Do you think there's a point in Smogon trying to create

>>32548536
>still complaining about fairy
lol

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>>32548536
I agree with >>32548647

If you want to talk about broken, mention Ultra Beasts.

I have the controversial opinion that legendaries should not be allowed in tiers other than ones specifically devoted to them. I think there should be multiple Ubers where legends and non-legends are allowed but OU and UU and the like have all legends banned.

Game Freak fucked up when they introduced Megas. They fucked up harder when they withdrew the Mega-Evolutions of Pokemon that needed it but left it to already powerful Pokemon this generation.

Most everything wrong these days is GameFreak's fault but Smogon is gay as well.

>>32548679
But there's busted non-legends. And there's shitty legends.

Something being given a special title means fuckall when it comes to balance.

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>>32548679
>Ban legends from OU and UU

Thank you! Get the ayy lmao's and tiger of healthy meta out of there.

>>32548720
>But there's busted non-legends
No there isn't. Name them.

>And there's shitty legends.
No there isn't. Name them.

>>32548734
Don't forget lava lizard.

>>32548738
Or lava toad, rather.

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>>32548738

>>32548738
There are legends that are pretty bad like Regice, and Moltres. Which would be unfortunate if they were banned to ubers where they would never see use, but I think that's a small price to pay.

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>>32548750
Mind Reader + Sheer Cold
Through in a baton pass'd Double Team.
It's rulesets that restrict a lot of Pokemon's potential.

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>>32548754
How is Regice bad? I'm willing to let Moltres slide for now.

>>32548756
*throw

>>32548763
slow defensive ice type without recovery
what the fuck is there to explain?

>>32548763
Regice isn't so much bad as it is underwhelming.

>>32548771
using Regice with weakness policy is funny

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>>32548771
>what the fuck is there to explain?
More than your tiny brain can comprehend you arrogant little shit.

What kind of non-legend, non-pseudo legend is supposed to compete with this?

>>32548679
>Ultra Beasts
Stopped reading there. There is one (1) ultra beast above B+ in OU.

>>32548773
How is it underwhelming?

My point is that brain atrophy as a result of sticking to whatever Smogon tells these wannabe competitive battlers is not an indicator of these Legendary Pokemons' real competency

>>32548794
And which is that? Why do the other one's suck in your mind?

>>32548738
>Busted non-legends
Mega Gengar
Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Lucario
Mega Blaziken

>Shitty legends
Uxie
Articuno
Diancie

Plenty of legends that are either shitty or decent. No, something being good in RU doesn't make it an amazing Pokémon.

>>32548802
how about Mesprit

>>32548791
>BST makes or breaks a Pokémon
Let's see Slaking make it to the top of OU.

Defensive ice types are garbage and you're an idiot. Legendary title doesn't mean SHIT

>>32548791
No Guard Machamp with Dynamic Punch.

>>32548791
If it's OP, then you should use it on the OU ladder. Wipe the floor with everyone, show those bitches in the 1600 ELOs who's boss.

But you do it, not me. I like my Garchomp/Gengar/Bisharp core. And I don't have to use Regice to know that it's shit.

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>>32548803
I can agree that giving already strong Pokemon mega-evolutions was a huge mistake. I don't really want to defend Pokemon like Mega-Gengar and Mega-Blaziken, but I will for the sake of argument.

Look at pic related. Even a mon as underrated as Torterra can counter it. I imagine there are plenty of others like Rhyperior or even Excadrill that can challenge Mega-Gengar due to its lack of Levitate.

>Uxie and Mesprit
>>32548808

Uxie is a support / Doubles mon as far as I can see. I may be able to agree that it's not broken or busted, but I wouldn't admit right away that it's bad. This likely applies to Mesprit as well.

>>32548738
Do you even play Pokemon?
Busted non legendaries
>Blaziken
>aigeslash
>greninja
>Megamom

shitty legends
>the regis
>moltres
>articuno
>entei

>>32548802
Celesteela. The fact you don't even know this makes me think you have no idea about what you're taking about or know anything about the current meta.
Nihilego isn't great because it gets hard walled by the 10+ viable steel types in the tier. Kartana has garbage stabs and low bp moves and is retardedly frail on the special side. Buzzwole is a tank that can't tank very effectively with a bad defensive typing. Xurkitree is slow, has no good coverage moves, and is only viable in baton pass teams.

>>32548811
>BST
I was clearly pointing to one specific stat.

Slaking is/was a beast in Doubles.

>Defensive ice types are garbage
Why is that? Spoonfeed me here. I don't understand your point of view, and I'm willing to consider it seriously if you're able to expound on it.

>>32548842
Celesteela is the coolest UB

>>32548827
>If it's OP, then you should use it on the OU ladder.
You must be late to the party here. My whole argument is that Legendaries should be banned from OU.

>>32548843
>weak to common attacking types
>only resistance is itself
>weak to sr

>>32548843
It's weak to some of the best attacking types right now in Steel, Rock, and Fire.
It's weak to the #1 move in Singles, Stealth Rock
Literally one resistance, and that's to its own type.
Weak to Bullet Punch, which is very common in OU and UU due to the fairy menace

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>>32548838
You're retarded for a whole host of other reasons, including claiming that Regice (practically a shitmon) is overpowered, but:
>guaranteed to die if it switches into Gengar, slower, doesn't trap, and can't get around Destiny Bond
>somehow a counter

You obviously don't play Pokemon so please leave.

>>32548838
No fucking shit a Pokémon that learns Earthquake can kill Mega Gengar. But Torterra isn't good for doing much else.

And you're using the term "counter" incorrectly. Torterra cannot switch into Mega Gengar and proceed to threaten it - one, because you can't switch out due to Shadow Tag, and two, even if you did somehow manage to switch in you get 2HKO'd by either STAB into Sludge Bomb.

Please don't argue about balance when you have no fucking idea of what you're talking about

>Uxie is a doubles/support mon
It's a shittier Mew which isn't that amazing in the first place.

