so can someone tell me what the difference is between Quake 3

Aren't they basically the same thing now, except Q3 has more compatibility with computers due to ioq3?

>>2859301
Quake Live is multiplayer only

>>2859301
Eh, Quake Live does have some changes. Mostly for the worse. Thanks to the magic of open source all the quality of life improvements can be experienced in Q3, so fuck it.

>>2859304
I only ever played it once and that was during the free to play time, but it did have bots for offline play. I can't imagine the bots are gone now. If QL is multi only then so is Quake 3 for having deathmatch as it's single player mode.

I play both basically every day. The short version is that Quake 3 is better but Quake Live has all the players.

In general, Quake Live is just fine for VQ3 since the more unfortunate changes have really been reeled back and the HMG is a neutral change. I find myself playing on QL more simply because finding a game there is so much easier.

It's nice when I can find a game on Q3, though. It's definitely still a better client. I live in Japan now though so this almost never happens.

>>2862025
>Japan

Do you have to play with Australians and other Oceanians? I imagine FPS shooter scene isn't a thing in East Asia.

>>2861783
>Thanks to the magic of open source all the quality of life improvements can be experienced in Q3, so fuck it.
ql is closed source. There isn't any good source port for quake 3 besides ioq3 and cnq3 and those have a fraction of the improvements ql does.

Quake Live has no blood
Q3 is better
[/thread]

>>2864531
South Korea has a somewhat active CA scene. They play pretty much every day but only during peak hours. They also stream on Twitch, or at least they used to. Most of the guys are alright, but I'm forced to play on a laptop so I can't exactly get a great reading of their skill.

I like playing CTF but there's basically no chance of finding a game here. My ping to Australia (and, indeed, the west coast) is over 100ms so it isn't really worth playing.

>>2865273
This is actually one of the bigger issues concerning what client you should choose.

>>2865186
I'm not exactly sure what improvements you're referring to. If you're talking about the railgun doing 80 and the modified splash damage? Yes, while you can technically mod those things into Q3A, there's not really a demand to do so so you'll be playing with the old balance. The situation is the same with the maps; you COULD put Hidden Fortress into (PC) Q3A but it's not nearly as likely that you'll end up playing it.

The HUD is more configurable, however, and QL only has very light versions of CPMA and Defrag, not to mention any other mod you may find yourself wanting to play.

The big difference for me is the network code, and I am more consistently able to enjoy a game with an average ping on QL than I am on Q3A. This is highly variable, however, and some people report the opposite.

>>2865186
I never implied that QL was open source, don't be foolish. I quite obviously implied that being open source has meant Q3 technological oversights have been fixed.

>>2867246
>My ping is over 100ms so it isn't really worth playing.
300 ping is playable, 100 is good. Just because internet speeds are better in general now doesn't mean you get to go soft.

>>2867692
>300 ping is playable
You're going to get crushed if 300ms is all you can muster.

About 100ms is the limit for me.

>>2867692
This was once true to an extent but it's not true at all any more. Indeed, you'd be hard pressed to find active players who are willing to play cross-continent. Quake Live, despite being an online multiplayer game, remains highly regional because the rewards for a low latency are very real.

If you're a really old Quake player you probably, at some point, tolerated 300ms with a combination of truelightning and timenudge but that's only because other players were also in the 300ms range. If you're playing with 300ms now, it's like every player in the game is a LPB except you and the only thing you're ever really going to hit is rail and spam.

As I said, I live in Japan now but I was a regular (as in, every day) East Coast player from around 2011 onwards. My experience is that most players will not tolerate anything above 70 these days because the disadvantages, particularly for LG, are too noticeable. North American players often play on TX so that they can play with both coasts, and TX is popular specifically because everyone pings in the 50-80 range.

My ping to SK is anywhere from 35ms to 100ms. When it's in the low range, it's basically perfect, but as soon as it crosses that ~75ms threshold LG becomes nigh impossible.

It's my feeling these days that I'd rather play against bots than be the high ping player. I have a great level of respect for the (mostly Mexican and South American) players who I've seen play well with high ping, but I do not.

