1995 >gen 1 mt moon >early game dungeon >first multi

I kinda want something inbetween desu

>We'll never get a fuckhuge dungeon like Mt. Coronet ever again.
>DP remakes will replace it with a straight road with no encounters possible.

>>31338292
>What the fuck happened?
Blue ocean happened.

>inb4 all the "earlier games only seemed more challenging because you were a kid!!!" posts

Mt. Moon was really tedious though. There needs to be an inbetween.

>>31338292
I just wanna know why there are so many GAY ASS cutscenes.

>>31338486
Because they wanted to tell a story with characters.

>>31338292
>get healed by NPCs
Wait, that's a thing? I had no idea you could heal your team in the caves because my team was too weakened and underleveled to consider going into trainer battles.

>>31338519
Only by Lillie and Hau. And I guess Kukui at the beginning of the game.

>>31338519

>See NPC ahead
>My team isn't ready to fight them, better go back and heal
>Come back ready to fight
>"Let me heal your team for you"

>>31338544
There's a couple of NPCs here and there who will heal you but they're really not everywhere.

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1995
>Cerulean cave
>post game dungeon
>3 floors requiring surf and strength
>full of nearly 20 different pokemon none of which are apart of zubats line (fuck yellow version)
>levels are from 51-67
>stationary legendary at the end

2016
>resolution cave
>post game dungeon
>2 tiny floors
>only ride pokemon required is mudsdale right at the doorway
>2nd floor is a rehash of previous gens optional cave final floor minus the legendary
>Golbats and dugtrios only
>levels from 54-59
>get one legendary that isn't even stationary, its a random encounter
>may as well be called life orb and earthquake cave

>>31338519
Generation I has one NPC that healed you in Pokemon Tower located in Lavender Town. This is not a new concept.

>>31338605
Take that back it wasn't an NPC, it was an area the NPC purified or something.

>>31338364
>massive dungeon right in the middle of the map
>it's all inter-connected, but you can only explore so much at a time, needing damn near every HM in the game to fully explore
>that peak music

goddammit.

>>31338574
more like
>2016
>Necrozma found in random patch of grass

Blame Gen 4 and Sinnoh which caused a huge amount of people complaining about the region being too complicated resulting in future games being completely linear.

There's 21 different pokemon to catch in Vast Poni Canyon.

>>31338605
>>31338618
Silph Co. did have a NPC who healed you.

It's okay to think Rock Tunnel was more challenging and irritant than Mt. Moon?

>>31338292
Pandering to casuals who only play smartphone apps. GameFreak's somehow worried that app games are an actual competitor to one of the best selling game franchises.

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>Haina desert
>Only 5 available pokemon
>2 are very rare SOS encounters
>1 is fucking dugtrio

>>31338756
Why would people complain about having a game to play? Fucking retards.

>>31338756
>huge amount of people complaining
[Citation needed]

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>>31338756
>"Hoenn has too much water, fuck sea routes"
>no region since has had a mandatory sea route of any respectable length; the closest being Gen 4's route to Victory Road
>"Sinnoh's too complicated and needs too many HMs to do anything"
>future regions are much more linear, and two of the three subsequent generations effectively abolish mandatory HMs altogether in some form
I'm sure there's more, but fuck if I know.

>>31338812
Mt. Moon was mostly tough because it was a marathon at a point where you were still taking off your training wheels. Rock Tunnel was dark and hard to navigate without Flash, and it was also longer and more convoluted.

>>31338292
The journey is a means to an end. They want more players to reach the end.

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>>31339044
>"Hoenn has too much water, fuck sea routes"

the smart thing would have been to just allow you to swim, while also giving water route the same attention to detail like the land routes, so that it isn't just 5 mins of blue waves+rock barriers. Filling the water with something other than 95% tentacool would have the same effect. For fucks sake aren't there more water pokemon than any other type?

>>31338364
Good, Mt Coronet was fucking terrible.

>>31339559
Well, the water routes do lead to some interesting stuff, like Sky Pillar, Abandoned Ship, Mirage Island, the Regi Cave and lots of little islands and secrets with items on them. SO they're really not to bad for exploring. But I must agree, they should have more encounters. Wailord and Sharpedo should be surf encouters, since most people don't fish for whales and sharks

>>31339044
>two of the three subsequent generations effectively abolish mandatory HMs altogether in some form

This is unironically a good thing. HMs place big restrictions on team options and movesets, so you're either sacrificing moveslots on your good Pokemon for shit like Cut (Surf and Waterfall are good moves but hope you like having both) or sacrificing an entire party slot for a Bidoof just to have Rock Smash. And they serve the exact same function as your pic: an obstacle that arbitrarily disappears after you progress to some point.