>>32548843
>Slaking is a beast in Doubles
No it is not. Will never see use in anything other than Battle Spot versus some nine-year-old clicking random buttons.

>Why is a Pokémon that has zero recovery, one resistance, and a gorillion weaknesses bad???
do you think before you make posts?

Even with reliable recovery and an amazing defense stat - Avalugg - ice is SHIT as a defensive typing. It's 1000% built for offense.

>>32548791
>What kind of non-legend, non-pseudo legend is supposed to compete with this?
Chansey? Blissey?

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>>32548802
>>32548802

There are quite a few reasons why Regice falls as one of the worse options in a more unrestricted tier (like OU) where incredibly powerful legendaries, such as Kyogre, are banned:

1. Regice suffers from Ice typing, not only causing it to have numerous weaknesses and few resists, but also taking 25% from Stealth Rock upon switch-in.

2. Regice has no reliable recovery; this means it cannot recover well through moves such as Recover and must rely on either Leftovers or Rest, the latter of which is not a very good option for a mon that cannot keep advantage during those rest turns in ways CroCune can.

>Can Regice take hits well?

Certaintly can special hits, to some degree
>252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 102-121 (28 - 33.3%) -- 93.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not excellent for a wall, however
>252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice in Psychic Terrain: 198-234 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However, not so well any physical chip damage, as demonstrated by a common offensive pressure/late-game cleaner Scarf Excadrill:
>252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Regice: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
or
>252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Regice: 169-199 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Blissey/Eviolite Chansey work great as walls not only because of their base stats, but because of their decent Normal typing, and Softboiled recovery.

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>>32548756
>this pokemon would be good if i was allowed to use this shitty broken strategy!! smogon is ruining my bros!!

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>>32548818
Good answer.

>>32548842
>Celesteela. The fact you don't even know this
I never said I didn't know the answer. I've played the beasts before and I know that that's one of the hardest to beat.

You didn't mention Guzzlord nor Pheremosa, so I assume you agree they're fine?

That's a lot to reply to, so I'll only do Nihilego since you make the best case for it's not being OP. This should show similar counter-cases could be made for the rest of the Beasts of their not being so bad.

I haven't played in many months now, but I see that Metagrossite has been banned from PS! So you have regular Metagross, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill as examples of what you were talking about.

Yes, it cannot do anything against them under normal circumstances. But Pheremosa is in Ubers and would theoretically get walled out by Flying types. But there aren't as many Flying types currently prominent in the meta, so it doesn't face this challenge. But why is there a predominance of steel types in OU? That's a question to consider, but it probably wouldn't be the case if legends were banned. at least 3 of the number of steel types in OU are legendaries: Jirachi, Heatran, Celesteela, etc.

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>>32548921

>But what if I run an offensive variant with Rock Polish?

Regice might be able to pull this off with a Sticky Web team, as its speed tier is very underwhelming, at 50 base, which is 199 invested at Modest, reaching a tenuous 398 base Speed which most Pokemon at +1 (and thus scarfers) can outspeed. This is not to mention the fact that even after a Rock Polish and with BoltBeam coverage, it cannot threaten much without boosting.

TL;DR: Regice is suffers because of its poor recovery and typing, which leaves it vulnerable to hazards, VoltTurn cores, and any kind of offensive pressure. Its offensive possibilities are underwhelming, and I challenge you to use Regice and win, even versus a team with no legendaries. Magnezone is certainly not a legendary, and cannot handle it well nonetheless.

I love Regice's design, no hate towards the mon itself, but be reasonable here. If you want to seriously learn, we can have a quick battle on Showdown and you can attempt to use Regice. You can bring all the legendaries you desire if you wish, unless you want to just restrict this to Regice, as long as they are not Uber. Then, we can see if regular mons truly cannot stand up to these Pokemon given legendary status.

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>>32548738
>No there isn't. Name them.

Hello darkness my old friend.....

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>>32548840
>Do you even play Pokemon?
For over a decade.

None of the non legendaries you mentioned are busted except for maybe Mega-Kanghaskhan.

I've already addressed the birds and a Regi. Entei isn't as good as other legends but it's not shitty.

>>32548961

playing Pokemon casually != laddering and winning games

>>32548933
>You didn't mention Guzzlord nor Pheremosa, so I assume you agree they're fine?
I didn't mention guzzlord because it's a garbage pokemon. It's a worse blissey with worse stats, worse defensive typing, and no recovery.
Pheromosa was obviously banned so I didn't feel the need to mention that.
>But Pheremosa is in Ubers and would theoretically get walled out by Flying types.
No, because Pheromosa learns ice beam.
>But why is there a predominance of steel types in OU?
Because steel is a broken typing with 10 resistances

>>32548961
Shit dude, just because it can hit hard doesn't mean it isn't shitty. Cranidos can hit hard and it's pretty bad.

All of those busted mons are busted it doesn't matter what obscure counters exist they're still busted.

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>>32548756
>Mind Reader + Sheer Cold
What a fucking meme.

Outside of Smogon made-up rules, there's nothing stopping players from using this on the Battle Spot playing on-cartridge. Oh, except for that it's shit. That's why you don't see Articuno anywhere on any kind of Battle Spot leaderboards.

There's almost no functional difference between that strategy and using Sky Attack. Nobody is going to just sit there while Articuno, one of the worst-typed Pokemon in the game, jerks off doing nothing for one turn and telegraphs that you should switch out if you can't 2HKO it for some inexplicable reason.

I've dicked around with Baton Pass Minimize Drifblim and both Sheer Cold+Resttalk Suicine and Articuno on rating battles before. It's one of those memey things that only works some of the time, and turns the game into a coin flip. You don't get high ranked by playing inconsistent meme Pokemon.

Same with dumb random shit like Drapion and Bibarel on Battle Spot, which can win you the game by themselves 10% of the time, but the rest of the time cost you the game by being dead weight.

