>"I have no children." Jesus Christ that was a

>>31509191
But all Lillie did in return was call her a poopoo head so no, it was shit.

>>31509191
Needs more neck.

>muh kids game!!!!!! Wtf?????

>>31509191
Dark? Because a stupid bitch was having a "im tired of you" moment?

People often say she was just manipulated or whatever the fuck, but I can't really say I can excuse such a lousy attitude.

Such a shitty character personality wise, because most of the time, they're forcing me to hate it to its very core. Then they expect me to slightly care about her because "s-she didn't meant any of that" even though Nihilego only causes loss of inhibition and is now a fucking vegetable Lillie has to take care of. Eugh.

>t. muh evil mom trope

I already went through this with Kill La Kill, it already got kinda old.

>>31509661
>they expect me to slightly care about her
No, they don't. That's like saying you're meant to care for Cyrus. You aren't.

>>31509668
Not him but
They expect you to care for Lillie
Lillie cares about her mother enough to go to Kanto
You should probably care about the things Lillie does
Therefore you should care about curing Lusamine because she considers it very important (as does every other character in the story that we hear from)

>>31509191
>I stole your Pokemon and now I'm offended for being called ugly
Game Freak teaching kids to be sensitive criminals.

>>31509661
>is now a fucking vegetable Lillie has to take care of

Are you stupid?

>>31509708
That's really shit logic. She has forgiven Lusamine, doesn't mean you have to. You're supposed to like Lillie, not become Lillie.

>>31509755
If you like a person it's usually courteous to support their decisions/ideas

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>>31509191
>"I have no dog."

>>31509191
I see you have had a sheltered upbringing, Anon.

>>31509798
You can support a decision even without agreeing with it.
In this situation, Lillie cares about Lusamine because she's her family. To you, Lusamine means nothing. Your only connection with her is through Lillie. You aren't supposed to care in the least. If Lillie wants to give Lusamine a second chance, let her. You can do that without falling in love with Lusamine yourself.

If I was in that situation, I wouldn't exactly let Lusamine die either. If she wants to save her mother, I wouldn't be telling her to stop.

>>31509810
wh-what happened to you anon

>>31509739

Was it not implied Lusamine got into a deep slumber (comatose) at least? Or was it temporary?

>>31509916
No, she jus cant recover fully/remains weak

>>31509916
>She has hardly roused since.
That is what Wicke says. She isn't in complete coma, though she isn't exactly much different from a vegetable.

>>31509946
Lillie says she wanted to come to the the championship party so she's not any fucking vegetable, she's just weak

>>31509191
From Cheren in BW after the Cold Storage plot:

"Those Team Plasma Grunts are a waste of oxygen."

>>31510086
I miss BW

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>Lilliefags

>>31510086
OXYGEN CONFIRMED REAL IN POKEMON UNIVERSE
CONFIRMED REAL CHEMISTRY AND BIOLOGY IN POKEMON WORLD

>>31509191
Could've been worse, she could have went full Ragyo in this story

>>31510160
No, you fucking retard. Just because Cheren believes it exists doesn't mean it really does. There no proof. Stop being so gullible.

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>>31509209

>>31509191
>>31510086
Post more "dark" pokemon quotes

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>>31509191
>the average /vp/ user thinks this is scary and 'dark'

>>31510484
More.

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Was she evil enough, or should she have done more?

>>31511063
we are talking about a game for childrens anon

>>31511063
What IS dark? Please do enlighten us.

>>31511063
Not scary, but an abusive mother disowning her children is dark. A lot of that darkness comes from the fact that that shit really happens.
Plus, it's a game for kids.

>>31510086
And Ghetsis shitting all over N. As well as implying he'd kill you, as well as attempting to murder you with kyurem

>>31511255
To this point, Ghetsis is a wrote parent than Lusamine

>>31511276
>>31511255
>>31510558
"After all of that, do you think you're still worthy of sharing the name Harmonia with me? You good-for-nothing boy!"

"There is such a thing as being too stupid! Add it up, and you are nothing more than a warped, defective boy who knows nothing but Pokémon..."

"He's nothing more than a freak without a human heart. Do you think you're going to get through to a warped person like that?!"

