GOOD CHARACTERS HAVE FLAWS Nobody wants a fucking Mary Sue.

>>32724654
When does Lillie lose?

>>32724654
>Nobody wants a fucking Mary Sue
But everyone wants to fuck Mary Sue

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>>32724654
>lillie
>one of the best characters ever

>>32724654
Really want to taste those legs

Her entire character arc is her having mommy issues. That's not just a character flaw, it's an overbearing one.

>>32724654
>The fact that Lillie has flaws
Too many flaws!
It's trash!

>>32724654
the only mary sue in pokemon is (You)

>>32724684
The player character you mean? Very true.

>>32724663
Lillie doesn't battle, so she doesn't lose. So what? She still has flaws in her personality, but that's a good thing.

>>32724671
Oh please. You probably though Giovanni was such a captivating villain.

>>32724680
You obviously don't remember the plot in very much detail. Can you elaborate on how her having that as one of her flaws is a bad thing? Her mom wasn't her entire arc; she also formed a bond with Hau and the player and Nebby most of all and came to love Pokemon.

>>32724681
Too many? Go ahead and list them. I'll wait.

>>32724654
She's a major Mary sue...

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ENOUGH of this lillie shit.

Pokemon is know for its women and you faggots obsess of this generic,bland one?christ

>>32724692

Listen anon, I'm mostly neutral on Lillie, let me tell you right now you're setting yourself up to get baited hard.

>>32724702
>Pokemon is know for its women
Maybe in this virgin cesspool, but not outside /vp/

>>32724701
Horse fucking shite and you know that.

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>>32724654

>>32724654
I'd argue that Lillie is still treated as a Mary Sue throughout SM because her flaws are geared to make her more sympathetic than anything else. A non-Mary Sue would have qualities that might alienate the audience but still allow the character to redeem themselves.

Good characters are flawed but not all flawed characters are good

>>32724740
Good thing Lillie is a good character.

>>32724654
I want to FUCK Lillie!

>>32724766
same i would bury my cock in op's pic and cum on her legs

>>32724761
The only possible way you could think that is if Sun/Moon is the only form of entertainment you have ever consumed. Either that or you're mentally ill.

>>32724938
>durrrr if you dun agree with me ur mental

>>32724701
Because...? People don't know what a Mary Sue really means these day.

>>32724702
>Pokemon is know for its women
Okay, you're even more retarded

>>32724952
She's a poor character. Her character is incredibly generic (sheltered rich girl) and she doesn't learn from or get punished because of any of her mistakes. The entire reason the player receives in any Pokemon game is so that they can protect themselves from wild Pokemon attacks. But Lillie is so perfect that wild Pokemon never attack her. And she's so perfect that she can raise her Cosmog's level and evolve it without even using it in battle. Then there how she supposedly "freed" Nebby, but then just leaves it trapped in a bag all the time.

When you're in love with a character or person, you're blind to all their flaws. The fact is that she is an objectively poor character.

>>32724975
People don't know what most words mean these days.

>>32724654
Lillie is on the opposite end of the spectrum from Mary Sues
She's worthless in every possible way and does nothing but inconvenience the player.

>>32725001
its tru retard go online and 9/10 is waifu bait shit.

The people who played pokemon for the gameplay abandoned ship long ago dude

>>32725019
>But Lillie is so perfect that wild Pokemon never attack her.
She canonically uses repels dumbass

>>32724692
And remember she hated pokemon battles but by the end she left on her own journey as a trainer

>>32725019
>But Lillie is so perfect that wild Pokemon never attack her
Or because she uses repels

>>32724952
hes right you have to be mentally unstable if

1.You found pokemon sun/moon to be good games (ohmori himself admits it was shit)
2.glorify a shit character (Lillie is a shit character down to the concept)

>>32724975
Considering how everyone unconditionally loves her except her mother (who is literally possessed) and everyone is devestated that she has to leave at the end, she comes pretty close. Although the player character is a much bigger one.

>>32724766
>>32724800

These guys know what's up

Lillie's flaws only serve as "cute" fallacies to make her more appealing to the player (getting flustered, getting lost all the time), she has no genuine flaws that give her a moment of weakness.

She's only a shit symptom in a game that is nearly 100% complete shit.

SM kiddies are all underage or autistic, or just desperate to have a Pokemon community to connect to. The games are garbage.

>>32725038
>>32725045
How do repels work? They repel all Pokemon weaker than the first Pokemon in your party. She doesn't have any Pokemon in her party unless you count Cosmog but she doesn't officially own it so that wouldn't work. Plus how does she afford all those repels? She doesn't exactly earn money from Pokemon battles.

There's also the issue of how she can carry a Pokemon that weighs a ton.

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>>32724702
My nigga.

>>32725019
>she doesn't learn from
Literally she learns from (you) and thanks to you she wants to be another person.

