Is there a clear cut definition as to what's a J-RPG and

The important part isn't playing a roll but rolling a play.

In the context of video games, RPG has mostly meant that the game has stat-based combat and character power-growth systems modeled after table-top RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons.

Some people don't like the term "RPG" meaning that and want it to mean the same thing it means for actual table-top games, where it refers to actual role-playing/impromptu acting.
Of course, that's impossible with current computer technology, so they wind up arguing about which games have enough choose-your-own-adventure menu branches to count as role-playing in their eyes.

Usually I call them Japanese adventure wargames. Horii made his own adventures for Japanese PCs before making Dragon Quest with Nakamura and the rest. He generally said, in an interview alongside J.B. Harold/Hotel Dusk writer Rika Suzuki (http://shmuplations.com/adventuregames/), that he thought mainly of how to make a better kind of PC adventure but for console players when developing DQ. The game feels like Portopia in enough ways, and then DQ provided the base for many genre titles after it (though guys like Kawazu got inspiration directly from tabletop games both imported and domestic, so a game like SaGa feels unorthodox for reasons).

>>2800964
>The game feels like Portopia in enough ways,
Maybe in terms of menu control.
Otherwise it's a lot like the Ultima series.

A RPG made in Japan.
Genre classifications are supposed to be helpful and make us think of a type of game right away.
People that enter in useless deep debates about it and what games should or should not be in that category are missing the point.

>>2800830
>whenever I cal games like LoZ
Legend of Zelda? Lacking in RPG mechanics. Success is solely dur to player skill, not stats.
>and Pokemon J-RPG's people always have a problem.
Really? I haven't heard anyone deny that Pokemon are JRPGs before. Never actually played them, but I don't see the problem.

>>2800996
>Genre classifications are supposed to be helpful and make us think of a type of game right away.
>People that enter in useless deep debates about it and what games should or should not be in that category are missing the point
Are you stupid or something? Genre classsifications will not be helpful anymore if people don't understand what they actually mean. That's the general concept of language. We have definitions for a word to communicate meaning and it's the same for genres. We wouldn't even need to get into these discussion if people weren't as idiotic as OP here.

>I cal games like LoZ and Pokemon J-RPG's people always have a problem. They're Japanese, and you play a role.
Mario is Japanese and you play a role. Sonic is Japanese and you play a role. In every Japanese game you play a fucking role. Are all Japanese games JRPGs to you?

How am I supposed to talk to this guy who doesn't even understand his own language?

This is why misnomers are to be avoided whenever possible.

Don't call a british black person from jamaica an african american. He's black. And also probably has a name.

The J is the important bit. JRPGs are Japanese Role-Playing Games, or Role-PGs from J.

Of course there's a clear-cut definition, OP. This guy (>>2801003) touches on the importance that some kind of stat system play a roll in game mechanics, as well as pointing out that the Pokemon games sure as fuck qualify as JRPGs. Meanwhile, this guy (>>2801005) points out how utterly simplistic (to the point of being asinine) your proposed rule-of-thumb for JRPG criteria truly is.

if there are cute grills, it's J
my little pony equestria girls is a jrpg

I think that 90% of the confusion is caused by ignorant people thinking it's the fantasy setting that makes a game an RPG and the original Legend of Zelda is the grand bull-moose propagator of this misconception, one that even was fairly common in professional video game journalism in the late 80s. Legend of Zelda is a Japanese fantasy adventure game not a JRPG.

As a good next step in this discussion, and to perhaps more specifically discuss how the term JRPG pretty much requires menu-based non-gridded combat we can look at Zelda 2. Zelda 2 is the only Zelda game that IS an RPG since it has XPs but it's an action RPG. Generally, to refer to a Japanese Action RPG as a JRPG should be avoided.

Then we need to move on to strategy, tactical RPGs like Final Fantasy Tactics, Shining Force or Fire Emblem. Like Japanese ARPGs, Japanese SRPGs should probably not be referred to as JRPGs.

Finally, and most open to discussion are Western RPGs that actually follow the established form of the JRPG. This really doesn't apply to /vr/ games but there are a lot of modern indie games that do it. These can't really be called WRPGs or JRPGs so they should probably just be called "indie shit"

We could go on to discuss what makes MJRPGs distinct from WRPGs, how it's a top down overworld and how that entire trope was stolen from Ultima.

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>>2800830
>They're Japanese, and you play a role.

If that's your definition then Mario is also a roleplaying game. It's impossible you're this stupid.

Do we really need this thread every week? Is this the new Rondo vs CVIV thread?

>you play a role and they're made in japan, so they're role-playing games!!!

Then Super Mario Bros., Pac-Man and Sonic the Hedgehog are all JRPGs, too! Because you play the role of the Mario brothers, Pac-Man and Sonic the Hedgehog in those games, respectively and they're all from Japan!

