was so severe it led to a general economic depression - which opened the market for Nintendo to release their first ever home video game console, the Nintendo Entertainment System.

>>4104523
>world-wide video game crash
It was literally just America and only home consoles.

>>4104550
America is the whole world

>>4104523
The original development name of the Famicom/NES was actually the NSX. And if you look at old internet forums and magazines lots of people continued to refer to it as the NSX even after its release. All these youngins think it's some sort of recent "trend" or something but they weren't even alive back then.

>>4104550
>>4104562
America is objectively the only country that matters.

ITT: asshurt kids, who resent having their "knowledge" corrected by people who were actually there, "ironically" shitpost

>>4104523
Did you know that in Japan the crash never happened? In fact, video games were so popular that one series, Dominican Dominican Panic is the sole reason why the famicom came out there Of course, this game was later reskinned and released in the US as Wrecking Crew.

>>4104317
this doesn't say how they got it on the chips tho

it says how the chips work sorta

>>4104634
The chips are mask ROMs, which means they are made by photolithography The bits are burned into the ROM at manufacture.

The printed circuit board is also structure with photolithography to make all the traces.

The actual components were prolly wave soldered on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWH58QrprVc

ya smarmy fuck

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>>4104523

>>4104298
why did they make the cases so large?

>>4105351
Consideirng how spacious old microboards got, it's most likely some sort of standardized scale for all games that some used more of.

>>4105351
They made NES carts approximately double the size of Famicom carts so that they would be closer in size and shape to VHS tapes, which Americans were already familiar with and accepted as a good value. They worried that Americans might consider paying $60 for a small piece of plastic a rip off.
I think there's some stereotyping going on in that they assume a direct contrast between Japanese peoples' preference for smaller belongings (presumably due to small apartments in dense cities) and Americans' preference for "bigger is better."

I doubt it made any difference in sales. The larger carts did occasionally come in handy when they wanted to put famicom cartridge boards inside with a 60-72 pin adapter built in. If the NES carts had been exactly the same size as famicom carts, there may have been some boards that wouldn't have fit along with the adapter. They probably considered the different pin layout necessary to protect US retailers from competition with the Japanese market, and likely would have kept it even if they had gone with a smaller form factor for the NES.

>>4104568
I've always called it NS1

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>>4105767
D'ohohoho
fuck you

>>4105554

Americans are fucking stupid.

>>4107867
>Japans perception of Americans is fucking stupid

FTFY

>>4104298
It adds to the rom, there is a vid on this, hang on.

>>4107894
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NLEMsw1SjDY

This is more than simple enough.

>>4104298
What in the flying fuck is going on with the PCB in your image OP? There's some shit going on with the Bit4 and Bit5 pads, H and V mirroring look scratched off entirely, and there appears to be a very small hole drilled through the PCB on the lower right hand side of the CHR ROM for that blue wire.

What the fuck?

>>4104574
m8 that would be the united kingdom, we right in the fucking middle of every map for a reason, dickhead.

>>4107887
Nah, they tested famicon shit and people disliked it as they didnt trust carts, so the changed the shape and marketed them as tapes.

>>4108103
Thats the technical term

See it used here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_S-SMP
Under Techincal details > DSP

>>4105554
Also the fact that Americans were pretty sick of bullshit video game consoles. Remember the market had JUST crashed and there was a glut of surplus consoles from every damned company of earth at the time.
So they tried to make the NES look less like yet another home electronics video game television console and made it look like something classier...like a VCR...

Which is the exact approach consoles are taking again. It's not a game machine, it's an ENTERTAINMENT machine that can shit out all manner of media at you.

>>4108164
>Which is the exact approach consoles are taking again. It's not a game machine, it's an ENTERTAINMENT machine that can shit out all manner of media at you.
but they are and they can. at this point most people can get by with a phone and a game console and have zero need for a full pc or even a laptop.

>>4104317
>ROM is very simple
>explains shit I'll never understand
But I want to, so where do I start?

>>4108230
start by asking questions. what don't you understand?

>>4108234
What do I need to know at the most basic level? Any specific math? Anything practical, like anything specific about electronics?

>>4108237
At the most basic level you don't need to know anything. You plug the game in an play it. The most technical thing maybe worth you knowing is that it' a type of memory chip that stores the game.

