So SNES and NES sprites were limited to 16x16, except when they

Joining sprites together

>>3922314
SNES sprites were limited to 16x16?

>>3922314
From the dev manual:

Two different sized objects (nintendo's word for their sprite primitive) can appear on the same scanline. This is set by register $2101 OBJSEL bits 5-7. The choices are as follows:

000 = 8x8, 16x16
001 = 8x8, 32x32
010 = 8x8, 64x64
011 = 16x16, 32x32
100 = 16x16, 64x64
101 = 32x32, 64x64
110 = 16x32, 32x64 (undocumented)
111 = 16x32, 32x32 (undocumented)

Character data (nintendo's word for nxn pixel tiles) is organized and accessed in a special way. You see your own image, OP? Actually, when you use anything bigger than the 8x8 smallest unit, the PPU (nintendo's word for GPU) access memory in such a way as to grab, for instance, 2x2 8x8 pixel characters to form a 16x16 character.

Furthermore, as >>3922320 says, objects can be made to move in tandem. Mario, for instance, is something like 6 or so objects moving together in formation constantly.

File: Mega_Man_2_battle_Wily_Stage_1.png (3KB, 256x224px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 256x224px

The thing about game development is that a lot of the limitations can be cheated with clever tricks.

All those "big" sprites you see are actually things like multiple sprites put together, and sometimes as far as the system is concerned a lot of the "sprites" aren't truly sprites at all.

Do you remember this dragon from Mega Man 2? He's actually a background layer. A background image can be as relatively huge and complex as it needs to be compared to how the NES handles sprites. That's why the "real" background is just pitch black, incidentally; the dragon cannibalizes the background space, so the game can't render anything but himself on that layer.

As your picture clearly shows, sprites are joined together.

The Kirby shown in your OP image is comprised of four sprites.

>>3922369
Mega Man is also multiple sprites - head and body are two separate sprites which was used to allow the programmers to colour Mega Man with more than the 3 colour per sprite limit.

File: MM5.png (1MB, 1239x971px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1239x971px

What we commonly refer to as "tiles" these days are the actual sprite, and objects are groups of sprites.

People usually refer to MM as being "2 sprites", for the face, but it's usually around 8-9 depending on the frame.

>>3922369
>hat's why the "real" background is just pitch black, incidentally; the dragon cannibalizes the background space, so the game can't render anything but himself on that layer.

Why do you keep spreading this misinformation? There is nothing technically preventing them from having the bacgkround here. The problem is that movement of the boss is based on background movement, meaning that if they had anything, it'd move the same way as the boss. But pic related, the bottom of the half of the bg is PAL animated too which is pretty nice.

also
> aren't truly sprites at all.

That's not entirely true. In MegaMan games, background bosses always at least have one sprite. That is required to create a behaviour of some sort, to have hit detection, hp, etc
That sprite may very well be invisible in some cases, but it's there. Usually though they don't advantage of that to create independantly moving or animated parts. If for a BG boss the eyes blink, if the arms move by itself, etc than chances are those are sprites.
For instance, still in MM5, for Circring Q9 (wily stage 2 boss), the 2 doors on the side are sprite, and they're the one defining the hit detection, the HP, even the background movement. The shots fired by the boss are also sprites.

File: Mega Man 5 (USA)-0.png (5KB, 256x224px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 256x224px

>>3922693
Like I said, it's more like 8-9 sprites depending on which frame we're talking about.

> which was used to allow the programmers to colour Mega Man with more than the 3 colour per sprite limit.

That's another common thought, but it's more like the other way around. Unless you wanted him to 8x8 pixels max, MM HAD to be several sprites. Palette piece allocation (choosing which of the 4 parts of the current 16 colours palette to use) is sprite based, so every single 8*8 piece can use a different part of the current palette.

In other words, being able to use another palette for the face is more like a consequence of using several sprites. They didn't use several sprites "because" they needed to use other colours, they would have used several sprites in any case.

Pic related. Nothing preventing you to set another pal piece to each 8*8 sprite (see top of the helmet). Only issue here is that I set it to the 3rd and 4th pieces of the palettes, which in MM are commonly used for enemies, and change depending on what colour you want the enemies to be. In other words, in this case if enemies change colours, so will the top of the head.

>>3922314
Because underage can't into sprites?

>>3922696
Thanks for correcting me. I didn't fully understand how it worked, I was just explaining it the way it had been told to me.

File: 1491626952594.jpg (11KB, 318x313px) Image search: [Google]

11KB, 318x313px

>>3923474
Dude, this tripfag is an amateur with flawed understanding himself. Take anything he says with a grain of salt.

>>3922696
>What we commonly refer to as "tiles" these days are the actual sprite, and objects are groups of sprites.
You got it backwards. What you call sprites are what Nintendo calls objects, and what you call objects are informally called sprites (groups of objects are a software abstraction, not a hardware abstraction, and Nintendo doesn't have any say in what you call things in your code).

>Why do you keep spreading this misinformation?
He made a case for why the background couldn't do double duty as a backdrop and a boss. You say that's wrong, point out that it can be a boss and a bg, but conclude it's pointless. I think you just went around in a circle.

>That's not entirely true
You are confusing your definition of "sprite" here as meaning both the graphical primitive and the associated game entity. Game entities can exist with or without graphical output, and when drawn, can be realized in different ways. The poster you responded to points out that the dragon is drawn with a background primitive and not object primitives. He's not claiming the dragon has no state maintained by the game.

>>3922714
You really are clueless, aren't you? Poster was drawing attention to the fact that many objects can be overlain to give a sprite greater color depth than the a stock hardware primitive allows, not that you have to combine several (potentially different palette) objects to make a sprite of any practical interest.

