>people are literally saying that HMs were good >people

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HMs were one of the worst parts of Pokemon. How anyone can defend them is beyond me.

>>31352233
I kinda wished they just had it so your own pokemon could act as HMs once you got the correct badge.

Ridealong pokemon are alright, not quite what I expected though.

>>31352233
HMs are shit but sun and moon didn't do it right either. There's ONE route in the entire main story that requires your water ride mon. On a game that takes places on tropical islands.

>>31352334
Blame the people who kept bitching about Hoenn's water. It's no coincidence that after Gen 3, newer regions very rarely have you visit story-required water routes

>>31352233
I'm glad they're gone. Just make sure Surf and Waterfall stay TMs and we're good.

>>31352233
>pokemon
>confusing caves

i'm sorry you seem to have an extra cromosome

>>31352356
>gen 3 had too much water
No more important water routes.
>gen 4 had ugly cross-gen evolutions
No more cross-gen evolutions unless it's Eevee.
>gen 5 had too much quantity>quality
No more new generations with 100+ new Pokémon.

I think that if you got the hm and could use it as long as you had an eligible Pokémon with you. That way you don't need to waste a team space on an hm slave or waste move slots. Either that or make the tms have a non-normal attack type.

>>31352437
And course they didn't do anything about the content complaints in Gen 6.

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>>31352233
Genwun fag. I'm glad the HMs are gone. I wish Mudsdale didn't exist as a rideable Pokemon and that Sharpedo's boost was incorporated with Lapras so there is another less rideable Pokemon.

>>31352451
I think that's a complaint that isn't really common with children. Most of them drop the game after beating the story anyway.

>>31352400
not op but when i first played pearl mt. Coronet took fucking forever because of that one pc length passthrough to get to the upper levels.

I did not see it

> cant use Dig, need to stock up on escape ropes
> cant use Sweet Scent, need to use honey

Too bad they removed the useful field moves

>>31352512
i bet you were 6 when you played pearl

Thank god , they were already phased out by gen 5

>>31352233
Because a handholding, babby island adventure where you're cradled with fun pads from point A to B is a lot better.

SuMo cut out all sense of adventure and accomplishment.

>>31352233
Wtf are you talking about? I'm a Sinnohfag and HMs are easily the best thing to come out of SM.

Watch HMs return in the speculative DP remakes 'because they were in the originals'. I can see GF do that.

>>31352356
Yeah and it fucking pisses me off. Water routes are great.

>>31352565
>>31352334

This has dick shit to do with HMs or Ride Pokemon, but is instead a critique of SuMo's world design. It's irrelevant.

>>31352577
Watch konto-only rideable pokemon return in the speculative DP remakes 'because they were in sm'. I can see GF do that.

>Gamefreak removes all field moves instead of just HMs
what did they mean by this

>>31352565
>sumo
Opinion discarded

Just inject lol__

>>31352565
>waste a moveslot teching a pokemon shitty move thats not waterfall/surf
>ACCOMPLISHMENT

>>31352636

Playing through X/Y, why not have HMs be like things like dig, teleport or rock break, where its a TM with a special ability and just have the badge be needed to use it outside of battle.

Otherwise you can use pokeride if you don't have a pokemon with the ability you need

>>31352233
>saying "literally" three times
how's high school?

>>31352233
I defend the games. Sinnoh is still the best region despite some contrary opinions, which, ironically, do not matter. But I do not defend the use of hm's.

>>31352805
They literally are

hopefully it'll never come back

fuck HMs and fuck the silly people who thought the status quo was ideal

>>31352591
Ride replaced a way to traverse the land, which was the main point of HMs. Now you no longer have to rely on your own Pokemon to do so. SuMo is literally my mom's Pokemon shofer simulator.

>>31352233
>literally prefers using rental pokemon to traverse the world rather than his own partners

jesus fucking christ

how low will alolautists go to defend their shitty game

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>>31352233
im a snnohfetus and i fucking dispise HMs, whoever is saying this BS and started playing pkmn since gen4 is a fucking fake and should use their HM04 to HM01 their skull with a bat tbqh.

I never minded HMs that much, desu. I totally get why people hate them, but I never really complained about them.