>or get punished because of any of her mistakes.
The core of the plot is given thanks to Lillie stealing Cosmog from Lusamine, and it leads to Lusamine bringing him back with the purpose of open a portal leading to UB world, which nearly causes Nebby's death and Ultra Beast at alola

>And she's so perfect that she can raise her Cosmog's level and evolve it without even using it in battle.
Didn't Gladio told her how to raise Cosmoe's level via prophecy? In that case, MC is also a Mary Sue because you help her to raise Cosmoe as well, and it didn't came out of nowhere

>>32725087
SMagotts are really fucked.

>>32725051
>everyone is devestated that she has to leave at the end
it was just Kukui and Hau.

>>32724654
Lillie is more flaw than virtue, though. They went overboard with the whole make her have defects thing. She's almost 100% defective.

>>32725047
>(ohmori himself admits it was shit)
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

>>32725091
>trying to compare game mechanics with story plot mechanics
Let me guess, you're retarded

>>32725204
>Literally she learns from (you) and thanks to you she wants to be another person.
She doesn't learn anything. She's still the innocent person who dindu nuffin wrong at the end of the game.

>The core of the plot is given thanks to Lillie stealing Cosmog from Lusamine, and it leads to Lusamine bringing him back with the purpose of open a portal leading to UB world, which nearly causes Nebby's death and Ultra Beast at alola
That isn't Lillie getting punished for her actions, all that would have still happened if Lillie hadn't saved Cosmog in the first place. The closest thing to punishment Lillie receives is getting a telling off by her mother.

>Didn't Gladio told her how to raise Cosmoe's level via prophecy? In that case, MC is also a Mary Sue because you help her to raise Cosmoe as well, and it didn't came out of nowhere
MC is the biggest case of Mary Sue in the entire series. He is literally chosen by the island guardian before he gets his first Pokemon.

>>32725239
If a game has to separate its story from its game mechanics then it's a terrible story.

>>32725255
Thanks for confirm you're retarded.

>>32725246
>She doesn't learn anything. She's still the innocent person who dindu nuffin wrong at the end of the game.
She started to dream about being a trainer because MC becomes her inspiration as the game goes, did you really played the same game? And she literally didn't do nothing wrong besides the sabotage of Lusamine's plan

That isn't Lillie getting punished for her actions, all that would have still happened if Lillie hadn't saved Cosmog in the first place. The closest thing to punishment Lillie receives is getting a telling off by her mother.
What I am trying to say is that her actions leads to a reaction in all the game, and those moments really affected her. And she didn't save Cosmog at the end, they were Gladio, Hau, and mainly the MC.

>>32725341
i forgot to quote the last one but meh

>>32725263
Thanks for confirming you have no idea what constitutes a good story.

>>32725087
this

Gen VII is a straight downgrade , XY is a masterpiece compared to this shit.You sun and moon kiddies are definitely underage and hysterical

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Lillie's just dull and exists solely to drag the plot along because GameFreak can't make the player anything but a blank slate anymore. You're still as Mary/Gary as ever, regardless of how much of the game revolves around her.

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>>32724654
Not a huge fan of Lillie, but I'll definitely agree she was the best. But best =! my favorite.
Many character in the series before her had flaws. But those were retarded flaws. Either the character was being so fucking stupid he couldn't see the obvious, or he couldn't train his Pokemon properly. That was it. Both are boring shit. Like Cheren, for examples, falls in former. His thing was that he was so retarded he couldn't think of why he wanted power. And Bianca, who falls in the latter category. She was just unable to train Pokemon.

So seeing a character whose flaw came from childhood trauma was a really welcome change of pace. Seeing those flaws actually matter, in that she gets in trouble because of them, was also nice. Seeing a character who RECOGNIZED her flaws, but because she was physically unable to fix it, she tried to make up for it with other things. For once, Pokemon made a good character.

But going back to first statement, best doesn't necessarily have to be my favorite. I liked Gladion more. He wasn't as good as Lillie, but I found him more fun. I liked the edge and how he was the opposite of Lillie. Better suited for my taste.

Also, ignore the faggots. If you think Lillie is a good or even if you think she's the best yet, good for you. You don't need to prove anything. And you aren't going to prove anything. If someone was capable of understanding this, they've would've understood on their own. Trying to explain this is going to get you nowhere. It's a waste of everyone's time.
Or maybe you're just doing this for the (You)s, in which case, you're even more pathetic.

The only reason Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon aren't sequels is that they could include Lillie in the story.

>responding and replying to a dumb waifuposter
for shame.

>debating the lack of a strong plot and cast of characters in a game that's literally designed for preschoolers
Go read a fucking newspaper, you stuffy old coots.

>>32724737
This. Anyone who thinks that her mommy problems are an actual "flaw" in terms of writing doesn't get how "human flaws" work.

>>32725047
>1.You found pokemon sun/moon to be good games (ohmori himself admits it was shit)
Sauce me right the fuck now or you're full of shit.

>>32725666
>Like Cheren, for examples, falls in former. His thing was that he was so retarded he couldn't think of why he wanted power
But Cheren says himself he wants power in order for others to validate his existence. His whole development is his interaction with Alder and how he learns there's something beyond becoming strong for external verification. If you want to argue about him being retarded, it's something other than about him not knowing why he wanted power. I personally think Cheren/Bianca are some of the better characters in the series compared to others.

