>Dragon/Fighting pseudo >Worser than Flygon as a Dragon

>EVERYTHING HAS TO BE LE EBIN SWEEPER XD

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>>32474287
The design alone redeems her.

>>32474287
They didn't want to make it too broken.

And succeeded.

>worser

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I love how they gave something that immune to BOTH of their pseudo stabs in the same gen.

And yes, he is terrible.

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>>32474287
The real joke is his trial.

>Gen 7
>STILL making Pokemon with a "jack of all trades" approach

no wonder it only managed to be okay

>>32474287
Faires

>>32474294
When it has a 10/10 ebin sweper typing? Yes, it should be. Believe it or not some types are good at some roles and bad at others.

On top of having defensive stats on a offensive typing, it has no good moves to exploit it's stabs, no coverate and doesn't even has recovery.

Komoo-o is a total joke. You have to try REAL hard to fuck up a Dragon/Fighting with 600BST.

>>32474294
as opposed to what? it's not like it's a good tank with all those bad weaknesses and no recovery options.

>>32474287
The problem with Kommo-o is the lack of moves. When your best fighting type move as a fighting type yourself is fucking sky uppercut, you know something is wrong.

Now its clear that its purpose was meant to be a tank rather than a sweeper given its defenses and attack. But then why doesn't it have access to drain punch? Or any of the elemental punches for that matter? Seriously, what sense does it make for Dragonite to be able to learn all 3 of the elemental punches naturally yet the dragon/FIGHTING type can't learn even one of them in any capacity?

All it needed was Shell Smash, which it CLEARLY had at some point based on the Battle Tree, but then they decided to take it away.

>>32474355
Let's not act like moveset bloat in gen 1 wasn't a thing.

Also people seem to think that's exclusively a physical mon, for some reason.

>>32474287
Its because GF are afraid of making a Second Garchomp

See how hydreigon/goodra/Komm-o have 100 or less base speed as well plus nobody tried to shove the later Puesdo's into ubers like Chomp due to their stats+typing.

They should have minmaxed its defensive stats more. If it could take hits better and it had some way of healing itself I'd actually use it.

>>32474385
Hydreigon is pretty good, though, and on a different league than Kommo-o, despite sharing the 4x Fairy weakness

>>32474385
Hydreigon is actually decent, if you want to consider then gen it came out, gen 5 didn't had fairies, so he had a pretty strong typing back then.

>>32474395
It has better STABs and it doesn't pretend to be a defensive Pokemon.

Kommo-o's physical attack is higher than its special attack but its physical movepool is so shit that it has to run special moves anyway. And the best fighting STAB it gets on the special side is fucking focus miss.

>>32474385
Hydreigon doesn't quite fit with Goodra and Kommo-o, the problems it has now weren't there until well after it was introduced

>>32474376
>Best special STAB is Focus Miss
Yeah, no shit people would rather run it physical. Specially when it has DD and that fixes it's awful speed too.

>>32474385
>Its because GF are afraid of making a Second Garchomp
And then they turn around and create the Tapus and the super min-maxed abomination with god-tier everything that is Marshadow.

>>32474323

Dragon/Fighting is not a great offensive typing. You're still easily stopped by any fairy type since the best Kommo-O can do is a Poison Jab off 110 Attack with no other boosts. That's not to mention there are still many Steels that can take its hits.

Dragon/Ground is a superior offensive typing and neither Flygon or Garchomp are powerhouse sweepers. You could argue that Garchomp is a good offensive Pokemon, but in order to boost both its Attack and Speed to sweep it needs to run Sub + Swords Dance with Salac Berry.

There a very few Pokemon right now that can successfully pull off the traditional sweeper role like Ttar and Mence used to.

>>32474431
Just because Dragon/Ground is better doesn't mean Dragon/Fighting is unusable. It's still really fucking good.

>Fairies wall it
And? That's what coverage is for.