>>31353232
same boat as you friend
hm02 off a bridge

>>31352437
>gen 6 had no actual story
They try to make actual good stories

>>31353232
This post a hundred times. Stop thinking that we can't recognize the flaws in our favorite games when we can. Literally applies to everyone and their favorite games.

HMs being gone is literally the one good thing about these games.
Then i realized that they've killed all the other overworld utility moves like Teleport or Dig...

Idiots.

personally i like the strength puzzles and items stuck behind smashable rocks, but im glad shit like flash, defog, whirlpool, and cut are gone

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>>31353420
> like the strength puzzles and items stuck behind smashable rocks,

>>31352233
HM's were troublesome but added immersion. They could be made easier to handle while still allowing exploring the region with your own Pokémon.

Alola has no HM's and you never need ones in Unova or Kalos. I'm pretty sure it's related to how each of those regions are linear corridors with nowhere to explore.

>>31353440
seriously
some of them are moderately challenging, and i like puzzles
the bw2 regigigas puzzle was a lot of fun

>>31352233
Literally no Sinnohfetus defends HMs

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>>31353474
ikr. whoever defends HMs ever isn't a real pokemon fan, and their 1st game is pokemon GO, prove me wrong. you cant.

>>31352496
>Mudsdale
seriously, i don't understand why the damn thing even exists
the barrier prevents you from getting to route 12 before sophocles anyway, and as soon as you get access to route 12, they give you mudsdale so rocky terrain & mudsdale basically have no function at all as a barrier or anything else

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>>31352233
HM's were awful but served as road blocks to prevent you from sequence breaking. The ride pokemon are way better, but still halfassed since half the road blocks in this game are people riding dogs, and captain gates which makes me wonder whats the point? Isn't lapras the only mandatory ride mon, for that one tiny section all the way on island 3?

And it really fucking sucks that we can't optionally surf between islands in a region composed of 4 islands. If they actually made water routes pretty looking with reefs and corsola or something in the shallow areas, instead of the same boring sea graphics people wouldn't have complained about too much water.

>>31353533
this is why HMs were good
You actually needed to make a sacrifice to explore
Now it's just press a button and boom no real gameplay change, you might as well remove both Mudsdale and the obstacle

>>31352437
I hate the lack of cross gen evos so much, it used to make gens feel more connected to previous ones.

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>>31355011
>You actually needed to make a sacrifice to explore

A decent start, but the bait is too obvious. You'll get it one day.

>>31353519
is this a jojo reference?

I prefer HMs to ride Pokemon.
Neither are perfect though.
>>31352281
>>31352446
would be.

>>31352577
>I can see GF do that.

they already shown that they will remake a game with all its original flaws included than remake a game while fixing every problem.

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>>31353440
If this shit does not give you an erection, I pity you.

>>31355115
not bait, i'm being serious
Every game I planned out my team to have strength, surf, and fly
If I needed something like cut or rock smash, I had to leave a party member behind, limiting my options for battling in that area
Sure it wasn't great, but having all these abilities at the touch of a button doesn't really add anything to the gameplay over just walking normally except for the visuals

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>DP remakes come out
>HMs are brought back for "nostalgia"

>31355115
Stupid sableyeposters. No dots for (You)

>>31355254
>doesn't really add anything to the gameplay
Nor does it take away from the gameplay. Unlike HMs, which do.

>>31355270
>Dots
(You)s have been back for a while

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>>31352233
>alolasomes mad that people prefer games to interactive movies

>>31355276
HMs required you to actively make a choice in order to access extra content. Making them mandatory to get through dungeons is arguably detracting, but I'm referring more to stuff like the strength puzzle on route 21/22 in kalos.

>>31355232
Actually the thumbnail looks like a erect penis cutted in half.

>>31352233
>>31352261
Because you're oversimplifying you stupid faggots. You can't just say
>DURR HMs ARE BAD

WHAT PART of HMs is bad?
The fact that they take up a team slot and force you to use certain mons.
However there is the good part of making the overworld more interesting and giving your Pokemon a sense of purpose outside of battles.

Ride Pokemon take away the immersion aspect of using your own mons to traverse the world. There are other solutions like making HMs passive, or making Ride pokemon an ALTERNATIVE rather than a REPLACEMENT.

Use your fucking heads.