>>32724654
Name one which doesn't begin with 'stup' and end with 'ity'

>>32725263
A good story doesn't break set rules

>>32724654

This thread, irrelevant of how much of a faggot OP is, made me realize that I really don't like Lillie.

I enjoyed my first playthrough of SM a lot. I felt content when it ended. I smiled when Lillie decided to go to Kanto to become stronger. But, looking back on it, why did the entire plot revolve around this girl? Why was the protag's entire journey basically helping this girl get somewhere in her life? I may be an autist, but a trainer has shit to do and strong opponents to battle or something. This wasn't the protag's journey as much as it was hers. I don't hate her, but the game couldn't manage to convince me to care enough about her, I guess. It's nice that she makes it evident she likes the protag a lot, but of course she would like them. They basically hard carry her through Alola.

>>32725978
Firstly, yes, I agree Cheren and Bianca are WAY better than the majority. But being better than shit isn't an achievement.

>Cheren says himself he wants power in order for others to validate his existence
Yes, that's the conclusion he comes to. That's the big conclusion of his "development". Realizing why he wants something obvious. And that's shit. Imagine any character. It doesn't have to a great Guts. Take an Ash. If he spent the entire time wanting to get strong, but suddenly decided he wanted power to protect others, that's shit. It's next to nothing. Yes, of course you want to protect those close to you. Everyone does. That's obvious shit that applies to EVERYONE. He realized something everyone knew. That's boring.

Not to mention his so called "development" was also not really development. At least it didn't have what is the good part of development, he just had empty development. It was episodic development. Every time you met him, he had realized something and was slightly different. That's not how you handle development. It's meaningless if you don't SEE it. See the character experience new things and see them overcome every bit of the wall they've encountered.
In Cheren, you saw him hit a wall, and then disappear. Next time he appeared, he had climbed a bit further. You don't see how he got there. You just see he got there. There's nothing satisfying about that type of "development". You're essentially meeting a new character each time, rather than seeing a character develop. That was due to the limitation of story telling in a game, but that doesn't excuse it.

All said and done, he was still miles ahead of anything before. He had development, even if it was all shit. Something > nothing.

>>32726045
>Yes, that's the conclusion he comes to.
That quote is from near the beginning of the game, around the 3rd gym, not really the conclusion. Although, I do agree that his growth isn't that groundbreaking or intriguing, but he wasn't a big part of the game anyways. If he was, then I would have maybe taken more fault with him. I actually quite preferred the subtle development between the times you meet him instead of it being shoved down your throat.

>>32726110
Right, I forgot. My bad. It was to validate his existence. So his "development" was finding another reason for it. It only changes his starting set up. It doesn't affect the rest of him. That does make it slightly better, though. He spent time trying to understand something obvious, but he had an answer in mind.
As for development being subtle and not shoved down your throat, everyone agrees. But the development Cheren received was FAR from subtle. He literally reports every bit of his development to you every time you meet him. At one point, he outright states how he has changed. That's the opposite of subtle. What Cheren got is normally considered just empty development, where you see none of the development happen, you just the change. And if you like that, you're definitely part of the minority.

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>>32726038
Well, I liked Lillie, so I'll try my best to answer your questions and explain my reasoning, if you don't mind.

First, you asked why did the plot had to revolve around this girl. What I don't understand is the problem. Why CAN'T it revolve around a girl? It's not exactly a new form of story telling. The most important thing in the story is hardly ever the protagonist. Sometimes it's a magical item, sometimes it's another mythical place, and sometimes it's a character. The protagonist just resolves the conflict. You can see this in all sorts of stories. From you One Piece to your Berserk. It's just another form of story telling, nothing more. There's only so much that can revolve around a silent character, so they added another.

Second was how a Trainer has shit to do. Yes, they do. And you do shit. You're training your Pokemon, taking on Trails and becoming the Champion. You're just also doing something else, helping a friend. You're always taking this type of detour, be to save the world or help someone retrieve a stolen Pokemon. This time, I actually cared. I didn't care about saving the PokeWorld. It's too impersonal and frankly boring. I didn't care about helping retrieve random Pokemon that Rocket, Galactic or any other team stole. But I did care about saving something I had grown attached to.

Now, I can understand why you would consider this a problem if you didn't care about Lillie. Which you have admitted to. But most of people did. Of course they would. They gave you enough time to care, and Lillie had a pleasant, charming and caring personality, all the while hinting at her role being more important, which got people to care. If you don't like those things, you wouldn't care about any of this. But that's a matter of taste. I wouldn't call that an inherently bad thing. Sharing your journey and adventure with someone was something people liked, you didn't. That's all there is to it.

Hopefully that cleared some things up for you.

>>32724737
So.... Gladion?

>Trying to make a discussion of characters in the most autistic board
Do you know the number one symptom of autism?

>>32726146
>Most people cared for the generic waifu
There is surprisingly little threads circle jerking about her, most people on this board care more for Tsareena or Gardevoir than they do for Lillie

>>32724766
i wanna fuck her asshole and fill it with my cum, if you know what i mean

>>32724654
Is the flaw being annoying and half the game is me fast forwarding her dialogue

>>32726234
There are no threads for Tsareena and Gardevoir at the moment but there are about 3 threads made by Lilliefags.