>>32548976
Steel would be way more balanced if it wasn't resistant to, say, Normal. Everybody and their mom learns Return at the very least, so it would be a huge nerf imo.

>>32548536
>Do you think there's a point in Smogon trying to create a balanced metagame in Pokemon's current state?
In a way no, cause it's obvious that Gamefreak stopped caring about balance a long time ago, seeing as "patch notes" only come out every 3-4 years and that they stopped giving a shit about Singles format, but it is also nice to have formats where lesser Pokemon get to shine.

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>>32548987
>dumb random shit like Drapion
>he doesn't like Citizen Snips

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>>32548862
>>32548901
Let's take Avalugg and Cryogonal as examples then.

It goes without saying that one is meant to be a physical wall and the other a special wall. It must be further said that one is meant to be powerful, and the other fast. And finally, one of the complaints earlier ITT was a lack of recovery moves, but both Cryo and Aval have Recover.

>Weak to Bullet Punch
Yes, but Avalugg can tank Bullet Punch. Let's say we're dealing with Scizor. It absolutely can take that hit. But as far as dishing something out, it can only do Earthquake, and because of the Bug typing, nothing significant happens. When it comes to Metagross and Excadrill, it will barely live perhaps, but it will live, and Earthquake will do a good parting shot. And then you have a Pokemon like Scrafty and its High Jump Kick. Use Avalanche.

Those are the worst case scenarios. It's not defenseless in all of them, though you are correct that they aren't stellar. But you should be switching thes Pokemon out when they get faced with their type nemeses like you would any other Defensive pokemon. Do you let Ferrothorn go toe to toe with Blaziken? You shouldn't. it's the same thing.

>>32548994
I LOVE Citizen Snips.

When Drapion does work, he's fun as hell. But he's inconsistent and therefore not technically very good.

>>32548862
>>32548901
In theory, Ice is one of the worst Defensive types. But in practice, GameFreak has done a decent job of counteracting that with the appropriate move and stat gifts. Fighting is another supposedly shit defensive type that's resistant to Stealth Rocks but has no such saving graces.

>>32548905
>guaranteed to die if it switches into Gengar
What, Torterra? See the pic related. it survives Gengar potentially is Shadow Ball is used instead of Sludge Bomb on switch in. Torterra was probably the worst example I could use. I mentioned a potentially better one like Rhyperior.

>You're retarded
no u

>>32548911
>No fucking shit a Pokémon that learns Earthquake can kill Mega Gengar.
Okay, then I'm curious what you have to say against my argument. Almost everything can learn Earthquake; hence, a lot of Pokemon can deal with Mega-Gengar.

>But Torterra isn't good for doing much else.
Debatable but irrelevant here.

>one, because you can't switch out due to Shadow Tag
Shadow Tag is not in effect until the turn after it Mega-Evolves. So you can switch in on regular Gengar.

>and two, even if you did somehow manage to switch in you get 2HKO'd by either STAB into Sludge Bomb.
That's a good point. As I said just a little earlier now, Torterra is a bad example, but there are better Pokemon that illustrate my earlier point, that Mega-Gengar is not that busted and can be countered under normal circumstances. Take Blissey for another bad example. Good at walling, bad at killing. Tyranitar is an example of a Gengar counter.

>No it is not.
So I added "/was" in there to be safe, because I know less about competitve Doubles than I do Singles. But I was referencing Skill Swap in case you were unaware. I hope you didn't forget that exists.

>>32548949
Phione is equivalent to a baby-mon. It's an exception to the rule

Look man. If you seriously think these pokemon are good, use them and try and get to top 50 on the ladder or win OUPL.
Maybe then you'll understand.

>>32549023
>it survives Gengar potentially if Shadow Ball is used instead of Sludge Bomb on switch in.
No, it still dies to the next attack.
Unless BOTH Shadow Ball and the next Sludge Bomb roll the minimum possible damage (99.2%) and don't activate any secondary effects by some unholy miracle.

Rhyperior dies 100% of the time switching into Mega Gengar, unless it's specially defensive (lol) in which case it still dies 100% of the time if Gengar has Focus Blast

>>32549073
He really should.

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>>32548921
>>32548939
>>32548976
>>32548987
At any rate, I didn't want to take over the thread with this. I appreciate the lengthy replies.

To get back to the OP question, my point was that if you take at least whatever Legendaries are in OU right now, if you removed them, the meta would look different, and specifically more diverse. It would also be less frustrating to deal with in general.

If you disagree with me, then whatever.

>>32549023
>sending out a physical tank out to a special sweeper

Ever did the calcs?

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>all these people who don't know shit about pokemon

>>32549085
>No, it still dies to the next attack.
Another anon made that clearer to me.

>if Gengar has Focus Blast
That's an If, but in those cases, I'll agree it's very hard to deal with.

I was defending it for the sake of argument, but you have made too good points. but like I stated earlier, Mega evolutions were a mistake, especially for Pokemon already good like Gengar.

>>32549057
>Shadow Tag is not in effect until the turn after it Mega-Evolves. So you can switch in on regular Gengar.
Nothing prevents Gengar from switching out and coming back to trap later, aside from Pursuit. So basically you are restricted to Muk, Tyranitar and if you want to rely on a risky 50/50, Bisharp as effective options to kill Gengar before it can perform its designated role and remove a key member of your team without consequences.

>>32549057
>Okay, then I'm curious what you have to say against my argument. Almost everything can learn Earthquake; hence, a lot of Pokemon can deal with Mega-Gengar.

Broken Pokemon do not cease to be broken just because there are a handful of shitmons that can take them out if the situation is perfect for them to do so. Choice Scarf Cloud Nine Golduck with Ice Bean can reliably check Mega Fug, should we move Golduck up to OU and Mega Fug down to NU because of that?