>>31355399
meant take up a move slot*

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So you didn't build a team in which one of each of your Pokémon had a different HM move? Negotiating power with utility made sense for a game with exploration. When I play a wizard in D&D, I don't pick just spells with combat benefits. I pack some for survival or movement as well. All of my Pokémon had 3 battle oriented moves and one HM. This forced me to negotiate my team based not just on power/typing but utility as well.

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>>31355270
>sableyeposters

If I switch to Gardevoir reaction images would you be more or less triggered?

>>31353519
My first game was Red and I didn't mind HM's. HM's weren't that much of a sacrifice Gen 1 because there weren't even that many moves for an in game team.

>>31355399
(Tú)

>building a team around HMs is too hard
Why to people want Pokemon to be more and more easy and streamlined?

>>31355218
this. even what many people consider the best pokemon remake kept the flaws of the original.

>>31355581
I kinda just want my pokemon to have moves I like. I don't understand why they couldn't just implement HMs as something you unlock and are able to use in the world without having to take up a move slot.

>>31355649
That still requires you to build a team around them so it doesn't defeat my point.

>>31352233
I hate HMs, love the ride feature, but also love Mount Coronet.

I for one am glad of not having to have a fucking bird, fish and potential small mammal to play my fucking game and for once play with a 100% mine team.

tho i still caught a Wishiwashi bc is the first fish i really really like, and also not a single of my ingame team can learn fly

>>31355688
But it doesn't gimp an otherwise good Pokemon's moveset.

>>31352577
Watch people getting angry over removed HMs because muh entry hazard defog

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>>31355232
Don't worry, I got this.

>>31355742
This. Felt really good to not have to worry about that stuff and just put whatever I want on my team and their movesets.

>>31356046
They should just make all the enemies you fight normal type and make ghost effective against it so you can use whichever Pokemon you like.

if they just made HMs forgettable I'd have literally no problem with them

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>>31356107

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>>31354966

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>>31356164
It's just too hard building a team around this convoluted battle system jsut like it's too hard to build one around the literal hundreds of HMs.
Plus I can't use all my favorites.

I hate HMs but I miss caves being cool. They were lame as shit in B/W1, pretty fine in B/W2, then kept dropping down.

>>31352526
tfw you cant cut grass anymore

>>31353344
> gen 6 had no actual story
But it did. Not well executed, but it did.

>>31355649
> have a water-type mon on your team, slap it Surf which is also a good water-type move
> have a flying-type mon on your team, slap it Fly which is also a decent flying-type move
See, easy?

>>31352233
>people are literally defending clusterfuck confusing caves that need 8 fucking HMs to pass through

Better than a "cave" where you push one rock, move a screen and fight the legendary.

>>31355399
no, fuck you. i just want the game to be an option menu for my pokemon battles

What's the point of the giant rocks in SM? They barely feel like an obstacle now that HMs are gone.

>>31356391
No, because now I am wasting a move on a garbage move. I could be taking advantage of type coverage and shit but now I am shackled to two moves of the same type of living with a shitty stab move in the form of the HM.

>>31356492
Do you really need the absolute best moves to get through a game made for five year olds that can't even read to beat?

>>31356514
When I intentionally under level, do not use potions in battle, and set battle style to set, yes I fucking do. I recently replayed Platinum and the elite four was a shit show until I deleted all my HMs and installed better moves.

>>31356534
>the game needs to be made easier so I can artificially make it harder again
You make no sense.

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>>31356534
>leaving HM moves on for the E4, at which point you won't need them again until postgame
That's your own damn fault.

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>>31352565
>>31352591
>>31353030
>>31353074
>>31353470
>>31355011
>>31355399
>>31355459
>>31355581
>>31356107
>>31356230
>>31356514
>y-you just suck at the game! why WOULDN'T you want to have to have a flying type, a water type, and a route 1 shitmons on all your teams?

I legitimately am at a loss for words

HMs were good thematically, your own Pokemon helping you outside of battle as well. As a gameplay feature, it should've been like in Rescue Team, where you just need the HM and a Pokemon that can learn it to make use of it, rather than requiring a move slot used, or the connectionless rentals in SM.

>>31355399
They should have given you the option to replace the Pokémon in the ride function with one of your own, if you had a qualifying one, after you got that ride function. So, after getting Tauros, if you had Arcanine, you could go into the menu, hit a button next to Tauros Dash, and pop in your Arcanine instead.