>>32726270
Just a few people spamming threads, surprisingly the Lilliefags are more autistic than Pokemon fuckers

>>32724654
I love Lilie but I would have prefered if she had some fighting ability of her own and would shut up a little. I like the character but I dislike the game forcing me to glue myself into her at every opportunity. I think the story would have been better if we had the option to persuade her to stay so she took Nebby and became my partner.

>>32726250
no that's just your ADD

>>32726146

I'm that Anon you responded to. Personally, I think that the strongest aspect of Pokemon games is its RPG elements. I enjoy exploring the world as the protag, raising cute little critters into murder machines, and achieving milestones while the plot shows up here and there.

The story has always revolved around the protag - you. Like you've said, there is no actual reason for it to not revolve around another character. The problem with SM is that not only the protag, but also the world take a backseat for Lillie to shine. She's literally attached to you at the hip during every important moment - she's the one who's making discoveries, drawing conclusions and then spelling them out for you every single time with an apologetic smile. You, the protag, are not growing as a trainer in comparison; you watch her grow instead, which takes like more than half of the game. Although I won't argue that writing before SM was stellar, the plot in those games were always a vehicle to get you to explore the world and travel with your Pokemon as a trainer. Sometimes, it was very dumb. But the biggest emphasis has always been travel and discovery that you, as a trainer, make. There is very little of this in Alola.

In SM, we have an enjoyable (imo) story, but everything else takes a backseat. It plays out like a movie with Lillie as the main character and you as the silent, constantly smiling movie-goer. Other aspects of the game remain very lackluster even before the "league", which is a first for Pokemon games imo. This is the first time I haven't gotten autistically attached to my Pokemon in a main game. SM's replayability is also very low because of the games' strong emphasis on the story, which I have already seen. Going through it again would be tedious because it is almost the entire game.

In the end, to each their own. It's nice that you enjoyed SM.

>>32724671
At least is fuckable you dense palindrome

>>32726749
her haircut is an abomination and it looks even worse when she puts it up in a ponytail.

>>32726749
Gladion is still better and I am not even gay

She can't fight, she (was) sheltered as fuck and didn't have a personality.
>>32726760
You're a fucking abomination. Ponytail is worse though, even though I like that actual character development it signified.

>>32726711
I know exactly what you mean, as I made the same exact statement yesterday about raising monsters, seeing new places and conquering towns. The only difference was, I added the story and characters as things I've come to enjoy.

It gives me a shared experience, a shared adventure, which is more fun than a solo experience to me. If I'm forced to watch a story and I'm giving the choice between seeing a quiet character alone do shit, or have others accompany him, I would choose the latter. If you don't want a story altogether in Pokemon, then that's a different problem. To me, adding a story doesn't take away from those RPG elements. All of that is still here, but with more.

I don't understand the statement that the story always revolves around you. That hasn't happened since Gen 2, where the Evil Teams started getting goals, and those goals got the focus. In RSE, there's nothing on you. You're just fighting the evil team. There's no other role you have. You're doing that in SM as well. Only there's someone even more important this time, someone not evil.

Personally, I liked the SM protagonists the most, simply because of their role. The role was much more interesting than any before to me, as you're not just fighting the evil team, but also inspiring and giving hope to someone to stand up for themselves, at the same time, you're playing a big role in establishing a Pokemon League, helping out Interpol and building up nice relationships with every character you meet, especially Gladion and Hau. That gave the protagonists more personality for me, even without dialogue. And I liked that, more than anything before.

I normally get attached to the Pokemon I use, unless they're really disappointing and just borderline unusable. That remained the same, but this time, I got attached even Pokemon that weren't mine, like Nebby and Null. That was a really nice feeling.

SM was just more suited for my needs. Hopefully, you'll get something you enjoy next time.

>>32726848
And you are not explaining in any way why Lillie is a good character at all, is helping Lillie the only reason you like her, it is just a story that forces you into helping somebody that you may not care about, doesn't help that the rails are in full force yet again, because you are expected to help the cute girl who absolutely can't do nothing wrong, some people find motivation through exploration and discovery, some through protecting others, but Lillie is a shallow character, if you are forced to protect someone then make them interesting.

>>32726148
I'd argue Gladion is Lillie done right.

>>32726904
I'd argue youre dumb as shit

>>32726896
I didn't think I had to, but I can try to explain exactly why I like Lillie, if you want me to.
You called her shallow, and to me, a shallow character is one that lacks detail or have inconsistencies. And I'm going to do my best explain how Lillie isn't a shallow character to me. Since that's the angle I would tackle it from, it would be long. About 2 posts long. Still want that explained?

>>32728203
Triggered?

>>32728269
Go ahead.

>>32728428
No, he's casting the most obvious bait, my retarded anon.