>>32548997
Yes, but Ferrothorn doesn't lose 25% by switching back in.
And with Scizor, the most common set is Bullet Punch, Swords Dance, Superpower, and either U-Turn or Knock Off. If we assume that the Scizor is holding the most used item on Scizors outside of OU, Life Orb, and that the Avalugg is the only Avalugg set in Singles, then a +2 LO Superpower WILL 1 Shot it. If you do switch out, then whatever switches in needs to deal with a +2 Scizor, and there's not much that can.
And how about instead of Scrafty, we use a better HJK user, Mega Medicham? Mega Medicham oneshots with HJK AND has Fake out to break Sturdy.
And Torterra, even with a Jolly Nature and 252+ speed gets outsped by neutral nature 252 Megengar and 2shot, so it can't switch in at all. It's not a counter, or even a check. Hell, if it's running HP Ice for whatever reason, our good friend Torterra gets one shot. Tyranitar is a bit better, but it still gets donked by Focus Blast, and there's only a 50% chance to OHKO on the switch with Pursuit.

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>>32549096

>>32549124
>Choice Scarf Cloud Nine Golduck with Ice Bean can reliably check Mega Fug, should we move Golduck up to OU and Mega Fug down to NU because of that?
That's not even what I had in mind nor was implied by my post dude.

>>32549057
>Almost everything can learn Earthquake; hence, a lot of Pokemon can deal with Mega-Gengar.
They have to be able to actually USE it, Anon.

>Tyranitar is an example of a Gengar counter.
Since Mega Gengar is banned by Smogon rules, we'll assume Battle Spot. Almost all Gengars on-cart have Focus Blast since you need more type coverage when you only get to bring 3 mons. Only scenario where he won't run it is if he has a fighting-type ally.

Tyranitar is slow and quadruple weak to fighting. I'll let you mull that one over for a bit.

Off the top of my head, Sableye can fuck him up, I guess? There's a reason Smogonfags decided to ban Gengar, though. He's a real pain in the ass.

>>32549133
It bears repeating, M-Gengar WILL have Focus Blast in the format he is allowed in.

This is the worst "competitive" thread you faggots ever pulled out, Jesus Christ this is PAINFUL to read. I can't believe people are justifying Articuno being overpowered with fucking Lock-On Sheer Cold and trying to make points with "lol look Gengar can get 1KO by Earthquake xD"

Mother of God.

>>32549093
there really shud be a **BREEDABLE** only format if you cant breed the pokemon it should NOT be allowed

>>32549128
>2shot
I conceded that
>still gets donked by Focus Blast
I conceded that
>>32549117
>Yes, but Ferrothorn doesn't lose 25% by switching back in.
All I will say in response is that Stealth Rocks isn't a given. Mega-Medicham indeed one shots Avalugg without Sturdy and I'll just assume what you say about Superpower is true.

>>32549057
>Shadow Tag is not in effect until the turn after it Mega-Evolves. So you can switch in on regular Gengar.
So you can counter Mega Gengar exactly once per match? That's not very useful. It will just switch out the first time, and the next time it comes in it will have no counters because you can't switch out.

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>>32549168
It's just one guy (me) you retarded faggot.

Learn to read.

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This is my team. It is full of powerful legendary pokemon! I will be use my overpoweredness to reach the top of the OU ladder! Everyone else will cry and whine and be salty that I'm using cheap, overpowered stuff, but I'll just laugh and go, "Git gud, noob!" Smogontards and top pokemon youtubers will beg me to know what my secret strategy is, but I'll never tell them.

Then, after that, I'll win The Pokemon World Championship, win the trophy, win a date with Ms. Pokemon and make love to her all night long! I'm a Pokemon Master! And my childhood dreams will all come true! Yeah!

>>32549183
I don't give a shit, commit suicide you moronic faggot, stop trying to talk about shit you don't understand.

>>32549187
>Uses NFE and repeated types as an argument
Totally fair.

>>32549093
>>32549093

Hello friend, I am >>32548921 >>32548939

I am glad you appreciate the work I put into my post, it can be hard to cram a lot of nuances without it sounding like jargon. I hope you reconsider whether or not all legendaries are unable to be dealt with by non-legends.

As for your concern on legendaries in OU, it is an interesting concept. I do think that especially after gen 4, legendary presence has intensified. This is really more of a subjective judgment as to whether or not legendaries are an eyesore, since it will not affect much except pokemon choice.

The general concept behind the Overused/Uber tiers is that anything that is too broken gets sent to the Uber banlist, and it is blind to any designated labels the fanbase or GameFreak lay on them. Thus, it makes a fairly pure separation through play and suspect tests, which are democratic. This is a philosophy that works fairly well when it comes to competitive battling, and especially when you consider that not all legendaries can compete with each other equally; does Regirock really belong up there with Primal Groudon? Many subdivisions of Uber would be necessary, and this leads to my next point:

Ironically, doing so would probably cause people to criticize that metagame for being so restricting in disallowing Pokemon which have no objectively good reason for not being used in regular competitive play. It would be interesting as an alternate fun format, but currently the paradigm swings towards the idea that all Pokemon should be tested blindly, which has worked.

As for diversity, the meta has been diverse despite legendary inclusion. One can easily find laddering with unique or UU/RU mons such as Druddigon, Raikou, and even Simisage in OU. One only needs to craft the team correctly and play well. Even with no legendaries, you will always have the top contenders clamoring for the top, with suspect tests for mons like Aegislash and Protean Greninja. I suggest you think this through.

>>32549173
>>2shot
>I conceded that
>>still gets donked by Focus Blast
>I conceded that
>>>32549117
I'm gonna be honest here, I spent like half an hour making calcs and checking movesets for the mons I referenced.
>Stealth Rocks isn't a given
In singles they are, unless you're battling at 500 ELO somehow.
That said, >>32549169 has a really good idea, with exceptions for Nidoqueen and maybe Type: Null and Silvally

>>32549141
Your shitty 'point' was that Mega Gengar isn't OP because "lots of stuff can learn earthquake," which essentially means that you think that any mon can be defeated by any other mon as long as the latter mon carries a super effective move. My post showed how retarded that line of thinking was.
And if that wasn't your point, then your arguing skills are shit.