Then combine Fly with Teleport so you can plug in some Psychic-types there, just with a different animation.

>>31356544
Really my main point is I don't like it when a game that makes the personality and individuality of pokemon important, and in a game that allows for such customization of a team in how you chose pokemon and moves. I'd rather not have to waste up to 8 moves on stuff that I am forced to have at certain points in the game, and have to go delete before I take on a tough battle.

>>31355459
>Monotype runs impossible for anything except for Water
fuck you no

>>31356760
You could just train more than six pokemon.
I know it's a pretty hard concept in games with literal hundreds of them.

>>31356707
Don't ever fucking reply to me again unless you're contributing to this thread.

>>31352233
I dunno, I hope I can go through this gen's Diamond and Pearl without going for my usual Fire/Water/Grass Flying I do. There were so many good ghost pokemon this gen and I choose a god damn Drifblim from gen 4 cause I wanted a flying type that wasn't the generation's pidgey.

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>>31356798
oh shit Im so scared that this random anon on a taiwanese chess forum is threatening me

I also created the thread, faggot

>>31356707
>I don't like catching a variety of pokemon

Okay, let me give you my two cents on this.

As several people have pointed out in this thread, the point of hidden moves is to give an obstacle for the player in a game about adventure. It gives pokemon a different value other than battlers, and an endearing bond with the player, this pokemon gives me a ride, this one lets me see in this cave. Yes, it was awful that hidden moves couldn't be removed, it takes up a slot, it limits your options for your team. But first of all, you've always had the option to have a single HM slave for a route and switch it. It's tedious, alirght, but it's a solution. The real question is: why do people find this annoying?

And the answer is because the games have shifted a lot through the course of its generations. From what I can tell, it has been centered much more around battles, story and cosmetic aspects so the player can feel more integrated and express themselves. Which is something that I don't like, but I understand people who would.

I recently played a game called Pokemon Blue Kaizo. It's super-hard and amazing. Gym leaders are built to fight their weakness, wild pokemon have strong moves, are sometimes evolved and are a real obstacle. And what's really interesting: some gyms, besides LT Surge, have either bushes or water tyles or whatever that block them, forcing you to use HMs. It's infuriating and I love it. Because it forces you to strategize. You NEED a pokemon with cut that doesn't suck enough for gyms, but you know you're not gonna bring to the elite 4. It's an interesting challenge. And I accepted it because the rest of the game is hard and unfair. But the thing is, canon pokemon games wouldn't be like that.

Pokemon games are marketed towards children. We found those games hard as kids because we were kids. And some us accepted the hidden moves as a tedious thing without understanding why. Now that new pokemon games are technically made for the skill of children but at the same time marketed towards the old fandom, we find problems like this.

>>31356795
Again the game is very much designed to be very free with how it lets you play it in terms of team composition. With this in mind it does not make sense to me why I should be confined to play like this, or with an HM slave, or have to just bear having shitty moves all the way up until the elite for where I can delete them all and replace them with TMs.

I like what HMs do in terms of world design, I like doing stupid little strength puzzles, and I like new areas becoming available in previously explored places after acquiring HMs. I just don't want to be forced to play a certain way that contradicts the games very open design.

Yes I have literally hundreds of pokemon, I have hundreds of moves too, why should I be required to learn the same moves every game?

>>31356969
>Again the game is very much designed to be very free with how it lets you play it in terms of team composition
You also need a team that covers the majority of type matchups. I don't see how this is any different from needing to have a team that can use HMs. Both restrict your choices in team composition.

>I have hundreds of moves too, why should I be required to learn the same moves every game?
As others have said in this thread removing the requirement to actually learn the moves and just have an eligible Pokemon in the team would remove this problem.
Even with this HMs are a lot better than what we got with gen 7 though.

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>>31356896
>route 1 shitmon
>water type
>flying type
>on every team

>variety of pokemon

>>31357064
>removing the requirement to actually learn the moves and just have an eligible Pokemon in the team would remove this problem.
I literally suggested that, this basically solves all my issues with HMs.