>>32728269
Go on

>>32726896
First, the fundamentals. She's got basics right. A well defined past, that past being what defines her personality and situation in present, even her conflicts and flaws. Nothing about her is random. And none of that was "boring" to me. Her past was interesting as it told how Lusamine went crazy, why she did the things she did, and how those things affected the kids. That's not something that happens a lot of character. You're given a character, but no reason why that character is the way they are. That's shallow. If you're not presented with a good reason that makes sense, that just makes the character a trope with nothing going for them. A cliche. And that wasn't the case here. Her past made sense, why she had the personality she did made sense, what her goals were made sense. All of that is a pretty good start.

Second, the personality. Helping, caring, and while reticent and weak, still putting others before her and trying her best to not be a bother. Unless you hate those traits, I don't see a problem. She was also responsible. Because of her, Nebby was out in the world, so she did everything she physically could to protect Nebby. Granted, that wasn't much, thus the "weak" part. Whenever she ends up getting help, which is a lot, it's because the in-game people wanted to help her. Because she was a likeable character. She actually is grateful for that. She tries her best to make up herself useful, such being Kukui's assistant and doing everything from housework to running errands for letting her stay. All in all, she's a nice person. And I like nice people.

But if that was all, it would get boring pretty fast. What kept it from becoming boring was the circumstances surrounding her. From the very beginning, she said and did things that hinted at her real role in the story, which kept me interested in seeing where this goes. And Nebby, who was obviously special. The first island let me ease to the characters and the game with an awful tutorial.

>>32728695
Helping others is kind of a running theme in Pokemon, so on the second island, I was okay helping her, even if I didn't care much about her at that point. Then the plot picks up the pace. Her connections to Gladion and Lusamine come to light and it makes things much more interesting. The whole Aether Paradise raid part was fun, seeing the frozen Pokemon and crazy Lusamine and aliens. So again, I didn't mind protecting her because everything surrounding that rescue was interesting. And I had grown to like Nebby, simply because it was THE cutest thing ever, so I didn't feel forced to help Nebby.

All this time, from the very beginning, she's been slowly grow, because seeing MC do great shit inspired her. By the time she gets kidnapped, she had already come to the point that she willingly goes with her kidnappers to protect Hau, who was in turn TRYING to protect her but got in trouble. She ran from Lusamine in the beginning, but now she faced her, trying to reason with her. Turns out reasoning with her doesn't work. At her lowest point, when she's all out of options, MC come to save her. She didn't expect that. Seeing the MC save her from her most hopeless situation yet gives her the final push. At that point, she comes to completely trust MC, the two go together to save Nebby, and she herself tries her hardest to help Nebby. She also becomes more confident and cheerful, just more lovable as a character.

This is why I like a character. She's got the necessary amount detail, development, a life of her own with connections to other people, nice personality, actual flaws that aren't just her being stupid, without any inconsistencies and with a satisfying conclusion. That is why I like her. If you find that boring, it just means this character isn't for you. You probably prefer more strong characters who can fight for themselves instead of talking. But I do like this type of character. Seeing the weak little kid become independent is a favorite of mine.

I don't like her, personally. Her development is unwarranted because of how little adversity she has to overcome herself. Her ideas are never challenged and she doesn't decide to grow up until the very end of the game where she fucks off to Kanto. Her interactions with characters, especially the player character are also really god damn boring. She always talks about how she wants to be stronger and only takes a few minute steps towards that before her actual development happens presumably offscreen.

>>32728705
>did everything she physically could to protect Nebby
Except Nebby didn't like that at all and she refused to use Pokeball, because???

>because the in-game people wanted to help her
Now we have a bigger problem here.
Why is literally everyone caring about Lillie? Kukui and Burnett are understandable. But why in the hell would Hapu'u care more about her than you the protag? Why is Plumeria saying she needs your protection after stealing Nebby by herself?

>Because she was a likeable character.
They are helping her after talking like 10 secs.

>She tries her best to make up herself useful
>such being Kukui's assistant
It's sad we see literally nothing. And she can't even sew and has to buy stuffs instead!

>doing everything from housework to running errands for letting her stay.
That's the minimum thing you can do for your savior.

>So again, I didn't mind protecting her because everything surrounding that rescue was interesting.
So that means the other characters and scenario might be interesting, but she did nothing in that plot.

>And I had grown to like Nebby, simply because it was THE cutest thing ever, so I didn't feel forced to help Nebby.
That's a fucking disturbing reason. So if Nebby wasn't cute, you would feel forced?

>She also becomes more confident and cheerful
>the two go together to save Nebby
And still does nothing except having new clothes. Ho did anything help Nebbyin that point? You are still the one battling for her.

>actual flaws
The game doesn't adress any flaws.

>Seeing the weak little kid become independent is a favorite of mine.
She need you to battle for her to the last moment of the game.
It's ok when you have to everything for Lillie, because she can't battle! she hates Pokemon getting hurt! But who cares Nebby is suffering in the bag.
You have to battle for her, find Nebby for her, lead her the way even you are doing this the first time! She does exactly the same thing as her mother.

>>32728705
Honestly, you are trying to make everything she does like something heroic, even when it's not the case.

