Can someone aware of Sega in these periods tell me wether the

It wasn't great in Japan, flopped in America due to a number of factors, part of which was the Sega of America president at the time not wanting to localize any 2D games.

>>3601247
Wasn't Sony the one against 2D?

>>3601245
It was very popular in Japan from 1994 to 1998 (Dreamcast came out in 98 there), toe to toe with the Playstation and beating the N64.

Almost completely unknown in America due to high price, awful shit advertisement, too few games, crap 3d graphics, and no stores actually carrying the console. Some parents flat out refused to buy the console because of Sega shafting them beforehand by coming up with a new console every year.

It was semi-popular in Europe (especially in the UK) up until early 1997 when it started dying off due to lack of new games.

>>3601258
Sony of America was for sure, Japan didn't have the same bias (which is probably why the saturn did better their).

The saturn was an interesting bit of hardware, in many ways it's actually much more powerful than the ps1 but it's so overengineered and hard to program for that it became a moot point. It was certainly the best 2d system of the generation, with it's high resolution graphics and excellent sprite scaling. If you're interested definitely pick one up, it's easy to pirate games on and you will definitely like at least a few games on it.

Okay, so for some comparison, the saturn sold roughly 10 million units in japan alone by the end of it's lifespan, compare that to the wii u which has sold 13 million units worldwide. A generous estimate of the saturns lifetime sales puts it at 17 million units, so you can see it was very very successful in Japan but a flop worldwide.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Sega_Saturn

>>3601272
>Okay, so for some comparison, the saturn sold roughly 10 million units in japan alone by the end of it's lifespan,

No, it sold much less than 9 million globally. And out of that, 5.8 million was japan and about 3 million on the rest of the world (usa, Europe, australia, brazil, hong kong, korea).

It's was both SoJ & SoAs fault entirely. The marketing campaign for the Saturn in the USA was god tier, and look at the launch title games. There's no reason why it should've failed but it was largely due to the Sega CD & 32X. Plus not enough imported games from japan

>>3601282
The price didn't help, my older brother at the time literally went to buy a sega saturn but walked out with a ps1 because it was so much better value.

>>3601282
No Sakura Wars was fucking criminal.

>>3601245
>>3601245
Both are true. Except really the ps1 and n64 really didnt have anything to do with it.

>>3601290
There wasn't a market yet for weebs at the time.

>>3601245
Game library is great however it was only a moderate success in Japan which was bad for a company that's in the process of burning down like Sega and completely flopped in America after its first year.

i was 5 when it came out, but i imagine it being 400$ at release killed it

Sony fucked everyone that gen. But Sega (of Japan) did a good job lubing up its (and Sega of America's) butthole before the Sony Insertion

>N64's competence
lol

Strictly speaking on business, n64 wasn't a big player then either. Basically America propped it up with like 70% of console sales and it was a ghost town everywhere else.

Burgercentrism tho

>>3601245
The japanese saturn was absolutely great. Powerful 2D machine with lots of exciting games coming out. Great controller, awesome sound chip too. Now sony did what they always do they made belive that their machine was better. People are gullible. So back then you had people running around repeating like parrots how the playstation is better than the saturn. Nothing ever really changes. Sony's brainwashing department killed it.

>>3601307
Oh, and I can't be bothered to check, but I bet the n64's attach rate was fucking abysmal

>What you don't want a copy of Snowboard Kids for $89.99?

>>3601309
Console gamers really dont have any other option than to go sony. Nintendo go for the pre teen and nostalgia crowd. M$ dont really fill any gaps that sony dont and fuck themselves over. Least sony put out a bunch of exclusives that are sometimes worth it, and have all the third party supp. But than again sony are the big bad on 4chan and ninty are great for man children. Rip sega.

>>3601245
It was a flop that had tons of great niche-centric games.

>>3601368
>tfw always feel like big Nintendo fans are literal man children

Never got the Nintendo hype

Saturn is the only console I've never played on.

I thought about buying one but they average like 60-70 britbux now and I'm not paying that. Fucking collectors and sellers going insane with the prices these days

I used to fall over master systems/mega drives/snes/nes for like £2-5 each 10 years ago now they are minimum £30 often 60 and up

If I had seen this price hike coming I would be rich right about now

>>3601380
>if i had seen this price hike coming i would be rich by now
And so is the basis of economics

>>3601380
It's worth buying a japanese saturn for the fighting games which are very cheap by the way.