>>2868048
>lpb

I haven't heard that term for about 15 years.

In Australia, playing with 300 ping was near impossible in 1997, other than spamming the GL in deathmatch. You could not seriously duel or 4x4 with that kind of ping.

>>2868601
I think the idea of everyone in a game playing in the 300ms range outside of one or two players was mostly an American thing, at least in terms of Quake 3. Broadband was available (and affordable) in the late nineties in Canada.

>>2858882
Quake 3 has better netcode and is balanced appropriately, bot tier match, more map selections, more mods, fully configurable, no monthly cost, better light rendering. Quake Live is not those things. But it has improved mouse input.

>>2868048
>and the only thing you're ever really going to hit is rail and spam.
That's nonsensical bullshit. People didn't move slower because of latency. The catch is that you can get hit far quicker and easier by LPB opponents, but that's still basically no different than it used to be and it was more like people had an average of 100-200 and LPB's had 5-60.

>>2868601
I was the resident hpb in Quake 2.

Goddamn it's almost 20 years ago.

Quake Live has literally become a joke, a self-parody. It's complete horseshit in every way. Only a fool would be a fan of QL now.

The one awesome thing QL had that Q3A lacked was the third-party qlranks, and now that's been fucked out the window with everything else.

The reason for all this is that they couldn't leave the game alone. And the reason they didn't leave it alone is because they needed work to do to justify getting paid for it.

This latest €10 thing is just the final money-grab.

>>2868928
They don't move slower but the latency makes the game fail to accurately report their location to you, making them harder to hit. Conversely, the game doesn't accurately report your location to the server, meaning you become much easier (or in some cases much more difficult) to hit. I'm not really sure why I'm arguing about this, since it's clear to both of us that low ping confers an advantage. Now that low pings are far more commonplace, it's overwhelmingly unlikely that you'll see someone willing to give themselves the disadvantage of an extra 100ms of latency. You can play Quake with a ball mouse too, but you're still probably not going to do it.

Seriously, pop your head into a few servers and see how many examples you can find of players playing above the 100ms line at any position above the bottom of the leaderboard.

>>2868945
It's complete horeshit, except for the fact that it's fundamentally still Quake 3. Yes, they've made a lot of negative changes, but if you make a lot of small, negative changes to a nearly perfect game you're still left with a nearly perfect game.

People don't use the integrated item timers nor do they use loadouts, so the only changes you're really forced to swallow are the addition of the HMG and the changes to weapon damage. The new HUD and slight control variations can be removed in about ten seconds. Playing CTF, TDM or duel in QL is almost exactly the same as it is in Q3A, except with better map balance.

And yeah, the $10 was a stupid money grab -- especially since I was paying more than that a year as a subscriber -- but QL has been in the red for years and I'd rather have to pay for it than not have it at all.

>>2858882
I'm q2 kots 2000 and vortex king

>>2868990
Distance is a hard thing to cut down but I'm assuming you're at least doing your business at the local end to keep latency low? I'm using fq_codel and hover between 4-8ms on European servers while I see everyone else in the 30-100 range, not exactly same situation as yours but please do maintain your network properly

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>>2868990
>They don't move slower but the latency makes the game fail to accurately report their location to you
Barring handling packet loss with warping, not so much. The server sends you where they are on the server not on their client, so only your latency is a significant factor in that regard. Having a 100ms now is identical to having a 100ms then as far as hitting someone is concerned. If a player has 10ms ping or 300ms ping, moving around is moving around and your target gets hit all the same. They will respond faster though. Ping disadvantage is a thing, but it's about them being able be faster and more accurate not about you being less accurate than before. It doesn't magically shit on you differently when they have a lower ping, it just means what they do is better and increasing their

>You can play Quake with a ball mouse too, but you're still probably not going to do it.
In plenty of cases that's better than plenty of laser mice, so yeah actually there's little wrong with it. Ball mice aren't terrible or inaccurate or really in anyway unusable and some of the best players have used them and done better than most players can do with the best mice available. The biggest issues with ball mice is cleaning it more regularly and weight, the latter of which most players seemingly prefer anyway. Otherwise they're not bad at all.