He mad

>>31511294
I mean, he's not wrong. Dark, but it's all true. I'm surprised only Ghetsis said those things.

>>31511276
Im still convinced that shortly after Gladion was born (before Lillie), Lusamine found a book "How to be a GREAT Parent!!" Co-authored by Ghetsis Harmonia and Gendo Ikari.

>>31511389
>>31511294
"But I still haven't forgotten that even though I was kind enough to find you when you were living in the forest with Pokémon, and take you in, and care for you, in the end you were selfish and disrupted my plans."

*in bold* "Shut your mouth! Shut up! Shut up! Shut UP! Don't talk like a person, you freak! No real person could talk to Pokémon!"

Ghetsis savergry >>> Lusamine savergry

N Suffering >>>> Lillie suffering

>>31511427
Literally the only time I felt bad for N. He tried too hard to repair that relationship

>>31511438
Tbqh I can't understand how people can say Lillie has a better story than N

>>31511468
more dark=/=more mature=/= better
also, let people be happy

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>>31510484
NEEDS MORE NECK

>>31509191
>Picking that line when there's one even darker in the same game
>Not picking that time when Lillie told Lusamine to stop or Nebby might die, and Lusamine said that she didn't care if Cosmog died as long as she gets her beasts.
>Not picking the line where Guzma's dad say that he tried to give a lesson to his son but he ended up being the one getting beaten, and then you can inspect a bag of golf clubs and most of them are broken

>>31511475
No but BW had a much better narrative overall

>>31509668
I care about manga Cyrus. Based boss man

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>>31511427
>Lillie suffering
>implying she was "suffering" in any way

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>>31509191
Mmh makes me think.

>>31509191
You haven't played gen 5,have you?

>>31511760
Tbf, gen 5 was a teenager's game where the entire motif is "you're getting too old for this game, it's time for the kiddies to play pokemon"

>>31511760
Well N was Ghetsis adoptive father tbqh.

>>31509191
I think her last line is a lot stronger than that one in terms of the actual narrative.

>When did you... start becoming beautiful?

>>31511294
>>31511427
I know you're supposed to feel bad at this, but I also felt kind of happy when e said those things. N was, in the end, a delusional faggot who tried to ruin the lives of literally everyone with his selfish reasoning, which even he knew was flawed. It's sad he had to get that, but seeing someone in the game not suck his dick made me like Ghetsis. When I saw how popular N was, I was surprised. I thought he was okay, but people really made him out to be some tragic hero, which he wasn't.

Call me edgy or contrarian, but I couldn't feel bad when all Ghetsis said was actually true and made sense. N had not just fucked with everyone during the game, but at the end, he fucked up Ghetsis.

>>31511802
her last words

>>31511803
> N was, in the end, a delusional faggot who tried to ruin the lives of literally everyone
You know all of that was Ghetsis' fault because he brainwashed N and constantly taught him to see only one side of things, right

>>31511815
Yes, that is correct

>>31511818
He brainwashed, but that doesn't mean N did nothing wrong. He still did all those things. He can talk to Pokemon, and they all told him they were happy with their trainers, yet he still ignored them. Brainwashed, but he still admitted he knew what he was doing was wrong.

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>>31511874
I agree completely. But he was just really resistant to change and close minded because of all the crap Ghetsis force fed him his entire life. But at least in BW2 he doesn't pretend that he didnt do anything wrong and realizes all the mistakes he made.

>>31511669
I thought she being emotionaly played with like some kind of doll by her crazy mother?

>>31511947
Don't get me wrong. I do think he works good as the rival-antagonist to the play, being almost the complete opposite. I'm just a bit mad at how special they made him out to be, giving him power to talk to Pokemon, made out to be the chosen hero, being the first evil team leader to be even stronger than the Champion, and despite all he does, he instantly forgiven by everyone and everyone treated him like the purest thing to exist and the best friend for protagonist.

I like it when antagonists have some connection to the protagonist. It gives the story more depth, and seeing the protagonist overcome them have more impact. In that sense, I liked N. But I prefer his personality and actual villain status he got in the manga over the center of the universe he was in the games.