>>32729060
>Except Nebby didn't like that at all and she refused to use Pokeball
Nebby clearly love her. As for the Poke Ball, she couldn't. If it was possible to catch Nebby, Lusamine would've. Considering she didn't, it wasn't possible is most logical conclusion you can draw. There's many reason why this was the case.

>Why is literally everyone caring about Lillie?
Answer is simple. She's a nice person, with a nice personality who treated everyone nicely. And people like that. Have you ever met a nice people in life? You might understand if you have.
To you, that might be boring. In-universe, they aren't everyone to kick ass and say the wittiest lines. People don't look for that in life, normally.

>They are helping her after talking like 10 secs.
Any examples? Outside of characters who are prone to helping others, of course. Some of them just help everyone. Is there any case where they help only Lillie, because she's Lillie?

>It's sad we see literally nothing.
No, if we did see, more people would complain. And it was something you didn't need to see.

>That's the minimum thing you can do for your savior.
And literally all any normal person can. In her shoes, what would you do? Offer your soul? Pay money that you don't have?

>So that means the other characters and scenario might be interesting, but she did nothing in that plot.
She initiated all of it. None of that happens without what she did. And in that case, I agree it was the surroundings. I was explain why I didn't mind protecting her, not why I liked her as a character in that sentence. It was another thing I was asked.

>if Nebby wasn't cute, you would feel forced?
Well, I wouldn't have a reason to care.

>did anything help Nebbyin that point?
Battles aren't everything. She's the one who gathered all information she could on how to save Nebby. You just accompanied her.

>The game doesn't adress any flaws
>who cares Nebby is suffering in the bag
Come on, anon.

>battle for her
Come on, anon. Again.

>>32729106
You're correct, anon. I was. Because I was explaining why I liked her, in just 2 posts.
SM was a long game. And I didn't like her because of a single thing. I had a really bad first impression of her, as I wasn't a fan of her design. It looked generic. It was also another one of those Pokemon cosplay designs I HATE. I just grew to like her over the course, even came to appreciate the cosplay design after I learned the reasoning behind it.

So, yes, you're right. I did try to make her sound as good as I possibly could.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arlKOLyItPc
>that part where she crosses a scary bridge all on her own

>>32729165
>If it was possible to catch Nebby, Lusamine would've.
How do you know that? Is it shown she doesn't use it, because she couldn't or had better machines to trap Nebby?
And Lillie has to talk about that. You can't just assume it.

>Answer is simple. She's a nice person, with a nice personality who treated everyone nicely.

>She's a nice person.
So, you go shopping with the person, you've met for 5 mins. And you also care more about her than the protag, who is obviously on Island Challenge and even beat you 10 sec ago.

>Any examples?
Hapu'u, Acerola and even Plumeria even wants you to help her.

>No, if we did see, more people would complain.
Any examples? More than just "Here is an item for you!", what every NPC does?
Why don't they reduce other cutscenes to show how she is actually usefull as an assistant?

>And it was something you didn't need to see.
WTF, you just said they showed to us. Now you are saying it was something we didn't need to see and so it is good?

>That's the minimum thing you can do for your savior.
So her being nice is something what everyone has to do, not that she is outstanding nice? Are you agreeing with me?

>Well, I wouldn't have a reason to care.
I have no idea what to say. Are you serious?

>She's the one who gathered all information
Any examples?

>Come on, anon.
Tell me any examples of addressing her "flaws".
And also tell me why she has to keep that poor thing in that freakin small bag, instead of "she coudn't use the Pokeball", something has to be mentioned. That's a very basic question.

>Come on, anon. Again.
Come on, anon. Again.

>>32726243
but she poops from there, anon

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The problem with Sun and Moon was they were experimenting with a more direct narrative. They decided they wanted a lead character that was more defined and directly involved in the back story of the game. But they also wanted to allow the player to continue controlling a character who was mostly up to the interpretation of the person playing, like the previous games.
As a result, you have two characters. Lillie essentially acts as the actual story relevant heroine, while the player just controls a puppet like entity that's just along for the ride. This didn't really work too well though. While Lillie is definetly more structured than a usual lead in a Pokemon game, it's the player's role to actually DO everything, which ends up making Lillie seem particularly helpless, even by damsel in distress standards. She delivers story and motivation well, but she leaves everything to the actual player controlled character, even rescuing Nebby, the whole reason she ran away in the first place.
Things get sloppy on the player character's end too. The player character has always been just kind of a reactionary entity in these games, but the delivery didn't cause any serious issues before. Now you have cut-scenes of characters letting out all their feelings on some blank-faced kid with comparatively no characterization. It's just odd, and it makes you, the player seem entirely out of place in the world.

I think GF really needed to bite the bullet and just have the player control a defined, fully characterized entity with their own story related motivations if they wanted to have the narrative go in this direction. Essentially, you would play as a character like Lillie instead of just playing body guard to that kind of a character. But again, I think they are worried people will dislike not being able to interpret the player character freely.

>>32729445
But why did most of the part worked on N, but not on Lillie?

>>32724654
The sad thing isn't that you're baiting people with this nonsense, but that some people actually agree with this and think Sun and Moon had a good story. For goodness sake people, you don't even need to open a book or watch a masterfully-written movie, just play a half-decent game.