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>>3601245
Saturn was a poorly-designed chipset, with lacking software releases for the western market, that cost too much money to manufacture and effectively killed Sega as a hardware company.

>>3601376
>>3601368

Using the "nintendo is for kids/manchildren" argument only makes you look like an edgy "mature games for mature gamers such as myself" teen.

We can't win. Vidya in general is for manchildren unless it's really popular stuff like Sports games or pokemon go or whatever thing normies are into atm.

>>3601245
>was it a flop
It was for sure here in the US. I was around but pretty young during the 5th gen and still playing my Genesis at the time. Would play the shit out of the Saturn at store displays. Only knew one guy that actually owned one during its lifespan tho if that tells you anything. Every one else either had a ps1 or the 64.

>actually pretty good?
Picked up a Saturn in '00 from funcoland for cheap and was blown away. It's not news now, but the Saturn was severely underrated back then. Most everyone just assumed it was shit. I went a good 8 years or so buying and playing dirt cheap Saturn games before prices went pants on head retarded. I've moved onto bigger more expensive games so I sold all my Saturn stuff early this year but it will always be my all time favorite gaming system.

>>3601245
saturn did well in japan, but failed elsewhere because of a surprise release/weak start, that left the system with something like 20 games available for an entire year before more started releasing. also some retailers sega's shit from shelves, in protest, of their horrid release failure and refused to carry dreamcast, etc afterwards.

>>3601247
>flopped in America due to a number of factors, part of which was the Sega of America president at the time not wanting to localize any 2D games.
source or it never happened, lying faggot

>>3601245

it did okay in Japan but was a massive failure elsewhere.

It had some nice games that are still worth playing today. But only a handful. Panzer Dragoon 1 and 2 are great.

But most of the games are not worth playing. They are mostly in Japanese, and mostly shallow turn based J-rpgs.

>>3601307
>But Sega (of Japan) did a good job lubing up its (and Sega of America's)
>(and Sega of America's)
lol.
As far as SoJ were concerned, SoA could let themselves go to hell.

>n64 wasn't a big player then either. Basically America propped it up with like 70% of console sales and it was a ghost town everywhere else.

So you're saying the N64's performance on her vs. the world is pretty much a geographical reverse of the Saturn's performance in Japan vs. the world? Ok.

>>3601309
>So back then you had people running around repeating like parrots how the playstation is better than the saturn.

The playstation was way better than the Saturn in every single area though, except one or two small things, like the lack of dedicated 2d background hardware. And maybe the memory expansion.

>>3601245
Saturn got destroyed because everyone was still happy with Genesis and SNES, and it cost too much. It was a powerful console for only like 6 months. Then it got its ass destroyed.

>>3601285

This. Hell, the first E3 was won by sony by them just saying the price of their system compared to the Saturn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExaAYIKsDBI

The Saturn cost way too much to make compared to the more streamlined and cheaper Playstation. That, combined with botched marketing for retailers and a software lineup that lacked a lot of amazing japanese titles, sealed Saturn's fate.

>>3601852

Not to mention retailers were much more eager to sell Playstations for that same reason. If they thought that the customer was not a fan of Saturn's price, then they were more than happy to turn them to the Playstation's direction.

>>3601853
Retailers were not eager to sell the Saturn because the thought Sega was playing favourites with other retailers who were part of the early launch. They thought that Sega prioritized those other retailers, and in return they stopped carrying Sega stuff completely.

>>3601264

The Saturn came out after Sega released the short-lived 32X and Sega CD addons.

You know, addons that claimed to bring 32-bit gaming to your Genesis.

They released the Saturn literally a year after the 32X. That is literally the definition of burning your customers.

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I opted for the US Sony Playstation on launch because it had Toshinden, whch in retrospect didn't hold up well over the years. However, after beating FF7 and FFT, the system needed to be flipped in all strange angles in order to work. With that frustration, coupled with working my first job which gave me income I never had before, I opted for a cheap used Saturn opposed to a new working Playstation. I was wise to get a switch on the side to swap regions immediately, as almost all Saturn owners at the time knew there were many unreleased games in the US (and most had to learn about importing). Also to my benefit a lot of Saturn games were on clearance, so prices were low.

There is truth to all the stories you hear with Sony's aggressive pricing, Sega's poor decision to surprise launch, angered retailers, add-on fatigue by consumers, and poor management by Sega all contributing to the demise of the system I just felt it was the most bang for the buck at the time and lapped up all the bargain titles. So it was a flop to others, and wonderful boon to me as I've still got over 200 games for the system.