>>2801435
>Western RPGs that actually follow the established form of the JRPG

Other way around. JRPGs started as copies of WRPGs and tabletop p&p roleplaying games. Over time the games made in Japan developed their own style and the subgenre of JRPG came about. The two will always be closely linked and take notes from each other though.

Zelda is an action adventure game.

you're mom is an rpg, you play her holes lmao

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>>2800830
This is either some super try hard baiting, or you suffer from borderline retardation.

>>2801462
O-oh yeah? Well your mom is a beat em up!

>>2801435
You're making it a bit too simple, we need more precise subdivisions and whether you use menus, icons or shortcuts shouldn't matter that much.
First off is the origin, obviously J for Japan, U for USA, C for Canada, G for Germany, B for Britain, F for France, K for Korea, C for China, S for Spain etc.
Then you need to disinguish between whether the game is action, meaning the player has to make time critical decisions, or not.

Dungeons (D), towns (T) and overland (O) each have to be described on their own since only some games have a single approach for them
-Perspective: First person, bird's eye, side scroller, over the shoulder
-Movement: Grid based, discrete or menu based
-Encounter: visible or invisible random or fixed encounter points with random or fixed encounters

Combat can be
-real time or turn based
-use rows
-use a battle grid
-be discrete or take place in the regular view (this can often work differently in overland)

Dialogs can use combinations of multiple choice and keywords so I'm not sure if it needs to be considered.

>>2801459
>Reading comprehension

>>2801503
The thread is about the definition of JRPGs though, which isn't as simple as "RPGs from Japan". I was simply listing genres that are the most likely to be misidentified as JRPGs as a means of more clearly defining the limits of the definition of JRPG, not that I was undertaking to create a convention to universally describe all adventure games which (considering that naming conventions arise organically) would only make me look autistic.

>>2801435
>These can't really be called WRPGs or JRPGs so they should probably just be called "indie shit"

This entire post is utterly retarded.

>>2801508
There's nothing wrong with my comprehension. You need to work on your sentence structure.

>Finally, and most open to discussion are Western RPGs that actually follow the established form of the JRPG.

>>2801475
Name of this game?

>>2801508
Adventures are a non-genre. You use it for anything that doesn't have other gameplay elements.

>>2801520
That's simply not true.

>>2800830
Pokemon is an RPG. Zelda is an action-RPG. Hope that clears things up.

>>2801517
Yes, your misunderstanding stems from your nerd-ego causing you ignore the context and apply the wrong definition of the word "following" (plus presuming I'm referring to WRPGs as a whole and not particular WRPGs) to allow you to feel smug about repeating your apparently oft-used "nuh uh JRPGs ripped off WRPGs" diatribe at me despite the fact that I explicitly said as much in the post you were replying to.

>>2801518
That's Legend of the River King 2. A really great little game that's a combination of a fishing game and JRPG. It has a neat battle system too. If you like relaxing games I recommend it.

>>2801520
Not him, but Adventure games are a long and well established genre. The people who try to say everything is an adventure game because you're going on an adventure are as ignorant as the ones calling RPGs anything where you play a role.

It's not a perfect source obviously, but if you're confused this is a decent synopsis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game

>>2801527
>Zelda is an action-RPG.
It doesn't, because you're wrong.

>>2801527
>Zelda is an action-RPG
It's not. Zelda 2 is.

>>2801528
So which definition of the word "follow" were you using there?

>>2800830

>must take a minimum of 30 hours to beat
>at least 20 of those hours must be spent grinding
>must have an annoyingly tedious form of combat
>must have multiple endings
>must make no goddamn sense at all

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>>2801534
>>2801535

>>2801528
>Finally, and most open to discussion are Western RPGs that actually follow the established form of the JRPG.

This sentence strongly implies that JRPGs established a form which WRPGs then followed. That it didn't happen that way is simply fact. Whether you like it or not, JRPGs developed out of WRPGs.

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Take this shit to >>>/v/

Not Retro.

>>2801543
>>2801536
There are fucking Western developed RPGs that imitate JRPGs. You're fucking stupid if you think there aren't. You have poor reading comprehension if you think I was saying that WRPGs in general are imitating JRPGs and you're willfully ignorant not to read my next paragraph where I explicitly state that JRPGs conventions are imitations of Ultima.

Jesus Christ. Why has /vr/ become so full of fedoras?

>>2801603
Which I mentioned very clearly in my original post here >>2801459 This is all because you had one poorly worded sentence. There's no real disagreement, just drop it and stop spazing out. Calling other people autists and then losing your shit over a 4chan thread is pretty lame.

>>2801531
A lot of other games incorporate stories without needing to be categorized as adventures, exploration and puzzles, puzzle games are a genre in their own right.
Visual novels in particular are just a long cut scene with no interaction.