Do us all a favor and turn off your trip. You aren't doing anyone any good, including yourself.

>>3923846
NESfag has a tendency to type much while saying little.

>>3923846
>You got it backwards

All I'm saying is these days anyone talking about a "sprite" refers to the entire construct.And in this case, how would they call an 8*8 or 16*16 part of that construct? A tile.
However as far as the NES is concerned there is no "tiles" for object graphics, only for background graphics, and the 8*8 parts are the sprites, period.

I'm just saying 1) saying "joining sprites together" like this thread has been all about isn't precise enough and 2) it's common to think that MegaMan himself is "two sprites", one for the head, one for the body, especially because there was an interviewer saying just that and that the dev answering didn't contredict him.

>He made a case for why the background couldn't do double duty as a backdrop and a boss.

Not exactly no. He said there COULDN'T be a background because the boss itself was "cannibalizing" the space. And I said, no, there can be a background, and the reason there isn't is because movement of the boss is based on moving the entire background of the boss area.

Also

>You got it backwards.
> What you call sprites are what Nintendo calls objects
>Game entities can exist with or without graphical output, and when drawn, can be realized in different ways.

You're the one being confused, or rather confusing (unlike you did to me, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, which you didn't for the sole reason that you were too happy to jump at a "trip"'s throat).
There isn't "objects" on one side and "game entities", whatever that means, on another side.

My point was, as far as MM is concerned which is the game we were talking about here, objects HAVE to be linked to a sprite pattern definition. There is a table (several but whatever) that goes "object id -> sprite pattern def address", meaning that if your object is #05 it's going to be check the 5th address of that table to get the address of the sprite pattern def and in turn, read that sprite pattern def to draw the sprites of the constructs.

>>3923846
>>3924668
(cont) In other words, you have to set something there.

I claimed there had to be a sprite because the behaviour was linked to the sprite, that was a shorcut I took I'll give you that, my point was at that the "behaviour" of the boss is set by the object's enemy handler, and that this object has to be linked to a sprite. Furthermore, as far as MM is concerned most of the times BG bosses use sprites to complete the visuals of the boss.

> not that you have to combine several (potentially different palette) objects to make a sprite of any practical interest.

When did I say that?

tl;dr
I had to spell it out with twice the words for you to understand what I was saying, while you were too eager to jump in and be condescendant while you're the one being confused with your "objects VS game entities" theory.

Also
>tripfag
>Do us all a favor and turn off your trip.

No such thing here as a tripfag, and the name will remain as long as it makes people like you cry.
Do you not realized what happened here? You saw someone posting with a name on 4chan, and you instantly starting reading the post with the subconcious idea that the post was retarded, to the point you were even reading things wrong or reading things that weren't there.

I keep the name to teach you to fight prejudices and because people getting mad over something so trivial as using a name on 4chan is just beyond me.

>>3924679
>using a name on 4chan
>Using a name on an anonymous imageboard for absolutely no reason

File: 1491340763323.png (29KB, 154x200px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 154x200px

>>3924668
>What we ... refer to as "tiles" ... are the actual sprite, and objects are groups of sprites.
>"sprite" refers to the entire construct.
>how would they call an 8*8 or 16*16 part of that construct? A tile.
>However as far as the NES is concerned there is no "tiles" for object graphics, only for background graphics, and the 8*8 parts are the sprites, period.

tiles -> sprite -> objects
no tiles for objects

Okaaaay, you see, when you make your own head canon vocabulary, it's easy to misunderstand technical things and say retarded shit.

Nintendo's technical words for the two PPU primitives are "object" and "background". Your word "tile" is not an adequate description of what is drawn because resources can be shared between both primitives. Specifically, the 8x8 or 16x16 pixel "characters" that define the shape of things can be shared. Your comment about there being "no tiles for objects, only for the graphics" (ignoring your contradiction) betrays your ignorance here of this fact. If you could put up with the limitations of the NES, that dragon could be displayed either with a background or with objects.

I agree (software) "sprite" is the standard name for something like a collection of (NES hardware) objects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(computer_graphics)

>"cannibalizing" the space
aka being used for the boss, not a normal level backdrop. I mean, any idiot can see that you can fill in the transparent parts of boss background graphic with a backdrop.

>objects HAVE to be linked to a sprite ... in Mega Man
Sure, whatever. A data structure you've identified in one game works that way. In general data structures controlling interactive elements of a level in a game (what I was calling game entities) don't need to be linked to any graphic primitive. For instance, a mid-level trigger that swaps out a palette (sound familiar?).

Oh yeah, beeteedubs, not everything in the world is Mega Man.

>>3924759
Not him, but it helps avoid confusion and eight people arguing with each other thinking that it's a one-on-one debate.

>>3924771
When I was saying "no tiles" I was trying to point out that as far as the NES is concerned one sprite is 8*8, and not the entire construct. MegaMan is height or nine 8*8 sprites, and I say this because it's a common misconception to think otherwise. Even after I was digging through the inside-outs of MM5, a friend wouldn't believe MM isn't "two sprites" because he read it an interview made by and with 2 MM devs.

If you don't explain this people will still believe that MegaMan is "two sprites" and that having a different sprite for the face is somehow a genius idea they had so they can use a different palette piece for it, when in fact, even if the palette was the same, the entire head would still be 4 sprites (albeit instead of 5), and you could still choose any palette piece you want for each sprite which is what I was trying to point out with the different coloured helmet.

>don't need to be linked to any graphic primitive. For instance, a mid-level trigger that swaps out a palette

Okay good point. I forgot about these things and was thinking of the bg bosses in MM.

>>3922314
>hurr durr I'm a retard

Fuck off, retard