>Garchomp
>Not a good offensive Pokemon
(you)

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>People unironically defending this dragon piece of shit

I understand liking the design, concept or whatever, but these attempts to trying to justify "it's good" is just sad.

>>32474442

First of all, I said Garchomp is a good offensive Pokemon. I just said it can't sweep effectively. Learn to read idiot.

Also, like I said, Dragon/Fighting's best coverage in the final moveslot is Poison Jab. Without some boosting ability like Tough Claws that's not enough. Weak coverage doesn't cut it any more and you'd need something stronger like Gunk Shot, a damage boosting ability, or obscene attack.

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>>32474287
>another dragon pseudo

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>>32474442
>That's what coverage is for

>252+ Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 103-122 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

>252+ Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 242-286 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

>252+ Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 214-254 (76.1 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can't even OHKO properly a UU glass cannon sweeper like Gardevoir. Not even Choice Specs Flash Cannon can do anything reliably, not to mention the fact he is slower than every single pokemon tested against (Gardevoir test is scarf one) and gets 1KO 100% back garantee.

Kommo-o is trash.

Has the "pseudo-legendary" title ever been an official thing? I think we can't expect a Pokémon to be good just because of the 600 BST anymore. Like, at all.
It's really obvious that >>32474452 was the one meant to be actually good among the Alola mons, along with a few others. I don't think they cared about making Kommo-o good, they just thought about it as a Totem Boss (which is stupid anyway, since one out of three starters, A-Ninetales and Mimikyu trivialize it completely, but whatever)

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>>32474462
>garchomp, the click swords dance once and sweep pokemon, is not a good sweeper
get out

>>32474538
Too slow.

>>32474516
The title has never been an official thing, but it's certainly an archetype.

>>32474542
it has 102 speed, it outspeeds a fuckton of pokemon

>>32474542
>102 base speed is slow

ayy

>>32474546
>>32474547
It's outsped by a bunch of relevant scarfers, and it's unable to run scarf with Swords Dance.

>>32474538
>>32474546

It isn't sweeping with 102 Speed, and if it is, your opponent is a retarded for having such a slow team with no defensive backbone.

>>32474542
102 speed isn't slow you retarded. Stop falling for the
>hurr anything below 115 speed isn't fast
meme.

Anything above 100 is good because because the VAST majority of Pokemon are either sitting at 100 or lower.

>>32474546
Lmao get with the times grandpa 102 is mid-tier these days

>>32474560
You're not sweeping with 102 and no item.

>>32474546
And yet It's literally faster than 98% of Alola pokemon

>>32474462
>Without some boosting ability like Tough Claws that's not enough.
There's several "fixes" that Kommo-o could get. The easiest to do is to take a cue from Blaziken and receive several very high base power attacks. Even at 110 attack, High Jump Kick would let it close in on Salamence for raw damage output.

I like Kommo-o and even I know it's trash. I've had better success with Golisopod then him. He has nothing going for him. Clanging Scales is the best thing he has and it isn't even special.

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>sweeping with 102 base Speed

>>32474297
>Didn't want to make it too broken
If an absolute trainwreck trash fire counts as not too broken, it could apply to 85% of the Alolamons.

>>32474575
*he isn't even special.( I guess it can be a she too.)

>>32474572

Yes, there is still a sliver of hope for it if move tutors come around and are kind to it. As it stands it is a long way from being good.

It's best feature is Clanging Scales which would lend to a bulky special attacking set, but even then it still barely warrants a team slot.

>>32474550
>It's outsped by a bunch of relevant scarfers

like ... ???


Tapu Lele is one of the best sweepers in the game and it has fucking 95 speed. This "durr a Pokemon needs 110+ speed to be considered fast and a good sweeper" is one of the worst fucking memes on /vp/. No wonder this board is shit at competitive.

>>32474569
Wow, good thing you can use an item then you retard. And people run LO Garchomp all the time. 102 speed is great.

>>32474597
95 speed with a scarf is faster than base 102, retard.