>>32729466
For a bulk of BW, N is presented as an antagonist (not to be confused with a villain) and him being a separate entity from the player was actually key to how his character was delivered.
Even in BW2, he is more mysterious and out experiencing his own journey.
Lillie on the other hand is glued to you, speaks for you and if she isn't by her side, she is off doing... nothing in particular. Meanwhile, if she ever needs an actual task completed, it's the player who takes the reigns.
N was designed to exist parallel to the player character. Lillie exists beside the player character. The problem is, the existence of both Lillie and the player character end up becoming a bit redundant because of this.

>>32729368
>You can't just assume it.
And you can't assume she didn't use Poke Ball. You don't know that. Considering the fact Nebby is an Ultra Beast, and the fact that Lusamine also didn't, I'm just drawing upon the most logical conclusion to draw upon.

>Hapu'u, Acerola and even Plumeria
Hapu and Acerola got enough to get to know her. And Plumeria was directly responsible for putting her in danger and almost killing Nebby. She felt responsible, especially after seeing how Lillie was.

>Any examples?
Of what?

>you just said they showed to us
No, I didn't? I said they didn't need to show this. Seeing that requires the protagonist to stick around Kukui's house and observe. Something no one would do. So it was simply not possible to show this.

>something what everyone has to do
No, it's something everyone SHOULD do. There's a difference there. And I never called her "outstandingly" nice. Just nice. She cause a lot of problem for everyone still, even if it was unintentional and for Nebby.

>Any examples?
Yes. Literally everything. Tell me, in saving Nebby, what DID MC actually do, other than protect Lillie? Lillie was the one who collected everything needed to finally evolve Nebby again. MC just protected her.

>any examples of addressing her "flaws"
Let's see, from the very first moment where she was physically too weak to help Nebby, to her not being a trainer because she was unable to see Pokemon get hurt due to being exposed to seeing Pokemon get hurt at a young age, to her lack of knowledge of world in general, to her lack of confidence in herself which severally limited her, which did you miss?

>keep that poor thing in that freakin small bag
A bag he stays in. The bag isn't binding him. Proven by how he literally breaks out every other scene. He stays in the bag on his own.

Actually, anon. I give up. I'm not trying to act superior, I just don't care enough to continue. And this format is annoying. And I'm literally just describing the game, which is boring.

>>32729503
Thanks, now I think I understand why I perfer characters like N and AZ over Lillie.

>>32729503
>N is presented as an antagonist (not to be confused with a villain)
Can you explain this?

I would answer that anon's question with "because N was the villain you needed to beat and save everyone from, not the one you needed to side with and protect". Because that is true, isn't it? He was the one threatening the peace, the one leading the criminal organization, thus, he was the villain. Am I wrong in saying that? You're clearly just calling him opposition, not evil. Which is something I can't understand why you would do so.

>>32724654
So somebody explain to me why this artist wanted people to salivate over a 12 year-old's legs and ass. Or why he drew her with a facial expression that oozes vulnerability.

>>32729533
N was the antagonist
Ghetsis was the villain, and the one leading the criminal organisation

>>32729533
Ghetsis is the villain. N is an antagonist.

>>32729567
>>32729569
You're just repeating yourself, anon. I'm asking why you're calling N JUST an antagonist, not a villain.

Even if it was unintentional, he was doing evil things. He believed it was for the best, but he wanted to force people to leave there loved ones. Hitler probably thought he was doing no evil. Lysandre actually thought he was doing a good thing. Does that make there actions not evil?
I'm just confused at this. Why would you so adamantly insist on calling N not a villain, when clearly tried to make people suffer for his selfish reasons?

>>32729503
I also feel like they handled N's dialogue a lot better.
The problem with Lillie's talks with the player character is that they feel like they should be conversations, but because one of the people involved is a silent protagonist, it feels empty. N talks a lot, but he rarely leaves room for the player character to speak; he gives exposition, asks explicit questions (which he typically answers himself), talks to other characters, talks to your pokemon, etc. It's even said in his first appearance that he talks quickly, so even if the player character wasn't silent, it's implied that N would dominate the conversation most of the time. Because of this, he can have long, complex bits of dialogue without it feeling awkward.

>>32729551
Should he fap to an actual 12-year-old instead?

>>32724654
>STOP DISLIKING WHAT I LIKE
>MUH WAIFU IS NOT SHIT
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>32729597
Not the same anon but I think the "villain" label has more to do with the morality of the situation. N may be a misguided autist but he seems to have a strong enough moral fibre. Ghetsis, on the other hand, is objectively lacking in the moral department, as his goal can't really be justified as anything more than self-gain.

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>>32726828
>she (was) sheltered as fuck and didn't have a personality.

>>32729656
Yes, he had a strong moral fiber, but it was wrong. What he believed to be right was objectively wrong. Forcing people and Pokemon to be separated from their loved ones is not right or justifiable in any way. There's no positive side to it, only negatives.

