Since Smash Bros. is to checkers as Street Fighter is to chess,

Marvel vs. Capcom, I guess.

>>3538568
That's a ridiculous analogy.

>>3538568
virtual fighter

>Go is an intuitive game where even pros have problems defining an objective logic to win the game.
>Retards think that go is the ultimate intellectual game because computers don't have intuition.

>>3538629
If computers are as shit as playing Go as they are playing Chess they might have a point.

>>3538568
> Go
> A game huge in Japan but virtually unknown in the rest of the world
> Allegedly it's super deep but looks like overblown Othello
Virtua Fighter for sure

>>3538825
What is the Othello of fighting games?

>>3538828

Fatal Fury

>>3538828
Mortal Kombat

>>3538825
>A game huge in Japan
China.

>>3538568
Tekken is the Go in this analogy i think.

>>3538629
>>3538632
Computers have already solved Go.
The top human Go player was beaten by a CPU player earlier this year.

>>3538984
He won more rounds than the AI, though...

>>3538984
They haven't solved Go. They've just reached the point of being better than the best humans. "Solved" actually means that the computer can always make the optimal move every time, because it knows every possible end game.

>>3538984
Have computers solved Battletoads yet? I think we're still not there

>>3538860
Not sure about China, but are you trying to deny Go is big in Japan too? It's huge there, with games broadcast on national TV.

>>3538828
Nude Othello: DoA
Tic Tac Toe: Yie Ar Kung-Fu
Amiga Tic Tac Toe: Pit Fighter

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Guilty Gear or Blazblue

>>3539129
The first GG was a broken mess.

>>3539129
I don't know man. To me GG has always seemed nothing more than Darkstalkers meets animu and heavy metal. To say that it's better than SF or KoF is a bit of an overstatement IMO.

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>>3539171
>Darkstalkers meets animu and heavy metal

I'm not sure how its quality is being overstated when this is basically the best combination you could possibly ask for.

>>3539196
Style over actually introducing much new, except for tons of overcomplicated gimmicks like "time bomb" attacks and shit like that. Other trademark crazy bullshit like "what if we took this guy and he's actually a totally different creature when he jumps" and "there's this girl who has 3 modes and some of them she loses health".

To me it has always been a bit too weeb with its over-the-top personalities, but more than that just too ridiculous and gimmicky to be taken seriously. If you take SNK, there's a ton of shit they straight off ripped from Capcom in their games. But behind this they've actually managed to make some substantial additions, and in result KoF has always been a low-key amazing game. I can't say I felt this playing GG or Blazblue or how many other fighters ArcSys had created.

>>3538592
Neither is harder. They are both-difficult-elegant games. There are more possible positions in Chess than in Checkers.

Checkers has simpler opening moves and Chess as simpler ending moves.

Dead or Alive, there's a shit tonne of counters. It's a game easy to learn hard to master. I say that's more like Go.

Sorry it didn't stay that way, but I still love it.

>>3538825
Virtua Fighter is the chess of fighting games, in that it's "that one really deep game" for purposes of discussion but I don't think anybody talking about it actually plays it.

>>3539309
you're overthinking

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>>3539908
I played it with a friend and the game was pretty good. But the truth is, it's closer to Tekken/DoA than one would imagine. Which is to be expected, since Tekken was made by one of VFs creators who left the company shortly after the first or second installment IIRC. That said, it's not as juggle-heavy, and a bit more realistic, with actually interesting fighting styles like Akira's Bajiquan or Kage-Maru's Jūjutsu.

But I really doubt it's actually like chess… Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never seen it. I enjoy watching VF matches, if only for good graphics and cool fighting styles. I know how SF or KoF can be like chess—with tools like frametraps, mixups, crossups, option selects, ambiguous setups, footsies, priorities and so on. VF I'm not so sure about.

>>3538993
This. Computers are shit at playing mental games like Chess and Go. Playing "well" for them is just running though every possible move and then picking the statistically best one. Even when they are difficult to beat it's a hollow experience.

>>3538568
Comparing Real time to Turn based games has always been stupid.
Completely non transferable skill sets

>>3540194
>Playing "well" for them is just running though every possible move
Not even close to possible.

>>3540372
Not completely out of question. SF is about reading and predicting your opponent more than anything else. It's also about keeping yourself safe from the opponent, not falling for his game. Chess is similar to this in a way.