>>32474597
>102 speed is faster than 95 scarfed
>Calls other people shit while stating something THIS wrong

l m a o

>>32474597

Tapu Lele is not a sweeper you idiot.

>>32474602
95 speed with a scarf is slower than 102 speed with a scarf :^)

>>32474622
>swords dance
>scarf
Hello, Verlisify!

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>>32474622
>Scarf Sword Dance

>>32474287
Incomplete fighting line, that's the problem.

>>32474597
>like ... ???
Kek, I challenge you to find me a single scarfer that doesn't outspeed it

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>>32474506
Anon, I was not talking about Komoo-o in specific. I was talking more about a hypothetical Dragon/Fighting that is not trash unlike Komoo-o, my argument in first place was that Dragon/Fighting was a good offensive typing wasted on the piece of trash that is Kommo-o.

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>>32474686
Oh, ok then.

And once more /vp/ proves how bad they are at competitive

>>32474287
No but she's a good waifu

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>>32474708
And a good mother.

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>>32474708
>>32474715
>female kommo-o

>>32474704
lmao someone needs to start a collage of all the dumb shit /vp/ says about competitive. scarf sd chomp top fucking kek

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>>32474723
>male Kommo-o

>>32474726
You'd run out of room just from all the "(Uber) should be OU" threads.

Kommo-o is simply two generations too late. If it were released in Gen 5 at the height of Terrakion/Keldeo/etc, it'd be great. You wouldn't even need more than Sky Uppercut because stuff like Darmanitan were outliers in terms of raw power outside of Ubers. But after Fairies came both Dragon and Fighting took a huge hit, and the power thresholds changed significantly with the introduction of megas and all sorts of minmaxed stuff. It's sorta like what happened to Gen 3 Metagross compared to Gen 5: counters were added, moves were nerfed, the meta was unkind to it and it couldn't keep up with the rest of the game. Too bad Kommo-o never even had a Gen 3 Metagross moment to begin with.

>>32474287
>Worse than Flygon as a Dragon Dance sweeper
lmao
you best be kidding nigger

>>32474602
>>32474607
You retards are illiterate. I never said 102 speed is faster than 95 with scarf.

>>32474618
Yes it is.

>>32474626
>>32474634
Garchomp isn't forced run Swords Dance.

>>32474287
Kommo-o should be retconned for being a worthless piece of shit. No amount of buffs can save it from being a piece of shit.

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>>32474602
>>32474607
>>32474618
>>32474569
>>32474562
>>32474553
>>32474550
This board can't be this fucking stupid.

>>32474971
Thats all true though.

>>32474287
>Worser than Flygon as a Dragon Dance sweeper

That's because his niche lies in being a Substitute Belly Drum Salac Berry sweeper. It cheeses the Super Battle Tree Singles like you have no idea, to the point the only thing it would actually need to be even better is fuckin' Drain Punch.

But yeah, don't use it as a DD/SD/Choice/Mixed sweeper. Every other dragon ever can do that sort of thing better.

>>32475165
No it's not.

>>32475179
Which one of those posts is false? That's right. None of them.

>>32474355
Wait for Shell Smash tutor in next game.

>>32474420
Clanging Scales should also base damage off the physical Attack stat while doing special damage.

>>32474971
>everyone else is stupid! Not me though lol!

>>32474971
Embarrassing

>>32474971
Here you chimp, do the calcs yourself.

Lv 100 Jolly Chomp max speed: 333 Speed
Lv 100 Timid Lele max speed: 317 Speed

Choice Scarf gives 50% more speed. Do the math and see for yourself, nigger.

>>32475165
No.

>>32474618
>>32474569
>>32474562
>>32474553
>>32474550
Are wrong.

>>32474602
>>32474607
Just can't read and their posts nothing to do with the other guy's point that 102 speed is good.

>>32475393
Seems that way.

>>32475808
Oh hey, another illiterate!