It also helped I was learning Japanese at the time. I had friends that also had Saturn, Playstation, N64, GB/GBC, etc. At the time, we would all meet up every two weeks and show off the newest stuff. Like the 16-bit (Gen/SNES/PCE) days before, we all knew "to play the best, we just have to own them all, but we are all limited by resources." With the Saturn's strength in arcade-styled games it was most easy to show off when we all can enjoy RPGs on our own time. It also helped a couple worked at the local arcades, since none of us had the money to own a NeoGeo (but one of us did have a Jaguar briefly). We played all the newest and best stuff from US and Japan. So personally, it was a wonderful time to be playing games with friends.

tl;dr = it may be a flop commercially in the US, but it was a great system to play games on even in its day

>>3601626
>nintendo is for kids/manchildren

It kinda is though, every system theres a main mario/zelda/etc game with a bunch of other off shoots like mario kart/smash/sports/etc.

They have the market cornered on that and have great mascots, what exactly is stopping them from making their own in house or 3rd party exclusive(semi 1 year nowadays) game? Why dont they try to make a game like halo/cod/gow/mgs/uncharte/etc.

They really close themselves off and are functioning a bit like sega did.

>>3601928
Thing is that nintendo consoles are always odd ones, so porting games has always been a hassle, which makes the big mainstream franchises drop it. This is why 3rd party support is always shaky on their consoles. The Gamecube did have good 3rd party support and had mainstream M rated games and shooters.

Nintendo does have shitloads of 3rd party exclusives, but they're all handheld because that's the safe option. They do rely a lot on their iconic IPs, but they've been dropping them little by little soley because they don't know what to fo with them. They essentially struggle not to be "That guy" while always being "That guy".

>>3601795
There is nothing better about the playstation. Even without the added memory, the saturn fighters had way more animation frames in all those capcom & snk fighters. The saturn had the better soundchip too. Now 3D is debatable. If you ask me they both sucked ass in that regard, even for back in the day.

>>3602016
Saturn's got 0.5 MB extra RAM and a background generator, but that's really it.

Saturn's sprite engine chip is inefficient and slow (it needs like fucking 8 cycles to do transparency) and it is hooked up less memory bandwidth. The sound chip has more channels but it doesn't support ADPCM compression, which is pretty stupid. PS1 can squeeze the equivalent of 2 MB of sound into 512 KB of sound RAM while Saturn has the same amount of sound RAM without the compression.

>>3602016
>There is nothing better about the playstation.

It had a gpu with 4x the fillrate and a way simpler instruction set (proper shading, proper transparency, proper triangles, can do all of that in every resolution), an onboard video decoder co-processor, a dedicated, easy to use vector coprocessor. The sound chip supported BRR compression in hardware which gave it a huge increase in the amount of samples it can hold (over 4x). It had cart ports that actually worked, and it also had faster memory. It also had a variable size framebuffer which allowed games to use more/better textures.

What the Saturn did better was:
- a 2d background tilemapper with its own 512k ram. Since it used tilemaps, the 512k was actually quite a large amount of space. However its usage was extremely situational, mostly usable for HUDs and 2d games.
- more powerful for general purpose computing, IF you managed to optimize code for its 2x SH2s and DSP. Which was impossible in a game. The DSP was almost never used and the 2nd SH2 was delegated to do menial tasks like ADPCM compression for background audio.
- sound chip had extremely powerful FM features (that nobody actually used).
- dedicated CD controller with 4x the buffer (128k vs 512k)
- cart port could take memory expansions, when the port worked.

>>3602021
>(it needs like fucking 8 cycles to do transparency)

In 8 cycles you could barely plot a pixel on either machine.
I think what you mean is that it took 6 times the fillrate to draw a transparent sprite... and it was not even properly transparent, for example it was opaque to any backgrounds.

Or you could make sprites be transparent to backgrounds, but then you couldn't get sprite-to-sprite transparency... nor a colour depth larger than 2000 colours, or more than 32 steps of gouraud shading (all of which had to be precomputed!).

It was completely idiotic, it was basically a SNES on steroids, not a 3d machine.

I wish they would've made that rumoured 3d add-on cart, and make the model 2 have it built-in.

>>3602050
Oh, and it had fuck all fillrate. Something like 7 or 8 mpixels.

It cost me about $450, but I was able to play next gen games about 4 months before the other systems hit the shelves. I ended up buying all the systems, but it was my favorite of all the systems. I don't think it took off because Sony had a huge marketing campaign and came out the door about $300.