>>4108237
That depends on what you want to do or are interested in learning more about. The electronics/computer rabbit hole can go as deep as you want it, but you can do some cool things with just a little knowledge.

Since this is a computer hardware thread, that means you are probably more interested in computers than than electronics. While knowing electronics is incredibly useful, to appreciate why the electronics are made the way they are, you must understand binary logic, which is the foundation for modern computer hardware.

That means you should read about Boolean Algebra (OR, AND, NOT, etc.) and how to count in binary. Then it would be fun and instructive to learn about basic digital binary circuits, like adders and latches, and try to build them in a circuit simulator.

https://simulator.io/

Honestly though, I would strongly suggest watching these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DWlqtsNGV0

It's a series MIT undergraduate lectures that go through "computer organization". The videos are a time investment, and you may have to watch them several times, but by the end of the course you can say you know how to design a microprocessor.

If this is TMI, start small, and tell me what didn't make sense about >>4104317

>>4108148
They absolutely did not market them as "tapes." Don't make up bullshit and pretend to know it's true. The Japanese stereotype of Americans was "stupid" to some extent, in that they believed Americans would care more about a bigger form factor than anything else. That has no bearing on reality, and as I asserted likely had no actual impact on sales.

>>4108289
Actually no, this is perfect. I feel like binary is the perfect start as well, since I never understood what it is, the reason for using it, or even how a computer knows how to "read"

>>4108289
>>4108887
Forgot to mention, thank you, I'll certainly bring any more questions up once I have more, but for now I feel I should focus on what you've given

>>4108372
>had no actual impact on sales
>they sold both and they sold equal numbers
>so i know know that
>i was born before the ds came out
fucking kek

>>4108230

WHat bits are, binary system and code, how an address is made with these and what address means in this context.

>>4104762
That sounds expensive. Why didn't diskette tech take off in consoles? Because piracy?

>>4108215
>most people can get by with a phone and a game console and have zero need for a full pc or even a laptop.

Except a PC or laptop does everything a phone and console don't. Causals are stupid and should stay in /v/ and /jp/.

>>4110267
Nintendo switched to the Famicom Disk System exclusively until ROM lowered in price, around the time the NES was new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9PuSrn_H1c

>>4110287
>namefag calling anybody casual
you really should consider suicide. 95% of people don't need to do the shit a PC does, thus they can get by with a console for games/netflix and a phone for email and facebook. and I really hope you aren't implying I'm a casual, cause if you are I'd like to see you try and say that to my face.

>>4110190
>likely
Because inferences don't exist and the only useful ideas are empirical experimental results, right?
So true anon, so true. Thanks for setting me straight. I'll never use deductive reasoning again.

But consider the fact that they did sell both: with the SNES they reverted to using a smaller cartridge design.

>>4111151
>implying you've used any type of reasoning ever

>>4112190
Thanks for conceding the point. Two things are pretty clear based on what we can reason: the Japanese in the 1980s thought American consumers were superficial, and brand ubiquity contributed more to the success of the NES than anything else.

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It's magic, basically. If you want to understand how it works down to the lowest level and including all the processes of production, you have a decade of studying ahead of you, if not more.

>>4113156
> If you want to understand how it works down to the lowest level and including all the processes of production, you have a decade of studying ahead of you, if not more.
Eh. You can do a fairly reductionist course and fit most of into a few classes that would take at most a few months if you were very disciplined and not retarded.
Two basic standard math books to cover algebra/calculus, a physics book, an electronics book, and a digital design book and you'd be basically there in explaining how ROMs and CPUs work. It's actually pretty straightforward and simple albeit layers of shit to go through.

In the same way that you can explain how legos click together but then you just really need to take a look at the various orientations and how they mix and are setup for each fully built scene.

Well, up to a point, no one's going to break down the fundamental principles of the universe to explain 'every' single detail because frankly no one fucking know what fundamental particles 'are' or why they are, we just have basic abstractions and understandings of how they work but that level of understanding is overkill on the physics end of digital circuitry. In the same way you don't need to understand particle physics and mechanical engineering to get how legos work, but they both do technically play roles that are easily abstracted out in all practical scenarios.

>>4113179
Well, it depends on how deep you want to go and how thorough you want your understanding on the different levels to be. If you only want to get a rough grip on it so you don't get lost reading about the different subsystems and mechanics, sure, that's doable in less time. If you want to understand why electrons electron, good luck.