>>31357064
no, you don't need a team that covers type matchups. the game is just slightly harder if you don't.

you need to have HMs to play through the game. you need to have Pokemon you don't like on your team. you need to have a permanent move on your favorite Pokemon that prevents you from giving it moves that you think work good for it.

>>31352233
HMs aren't good, but they're certainly not the huge issue people make them out to be.

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>Too Much Water!
>there are now very few, if any at all mandatory Water Routes in all future non-remake games

>Too many HMs, why do I have to lug around HM Slaves all the time?!
>up until Gen 7, HMs saw less and less mandatory long-term uses, with Strength, Rock Smash, Surf and Waterfall being the consistent endgame HMs

>Crossgen Evolutions suck, they ruined the originals!
>no more Crossgen Evolutions aside from Eevee

>Too many new Pokemon, where are the old ones?!
>there has been less than 100 Pokemon (not including variations and form(e)s) each gen after 5 and every region now has the same shit as last game plus the new Pokemon who are overshadowed due to the overwhelming amount of other Pokemon, think Johto except it has to share its turf with 5 more regions worth of Pokemon instead of just Kanto

>Kalos' Characters suck and I stop getting doses of dopamine after the billionth time I'm praised for being such an AMAZING trainer.
>SM promptly makes you a side-character to an NPC's story where you literally do not matter unless you're battling for someone, even your moment of glory in becoming Champion of Alola is quickly overshadowed

And then, watch as this happens for Gen 8.

>Too many cutscenes! I don't like Lillie, this was supposed to be MY adventure in Alola, not her's!
>character depth is even thinner than gen 1, no cutscenes whatsoever aside from tutorial, you're officially crowned God Emperor of the Universe the moment you step outside of your house

>>31357064
>You also need a team that covers the majority of type matchups.
Bullshit, you can get through the entire game with a single Charizard, no problem.

>>31357112
Neither's Ride.

>>31357130
>character depth is even thinner than gen 1, no cutscenes whatsoever aside from tutorial, you're officially crowned God Emperor of the Universe the moment you step outside of your house

this is unironically what sinnohfetuses want though

they want to have zero memorable characters that have development, and they want the main character to be the absolute ONLY focus of the game. and no cutscenes or story whatsoever, it's just you walking through a straight line of trainers.

>>31357180
>>31357110
Thinking about it you're right.
It should be neccessary though.
I just think that any mechanic forcing you to use a variety of pokemon instead of blazing through with your favorite(s) is a welcome one.

>>31352334
Well at least you can still see wild Pelipers all over the land now

>>31352437
Fuck you faggots. Most the cross gen evos were great and the ones that weren't were still fine. Whiny shits have ruined any chance of older mons getting new evos.

>>31357130
This
No matter what GF does, this place will never be pleased with the ganes.

>>31357223
Now that's another story.

I get confused by pokemon caves hurr

remove them! give me easy straight lines! don't even put grass in the way just put the grass on the side so I can skip all the pokemon battling!

>>31357456
>don't even put grass in the way just put the grass on the side
That's what they did with Unova and beyond.

>>31355581
But HMs don't add any difficulty to the game, only inconvenience.

>>31353420
>tfw Defog became a good move after 2 gens of uselessness
When will they buff Rock Smash?

>>31357130
I don't understand your point at all. I haven't played sun and moon, but honestly, I think it's fair for people to dislike a character in a game that is centered around them, if they can't avoid it and they don't like the character. It's not bad to have characters that matter other than yourself in a game. People have loved so far the last guardian even if it's not technically perfect.

Other than that, I'm concered about you. What is it that you want from a pokemon game?

>>31357080
>only water types learns surf
>only flying types learns fly
>only route 1 shitmons learns cut

>>31357497
It's a JRPG. Making the game harder means making it more inconvenient.

>>31357532
I didn't give a shit about anything SM did aside from how lengthy and numerous the cutscenes were. Lillie's fine, I was just stating the general opinions regarding the things listed and what happened when GameFreak saw those opinions and how the next games turned out as a result.

>>31357456
you're right. these people obviously are just bad at the game, that's why they don't want arbitrary limitations on their teams!

speaking of which, I thought of a great new feature for gen 8! instead of having 6 mons on your party, you can only have 2! sounds great, right?

and oh, you think that's stupid? you think it's dumb to put arbitrary limitations on people's teams just for the sake of "it's harder lol"? well, then you just suck! you want the games too easy!

tldr; limiting your team and forcing you to use mons and moves that you don't like is not fucking difficulty, retard. it's just cumbersome. I am astounded that I have to explain this to you.