While SF is of course a real time game, most of the stuff in it is not done on reaction. In fact, human reaction is pretty slow—especially to something they don't expect. So it's more about prediction and knowing both your and your opponent's options. Which is pretty similar to how you watch for potential moves in chess.

>>3539926
muh Virtua Fighter

sadmeme.jpg

>>3540398
Brute forcing possibilities is how all AI plays games like that.

It's incredible that this thread has managed to contain so much misinformation in such a short amount of time.

- OP's analogy is incomprehensible. Should be SSB is to SF as checkers is to chess.
- Go is not an intuitive game, by and large. A huge part of it is reading, which is determining what lines of play are likely if you play a given move.
- Go is "big" in Japan, China, and Korea, but it's big like chess is big: Everyone knows what it is but few people actually play it.
- Go has not been solved and, yes, while the best player in the world is an AI now that is not what solving a game means. When a game is solved, that means that the game can be played perfectly from an arbitrary position. We are very far from that point on Go.
- Computers don't play Go and Chess by analyzing every possible move. The common time constraints in both games and the limits of current technology make that impossible. Go especially has so many possible board positions that it would take the computer days to play the opening.

>>3540662
For reference, the last I checked Go has been solved for a 5x5 board and the standard board size is 19x19. Again, long way to go.

>>3540662
>It's incredible that this thread has managed to contain so much misinformation in such a short amount of time.
Maybe because
>Everyone knows what it is but few people actually play it.

>>3540662
>- Computers don't play Go and Chess by analyzing every possible move

Don't know about Go, but can confirm that's how Chess AI works.

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The Pente of fighters.

>>3540753
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#Combinatorics_of_chess_and_chess_puzzles

Computer chess, like human chess, works by aggressively pruning the game tree and examining only a tiny fraction of legal moves. This works because most legal moves are obviously stupid.

>>3539171

The difference is, guilty gear is still good, Xrd had a revolutionary new graphics system, great gameplay, And tons of polish
while Street Fighter 5 released in alpha stage and still is barely finished, And it's made cheaply and looks like crap

>>3540841
Yes exactly. I didn't mean to imply that the computer tries to calculate what a Rook could do if it weren't still stuck behind a pawn. Max of 16 pieces that all have limited movement isn't actually a ton to calculate.

>>3540858
"Still" good? We're on a retro board here, latest games don't matter. There's still big following for SSFIIT, smaller one for SFIII3S but it exists. Same for CvS2. They remain competitive game staples, especially with Fightcade/GGPO. Tournaments are held still, and there are books written about SSFIIT.

If you hop on to the latest game the minute it comes out, you miss out on A LOT of golden age fighting games.

As for SFV, I agree it was rushed and personally I don't feel there was THAT big of a need for it to release so early. But fighters don't change much, if at all. SFV is largely the same game as SFIII–IV, GGXrd is largely the same as the previous GG installments, so my point still stands. I've mentioned all of the things me and other people dislike about it: it's too weeb, too much accent on style and too close to Darkstalkers/MvC to be taken seriously. People who stuck with Street Fighter from the '90s still stick to it for a reason. And what media says means absolutely nothing today, look at the Last of Us for example.

> Xrd had a revolutionary new graphics system
Bias. Objectively, it hasn't yet influenced any other companies to do the same, so it's not revolutionary in any way. Innovative—yes, but to each his own, personally I don't like it even more than I didn't like the previous sprites. It just looks weird, like those 3D anime series. They try to emulate traditional animation techniques to a T, and it produces some weird combination, almost similar to uncanny valley. IMO, they should either go with full 3D or full 2D. Or vector.

>>3540959
>We're on a retro board here, latest games don't matter.

Sure they matter, they're just not what this board is here to talk about.

>>3540862
No, you're still missing the point here. The AI knows, like humans, that certain moves are fundamentally worse than others and doesn't try them; I'm not talking about moves that are illegal. This pruning eliminates a lot of possible moves in chess and the VAST majority of possible moves in go.

An extreme example of this is playing on the 1-1 point. There are only a few times in go where this is ever not a totally worthless move, so Go AIs won't even check it most of the time. This eliminates four moves every move which is like 800 possibilities that the AI isn't checking every game. The AI that is currently the champion AI also uses human data to a certain extent to determine likely lines of play because Go is too open-ended in terms of the number of possibilities to actually bruteforce move possibilities at any point in the game.