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>>4113308
I mean, look at this thing, the mighty 6502 processor that ruled consumer electronics for over a decade. I understand on a basic level how those circuits work, but putting it all together, I'm just at a complete loss. Where to begin?

>>4104317
I'm stupid, I didn't understand a thing.
Could please someone translate it to caveman language?

>>4113323
The instruction set and specs are the place to begin. That's everything you need to know about the processor.

>>4113435
I'll take a swing at it.

GAME IS BLOCK! BLOCK HAS CHIP INSIDE! CODEMONKEY MAKE CODE! CODEMONKEY PUT CODE ON CHIP! CHIP HAVE METAL RODS! CAN PUSH CODE THROUGH SINGLE ROD OR MANY ROD! CODE SAY WHAT GOES ON WHAT METAL ROD! WHEN CODE HAPPENS, COUNTER GOES UP! CONSOLE USE COUNTER TO KNOW WHAT CODE GOES NEXT! NEANDERTHALS SUCK DICK! AAAAAAAHHHH!

I hope that was helpful.

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>>4107915
Fun fact:
On a C64 you could even exploit the way the computer was handling the cartridges when there isn't one present.
Usually the Cartridge ROM gets mapped to the Adress $8000 with some values that point to where the code starts.
http://sta.c64.org/cbm64mem.html#page08

You could easily set the pointers to an address of your choice to make you programs soft reset proof (RUN/STOP + Restore).
You just had to write the string "CBM80" to Address $8000 followed with the address (little endian as usual for those processors) to jump to when the soft reset is triggered.
So let's say you have your assembler program stored at $C000 (or 49152 decimal) you just write CBM8000C0 to $8000 and voila it works.

>>4113656
Thats kinda neat, but whats the practical application of it?
I mean, the only thing that comes to mind is game getting into meta territory and 'reset' being a part of what you have to do in order to progress.

>>4113323
It's a mind fuck that the placement of those precious metals somehow makes computers work

>>4113528
can I suck it before game is block?

>>4104298
Why is there so much wasted space there? They totally could have made the carts half the size.

>>4113914
They knew americans have a tendency of shoving things right up their asses so they tried to make it as hard as possible.

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>>4113323
>I understand on a basic level how those circuits work
hmm, something tells me you are deceiving yourself. as mentioned, the rabbit hole goes as deep as you want it.

quantum physics
solid state physics
transistors
logic gate <= start here
combinational logic - adders, multiplexers, decoders, etc.
sequential logic - latches, flip flops, etc. aka memory
finite state machines
cpus

a good place to start is at logic gates. learn how to count in binary and boolean algebra, read about some basic circuits like adders, multiplexers, and registers. download a circuit simulator and implement what you read (when I was a student I used the ancient chipmunk tool's DigLOG). It's astonishing how fast you can build up from logic gate to cpu.

you can fully appreciate the logic aspect of computers without any electronics knowledge. Of course, ultimately you have to have that knowledge to implement the hardware, and per my (incomplete) list that goes a long way in another direction. Electronics and semiconductor is terrifically fascinating stuff.

Regardless, with or without computer/electronics/physics knowledge, anyone can appreciate the glittering jewel of a cpu in action:

http://visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html

I recently taught myself FPGA, which is essentially a box of gates in a chip that can be connected like legos. FPGAs are flexible enough to implement full CPUs, meaning they can do anything a computer can. I am going to start a thread soon that tries to implement a parts of a tile-based video game system from the logic gate up.

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>>4113857
In games this usual was used to avoid a soft reset when RUN/STOP + Restore was pressed (maybe to avoid cheating and/or memory snooping?). So you had to turn the computer off and on for an actual restart (or when you have installed a reset button and/or Custom Cartridge with that functionality).

Some earlier games just went back to the title screen, while with later ones, such soft resets were just ignored/prevented.

>>4113914
different games had different sized boards based on how many mask ROMs, mappers, decoders, and region lockout chips were needed. it allows for flexibility.its a forward thinking design.

>>4113909
No, but it you want it translated into Neanderthal, you'll need to supply me with three medium sized rocks and some dry twigs.

The cartridges often consist of only a ROM chip but can just as easily, but not as cheaply, have more hardware.

Common additions are battery-backed SRAM, real-time clocks, graphics coprocessors. This is why cartridges have clock pins.