>>3602056
VDP1 was like 28 MPixel/s in the best case scenario and 3-4 MPixel/s in the worst case scenario. Both peak rates I'm talking here. Real-world would be even lower of course.

PS1's peak fill rate is 33 MPixel/s peak in all scenarios (in rectangle mode which is basically blitting it is 66 MPixel/s)

N64's peak fill rate is 62.5 MPixel/s all features on except mipmaps/trilinear/proper fog alpha (if you turn those on its 31.25 MPixel/s). If you turn on the blitting mode which pretty sure nobody ever did it is 250 MPixel/s.

Lucky Saturn has VDP2.

Why is it that /vr/ is much more picky and specific about console hardware than /v/?

>>3602067
>VDP1 was like 28 MPixel/s in the best case scenario

Wrong. The manuals state 24 million pixels per sec, but in real life it had way less.

In a tutorial they gave the figure 302 cycles to draw a 8x8 textured polygon. Since the chip runs at 28,6364MHz, this gives us 94822 8x8 textured polygons per second... 94800 * 8 * 8 = 6068641 pixels per second (6.07MPixel/s) in real life.

For gouraud shaded polygons, it was worse, 530 cycles for a 8x8 poly, giving you 54k polys or 3.45 MPixel/s (assuming 8x8 size for each poly).

The actual formula is 70 + (x*y*3) + (y*5) for a textured poly and 302 + (x*y*3) + (y*5) for a gouraud shaded textured poly.

Assuming you worked with 504x255 sprites, the largest you could draw, you got a peak 9.514 MPixel/s for textured (but not shaded) polygons.
And if we assume that using nontextured parts removed one VRAM lookup per pixel (changing x*y*3 to x*y*2), and use the same 504x255 sprite size, we get a peak of 14.213 MPixel/s. (plus you save on texture space as well)

This is all on top of the million hoops and jumps you have to get through to do shading or transparency.

>>3602137
>In a tutorial they gave the figure 302 cycles to draw a 8x8 textured polygon

That would be based on real-world figures. I was talking about peaks which are obviously vastly higher.

>>3602156
It is based on how many cycles the chip needs to plot a pixel, and it is just an approximation too. I'm not sure how peaks would be higher, care to explain?

My jap saturn bought early in 95 still works today, its built like a tank. My psx crapped out by the end of 95 and would only continue reading discs when turned upside down. Apart from the whole 3D performance debate, in terms of built quality the saturn wins hands down.

>>3602191
I'm just guessing those cycles were determined from a software test, so there are a whole range of possible factors affecting speed.

For example, was the CPU code in assembly or C? What bit depth were the textures? etc

>>3602217
Just following on from this. I can tell you what's funny though. The content of these articles.

http://segaretro.org/VDP1_(Saturn)
http://segaretro.org/VDP2_32-bit_background_and_scroll_plane_video_display_processor

The compilations of features and stuff is really good, but my god the editorializing and wild assumptions in the paragraphs.

>>3601272
>the saturn sold roughly 10 million units in japan alone by the end of it's lifespan
The source for this number is this shitty web 1.0 page which belongs to Geocities: http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/SATPScompare.htm

I guess it's simply an error. Here's what other sources say:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Saturn —9.26 mln worldwide (source: some printed book)
http://sega.wikia.com/wiki/Sega_Saturn —9.5 mln worldwide
http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/Hardware/JP/ —8.82 mln worldwide, 5.80 mln in Japan

>>3602217
>I'm just guessing those cycles were determined from a software test, so there are a whole range of possible factors affecting speed.

No, they were determined from how the hardware works. How many cycles it needs to read a draw command, read a gouraud shading table, set up processing, then processing a pixel. In fact the (x*y*3) figure is there for reading/processing/writing each pixel of a texture, and the (y*5) is a rough approximate for the DRAM cycle delays.

>For example, was the CPU code in assembly or C?

Irrelevant since all of these figures are on the VDP1 side. Note that we are counting MPixels, ie. the maximum amount of pixels the video chip can draw, NOT the amount of 3d polygons the system can transform and light.

>What bit depth were the textures? etc

That is a fair question, since the formula is for 1 pixel. However the chip uses 16-bit memory so it can read and write 1 pixel per cycle even if the system is set to use 15-bit RGB pixels. Actually I'd assume that using CLUTs would reduce speeds even further since then you need 1 more vram read cycle.

If anything, I'd say the figures I provided are peak values with real-life figures being even lower...