>>3540959

Well, i think guilty gear is great because it continued and expanded on the Darkstalkers/MvC style, while those games pretty much died out.

Darkstalkers feels like a prototype for guilty gear almost, guilty gear has way more characters, more systems like roman cancel etc.

Marvel vs Capcom kinda jumped the shark with marvel 3, and that series is dead. Guilty Gear lives on as the best airdasher game out there.

And i don't just mean guilty gear xrd. But also GG Accent Core, which i think is the best airdasher game ever made.

>>3541020
>Marvel vs Capcom kinda jumped the shark with marvel 3
How so? And once again, you call series "dead" when every game is mostly the same anyway. You're implying that once the new game comes out, the older one completely sinks into oblivion.
This is true only in 2 cases:
1) you're a professional competitor, i.e. you make money from your hobby and play games that pay more;
2) you're simply jumping hype trains for games and don't really care about the gameplay. Which can be a case for GG because it's mainly a weeb game.

Otherwise, there are still tons of players for older games from Garou to SFIII3S online with strong community. Ongoing popularity even leads to re-releases and updates like KoF'98UM and 2002UM.

> more systems like roman cancel etc.
It just adds even more accent on combos, which has been a pretty cancerous trend in 2D fighters for a long time now. It doesn't add to or even take away from the tactics. That's the autistic ArcSys bullshit I referred to. SF never went this road, keeping its accent on mind games. Even if you manage to score a big combo, the damage gets lower with every hit.

Good lord, this thread is filled with literal imbeciles.

>>3538568
Terrible analogy, but
Virtua Fighter

god

I liked smash over street fighter, MK, and the others because your character is free to go in whatever direction, and explore, like a platformer.
You aren't locked in.

It's why I prefer games like Mario and Zelda to games like Final Fantasy and Pokemon.

And I prefer puzzle games like Portal or Donkey Kong (GB) to Tetris (although I like tetris)


People sperg about difficulty but really it's about the ease of the control itself: you are more free in Smash than in those other fighters.

>>3541521
Wow dude, great argument. I prefer Mario to sports games, because in Mario you can jump and explore. They don't let you do that in NBA. I tried, but the referee stopped me.

Smash gives you very few tools to work with. Normal 2D fighters simply give you by far more of these tools and high-low blocking. They simply focus entirely on fighting rather than on platforming. That's about it.

>>3541175
well, it is a fighting game thread

>>3541562
nothing you said I disagree with

you realize that right

>>3540995
No, we're talking about the same thing. That's exactly what I said with a lot less words originally. >>3540194

>>3541562
i'm not going to argue that smash is more complex than street fighter, because it's not, but i do want to point out that you're underrating smash's strategic depth. more movement options: more footsies decisions, that's a given. the ledge system opens up a unique form of okizeme/corner pressure type situations, and the game also has more typical knockdown situations. because of the freedom of movement, tech chases are very much a thing.
damage is different, since you only die when you go off screen rather than dying when you take a fixed amount of damage. you can kill someone at full health if you're at the right place at the right time, or you can survive with damage that should have killed you twice over. damage also affects your knockback when you're hit, so combo followups change depending on percent.
blocking is different like you said, there is no high low. however, if you are able to get a decent blockstring going you can get the shield small enough to hit them anyway, or you can get it to break, which causes a dizzy that can usually be converted into a kill. the block stun in ssb64 is nuts, so shield breaks happen much more often than in the other games and there are real frame traps.
unique to the series is directional influence, you can alter your trajectory when hit. this means every hit is an opportunity for a mixup, since combos are possible to escape, but the attacker can anticipate it. this applies less to ssb64 since the hitstun is so much longer and there are only specific times when it can be input, and even then it doesn't change where you go that much.
street fighter is still more complex in my opinion because of the combo system, frame data mattering much more, having waaaayyyy more attack options, special inputs, and the meter system. it's interesting that having less space to move around actually makes the game more complex. going back to op's analogy i agree that smash is checkers, but i think sf is closer to go than it is to chess.

>>3538825
Othello is a retarded version of go kys pls.

Buncha fuckin nerds