>GF brings back HMs for DPPt remakes
>combines it with the Ride Pager
>teach move to pokemon
>if pokemon is in your party, it works the same
>if you don't want it in your party, put it in the Pager box, like the Battle Box in ORAS
>D-pad shortcuts to Fly, Surf, Smash, Climb, whatever
>if multiple mons know the same move, the pager will ask which one you want

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>>31357537
yeah. you're write.

good thing that there weren't only 3 HMs in the game though, huh?

>>31357603
how would this improve on the old system, though?

other than not forcing you to use Bibarel and Staravia on your party.

>>31357537
Fly and Cut are shit moves.

The biggest problem with HMs is that they mostly suck and once you teach them to one of your mons you're stuck with it until late-ish game.

Cut is a low BP trashmove that gets overshadowed by any base 40 STAB move, which your mon most likely has.

Fly is an annoying 2-turn move. It gets an ok for having decent base power at least.

Strength and Rock Climb are similar to Cut. They easily get overshadowed by Return though. A TM that effectively has 102 base power instead of 80~. Rock Climb only has a niche for Sheer Force users, but there are barely any that can make use of it.

Flash is trash for ingame.

Surf and Waterfall are actual decent moves. Waterfall mainly because there's a huge lack of high BP physical water moves.

Whirlpool can have its uses, but in the gens where it's an HM it's useless.

>>31357564
I see. I had no idea there were no cross-gen evolutions after generation 4. Well, I think game freak just wants to listen to whomever they feel at the moment. I don't think it's a problem that fans hate or love whatever mechanics. What's really troublesome is just that game freak doesn't choose an audience and makes a confusing mess out of it. So, yeah. I think I see your point and I pretty much agree with you.

>>31357640

It adds a personal touch, since it's calling up your pokemon that you taught the move to.

if you have something in your party that knows fly or surf or whatever you can still use them, but if they're not in your party it allows you to use your own pokemon without having to trudge back to a box to get it.

it would require tweaking the pager so that it'll call up who you want and stuff.

>>31357690
Cut is definitely the worst if you ask me. I know it's always an early move so they can't make it too strong, but they give it 50 BP and can't even make it 100% accurate? I'd rather keep using Scratch or Tackle.

>>31357622
8 moveslots out of 24 isn't even bad, considering half of those moves are good.

>>31357767
surf and maybe waterfall are the only good ones.

the other 6 still exist.

>>31357586
Limiting the team sounds great actually, I only use three pokemon at a time in my runs.

What I'm worried about for Pokemon is for it to befall the same fate as World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft took out "inconvenient shit" like hunter ammo, pet happiness/training, class quests, challenging questing, level 40 mounts, soul shards, warrior stances, death knight auras, needing gear at low levels, having to make groups for instances, having to make groups for questing, talent trees and truly massive raids. This left it with an empty game, an RPG with nothing but the core mechanics, except the core mechanics are shit because it's a role playing game.

It's hard to describe it specifically, but this clunky shit is important in games. It's what makes you feel like a pokemon trainer instead of an adult playing a kid's game. When you remove all the obstacles in the way and make a quick and easy path to the finish line, it starts to dawn that the journey is always more important than the destination.

>>31357845
I agree with this guy.

>>31357845
huh? you're saying that the main obstacle in Pokemon is the tedious shit? not the battling?

I dont know about WoW, but Im sure the game wasn't ruined because they took out arbitrary limitations on the player that really only served the purpose of making the game slower.

>>31358078
>but Im sure the game wasn't ruined because they took out arbitrary limitations on the player that really only served the purpose of making the game slower.

Why you want to reach the finish line so quickly?

>>31358321
here's what I don't understand.

the main part of Pokemon is battling. that's where the gameplay design budget goes.

so when I say "hey, GF should remove these features that really serve no purpose other than making the game slower and tedious", why do people respond with "Why you want to reach the finish line so quickly?"

it truly baffles me.

>>31358321
should there be a 5 minute wait period after every Pokemon battle?

if not, why do you want to reach the finish line so quickly?