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>>31512129
You definitely have a point, and I think executed in even a slightly different way N could have actually turned out as a trainwreck of a bad character. But imo i think they just managed to do him right.

His ability to talk to Pokemon does seem like a special snowflake power, but the game makes it believable enough by telling us he spent his entire childhood ONLY with Pokemon, and that its implied he's a descendant of an ancient Unovian king who also had that ability (mentioned a bit in the abyssal ruins) and even WITH the ability to hear Pokemon's voices it doesn't help him understand the truth.

And even though a few characters do say he's a chosen hero, I don't think he really was, and even N admits it later on. I think the only reason the legendary dragon chooses to fight beside a human has nothing to do with whether they're a hero or not, but more how strongly they want to follow their beliefs and their convictions. N believed wholeheartedly he was right and he couldn't be wrong (he was an arrogant fuck) but his heart was pure and I think the legendary dragon saw that and joined with him because it wanted to see where this all would lead.

I also think a lot of NPCs saw him as an unfortunate victim of circumstance, and some of his ideals weren't wrong (and they don't shit on him too much bc accepting other points of view was the 'message' of BW), but a few rightfully regard and treat him like the bad guy even in BW2.

All of it kind of ties in to the kind of story BW was trying to tell I think

>>31511669
She had to wear those awful clothes though anon

>>31512327
I would accept his ability to talk to Pokemon if it was necessary. But it wasn't. It played almost no part in the story, and he didn't listen to Pokemon either way, so it seemed like a completely unnecessary thing, just there to make him even more special. Everything would've worked even without that.

He was chosen by the Legendary, because he had strong belief, I can accept that, but it making sense doesn't make it any less of a special thing. Out of all the NPC before and after him, he was the only one accepted by a Legendary. Whatever the logic behind it was, it doesn't excuse it. That would be like saying Ash-Greninja is nothing special, because there was a reason only Ash's Greninja could transform into something unique.

However it is put, I think they tried too hard with N in particular. BW had some good characters, like the rivals and even Alder, but N was overdone. You said some people didn't like him in BW or BW2, but all I remember are Team Plasma members blaming him.

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>>31512450
You know I think the reason he did have that ability, admittedly along with being unique, is because if he DID fight for all the ideals he fought for in BW1, and COULDNT hear Pokemon's voices them he would come off as an even bigger douche than he already was. He also wouldnt be any different than the normal people who couldnt hear Pokemon's voices, yet just assumed Pokemon were okay with being confined in Pokeballs and made to fight for sport. And since N could hear them he could take the high ground and made him believe more arrogantly he was correct. I kinda like it because its also a shoutout to real life, with people who fight strongly for what might be good beliefs yet are blinded to all criticisms of it (like basically all activists)

as for the legendary dragons, I just think no one else had the idea to go fight with them before since no one knew where they were, and it was established before that fucking with the legendary dragons could rend Unova asunder like it had in the past. and no one else but N and you could use them at the time since Cheren and Bianca were still busy being in self doubt about what they wanted to do, Ghetsis' intents were sinister, and Alder is a broken old man. And no one aside from N and you were strong enough.

And I agree it is brief but I remember Rood or something in BW2 saying he wished N would come back one day to help make up for all the trouble he caused. N admits it a few times himself, which is why he comes back to try to stop Ghetsis (even if he accidentally made the situation worse because he didnt know about the DNA splicers)

>>31512617
at least he was executed a bit better than Lillie who forced you to take part in a story that had next to nothing to do with you, or Zinnia who was a huge bitch to everyone and never even apologized.

>>31512617
Not knowing how Pokemon feel, and thinking they are abused because that's the only sort of Pokemon he was shown still sounds better. It's believable and relateable. Hearing Pokemon, and acknowledging they are happy, yet still failing to understand is not, no matter how you put it. It doesn't help that during the course of both of the games he appeared in, he wasn't shown doing even ONE good thing for any Pokemon, and despite hating battles, he fights you more than any other trainer, barring rivals.

You can say that hearing Pokemon, claiming they always tell the truth, and acknowledging they were happy, yet still sticking to his beliefs is a good writing, it shows his conviction. But I would just say that's unrealistic and makes N out to be the opposite of what they treat him as. Every kid, even those that can't understand Pokemon, can see Pokemon be happy. Some Pokemon evolve by happiness, for fuck's sake. Failing to realize that even after talking to Pokemon just breaks narrative of the story.