Not once has someone in this thread said "unscarfed Garchomp outspeeds Tapu Lele with scarf"

>>32474851
>UH WHAT >RELEVANT SCARFER< OUTSPEEDS CHOMP???
>LIKE WHAT GUYS I DON'T KNOW I JUST MENTIONED TAPU LELE

And not only Tapu Lele, any fucking decent scarfer outspeeds Jolly Garchomp. So in a nutshell:
You're trash.

>>32474971
You're retarded.

And both you (if not the same pleb) are embarassing yourself in a scale so big it's astounishing.

>>32474752
my adamant nature kommo-o (with salac berry) rapes most of my battle tree opponents. Though, I do hope kommo-o learn something like close combat or any moves to can advantage of.

>he's still here on damage control over his scarf sd garchomp posts

Jeez

>>32475889
>>LIKE WHAT GUYS I DON'T KNOW I JUST MENTIONED TAPU LELE

Because Tapu Lele is still a good sweeper and it has even less speed than Garchomp. That guy said nothing about it outspeed Garchomp with scarf. Again, learn how to read.

>>32475998

Lele is not a sweeper you low ladder retard and neither is Chomp. Get it now?

Kommo-o is fucking garbage. Maybe mine's IVs were shit but even in the story mode the thing was a pain in the ass to use. It died in damn near all my encounters. I pushed it up to level 75 post-game to use it to grind exp for my EXP Share mons and even now it struggles. I've even missed a few neutral OHKOs on level 50 wild Pokemon.

The story alone turned me off of it and unless it gets some noteworthy buffs, I'm not coming back.

>>32474287
It's more the embodiment of playing things too safe.

A Jack of All Trades user can only work so well competitively without recovery, let alone, reliable.

And then there's the ridiculously limited range of Fighting STAB.

>>32475998
I've lost track of how many mistakes you've made in this thread. Just pack it up and leave. We can all forget this ever happened.

>>32474569

And who in competitive runs their Pokemon without an item, retard?

>>32476005
>Lele is not a sweeper

Yes it is. So is Garchomp.

>>32476038
I haven't made any mistakes.

I think I can pinpoint where this thread went wrong. This thread was having a discussion about sweepers and someone comes along talking about Garchomp.

Someone says that Garchomp can't sweep with 102 speed and no way to boost it without scarf. Then the other person thinks people are saying 102 is bad speed (false) when really they mean it is bad for a sweeper with no other way to boost (true).

The chompposter has made a fool of themselves by not realising this mistake, but at the end of the day it is just a comprehension error, not /vp/ being bad at competitive.

>>32476073
KEK

How are Lele and Chomp sweeping while only being locked into one move or with unboosted speed?

Assuming you're claiming they will sweep with a scarf, how is this going to eventuate? Will your opponent just let all of their Psychic resists die? Will they just not have any ground immunities?

Think it through man.

You retards in this thread are all fucking aruging two separate things.

One retard is arguing that 102 Speed is "not fast enough to be a sweeper", using Choice Scarf Lele as an example of a common Scarfer that that will outspeed it if it tries to SD sweep. For some reason, this retard is arguing that 102 Speed is too low for Garchomp to sweep SPECIFICALLY when it runs its SD set, even though clearly it's Scarf set is just as capable of sweeping with Lele (minus the obvious downside of being unable to click Dragon moves if Fairies are still alive on the opponents team, but that's irrelevant to the point of having "enough" Speed for a Sweeper).

The other retards are all taking about setup Sweepers, not Scarfers (who can't Boost), and whether 102 Speed suffices for that.

You've both ended up talking across each other's points and both looking stupid in the process. Nobody suggested SD Scarfchomp in this thread, that was only retard one one side misunderstanding the post of a retard on the other.

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>>32474287
Kommo-o was the final nail in the coffin for pseudos. Unless it gets some good moves from tutors then we're never getting a good pseudo again.

>>32476127

Scarfers only sweep if your opponent is a retard. Therefore the only Chomp set that could sweep is a Swords Dance set, which is too slow.