>>32548536
Kind of unrelated, but I hate how smogon misuses the term broken. Almost none of the Pokemon they ban actually "break" the game in any way.

Just call it overpowered like everyone else.

>>32549133
You're showing Mega Gengar being attacked. Show it attacking Rhyperior.

>>32549199
I understand the purpose of OU and where it stands in relation to its adjacent tiers and their purposes. What I've never understood is how these bans of non-legends are justified or maintained. I haven't seen ladder matches that highlight how unbalanced Garchomp was in Gen 4 OU, or how unbalanced Blaziken was in Gen 5. If I did, my opinion would likely change.

A point I was trying to make but didn't come out is that a normal Pokemon like Blaziken or Garchomp is relatively easy to deal with for a legendary like Mewtwo or Rayquaza, or one of the lower tiered Legendaries as an appropriate counter. But those Legendaries are not as easy to deal with by less overpowered normal Pokemon as supposedly overpowered normal Pokemon are for said less overpowered ones.

>One can easily find laddering with unique or UU/RU mons such as Druddigon
One of my claims I can't necessarily prove is that Pokemon like Druddigon would be more viable if it weren't for Legendaries that are hard for it to deal with keeping it out. This is a big fault with GameFreak that they don't balance Pokemon as well as they could.

>Even with no legendaries, you will always have the top contenders clamoring for the top, with suspect tests for mons like Aegislash and Protean Greninja.
I don't think those two are quite that bad but I see where you're coming from. I'll leave it at that, because we'd get into more argument.

>>32549204
>I'm gonna be honest here, I spent like half an hour making calcs and checking movesets for the mons I referenced.
I appreciate the effort. Let me just say then that you are right for whatever I conceded.

>>32549232
Look at the percentages next to Gengar's moves. That's it attacking.

>>32549232
Nevermind, it gets beaten by Rhyperior anyway.

>>32549219
You tried to strawman me with a silly and uncommon example of a Choice Scarf'd Golduck with Ice Beam. I wanted something more common and plausible like a Torterra with Earthquake.

Your arguing skills are shit. Being uncharitable with your opponent is one of the worst offenses.

>>32549256
The fact that you think Torterra is a "common" mom, and the fact that you still think it's a plausible M-Gar check after 5 different anons have shown why it isn't just goes to show how freaking little knowledge of the Pokemon metagame you have. The counterpoint I provided isn't any more insipid than yours, I just changed the mons being compared.
If you want your arguments to be treated with "charity," take some time to actually learn something about the damn game before you make ridiculous threads like this.

>>32549220
>Almost none of the Pokemon they ban actually "break" the game in any way.
They break the balance of the tier they're banned from.

Banned pokes aren overpowered, they're absolutely essential.

>>32549236
>Gen 4 Garchomp
All teams had to be built around (mostly likely) having, and countering Garchomp because he was the single best Pokemon back then.

That being said, and even with Garchomp unbanned, Gen 4 had the most balanced metagame of all time. You could still use a bunch of obscure mons in OU while standing a decent chance of winning.

You know, before all the power creep kicked in.
Fuck BW and stupid weather wars + busted hidden abilities.

>>32549286
The key word there was "like [a Torterra]" friend. Sorry you missed it.

Take a non-legendary in OU (or maybe UU) with a STAB Earthquake. Barring Focus Blast, which has already been conceded, it just might check Mega-Gengar. I have also already conceded the fact it'll just switch out and trap something else in the future.

>The counterpoint I provided isn't any more insipid than yours, I just changed the mons being compared.
Mega-Gengar against Mega-Rayquaza isn't a fair comparison, child.

>>32549304
>Mega-Rayquaza
Just Ice Beam it bro :^)

>>32549236
The reason Garchomp was Ubers in gen 4 is that it had an amazing speed tier for the time, and a nigh unresisted STAB combo. The only thing that resisted both STABs was Skarmory, and it could chunk that with Fire Blast. Weavile was one of the few things that could be considered a counter, but it lost to Scarf Chomp. That, combined with the fact that it's only ability increased evasion in sand during Sand: The Meta, made it too strong for OU to handle.

>>32549303
So the lesson was that you can't have a Pokemon centralizing the gameplay, right? Well, Smogon is telling me that 10+ non-legendary Pokemon are somehow capable of centralizing the gameplay in the same way Garchomp did. I don't buy that. I suspect it's a lot of undue whining that occurs from the player base that ends up making these unnecessary contemporary bans.

I also hate the power creep, very much. I personally don't find Pokemon as enjoyable anymore, but I still like talking about it (if I can find sensible people to talk to, which is rare).

>>32549334
*comparatively unnecessary contemporary bans
excuse me

>>32549304
>Mega-Gengar against Mega-Rayquaza isn't a fair comparison, child.
Dude those are 2 of the strongest pokemon in in AG.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/anything-goes-resources.3591711/#post-7171201

>>32549342
Mega-Rayquaza is undoubtedly harder.
>>32549314

>>32549304
Torterra isn't OU or even UU. It's PU, because it's trash. If you were talking about OU or UU mons, then actually mention a OU or UU mon.
Either way, you (still!) have no idea what you are talking about. Any OU or UU mon with EQ can't "potentially" check MGar, because a check needs to have more than a super effective move. It needs to be able to actually survive long enough against MGar to actually use that move. There are very few mons that can reliably do that, which is why MGar is in Ubers. On the other hand, there are plenty of things that can reliably check and counter legends like Regice and Regigigas, which is why those are languishing in PU with Torterra where they belong.
Also, Mega Fug being stronger than MGar doesn't change that fact that your argument was a joke, you fucking autist.

>>32548803
But anon, Uxie is actually a pretty nice lead. Plus, Mesprit is way worse.

Honestly, I think their attempts at "balancing" are just making the metagame more unbalanced

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>>32549357
I said earlier that it was one of the worst examples I could use. Pulling of an argument with a bad example is a sign of the argument's strength. That didn't work, as I've also admitted.