>see how many examples you can find of players playing above the 100ms line at any position above the bottom of the leaderboard.
Constantly actually. That's not really a good argument for your position nor a defense for mine, it's not an isolated variable.

Also, it's even less of an issue where QL is concerned given how fucking terrible the netcode is in comparison. But yeah Q3 could (and does) benefit from better lag compensation, see unlagged servers for example.

>>2869760
The server sends you where they are on the server, but it's out of date so what looks like a shot that would hit locally won't actually hit since the server is the ultimate judge of what counts, not the client. You are essentially playing with outdated information, and that's going to affect your aim.

You're right in that a single screenshot from a game with a high average ping and only one player in the 300 range (a member of a team losing by 16 points who is out of last place by only a single point) does little to contribute to the argument, but the larger trend certainly does.

...Again, I have to reiterate how silly this argument is considering we both know that latency affects players negatively. It is especially silly to argue that it's not important -- and that 300ms is "playable" -- when we're talking about a community that still uses CRTs and WMOs.

I'm not really going to respond to the wheel mouse thing because... well, nobody uses a wheel mouse. They haven't for fifteen years. They are, at their best, quite a bit less precise than a decent optical mouse.

>>2869760
>how fucking terrible the netcode is in comparison

What is this meme? Where can I find an explanation for it?

>>2870220
There are people who are more technically qualified to answer this question so I'm just going to keep it as simple as I can to avoid being incorrect.

Quake 3's netcode was and is better at accommodating players with high (>100) ping. QL works excellent for low ping players but rather poorly for everyone else. This was something of a deliberate design decision considering the trend in internet technology in general has changed drastically since Quake 3 was released.

It doesn't have "shit netcode", though, and it works flawlessly provided you have a low enough ping. The irony about this -- and most other discussions concerning QL -- is that virtually all of the people who actually PLAY Quake are currently doing so on QL. A lot of people bitch about it on forums, and their complaints are often valid, but none of it changes the fact that QL is the primary venue for playing Quake 3.

>>2869907
>nobody uses a wheel mouse
Everyone uses a wheel mouse. BALL mouse is what you're talking about. A wheel mouse is a mouse with a middle mouse button that moves forward and backwards like a wheel. Also it's fine if you don't respond, there's actually nothing you'd really be able to add especially with such amazing commentary as "nobody uses it" which is ironic for having literally one sentence before commented about CRTs which maybe 1% of people still use (and reasonably so). But they, are their best, actually quite on par with a decent optical mouse. Your kind of commentary was also the kind of crap peddled by CSfags when ball mice were on their way out yet ironically many of the best players did play better using a ball mouse than the majority of people with an optical. You hit the human limit before any sort of accuracy becomes an issue with ball mice.

I'll ignore the previous sections because the only reason they exist is because you failed to read, I'll leave that as exercise for you if you want but honestly at this point responding to you is paramount to feeding a troll.

>>2870954
>and it works flawlessly provided you have a low enough ping.
That is false. I can ping anywhere between 5-50 and it's still absolute dog shit, it even notification beeps on non hits. The statement wasn't made about someone getting screwed because of high ping. It simply doesn't work correctly. No one's arguing that QL doesn't have the most players, but it's still shitty as fuck.

>>2868924
Yes, yes yes yes, this. I love you for pointing that out.

>>2871174
I realized afterwards that I did, indeed, say wheel mouse when I meant ball mouse. You're right. You said paramount when you meant tantamount. Sometimes people make mistakes.

Yes, you can work harder and compensate for using an inferior tool and beat people who don't work as hard, but people who DO work as hard as you will have an advantage because they're using a better tool. Rapha could probably beat a lot of very good players on an old IPS panel locked at 30 FPS, but he chooses not to as there would be no upside. Decidedly more average players face similar setbacks when using subpar equipment or playing with a high ping.

People don't bring CRTs to events, but they use 'em, especially in places where playing Quake is at least partially an economical move.