>>31353030
>shofer
Are you fucking kidding me? Do you think anyone will take you seriously?

>I want HMs so i can "~feel~" my bros being useful.

Yeah them looking like generic black birds/blobs really helps with the ~immersion~

>>31358360
Because battling isn't everything. What about catching, exploring, earning items, etc?

I don't think there's a problem in needing to obtain certain moves to proceed further. RPGs worked on that since the NES (remember needing Float to cross lava without taking a huge amount of damage?), Pokemon was one of the last games that still felt like that.

It's bad to reach a point of the game and a NPC being like "use this to cross those little rocks", instead of you looking for a pokemon and a move that lets you cross.

>>31358905
I don't understand how anybody in this meme thread could possibly wanT HMs. You can't all be this fucking retarded. Or is it JUST the typical internet contrarians?

>>31352591
>The new mechanic that replaced HMs is just as shitty as HMs themselves and underutilized

>LOL BRO THIS HAS DICK SHIT TO DO WITH HMS WHAT ARE YOU EVEN SAYING

>>31357130
>even your moment of glory in becoming Champion of Alola is quickly overshadowed
What are you talking about? The moment you became champion is the moment all eyes were on you. Every character you met, barring team skull, showed up to the big ass celebration of you being Alola's first ever champion.you were so important that even Nanu of all people showed up. Quickly after the second longest cutscene, you fight Tapu Koko, and Koko never shows up to fight just anyone. After you defeat/catch Koko, the rest of the biggest cutscene of the game plays out, still celebrating your victory.

>>31352233
I like HMs.
I like SM.
I like Poke Rides.
I think they can coexist and I think they can both be improved.

>>31360116
You're the retarded one here if you can't deal with people having a different opinions.

>typical internet contrarians
Excuse me for liking something that you don't.

>>31357130
>SM promptly makes you a side-character to an NPC's story where you literally do not matter unless you're battling for someone, even your moment of glory in becoming Champion of Alola is quickly overshadowed

The game completely ignores your existence after a certain point. When the box legendary reveals itself and you go to the ultra space is eye-opening. I suggest people re-watch that cutscene and count the times where you appear on the background doing nothing.

Which is why...

>character depth is even thinner than gen 1, no cutscenes whatsoever aside from tutorial

I wouldn't mind this at all. Sorry, but the way that SM handled the story is unbearable.

So what will the Ride Pokemon be for the Sinnoh remakes?

I'm guessing:
Surf + Whirlpool = Floatzel Jet
Surf + Waterfall = Bibarel Paddle
Fly = Staraptor Soar
Cut = Kricketune Slash
Strength = Machamp Shove
Rock Smash = ???
Rock Climb = ???
Defog = ???

>>31352261
Will sinnoh remake keep them? I really fucking hope not.

>>31361160
Your Pokemon. You have to train them to be ride Pokemon by battling them and then they get an honorary fly badge or something.

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Alright

One side says that HM's were...
>unneeded and annoying
>makes the game slower
>why waste a moveslot on a shitty move?
>why catch an unneeded pokemon?
Mainly battling purposes, which is what the game is mostly about, which its a move you NEED to get through the overworld. A move like cut in battle helps nobody, and is a weak move. Also the reason why they like Ride Pokemon because then you can build your team how you want

Other side says that HM's were...
>useful, closer bonds with the pokemon
>increased the difficulty level, made you strategize around a certain demographic of pokemon
>let you explore with difficulty and added fun to the game
Mainly exploration purposes, which is another major component of the game. Also builds a relationship with your team and adds some thinking to the game. Having to catch a pokemon just to use cut, and then fighting with that pokemon because it is needed, brings about some critical thinking and difficulty.

Then can it be agreed to make HM's optional on a pokemon, but needed in the overworld?
For example, having a pokemon learn cut, but still be able to have four moves for battling separately, like having a separate slide for HM's. Plus, its optional to put HM's into the battling slide (still only up to four moves), but in this your ot restricted to forcing your pokemon learn HM's and can still use them in the overworld.

OR

Catch your own "Ride Pokemon" and assign it HM's, keeping it in the PC but being able to call upon it for HM purposes. HM slave 2.0 basically and you still keep the option of having them in your party if your wanna roll that way.