It's clear that you just want to be right above all else so I have nothing more to say to you.

>>32549360
That doesn't even make sense. You just want everything to be like AG?

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>>32549334
>10+ non-legendary Pokemon are somehow capable of centralizing the gameplay in the same way Garchomp did

Use your brain, my man.
Garchomp was only ONE mandatory Pokemon, but when you have 10 guys who are all DA BES by a wide margin, that leaves no room for other Pokemon to do anything but be shittier versions of those guys and get totally assblasted by those guys.

High ranking teams will always be made up of configurations of those same Pokemon, barring extremely rare rogue sets. Just look at any recent Pokemon championship (which don't allow "major" Legendary Pokemon or event mons, regardless of how shitty they actually are).

This is what a world of no bans looks like.
Granted I only play on-cart, not a Smogonfag. But I get why they do it.

>>32549370
Not quite, I just think that they can get a little ban-happy sometimes.

>>32549366
It doesn't matter whether or not Torterra was a bad example, because your point was a shitty one regardless of what example you used. And that's because you have no idea what a check or a counter actually is. But that doesn't surprise me, because you're yet another dumbfuck that thinks a mon is automatically good because it's got a meaningless "legendary" title.
Quitting while you're behind is the first intelligent think you've done on this thread. Congrats.

>>32549357
An actual check to Mega Gengar is, for example, a post-transformation Ash-Greninja, who can outspeed and kill with Dark Pulse

>>32549382
>Use your brain, my man.
Right back at ya. Your pic related is mostly legendaries, which for the hundredth time, I am NOT in favor of. Your posting it favors my argument.

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>>32549370
>You just want everything to be like AG?
I do, but just without legendaries. That'd be sweeet.

>>32549386
The bans are voted on and stuff that gets banned has a reason behind it. People that aren't extremely knowledgeable in the smogon meta usually won't understand why it is done, but most of the people that can meet the requirements to vote (the requirements to vote can pretty much be summed up to "win a certain % of matches in 70 games") will vote for it to be banned because the pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame. The most recent example is Mega Metagross, who got banned because it only had two decent switchins that can fit on offensive teams; Mega Scizor and Rocky Helmet Tangrowth. When Mega Metagross was allowed, nearly every team ran both of those pokemon or those own Megagross so that they wouldn't auto lose to Megagross. So Megagross was deemed unhealthy and b&.

>>32549396
Fuck man, you know what I meant. I don't care about the legendary thing, you didn't seem to understand how the game could centralize around a pool of 10 mons.

The Smogon equivalent with all non-legends unbanned would look just as repetitive.

>>32549415
And so the cycle continues, as every Pokemon that previously could have countered the newest overpowered threat was already banned.

>>32549396
Legendary is literally a meaningless title in terms of competitive.
Give me a solid reason as to why something like -Garchomp is less banworthy than Regice despite being more usable, having a higher BST, a better movepool, better stat distribution, etc.

>>32549423
Nice meme.
Broken pokemon should not be kept to check other broken pokemon.
Of course this is a shitpost thread so you don't get anymore (You)s from me.

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>>32549417
>you didn't seem to understand how the game could centralize around a pool of 10 mons.
Apologies, I should have specified and thought it went without saying that I didn't have in mind legendaries. I was saying I don't see how we have 10+ Garchomps these days, Pokemon that dominate every team and every other Pokemon. It's literally impossible since we have a 6 mon team limit. A diversity of superb Pokemon versus a monopoly of one superb Pokemon is obviously not the same situation and doesn't necessarily warrant the same response.

>The Smogon equivalent with all non-legends unbanned would look just as repetitive.
We'll agree to disagree.

>>32549423
I bet you didn't even get reqs to vote on the last suspect

>>32549415
But doesn't that just lead to a constant cycle of people finding out that one thing is OP under the current rules, everyone starts running it on their team, people start getting upset because they keep losing to it, leading to it getting banned, only for people to discover something else that's OP under the current rules and repeating the same process over again?

>>32549396
>Banning all pokemon based on an arbitrary grouping by a title
Alright Donald, In your perfect world what happens to psuedos, which have better stats than many Legendaries?

>>32549445
That's exactly what I'm saying. Hopefully someone else putting it in a less cryptic form will allow vindictive knuckleheads like
>>32549434
>>32549442
to understand better.

>>32549434
Are all banned Pokemon really broken? Or were they just banned because noobs can't figure out how to counter them?

>>32549451
Considering you literally need to be a good player to fucking vote for the ban, I'd say not.

>>32549431
I don't want to get into huge arguments.

But to answer your question, it doesn't have any stat above 150 and it's legitimately vulnerable to a relatively common check in Ice Beam.
Just to answer your question.

>>32549454
Actual good players, or good players under Smogon's rules? Because there is a difference.

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>>32549447
They stay.

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>>32549457
Shuckle has not one, but TWO stats above 150. It also doesn't have a double weakness! Why hasn't this behemoth been banned yet?

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I give credit to whoever is responsible for event Pokemon for not releasing complete madness

>>32548679
Dude, I get what you mean. I feel like even though legendaries aren't necessarily game-breakingly good they just feel cheap somehow.

>>32549457
So what do we do about Chansey and Blissey? Or Rampardos? Maybe even Ninjask, it has base 160 speed or some shit.

>>32549457
What? Not having a stat above 150 and a double weakness is now your criteria?
Then what the fuck is Landorus-Incarnate doing up there?

>>32549445
Not that guy, but there comes a point where the power disparity becomes not that great. think of it like this:

4th strongest guy is a pretty ripped muscle guy
3rd strongest guy is a super ripped muscle guy
2nd strongest guy, we'll call him Blaziken, is on roids
1st strongest guy, Mega Fug, has a gun

Even if someone will always be the strongest, if we ban the guys with guns the rest can actually stand a chance wrestling now.

I honestly think this person is baiting. Why I'm replying is beyond me.