Let me ask you a question, anon. Had Ghetsis, like N, believe the world would be better under his rule, would that suddenly also make Ghetsis a not-villain? Now Ghetsis also has a strong moral fiber. He's doing what he believes to be a good thing. So anon, does it make Ghetsis not-villain?

>>32729504
>You can't just assume it.
Then why wouldn't thet tell me something that important?

>Hapu and Acerola got enough to get to know her.
No? Wha are you saying? They meet, speak like few lines and becomes the best freind. And also explain why Acerola shows her directly something as important as her father's relic and Hapu'u barely cares about you, but about Lillie.

>No, I didn't?
So Game Freak coudn't show ber most basic as an assistant! Bravo!

>No, it's something everyone SHOULD do.
You were saying this to show us how "nice" she is, but now you say it something everyone should do. Do you know what, when people can't at least do that, they are just trashes.

>Just nice.
After all this problem, "just nice" isn't enough. Evreybody can be just nice. Then why would be care more about Lillie tha anyone else? Thare are tons of NPCs, who are just nice. Wht should be focus on her?

>Saving Nebby in high bushes when it wanted to be free from Lillie, saving Nebby on the bridge, when it was surrounded by Spearows attacking it and that time, you didn't even have any Pokemons, saving Nebby by beating Lusamine, who is tormenting it.

>being a trainer because she was unable to see Pokemon get hurt due to being exposed to seeing Pokemon get hurt at a young age
But it's okay when protag is fighting and battling for you.
She mentions this the whole time, but doesn't change a little bit and when she does, she goes to Kanto.

>to her lack of knowledge of world in general
She stayed with the smartest people in Alola months and one of them was basically a Champion. This isn't lack of confidence, it's just being lazy and not having any willpower.
After all we have seen about N and Wally. You are expecting us to believe this?

>>32729504
>The bag isn't binding him.
Then why would Nebby leave the bag with crying expressions?

>Proven by how he literally breaks out every other scene.
You know, that only proves Nebby doesn't want to stay in the bag. Better question, what Pokemon on earth would stay in that bag so long?

>Actually, anon. I give up.
Actually, anon. Good decision, you can't prove something to be right, when it's false.

>>32729671
Is that what Inklings would look like as human females?

>>32729704
don't talk shit about my wife

>>32729709
Inklings are better.
An and Makoto are even better.

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Autistic arguments, I didn't read a thing, just post Lillie.

>>32729793
This is a typical Lilliefag. Can't read, is delusional and think posting Mary Sue pictures solves everything.

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>>32729838
Yup, you got that right.

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>>32729793
I'll post her ass.

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>the climax of sun/moon's plot is lillie calling her mommy a meanie doodoo head

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>>32729852
Kek. Can't believe there are faggots who unironically like and defend this shit.

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>>32729838
I actually don't care about Lillie as a character, but I like pokégirls.

>>32729852
>Great speech.

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>>32729878
You deserve to die then. She looks generic and shit, is pathetic weak and crying little bitch and annoying. Kill yourself you piece of shit with irredeemably shit taste.

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>>32729881
I KNOW RIGHT, FUCK THOSE SHITTY ADULTS

>>32729878
There were always those waifufags start to post, when the majority discussses, that she sucks.

>>32729845
>>32729878
her ass must smell like repel

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>People who have outgrown a children's franchise criticizing the story of a children's game

wanting to fuck it != good character

>>32724692
>She still has flaws in her personality,
Wrong kind of flaw dumbass

>>32729910
I'm gay, so I definitely do not want to fuck an 11 yr girl.

>>32729910
Don't try to logic with Lilliefags. They think with their dicks.

kris is a better pokegirl than lillie.

>>32729911
still a character flaw

>>32729911
>wrong kind of flaw
do you have any idea what youre talking about

I opened this thread to see waifufags be autistic, but you faggots are making those Lilliefags look like the reasonable people here. That's just fucking pathetic. At least try not speak with your flaming buttholes.

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>>32729895
I don't discriminate though, you're the only pathetic one here, caring this much.

>>32730006
No, you're the pathetic one, making even more pathetic excuses to justify you shit little waifu. Just admit you are fucking piece of shit and move on.

This is why anime Serena is leagues better

>>32730032
>anime anyone
>better than anything

>>32729671
Yes, which is why she's wearing her mom's clothes even though she ran away.

>>32730120
>lusamine
>dressing like a cheap whore
yeah sure

>>32729937
Do you?
A character flaw and a flawed character are two completely different things you retard.

>>32730135
No, Lusamine dressed Lillie "like a cheap whore". Lusamine picked them out, they're her clothes.

>>32730153
now this is shitposting

>>32730153
Thanks for stating the obvious?

>>32730170
>he thinks that Lillie being shit is a reason for her being a good character
Holy fuck this delusion

>>32730274
what's wrong with his reasoning?

>>32729515
>people like AZ
...Uh, really? I mean, he's got a hella cool design and an interesting backstory, but he just felt like a random sidecharacter shoved in.
N is a great character, though, don't get me wrong.

>>32729628
>dogshit is better than bullshit
Shit is still shit, anon.

>>32726749
>palindrome
what

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>>32726749
>palindrome

>>32730119
whatever lillie fag