>>31339559
Hoenn's sea routes lead to all sorta of hidden things, most of which are completely optional. And that's a good thing desu.

There are a lot of water types because marine animals are the most populous in the world.

>most players left unfulfilled

Sadly, not the case. Also there's multiple reasons why the dungeons in Alola are shit. Most of it is GF can't design areas outside of a grid worth shit yet, and not being able to abuse "tilesets" to cut down workload. Even Kalos had far better dungeons, and they weren't even particularly good.

>>31339005
That was mostly a thing in Japan. A lot of children complained with Platinum in particular, no one bitched about that on DP back then though.

>>31339044
Let me tell you something. I have an 11 year old nephew, who can roughly speak for the target audience. Spends all day on free iphone games and "flipping bottles" when not idolisng me. As such he plays a lot of the same video games I do. Now he will come round, after months, having progressed probably an average of one gym at a time and tell me, "I JUST dont know where to go". This is the audience its appealing to. By the by, its never a difficult puzzle, its always walking in a certain direction.

>>31338574
>>31338292
Gen 1 didn't come out in 1995 you fucking mediocrities.

>>31339622
>Wailord and Sharpedo should be surf encounters

I believe r/s had one route capable of producing wailords.

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My biggest problem was the godawful biodiversity in boring routes. I can live with a shit map if there are interesting pokemon to catch. Look at Route 16 in Alola. You can catch Pelipper, like almost every route in Alola, you can catch Gumshoos like almost every route, and you can catch Slowpoke, like on the first island, only you're now at least 60% of the way through the main story. It's awful. A coastal section of the map going into a meadow/forest area could have all sorts. Dwebble, Pineco, Shuckle, Chatot, Hoothoot, Zorua, Lickitung, Hoppip, Sentret are all sorts of interesting mons you could put there.

>>31338292
Chargestone cave=best

>>31339870
Gen 5 was the best for "biodiversity", prove me wrong.

>>31339977
Now are you saying that because it lacked mons from other games?

Honestly, gen 5 is the only game that feels like GF designed the region then the pokemon around it.

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>>31339977
Those dubs confirm it.

>>31340034
It absolutely should be done that way; or at the very least they should just put every pokémon in from the get go and distribute them into realistic habitats.

>>31338292
>first multi floored dungeon despite being so late game
so, one-floored dungeon = automatically bad? that's kind of ridiculous, no?

>one winding and twisting path, impossible to get lost, impossible to really explore
except for the paths off to the side that exist

>inside is full of golbats plus a 3 other pokemon despite being late game and having 800+ pokemon the devs could fill a cave with
maybe because they're trying to appeal to the genwunner audience, the Pokemon demographic with the most money and buying power?

>get healed by npc every other room despite probably having a full team, being 10+ levels higher than any trainer/pokemon within, having bag full of free heals from other npcs, and access to pokemon refresh
I was usually 2-3 levels below the average trainer and 4-8 levels below important NPCs. Don't complain about the game being easy because you pressed the "easy" button, retard

>most players left unfulfilled because of how short, and easy a late game dungeon was
first off,
>most players left unfulfilled
>most players
>????
second, it really was about as long as every other main game dungeon. and, probably harder as well. your rivals didn't have 6IV mons with competitive EV spreads back then.

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>>31339633
Here's the thing: There are so many different ways to solve the problem than just "lol get rid of it", and my point is that that's what Game Freak keeps doing instead of actually solving anything. Make HM moves not actually have to take up moveslots. Make all the moves themselves not shit, and not just two out of eight. If the moves still have heavy influence on team typings, then at least make sure that they promote team builds with decent coverage.

>And they serve the exact same function as your pic: an obstacle that arbitrarily disappears after you progress to some point.
Not really. The obstacle doesn't disappear, for one; it just ceases to be an obstacle once you have the means to solve it. Another thing is that obstacles that are based in nature (5-tile wide pools of water aside) are slightly more forgivable and less inherently annoying than walls of children/Slowpoke/Psyduck/Wailmer/fucking offscreen Durant totally please believe me; if all you ever see is the latter, your patience will probably wear down quickly. The biggest thing that HMs allow that mere walls of plot don't, though, is to actually have puzzles instead of simple roadblocks, especially off the beaten path.

The Ride Pager is the best implemented solution yet to the HM problem, but that doesn't mean that it was the best solution possible. Especially when most SM roadblocks aren't even solved by the Pager, because they're Captain Gates and assholes riding dogs and shit.

>>31339848
It was almost certainly finalized in 1995 considering it shipped in February of 96. Considering the OP is talking about design decisions it's really not that inaccurate.