>>4104317
>chip select

They used that to implement the Sonic & Knuckles Lock On feature. Depending on which addresses the game accesses, the cartridge hardware will select either the Sonic & Knuckles ROM chip or the locked-on cartridge's to return the data. It effectively maps the locked-on cartridge on the > 0x1FFFFF memory range.

>>4114126
chip select is used to control the tri-state buffers on the output of chips connected to the data bus. When enabled, the chip can drive the line to Vcc and ground, however when disabled, the output presents high impedance, effectively disconnecting the chip. This is necessary because the data bus is connected to many things, however only one device should have control of it at one time, otherwise you get conflicting logic levels.

>>4104298
>using less than half of the cartridge space
why make them so big then?

>>4113323
>I understand on a basic level how those circuits work
No. You do not. That's where you begin.

>>4107867
guess europeans are stupid too because the european NES literally looks the fucking same

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>>4113323
A lot of the parts of a microprocessor there are very repetitive.
Like how RAM will have multiple transistor capacitor combinations for each individual bit cell in an array and when you've got 1KiB of ram that's 1024 cells for example. Same goes for cache, and various levels of the schematics for shit like ALU/shift registers that cascade bits to calculate. It's basically all clever bits of circuit switching to produce the hardware for abstracted computational code.

See http://shirriff3.rssing.com/chan-8402241/all_p2.html
for parts of circuitry to get an idea.

And here's a textbook - ISBN 0131989243 - Digital Design. You can find a copy online or buy a used one for ~five bucks for hardcover, there's a fifth edition as well you could find. It'll walk you through binary, boolean logic, gates, combinatial logic, sequenctial circuit logic, registers and counters, memory and programmable logic, design at register level.

You can actually start reading that book without much in the way of math or physics really. If you care about how shit like electronics physically work any college textbook will have a section on electromagnetics that covers it to a sufficient degree. Though you'll need to have some of your maths down for integrating parts to understand how to reproduce the formulas.

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>>4104298
Since I found this a good explanation here is what
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Cartridge#Cartridge_boot-up
says:

>Cartridge boot-up
> The standard way of "hooking" software in the cartridge's ROM into the C64, is by way of pins 8 (/GAME) and 9 (/EXROM) in the expansion port: These are inputs, held high through pull-up resistors inside the C64. By connecting one or both of these lines to ground, the cartridge ROM gets mapped into the address space at certain regions (see Bankswitching). On power-up (or when reset) the C64 uses a KERNAL subroutine at 64770–64783/$FD02–FD0F to see if the address range 32772–32776/$8004–$8008 contains the "cartridge signature" (the text CBM80 in PETSCII code): If that is the case, the CPU takes an indirect jump through the pointer at 32768–32769/$8000–$8001; otherwise the C64 continues to boot up its built-in BASIC system.
> All these addresses are within area that is "covered" by cartridge ROM: The cartridge just needs to have the CBM80 signature and a pointer to the start address in its software at the right places to be "booted" on power-up.
> Besides the "cold start" vector at 32768–32769/$8000–$8001, there is an NMI vector at 32770–32771/$8002–$8003 — the C64 also checks for the presence of a cartridge during NMI's, e.g. caused by pressing the Restore key.

>(Ab)using the cartridge boot-up system
>By placing the CBM80 sequence and some pointers in RAM at the aforementioned addresses, it's possible to use the boot-up system to "divert" reset and NMI's to a specific address (so that a program in RAM just restarts if the user tries to reset the C64 or causes an NMI using the RESTORE key)

I guess with consoles it's pretty similar.

And here's a guide to make you own Cartridges (again for the C64). So this is pretty much how do you get programs (or games) onto the "microchip strips":
http://n2dvm.com/leif.html

>>4104523
The autism is strong in this one.

>>4104523
>Not quite. Before 1985, only arcade machines existed, which were exclusively manufactured by Atari


what the fuck are you saying

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>>4108215
>>4110287

arent back then there was no PC meme
computers were marketed by title "home computers"
later it became personal computer so you could sell more than one to each house

I should visit /vr/ more

>>4114126
pls give more details on sonic & knuckles lock on

>>4118642
it's nothing really special. I don't know the exact details, but it goes something like this:

Let's say the cart has 16 address pins and 8 data pins, meaning you supply it any 16-bit number (0x0000 - 0xFFFF) as an address and it gives you back the 8-bit number (0x00 - 0xFF) at that address.