As for the Dragons, I never thought about people not wanting to fuck with them. That makes sense. I was thinking from player's perspective, and hearing about a Legendary, as a Trainer, you fuck with them. Normal people probably wouldn't. This is the best explanation I've come across through all the times I've argued with people about N.

>>31513002
Actually one of the issues I have with BW1 is that literally every NPC in the game talks about how great Pokemon are and how much they love them. And the only people who abuse Pokemon in the game were actually only team plasma. They fixed this a bit in BW2 where there were a few NPCs who said they thought maybe team plasma had the right idea, but in bw1 it does kinda look one sided.
N was totally arrogant, sheltered and had a child like mentality, which is why even with hearing their voices he couldn't open his eyes to the truth. For one he was in denial, and even if he acknowledged some people or Pokemon were happy, there WERE also still people who abused Pokémon, and he wanted to split both sides apart so those bad relationships could never exist, even if it meant getting rid of the good ones.
But I think him having the ability is good for him especially in BW2 because it can help him connect the hearts of people and Pokémon together more easily. Which is what I think he was always meant to do.

His entire goal in bw1 was trying to do something good for all Pokémon but of course it was a misguided goal. In BW2 he does try to stop Ghetsis, and I think him giving you the legendary dragon in the post game is a great character moment for him which really shows his humility. This is why I want to see him cameo in another Pokémon game though so he can do something and not have it be tied to Ghetsis or the bw plot

>>31513357
Isn't that a thing in every Pokemon game? Every NPC, except the evil team, treats Pokemon nicely. That's why the evil teams are, well, evil. I don't remember anyone other than the evil teams mistreating Pokemon in any game. There are some who use Pokemon solely for battles, but they still don't mistreat them.
And if I recall correctly, there were NPC in BW who also thought Team Plasma was right. Which made even less sense. This is why I don't consider story to be BW's strong point, and that BW2 had a much better story. A lot of things just didn't make any sense.

>I think him giving you the legendary dragon in the post game is a great character moment for him which really shows his humility
I will agree with that being a big character moment. It was the scene where it felt like he finally got what he wanted, and even I, who was pretty tired of N at this point, thought it was a good moment. I don't know how it plays out in Black2, but in White2, him finally finding truth makes and Reshiram leaving N after that made perfect sense.

>>31513463
Well there was Silver. You could also maybe debate Gary treated his Pokémon strictly. I think Cheren should have treated his Pokémon with a kind of sterness as well which I think would have added a bit more moral grayness

In black2 N settles on that his ideal is to be the bridge between Pokémon and humans and helps the two sides strengthen their relationship, because that's the best thing he can do

>>31513547
I doubt any of them abused their Pokemon though. They were just more serious trainers who weren't as friendly. There's a huge difference in not just focusing on battles and not being friendly, and actually mistreating your Pokemon.

>>31512038
Being forced to wear a certain outfit isn't "suffering"

It's kinda cute too.

>>31511253
>>31511253
this

>>31513829
Having no freedom or control of you own life and being forced to watch Pokemon you like constantly be experimented on and abused at the age of less than11 is not cute, anon. "Suffering" doesn't only imply physical abuse. Though I don't expect /vp/ to understand.

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>>31513868
>Having no freedom or control of you own life
>at the age of less than11

>>31513879
I get your point, but Lusamine comes across less like
>Eat all your vegetables, then go to bed early. Because I said so, that's why
and more like
>Stand like this.
>Walk like this.
>Speak like this.
>Think like this.
>Do exactly as I say, when I say it, how I want it, because I know better than you, and always will.

Plus, you know. Freeze-drying the family pet. Repeatedly.

>>31511468
because waifufagotry is a common thing between the austist on /vp/

>>31513879
Lusamine was basically a tiger mom.

>>31512684
I know right ? Everytime Lillie appears it feels like im just a standby in her story , especially in that hapu battle where instead of congratulating you she just says :"Phew... Well, I must applaud you, Lillie. You sure found a prodigious Trainer to befriend."