>>32549458
Where?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/members/bluecookies.12367/

>>32549473
*Except V create Rayquaza I guess but i'll let that slide

>>32549457
A lot of newer legendary Pokemon actually fall into this, minor and major

>>32549459
So you just want to ban Pokémon based on in-game lore?

i think banning all legends would fine,even if shit like mespirit or phione are not even that great
just fair.

psuedos have better stats only garchomp is versatile and its been 10 years if you cant deal with garchomp just put down the game down

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>>32549469
Good point.

So the new question is: Why is (someone like) Shuckle okay but (someone like) Regice is not, in my view?

A proper answer would be more complex and nuanced than I the one I will now give, but it could be said that Regice is more banworthy because, like other legendaries, it has similar defensive capabilities while having greater offensive capabilities, though lesser strategic capabilities. It is capable of doing more and taking more than Shuckle is. I realize this sounds similar to supposedly broken Pokemon like Blaziken and Mega-Khan. And that is where my previous statement of no stat higher than 150 + weaknesses comes in.

>>32549486
>i'm here to suck your dick like everyone else
Smogonites in a nutshell lol

But in all seriousness, the difference is that people who know how to play under the actual game rules usually have a better chance at handling all the banned Pokemon that Smogon players are protected from

>>32549507
its been 10 years if you cant deal with mesprit just put down the game down

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>32548536

I voted no, I got to the minimum required to vote because Metagross caused a centralized (and a really calm) meta, it was technically easier to build teams.


Now with Metagross gone another steel head (Consider Bisharp or another Fast Steel type... Jesus, Even Jirachi Z-Happy hour shenanigans) has to do its work and they can't even do it completely because Metagross has this work:

Due to its coverage Blissey, Toxapex and Chansey Cannot let themselves to be in the same dance room with metagross


Top Lel and Kek needed Metagross out to start their cleanse.


The Steel typing makes it easy to change against S. Rock.

¿It is necessary to say that before Mega evolving Landorus-T cannot Intimidate him so it is basically a tough claws x4 Ice punch in the face?

>>32549509

>The actual game allowed Primal Hoenn Duo in its format.


Completely Invalid

>>32548536
Yes

>>32549509
You do realize Smogon plays a variety of metagames and not just their own right? ...Right? They've literally created different types of metas to experiment and have fun with.

This was supposed to be a thinly veiled antifairy thread but /vp/ somehow even made it more retarded.

>>32549508
Except Shuckle was UU last generation, while Regice was PU. That's because Shuckle has more physical bulk, better typing, and a more useful move set (Sticky Web ftw) Having more attack power doesn't make Regice a better mon.

>>32549526
Have you ever been to the Battle Tower or the Battle Frontier? Primal Hoenn Duo aren't allowed there. Neither are any of the other OP legendaries.

Forgot I had to be super-ultra-specific so the autists could understand.

>>32549479
>So what do we do about Chansey and Blissey?
Blissey is a better special wall than Regice but it's not as good offensively and it's significantly worse in pure Defense. It's easier for non-legendary Pokemon teams to deal with. Also, it should be noted that Regice is not being looked at in a vacuum. I'm considering the other legendaries as well that would be used in addition to or instead of Regice. The power gap widens when you go from thinking about underrated legends like Regice to uncontroversially better ones like Heatran.

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>>32549554

>Uses Frontier or tower to reference in a competitive threat

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>This thread
No wonder you niggas "dislike" Smogon. This thread is beyond sad.

>>32549562
You're just mad I'm not sucking Smogon's dick like everyone else on /vp/

>>32548536
People who follow their rules and force other people to play by them are cancer deserving of death.

Didn't they get hacked once? Wish it would happen again and this time they stay dead and gone.

This board gets dumber by the day lmao

>>32549481
>Not having a stat above 150 and a double weakness is now your criteria?
I don't have the criteria. I'm just putting something out there. I'm along these lines >>32549476

>>32549488
Yeah, like Mega-Gengar. But I've mentioned it multiple times already. I think GameFreak made big mistakes this generation that have complicated this argument I've had for years.

Why hasn't this faggot gone and reached #1 on the ladder with regice yet?

>>32549499
No. The lore just indicates an often real divide between those Pokemon and everything else. Legendaries are meant to be overpowered; but obviously some are less so than others.

>>32549570

>M-mom, If they like it they are sucking dick... R-right?

>>32549577
This

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>>32549577
We're waiting for Regicite

>>32549558
Ah yes, Blissey, very well know for being easily dealt with.

Regice is a frozen cat turd compared to Chansey/Blissey. I have to ask again, do you actually play Pokémon?

>>32549558
Regice isn't "underrated," it's garbage. It's a slow Ice type with relatively little power and no moves. Being a legendary doesn't change that, it would be just as garbage if it weren't one. Likewise, Heatran is good because it's a strong attacker with a great typing both offensively and defensively, a good ability, and an expansive movepool. Being a non-legendary wouldn't make it any worse. You've yet to give a valid reason why the legendary title (which means absolutely nothing from a competitive standpoint) somehow makes a mon overpowered.

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This is now a Regi thread.

This is proud of it's power tier of embarassing.

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>regice

>>32549599
If it wasn't a legendary (or Mega, for that matter), it would not have been as good as it is. Mewtwo as it is would not have existed if it was not a Legendary.

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>>32549603

>>32549169
>32549169

This is a great idea.

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>>32549621
That's actually cool. Added it to my /fa/ folder.

>>32549558
kek what the fuck are you talking about, it's infinitely easier to deal with Regice than it is Blissey or Chansey. Being physically defensively better than Blissey is a moot goddamn point when they're special walls. Blissey and Chansey also don't care about status, can serve as clerics for their teams, and aren't a shitty defensive Ice-type.

You're fucking delusional.

>>32549616
"As good as it is" is still shit. The fact that other legendaries are not shit is irrelevant. We're not comparing Regice with other legendaries, we're comparing it to things like Shuckle.
Again, come up with an actual reason from a competitive standpoint that legendaries as a whole (not just the broken ones) deserve to be banned.