>>32474287
>Clanging Scales now uses the physical attack stat but deals special damage, like an inverse Psyshock
>Now learns Drain Punch at level one
>Natural abilities are now Bulletproof and Overcoat
>Gets Multiscale ans its HA instead of fucking Soundproof
>Attack and Defense are swapped
>Now learns Iron Head as an Egg Move from Gible's line
>Now has egg moves in general. What the fuck GF? You can't just give up on this shit after Gen 6.

fixed

no one is going to bother using Special moves on it with these changes but moveset changes are more likely than stat changes anyway. The Attack/Def swap is a pipe dream

>>32476127
Everything you say here is right but the Garchomp discussion was originally and exclusively about SDChomp and then some guy that everyone made fun of said it could sweep with 102. Everyone tells him no and then he adds a scarf. It obviously can't sweep with either so I think people mocked him further under the assumption he didn't know how Choice Scarf worked.

>>32476127
Kek lad

Theres a lot more than one retard on each side

>>32476131

We got the UBs which are on par or better then most pseudos so no real lose

Since we're talking about Psuedos.

>Dragon/Water - Filter - 130/86/112/121/112/40
>Based on a Kirin
>Learns Recover

How is this fucker?

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>>32476236
>Kirin
>Not Dragon/Electric or Dragon/Ice

>>32476236
Top tier OU, bulky offense and trick room staple

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>>32476236
>>32476272
>>32476273
Yes, Yes, YES!

>>32476115
>How are Lele and Chomp sweeping while only being locked into one move
Lele has a 90BP STAB backed by fucking 130 special attack boosted by terrain while Garchomp has 100BP and 120BP STABs backed by 130 attack. Are you retarded?

>or with unboosted speed?
102 speed outspeeds a fuck ton of Pokemon even without scarf.

>Will your opponent just let all of their Psychic resists die? Will they just not have any ground immunities?
You're terrible at Pokemon so you might not know this, but Lele and Garchomp are capable of using moves that aren't Psychic and Ground type. Crazy I know.

>>32476127
>You retards in this thread are all fucking aruging two separate things.
Yes because this thread is full of retards who can't read and can't use context. No one was talking about Garchomp outspeeding or not outspeeding Tapu Lele. All that was originally said is that Tapu Lele is a good sweeper DESPITE having even less base speed than Garchomp, yet people are talking about Garchomp as if it can't sweep.

>>32476309
>Lele has a 90BP STAB backed by fucking 130 special attack boosted by terrain while Garchomp has 100BP and 120BP STABs backed by 130 attack. Are you retarded?

You just don't get it. This isn't sweeping unless your opponent lets it happen. These aren't sets you can put in a team and expect it to reliably (if at all) sweep teams against competent opponents.

>>32476341
please post examples of sweepers that reliably sweep teams against competent opponents

>>32476341
>This isn't sweeping unless your opponent lets it happen.

Which is why you remove or weaken the counters first you moron.

This board is so unfathomably bad at Pokemon it fucking hurts.

>>32474428
marshadow is a mythical and banned from their competitive ladders and tournaments. they don't have to care if it's broken because it'll never be allowed.

>>32474420
So? Dragonite has the same problem with Flying STAB in both categories.

>>32476379
>Which is why you remove or weaken the counters first you moron.

Do you know how much that takes? Your average team doesn't just have one check to Lele/Chomp and 5 others that get OHKO'd.

And even if it did, your opponent is never going to let that happen, unless your playing at 1200 elo, and I hope you're not.

>>32474323
>When it has a 10/10 ebin sweper typing?
This isn't gen5 anymore. Fairies came along and fucked everything for both types

>>32476369

Of the OU tier, the best ones are Zard X, Mega Gyarados, Mega Pinsir, Salamence, Scolipede, Volcarona, and Zygarde.

Celesteela, Landorus, Magearna and Sand Rush Excadrill are also pretty good.

Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile and Mimikyu are not as reliable as those mentioned above, but are still much more capable than Lele and Chomp.