>>31339870
>Tropius isn't in the dex despite having a jungle and Tropical in its name
>could have even been a perfect fit for a flier

Alola was R/S tier terrible with variety

>>31338364
>We'll never get a fuckhuge dungeon like Mt. Coronet ever again.
I know. It's great. We'll never have to expierience something as boring, shitty, and tedious ever again!

>>31338486
because they wanted the characters to have real persobality and act kind of like humans

>>31338756
>a huge amount of people
source?

>>31339044
>literally implying that we should bring HMs back
sinnohfetuses will go so low to defend their shitty games, it's incredible.

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>>31339870
cherrypicking a route without a lot of diversity is retarded. you could do the same thing with Hoenn.
>"what I hated about Hoenn was the lack of diversity. after you beat the last gym leader, the route afterwards has only tentacruel and pelipper."

pic related, also. stop cherrypicking.

>>31340143
>Not really. The obstacle doesn't disappear, for one; it just ceases to be an obstacle once you have the means to solve it.
so basically, it disappears

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>>31340167
yeah this anon was SO RIGHT the alola dex as a whole just SUCKS because they didn't put in that one Pokemon that I like!

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>>31340132
>this entire post

>>31340294
>>31340303

>>31340294
Oh piss off, like 70% of the fucking encounters are the same 7 pokemon. Nobody wants to see the wingull line on 20 fuckin routes

>>31340132
I don't think you understand what a "genwunner" is.

>>31340257
>tree in way
>cut down tree after reaching plot point
>tree reappears later, but you can just cut it down again if you have something that can Cut with you

>Hiker blocking path forward
>Hiker no longer blocking path after reaching plot point, and may in fact disappear entirely without a trace

Even in strictly mechanical terms, there's a distinct difference.

>Sinnohfetus
I never liked Gen 4, don't get me wrong. Rock Climb and Defog were as stupid as Gens 2/3 having three (3) water-based HMs each, and Sinnoh never captivated me the way it has for the comfyposters.

Also Waterfall as an HM was always the dumbest thing ever, so at least that's not a thing anymore.

In 2017 kids and college students aren't going to want to spend 2 hours going through a shitty cave filled with the same 3 Pokemon. Those both happen to be the biggest demographics for Pokemon. Not everyone is a sperglord who wants to go through arbitrarily annoying caves just for the "sense of exploration."

>>31340294
>hawaiian region surrounded by water
>90% of what you fish up is magikarp

nice distribution / dex faggot

>>31340238
Hoenn was also very bad for it, but if you think I'm cherry picking for Alola, you're delusional.

Route 1 (including outside Ten Carat Hill & the trainer school) has 15 species (not including evos/SOS/island scan etc) that can't be caught in any previous routes

Route 2 has 8

Route 3 has 4

Route 4 has 4

Route 5 in the south has 1 (again, I'm not counting Butterfree as a new species as caterpie was available on route 1)

Route 6 has 0

Route 7 has 2

Route 8 has 2, if you include wimpod

Route 9 has 0

Route 10 has 2

Route 11 has 1

Route 12 has 3

Route 13 has 1 (Bruxish, 1% chance to fish or 20% on a bubbling spot)

Route 14 has 0

Route 15 has 0

Route 16 has 0

Route 17 has 1 in Goomy when it's raining as an SOS

Now obviously that isn't counting all the named locations which will have some more biodiversity, but the routes are dogshit for it.

>>31340167
I really think that as bad RS can be in matter of variety, DPPt was even worse.

>>31340389
>>31340238
You know, I'd actually be interested in seeing how each of the mainline games compares in this regards. Treating each family as a single pokemon, and assuming each route has the same number of encounters (Or weighting them by the size of the route if you want to complicate it). How many pokemon make up the top 50% of wild pokemon encounters, how many make up the top 75%? There anyone out there interested in crunching some numbers?

>>31340504
I remember Bidoof and Starly's line being in far too many areas. I usually just catch a couple mons in SS and trade them over to Plat if i replay it.

>>31340451
It's worth mentioning once you do include the trial locations etc, the route numbers get even worse

>>31338364
>We'll never get a fuckhuge dungeon like Mt. Coronet ever again.
Thank fucking God!

>>31340519
Don't forget Kricketot/Kricketune with their WHOOPA WHOOOPA WOOP WHOOP

>>31338292
There's no fucking exploration in mt moon wtf.

Oh wow a dead end!!!! So cool!!!!!!!!!!

>>31338292
Because kid's attention spans are much lower now than they were back then, even the devs of Pokemon said so in response to being questioned about the games becoming easier. A modern kid would probably quit around mount moon and move on to the thousands of other games available to him for free.