>>2868601
Yeah you could. I played with 300+ ping on my shitty Tasmanian copper lines with a 56k moden that connected at about half it's rated speed and I did all right against mainland cunts other than the lpbs (anyone under 100ms, amirite)

Playable does not mean you're not playing with a handicap. It doesn't mean it's a fair game or that you have a good chance of being on top of the scoreboard. It just means you're having fun and not gonna get completly fucked. 300 is playable.

>>2867686
>being open source has meant Q3 technological oversights have been fixed.
what? load up osp with any source port you like. compare it to quake live. they are worlds apart.
stop being so goddamn stupid

>>2868996
who even plays k2k or vortex nowadays

>>2871476
I don't really have fun at 300ms; I'm more frustrated than anything else. But, of course, it's purely subjective.

>>2871331
>Yes, you can work harder and compensate for using an inferior tool and beat people who don't work as hard, but people who DO work as hard as you will have an advantage because they're using a better tool.
Except it's not even an issue like that. Literally, do not have to work harder or compensate more using a ball mice and I can still beat a good 80% of the players online actively trying and so can any decent player. Ball mice are just not bad at all. An old IPS panel capped at 30 FPS is way more of a handicap. Actually even 99% pof all LCDs period are more of a hinderance. Doesn't stop them from using inferior hardware. Whereas no one is actually handicapped by a ball mouse. There are some differences, I'm not saying people need to go out and use them, but plenty of ball mice are more than acceptable. I prefer not using them for more even weight distribution and not having to clean them. It's basically more convenient not to use them and I prefer the lightest mice I can get with least amount of friction. Do I need it? No, it's like getting a plush comfy couch to watch TV, it's not necessary and doesn't improve your ability to see the TV but it is nice to have. Using a ballmouse will not hinder your ability to play at all. I used it as an extension of myself when I had one just as I use my optical now. I'm in no rush to go back to a ball mouse simply because while it doesn't hinder my playing there's no benefit to be had by doing so. But it was not inaccurate or a problem to use, I landed my shots just as I do now and they're more than accurate to handle the fastest games that were out even when they were largely in use and they're sure as fuck good enough to handle all the slow ass shit out now.

>>2873419
Honestly, I don't have strong opinions on the merits of ball mice; it was just an example. If you believe that ball mice are precise enough to not be considered an inferior tool, I'll readily admit that I haven't done enough research on the subject to refute that. Your post has made me curious to dig one of mine out and see how I do with it since I've been using an optical for so long that I can hardly compare the experiences.

The sentence you quote was more relating to latency as a handicap, which I am much more familiar with. Playing with 300ms is a (big) handicap.

>>2873806
>Your post has made me curious to dig one of mine out and see how I do with it since I've been using an optical for so long that I can hardly compare the experiences.

Don't forget PS2 rate. You might remember that when optical mice first came out they were shittier than ball mice even, not just in pickups but also in sample rate before the USB rate hack they were also limited to 125Hz whereas ball mice were up at 200Hz and far smoother for it.

>>2873985
I've had my poll rate at 125, 250 and 1000 and only noticed a difference between the first two. I feel like you have to be a reeeeeally low sens player to get anything out of 250+.

>>2874207
I notice a difference, I'm a fairly high sensitivity player. ~6/12cm per 360 or double for low sensitivity games. The two ranges are for accel which is like having three sensitivities at my fingertips, two of which really matter for actual movement. I notice the higher poll rate but it's not something that's going to make me significantly better, it's just smoother and nicer to have - supposing games shit on the input and many do.

>>2875463
I don't understand how it's possible to notice the poll rate with such high sensitivity since you'll never come anywhere near capping the speed required to do so.

>>2876365
I can notice the difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz. Move the mouse quickly and as smoothly as possible. Look at the spacing between the updates. Mouse polling is asynchronous from display refresh.

>>2858882
>quake live is no longer free to play
for what purpose?

Quake Live isn't free anymore? What the fuck

>>2876631
Because ad revenues don't work if no one sees them so they want the five people left playing to at least hoist the server cost before they gank it.