Good to see /vp/ has evolved from not knowing a counter from a check, and now can't tell the difference between revenge killers, cleaners and sweepers.

You'll get there some day sweeties :3

>>32476545
>muh fanfic jargon

>>32476422
>Do you know how much that takes?

Yes anon this may come as surprising to you but you do need to put in effort to win games. Crazy I know.

I find it odd that you keep using the low ELO insult when Garchomp and Lele are A rank tier sweepers that people use even high into the ladder.

>>32476510
>Tapu Lele
>A+ Rank
>Garchomp
>A Rank

>Zard-X
>B+ Rank
>M Gyara
>B- Rank
>M Pinsir
>A- Rank
>Salamence
>B Rank
>Scolipede
>Implying Scolipede is a sweeper
>Volcarona
>A Rank
>Zygarde
>A Rank

the best of these are only as good as Garchomp

what point are you attempting to make?
Do you seriously believe that Salamence is a better sweeper than Garchomp?

>>32476573
>>32476565

The key word here is sweeper, not just fast, strong Pokemon. Chomp and Lele can't win you a game as early in the battle as the sweepers I posted.

I like Kommo but would never use it on battle against another person, I use on the battle tree doubles with choice specs.

This thing needed to be more focus on either special or physical atttack, have more speed and a better movepool, but even so the typing is just really bad, it has ton of weakeness not just fairy.

>>32476545
>smogon defines these words to mean this so that's the only thing they can mean!
Some people use the dictionary for their definitions

DRAGON/STEEL DEFENSIVE PSEUDO WHEN
Give it 70 attacking stats, abysmal speed, and fuckhuge hp/defenses

Sick of all these lame ebin sweeper pseudos

>>32474431
Kommo-o is better to be run as an special attacker, it's special moves are in general better than it's physical ones, physical Kommo-o is just not worth it even for in game stuff.

>>32476643
>all these lame ebin sweeper pseudos

There are literally two of them

>>32476585
>The key word here is sweeper

Which they are. Remove or weaken their counters and they can sweep fine. "Sweeper" doesn't mean "can instantly delete every Pokemon the opponent sends out." No Pokemon in the game can just magically beat every possible Pokemon unless it's something that's broken and should be banned.

>Generally, Tapu Lele will be looking to sweep by using its Psychic-type STAB attack, so removing Dark- and Steel-types is essential. Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Heatran are very good at this, as they are able to switch into and beat common checks. Magnezone is a huge help at removing Steel-types, as it is able to trap and remove annoyances such as Skarmory, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn.

If you look in the Smogon Forums role compendium thread, they list Garchomp as a Swords Dance sweeper. They do not list Tapu Lele as a sweeper.

I can only conclude that you are BOTH retarded. End the thread now please.

>>32474287
>worser
You're the embodiment of /vp/'s underage ESL userbase.

>>32476666
dragonite, tyranitar, metagross, garchomp, hydreigon, and kommo'o are all sweepers you dunce

>>32476236
Completely obscene.

>>32476716

I've been baited by you enough in this thread. I'm not falling for any more. Next you'll be telling me Floatzel is a sweeper.

>>32476733
>hurr durr sweeper = boost once and kill 6 pokemon

You're a goddamn retard.

just use white herb shell smash

oh wait

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>>32476700
Anon...

>>32476746

Who are you quoting? If you need to make things up to win the argument then you're better off surrendering.

>>32476760
>Bulu
>Gliscor
>Necrozma
>Lele
>Fucking Koko
>Fucking Sableye

HAHAHAHAHA what? When have these Pokemon ever swept another team?

>>32476797
I remember CM Sableye was used a lot when it first came out. It can be an easy win condition if you remove your opponent's fairy types first and defensive teams can't do shit against it while it's setting up.

>>32476797
Bulu can pull off a successful sweep on Web teams. It's bellow average prevents it from steamrolling the meta.

>>32474287
Game Freak doenst really care about the competitive

>>32477966
The Tapus disagree