>>31338836
Most Japanese developers share this concern, because in Japan it's very real. Not so much outside of Japan, but even in the States you see more kids playing Fruit Ninja and shit on their parents' smartphones and tablets than you do a kid with an actual handheld system.

>idiots arguing

the games are bad

sun and moon is bad

the only thing it did was give showdown more options for OU

pokemon as you love it is dying and the next games will just be one long, linear cutscene with a fuckton of polish. time to find something else

>>31340778
but Sun/Moon are good anon

it's understandable if you just like to do the fighting part of Pokemon, but you have to understand that different people have different tastes. some people, including myself, enjoy having it being more focused on the story, since I feel like I'm more connected with my Pokemon.

>>31338937
Yeah!
Hey guys, lets dig up those ET cartridges eh?

>>31340972

>more focused on the story

there is virtually no story. its full of fatalistic bullshit and the same tropes pokemon has had 8 times now. on top of that, you don't discover anything yourself, the entire thing is spoonfed to you with cutscenes. the game is hard to finish and harder still to keep playing after you force yourself through it.

im sorry but your opinion is stupid and you're retarded.

>>31342148
This.

>>31339590
>>31340195
>>31340542
>I want my games pisseasy

Neck yourselves

>>31341931
Fucking faggot you also probably want Victory Road to be a straight path, off yourself.

Mt Moon was fucking awful. There's an early challenge, then there's being overly irritating. Mt Moon is arguably the worst part of the entire of Kanto. It's not fun exploration, it's tedious. And Sinnoh's HM loaded Mt Coronet was bland and boring until the peak, especially as Sinnoh was just cave central.

I do wish SM had better dungeons though.

>>31342

>>31338292
Y

>>31347065
>Mt. Coronet
>Hard
Pick one.

>>31340451
If you don't include evos the numbers will look like shit for other gens too, but I do agree in general. I was super hyped after the first few routes because there was so much diversity, but that all went down the drain later on.

>>31338292
>What the fuck happened?
20 years of improvement, more or less.

>>31347065
S/M are the only Pokemon games I've ever been challenged by, what the fuck are you smoking?

>>31338364
>>31339590
>>31340195
>>31340542

>People don't like Mt. Coronet

I bet you people couldn't even make it to the top.

>>31347904
You're pathetic if you found SM to be difficult. Even with Exp-Share off and set mode it's still easy. But then again, most pokemon games are easy.

>>31338364
That's because Coronet was a clusterfuck of a design.

>>31340195
>>31338510
They could still do it without forbidding us from saving the game.

>>31348213
Do you know what a dungeon is?

>>31338292
>and might mistakenly try to fight everything
You say as if Paras, Zubat and Clefairy are threathening. Not mentioning you can run from everything unlike Aslowla.

>>31348069
Have you even played it with exp share off? I was like 10 levels below the E4 and had to rely on evasion cheese

>>31348277
>Because it's a dungeon that justifies the retarded design!
This is why no one takes you Sinnohfetuses seriously,

>>31348277
Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire (Bar Quarter), SMT, Chrono Trigger and every other Pokemon game that isn't DPPt had dungeons that weren't designed by a retard, were extremely diverse and felt fun to explore.

What's Coronet's excuse?

I could list off more games but you should get the point by now.

>>31348361
Wouldn't be so sure on that. SMT I and II ones certainly aren't diverse. SMT IV's "dungeons" are corridors.
Nocturne and SJ did them right, but we're talking about dungeon crawlers, something Pokémon is not.
I don't see how Mt. Coronet is "less fun" than any FF VI dungeon. I think it did a great as the cornerstone of Sinnoh: ambients changed as you progressed through the plot and so did the music.

>>31338292
>inside is full of golbats plus a 3 other pokemon despite being late game and having 800+ pokemon the devs could fill a cave with
Oh so i cloud fill this cave with Flabebes, or Zigzagoons, OR EVEN PHIONIE

>>31338364
This, sadly

>>31338364

Fuck...it hurts.

>>31339699
again you're claiming things without any fact to back that up, also Sinnoh is pretty much linear like others regions, you're always progressing through an obvious straight line, the only times where that's not the case is when you need to backtrack late game, and besides having access to Fly the game always tells you where to go next

>>31348069
I was constantly 2-4 levels behind most trainers, and about 5-8 levels below most boss battles. I didn't grind except for totem lurantis, and I didn't use any pseudos on my team.

if you want to have a team of metagross, garchomp, salamence, and the other OU mons available, all 6IV and with competitive EV spreads, with the exp share on, go ahead. but don't say the game is easy.

>>31348694
>caves have only bats and rocks in them

>>31348694
>not filling it with various bug and a grass type based on moss or mold