>>2800830

The Legend of Zelda is an action adventure game, an action game with exploration, puzzles, and items that you can equip and give you new abilities.

It isnt a role playing game.
It is like saying that Ecco the Dolphin is a role playing game because you play the role of a Dolphin.

>>2801608
Insisting on repeatedly "correcting" someone who obviously is not mistaken is what's pathetic - representing a pathetic need to feel "right". This need completely wasted my entire post, not just the part that's being taken issue with. "What to call WRPGs that immitate JRPGs" is a legitimate constructive topic for this thread that could help more clearly define the boundaries of the RPG and instead it just got turned into typical "nuh uh WRPGs were first" masturbation.

Have fun in this thread by yourself. I'm done with it.

>>2801609
Read the link if you're honestly confused. Like I say, it's not perfect but is a decent synopsis for laymen. I didn't invent the term adventure games and I don't have time to debate it with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

There is never a clear cut definition on what defines a genre. If you want a general outline of what constitutes a JRPG, go to Wikipedia.

Zelda (except for arguably Zelda 2) is not a JRPG series, Pokemon is.

>>2801614
>>2801614
This was so clearly a bait thread from the first post. It's not like anything important is lost. No one who's even vaguely familiar with video games seriously needs genre definitions explained to them.

>>2801616
I'm not confused. I've played several adventure games, Japanese and otherwise, and I'm not saying they aren't a genre, just that they're bottom of the barrel after the core aspects were absorbed by other genres.
It's hard to have a RPG without adventure aspects since the late 80s yet nobody talks about adventure RPGs.

>>2801618

I bet you it's by the same faggot who made the "JRPGs Are Literally UNPLAYABLE By Modern Standards" thread that was such a massive success a week or two ago. You know....

~=-+DRAGO FIREHEART+-=~

...And all that bullshit.

>>2801435
There isn't a real need to specify Japanese when talking Action RPGs. The only real split there is whether or not it's a "Metroidvania" or not. Though I guess you could also make a split for Arcade style Action RPGs like Gauntlet Legends and Cadash.

>>2801627
Yup, as well as the "CRPGs and JRPGS are NOT the same thing" one. It's all very likely the same guy.

It's a bullshit bait thread. Just treat it like the trash it is.

>>2801617
Faggot.

>>2801691
Careful with that axe Eugene.

J-RPG refers to any RPG from Japan just like anime refers to all Japanese animation but it is commonly only used to describe games that don't fall into major subgenres. Most JRPGs are expected to be similar to Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy and not, say, Wizardry (a dungeon crawler) or Zelda (an Action-Adventure game) or Pokemon (a monster training game?).

The RPG genre also does not literally refer to games where you play a role but to games that grew out of D&D (typically games with a scenario, exploration, number based combat, dungeons, etc.). Like you obviously wouldn't call Mario games RPGs jus because you have a character and a basic story.

>>2801435
The thing is, in regard to Zelda, the first two Zelda games were released in a time where the Action-Adventure and Action-RPG genre weren't considered very distinct. Dragon Slayer and Hydlide, the two games considered most similar to Zelda at the time, were both RPGs for example; and many similar games released after Zelda were RPGs as well. Even plain old Adventure games were intended to be RPGs in the beginning, borrowing the scenario and free exploration of D&D but not the combat, so I'd consider the whole Adventure genre to be a subset of a larger RPG genre since it all comes from the source of D&D. Otherwise it's like retroactively calling Television (the band) post-punk even though punk didn't really even exist yet.

Actually I just looked this up, and Zelda 1 is quite clearly labeled "Action-RPG" in the original Japanese manual, so there you go. Zelda=RPG.

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>>2802572
Actually, on second look, this is from a Japanese Nintendo published magazine it looks like but it seems pretty official. It says action RPG at the top and in the text it says something like: "The experience point system of RPG games was eliminated because many people don't like it." I think.

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>>2801612
>>It is like saying that Ecco the Dolphin is a role playing game because you play the role of a Dolphin.
Wrong.
Ecco is an RPG because you play as Ecco, who *coincidentally (that's the magic word) is also a dolphin.
Get your facts straight.

>>2800830
JRPGs are JRPGs and non JRPGs are non JRPGs.

>>2802572
>>2802590
Not eliminated, but "cleverly (re)arranged" -- probably referring to Link's power growth in the form of hearts and tools.

>>2802572
What about Druaga and the rest of the Babylonian series?

>>2802636
No, you're wrong.

>>2800830
is it an rpg? was it made in japan?

>>2800840
God damnit, it's that simple! That makes so much more sense. Like, you can play the role of Mario or Sonic but that doesn't make it an RPG.

LoZ is not an RPG though, OP. Clearly your definition is too broad.