What people really want is something that doesnt restrict battling, but also keeps the exploration part fun and a bit challenging

>>31361160
Watch them be the same as SM.

You can just catch a pokemon that you need to use an HM on then ditch it later, you have 6 slots and they don't make the games hard enough pre-E4 to need a full party. This means you can just grind for a bit (like any other RPG) with 3-4 members of your party then use the last slots for HM slaves.

Really the best thing to do would be letting you set a pokemon to be a ride pokemon, because it's not hard or challenging to roll with 4 OP pokemon then 2 slaves that cover all the HMs, it's just annoying to deal with. If you had issues exploring back in the HM days, it's because you were bad at planing ahead when the game makes it well known that HMs are needed to get around areas. It's not hard to catch what you need for the HM you have to use, it's not hard to just go back to the PC and whip out the pokemon that had the HM you needed if you were ill prepared, it is time consuming though.

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>>31361616

>>31361395
Your point 1 for pro-HM doesn't actually exist because nobody trains the HM slave, they just use it and toss it in the PC when done

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>>31352233
>sinnohfetuses defending HMs
Where?

As a wise anon put it:
Riding my own Pokemon > Random Rideable Pokemon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My fucking shit >>>>>>>>>>>> More shit >>>>>>>>>>>> HMs

>>31355399
Even if the HM's were learned and didn't take up a moveslot, there'd still be problems, like needing a Flying type for Fly, or a specific pokemon for Cut. It just decreases variety in teams.

Rental pokemon just feels like you're a tourist. I'd like to just see it done with items instead, or just build a region in a way where this shit's not needed

>>31355254
>get through cave
>realize the path forward is blocked by a Cut bush
>have to go back through the cave, go to the pc, get a mon with Cut out, go through the cave a fourth time, and then cut it down

>>31352233
>how low will sinnohfetuses go to defend their shitty game
Low. I mean, they have to, their nostalgia is for the objectively worst generation in the franchise.

>>31363153
When has this ever happened in all of the history of Pokemon outside of Diglett Tunnel? (which is very short and directly next to where you get the cut HM in the first place?)

I feel like everyone's ignoring the most obvious reason for removing HMs. With the increased fidelity of the game world, the vague presentation of HMs in field doesn't really fit anymore. I don't think anybody really wants to be riding around on shadowy blobs again and GameFreak's been moving away from that with XY and ORAS. Ideally, you'd be able to apply HMs and then ride your own Pokemon, but that's not particularly realistic or feasible. There's hundreds of Pokemon that can use HMs, even if you limit it to the most ubiquitous of the HMs, and there's no way GameFreak would go through with that much work. Using other people's Pokemon is a reasonable compromise.

If there's a problem I have with Ride Pokemon, it's the selection and the lack of utility. It's mostly Kanto Pokemon and you usually only get one section where you have to use them right after you get them and then barely a thing after that. It's boring and lame.

>>31363214
No one is ignoring that. The retards actually want the shadow blob instead of actually rideable Pokemon.

>>31357586
>cumbersome
Like managing 6 pokemon and keeping them balanced for levels in a series where just 3 pokemon with the right types can manage 90% of your needs and distributing experience too thinly leaves you underleveled and arbitrarily throwing out inferior mons JUST FOR FUN LOL when one good mon will do everything those underleveled shit mons will do but much faster?

>>31356707
>our year of the lord 2000+17
>not surfing on the GOAT Rhydon
I shiggy diggy

>>313543210
Just inject a mon with all the HMs lol :^)

>>31360551
but they're not. it was expressly stated that it was a celebration to give thanks to the guardian, MC becoming the first island champ was seriously just a side note in that situation.

>>31362983
not him but no. had a gyaridos slave, trained that bad boy up to shit stomp everything in its path using only HMs. it was pretty good.

i just want my pokemon to get a license for surfing or riding , like dog's with their blind master.

>>31363177
Something similar happens if you try to get to Azalea from Goldenrod. Want to pick up your apricorn balls? Too bad, come back with Cut.

They have the capability to permanently remove obstacles in the overworld, just look at Rusturf Tunnel. I just dont know why they only did it that once.

>>31363214
>flymon is yet another time for them to shill charizard
>instead of Tropius which isn't even in the dex but would be far more fitting for the region than another mon not in the dex