>>32549616
>If it wasn't a legendary (or Mega, for that matter), it would not have been as good as it is.
Wouldn't be too hard to convert Heatran into a pseudo legendary

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>>32549613
I'd love to see how the screencap plays out.
I don't think it'd be capable of making me look stupid but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

>>32549579
It is a case by case basis. If you keep repeating that all Legendaries are overpowered I just don't know what to say to you.

They aren't 'less' overpowered, Pokémon like Molares, Entei, Regigigas, Meloetta, Artículo, Verizon, Regice, Phione and Artículo just aren't very good. And others, like Kyurem, Raikou, lake trio, Mew, Regirock that are decent are still less useful than other normal Pokémon and so you never see them. Your idea just doesn't work as a sweeping generalization. It's like Banning all dragon types because the best Pokémon are dragons and lore wise it's the strongest type.

>>32548738

>thinks that there is a strict correspondence between a pokemon's distinction as a legendary and it's viability

>>32548791

>thinks a good special defense automatically makes a pokémon good

>>32548838
>doesn't know what a counter is
>thinks "torterra used earthquake!" is a real argument

>>32548843

>doesn't know ice is a bad defensive type

wow surprising someone that dislikes smogon knows literally nothing about competitive pokémon and is incapable of participating in an argument because their ignorance renders them incapable of understanding other peoples' arguments. i'm sure you won't stop holding an irrational dislike of smogon and condescending to those that play its formats though

>>32549653
Please tell me you're trolling. Your stupidity is off the fucking charts and EVERYONE is telling you so.

>>32548738
>And there's shitty legends.
>No there isn't. Name them.
Regigigas,

chgeckmate, fuckwit.

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>>32549664
I'm used to people rabidly disagreeing with me.

I think I've said all I wanted to say now, so I'll let the rest of the thread take its natural course.

Thanks again to everyone who gave serious and civil responses.

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>>32548756
>mfw I can 2hko most foes with better pokemon not using gimmicks but this combo is for some reason is still being talked about

>>32549682
I feel the same way about Skill Swap Slaking/Regigigas in doubles

>>32548843
Yeah man because everyone knows that with it's fucking absurd speed, electrode is AMAZING!

Same with Steelix being a defensive juggernaut! That thing suuuuuure is OU material right my friendly autism buddy?!

>>32549680

>refusing to admit that you're wrong and continuing to hold your belief despite strong arguments otherwise

you're not maintaining your stance in the face of deisagreement, youre maintaining your stance in spite of reason.

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>>32549682
>mfw legitimate options are being derided as "gimmicks"
>2k17

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>>32549703
You think they're strong arguments, not me, and it's because you agree with the position. I do not. Neither side has made any progress so there's no point in going on, especially when they each have fully stated their cases.

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>>32549072
>moving the goal post

Stop faggot, you've been proven wrong so fucking hard that we can practically see the spaghetti falling out of your cargo shorts.

>>32549727

whatever moron, you clearly demonstrated ignorance of competitive pokémon in this thread and we're completely incapable of adequetly defending your position or refuting the points made by this that disagree with you. have fun pompously posting your opinion in every competitive thread and pompously ignoring every point made against it while

>>32549735

this post was typed so poorly that my point is practically invalidated

>>32549745
I think most people understood it anyway, anon.

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>>32548679
>>32549735
>I have the controversial opinion that legendaries should not be allowed in tiers other than ones specifically devoted to them.
>pompous

>>32549408
>Mega Gengar on every team due to guaranteeing 2 kills
>Allowed because 'legendary' means something to autismo
>Meanwhile Phione is literally deleted from the master data set of pokemon because why fucking bother at this point.
>Phione is replaced with a pile of shit as a way to honor the shithead who thought this was a good idea.

Kek, this thread almost feels like a creationist vs evolution """""debate""""".

>>32549705
>legitimate option
>first turn mind reader
>enemy switches
>not so legit

AWW FUCK HE KNOWS THE WEAKNESS TO MY STRATEGY! FUCK YOU SMOGON THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT

>>32549759

your refusal to admit that your opinion is not backed by reason and that you don't know enough about competitive pokémon to have a meaningful opinion on the topic in the first place is very arrogant and pompous. you attitude is basically "i have an opinion and it's not wrong because it's an opinion."

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>>32549773
I've given my reasons. You just don't think they're good ones. I've acknowledged good points where I've seen them.

But here. Take this. You've won the argument, since you have more people on your side than I do. Be happy.

>>32549785
Your reasons are poor and have been proven wrong already, all you're doing now is playing the victim and acting smug.
You're not only bad at this game, you're also mentally dishonest and use this facade of being "accepting" to disguise YOU CANNOT argue back.

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>>32549785

i'm so exasperated by your refusal to concede that you're wrong i need to stop posting or i'll end up angrily typing paragraphs all night, but it'll all be for nothing because you know too little about the topic to understand

>Page 3

>>32549790
It's been 4 hours. I'm tired of arguing at this point.

>>32549119
>based anon who is not retarded

>Page 4
This is an issue/frustration I have with /vp/ and 4chan in general. Topics that require discursive opinions get left to drop through the catalogue with no replies while low mental-effort fanboy and circle-jerk threads draw all the attention. Nobody ever feels like responding except to put down views they disagree with. Nobody ever contributes their own opinion to the OP, perhaps because they have nothing insightful to say or because they are afraid of having to face criticism to their view. In either case, it's pitiful.

>>32550082
faggot

>>32550082
I was going to but saw the thread got derailed by some namefag

I love thread like this. Makes me so good Gamefreak ignores the community when it comes to balance.

>>32549691
Slaking has the advantage of highest non-legendary BST. That's not really comparable.

It made sense back when Ubers consisted of nothing but Pokemon who were made to be broken (box legends) and occasional one-offs like Wobbuffet and Garchomp. Nowadays, they just need a new system to deal with the sheer amount of Pokemon.

it's a lost cause because there are too many pokemon now