>>3602224
Sonic Retro is full of bullshit, news to exactly no one.

I liked Sonic R

>>3602297
Not something you need to hide. The graphics were done well for a saturn game.

>>3601245
It pretty much flopped but did have quite a few good games. A lot were jap only. So unplayable because there might be a few bits of moon and that gives most younglings the vapors.

I have only played one saturn when they were relevant. But I have never seen a TG16 IRL outside of a store display at a Fred Meyer. So maybe it sold better than some.

>>3602224
That is some of the worst writing I've ever seen.

>>3602208
Oh yeah, the saturn is an excellent piece of hardware, the cd drive is actually leaps and bounds better in reliability than almost any other console of the time, even the dreamcast.

>>3601924
Now im gonna play cotton. Thank you anon :3

>>3601245

Flopped. It was kinda hype at first and had some cool games but it got overshadowed early in its lifespan by n64 and ps1. Also I think people in general were feeling "sega fatigue" from all the shit sega kept releasing so it didn't make as big of a splash as it should have. They would make the same mistake with the dreamcast a few years later.

>>3603153
Nah, the Dreamcast was as flawlessly executed as possible - other than the lack of DVD drive. But they ran out of cash a year into it, and had to quit.

>>3603168
>the Dreamcast was as flawlessly executed as possible

aside from the shitty controller, loud overheating units, VMUs with 5 minute battery life, disks that get ruined by the tiniest scratch, completely broken copy protection and a rushed sega QA process resulting in buggy games then sure

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>>3603172
>execution = aftereffect

Anyone have the vr saturn games list? Thanks.

>>3601245
commercially it was, not a flop, but definately lost to the playstation and the n64.

i played it for about an hour total, it's about equal in power to the playstation, but it's library had less of a 3d bend to it than the other two systems.

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Remember walking into best buy during 1996 christmas season to pick out a new system. Coming from NES I remember being blown away by all 3 of the demo displays.

Playstation had Crash bandicoot on demo, N64 had mario and Saturn had Nights running. Gave each one a play and had the most fun with Nights.

Was definitely not disappointed with going with saturn and had tons of fun with mine through the years. Can't say the same for my best friend who got a jaguar that same christmas.

Where's a good place to get Saturn ISO's?

TheIsoZone seems to have the best collection but their download speed is 50 kb/s. Emuparadise is fast but I don't know which rips they are.

Man, I wish the rom depot was still around...

>>3601245
The Saturn's library was mostly consisted of arcade ports. In Japan, arcades were still popular so it did well there but the US had lost interest in those type of games by then. US people just wanted to play stuff like Madden and NBA games.

It's a testament to developers that they managed to produce so many amazing games with such a clusterfuck of hardware.

Great library, and a lot of the titles have aged a lot better than their competition on PS and N64.

>>3602103
The bit wars never died here

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>>3605121
>not a flop
saturn killed sega as a hardware company

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>>3605216
>In Japan, arcades were still popular
Saturn have only four games that have sold more one million copies

>>3601245
Poor console. No important person will remember the shitty games of the saturn thanks to the base final fantasy 7-8-9, Ocarina of time, Super mario 64 and metal gear.
Hahah

>>3605304
Do you only enjoy games that are validated through others? That's shows a real lack of self confidence, do you lack character?

Why can't they just use a disc of Panzer Dragoon Saga to get the source code? I don't understand. Sorry if this is a dumb quesiton.

>>3605346
You seem confused about the definition of "source code".

>>3605346
You can't "extract" source code from a game the same way you can't extract eggs from a cake. Even if you could it would be a colossal mess of garbage and assembly code that could take several years to interpret.

>>3605304
>Ocarina of time, Super mario 64
Kiddie firstparty shit.
>final fantasy 7-8
>metal gear
Oh, PC multiplats. Cool, I guess.

>>3605354
We're getting there.
http://www.livescience.com/49610-scientists-unboil-egg.html

>>3605370
So that guy from Earthbound wasn't full of shit.

>>3605365
>Kiddie firstparty shit.
It's 2016, we're all grown up. You can stop calling them that now, we won't judge anon.

>>3605354
>several years
For you maybe. Other people have managed quite well.

>>3601245
>forced early launch for the console in the US
>pretty much every great Japanese/2D game wasn't released here
>hard to develop for
>less affordable than the PS1
>advertising was very awkward and all over the place in the US

saturn has powerslave so it's goat

>wether the Saturn was a flop or actually pretty good?

It was a great console but a commercial flop.