On a normal cart, all of the address pins are connected to ROM chips on the cart. Suppose there are 2 ROM chips on a cart named ROM0 and ROM1, and each ROM chip had 15 address pins for a 15-bit address (0x0000 - 0x7FFF). How do you map the 16-bit address onto two chips with 15-bit address inputs?

Easy: run the bottom 15 address bits into both chips, and use the most significant bit (MSB, the 16th bit) to act as a chip select (CS) signal (most memory chips have chip select which electrically dis/connects the data pins) and route that signal to the ROM0 CS, and also through a NOT gate and into the ROM1 CS. Effectively this "maps" the two 15-bit address ROMs into the 16-bit address space memory map.

normal memory map:
0x0000 // ROM0 first address
0x7FFF // ROM0 last address
0x8000 // ROM1 first address
0xFFFF // ROM1 last address

For S&K, they essentially did the same thing, but exposed the address pins on top of the cart to allow other games to map parts of their ROM into the S&K cart's memory map. This allows the S&K cart to graft other cart's memory into it's own.

lock on memory map
0x0000 // S&K first address
0x7FFF // S&K last address
0x8000 // lock-on first address
0xFFFF // lock-on last address

I doubt any programming is accessed with the locked-on cart, but the level data and graphics can be accessed by the S&K ROM program no problem.

Remember, I don't know the specifics, and this is mostly conjecture, but it wouldn't have to be much more complicated. The address decoding and chip select logic would be more involved, but could prolly be handled by a single AND gate TTL package. If anyone else has concrete information, feel free to volunteer them.

>>4120575
correction: got the CS lines backwards. NOT MSB goes to ROM0 CS, and MSB goes to ROM1 CS.

Also, you could conceivably pull a game-genie and make a cart that patches the lock-on cart by intercepting specific memory addresses and injecting S&K data over lock-on data whenever needed, but the complexity for such a device would be much more involved. It would need a beefy address decoder, or something akin to a programmable NES memory mapper with relatively fine control over what addresses to intercept and what data is replaced. From a coolness perspective, you could do a lot with such a cart, but from an economic perspective, it would be quite expensive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt they took this approach.

>>4120575
Mostly conjecture and mostly wrong. This shit is well documented. Why didn't you just google for it and then post a link for the guy instead of posting a totally retarded blog?

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>>4121612
not really. i omitted decoder details, but the idea is more or less correct.

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>>4104523
well memed my friend good one

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>>4120575
The Knuckles cartridge maps both ROMs to the Genesis's 24-bit address space if it detects a locked-on cartridge physically. Then it reads the header to determine if it's Sonic 3, 2, 1, or some other game.

However, with Sonic 2, it has to patch the ROM to put Knuckles in game. It uses multiplexers to select the S&K chip or the Sonic 2 ROM patch chip with enable lines. Since Sonic 2 starts at 2MB in virtual memory, it uses bit-20 and bit-21 of the address lines in its selection process. There's also a bit of memory that's only on if the attached cart is Sonic 2. A logic gate is used to make sure that other games don't get patched. The muxing process is a bit complicated but that's basically it.

https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1514/how-exactly-does-sonic-knuckles-lock-on-technology-work

>>4121712
>>4120575
Can't find any specifics of the actual address mapping process in the cartridge but I think what you described is basically correct. Both ROM chips would be on the same bus and the address range would mux the chip enables. Then add logic for the physical detection of the cartridge.

>>4121756
given the nature of OPs post, I tried not to make it too complicated while giving a realistic example

>>4121763
Well I'm a computer engineer so I love this shit. Basically chose my profession to learn how old video game consoles work at the hardware level. Mostly deal with avionics software though.

>>4104568
Show me the posts

>>4107867
americans IS fucking stupid

read fucking book fool!

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>>4121812
>>4107867

>implying stupidity isn't a worldwide, human phenomenon

Get out of your bedroom and experience a little of the world, you goddamn shut-ins.

>>4121639
Yes, really. You don't even understand what you read. inb4 b-b-but i was right when i said chips run on electricity.

>>4122057
Fuck off

>>4122532
>assmad google powered expert is assmad
Again, why not just post that link so anon can read for himself. He'll guaranteed understand it better than you.