>Eevium Z Is banned from doubles OU R.I.P. Greninja Mat

>>30959293
Just taunt lmao.

>>30959293
>Let's ban everything
With each ban smogon loses more credibility.

>>30959464
>implying eevee/necrozma passing wasn't complete destruction

Says who?

>>30959509
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-dou-stage-0-tale-as-old-as-time-magearna-and-zygarde-quickbanned-eevium-z-quickbanned.3587831/page-3#post-7145162

>implying smogon is real pokemon tourney format

lol just use a fighting type

>>30959464
GF's fault for constantly adding more and more broken game mechanics.

Someone is too big a bitch for anything goes

>>30959528
Oh ok nobody important then

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>VGC is good because it's official
>I like it because it's faster ie I'm too much of a retard for strategy

>smogon doubles
Just play VGC lol

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>>30959591
Let's get this started

>>30959549
i cant use it on pokebank doubles ou anymore

>>30959591
theres only one instance of one pokemon on that list that resists psychic

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>>30959616

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>>30959616
>>30959635
I saw someone earlier whining that a screencap of this was being taken out of context.
The context is so much worse.

>>30959643
What do you mean?

>>30959293
So what made this strategy broken?

>>30959293
The fuck? That's not even overpowered. I prefer smogon to vgc but they really do ban everything (EXCEPT GENESECT AND DEOXYS-ROACH)

Did Eevee literally just become so good they had to ban it

Where am I
What universe is this

Smogon bans something because it was centralizing the meta, granting people easy wins if they pulled it off, and was unfun to fight against.

So where's all the other bans then? What they're describing in those ban reasons is legitimately 95% of OU.

>>30959591
Excuse my ignorance but why all those kangaskhans when they choose megamence as their mega?

>>30959669
greninja would protect eevee first turn

Second turn greninja would switch out and eevee would baton pass all the boost to greninja and proceed to sweep as Ash Greninja

Guys wtf is HypnoGrav?

>>30959464
>Let's just not ban anything and have a healthy meta of only 7 viable pokemon

With each new game the pokemon company loses more credibility.

>>30959707
They never banned Lando-T so it's easy to assume they just ban thing because it helps them to win, that's why SR is also still around.

>>30959708
In VGC, you bring 6 but use 4. So every team have Mega Salamence and Mega Kangashkan, but players will use the one that's better against the opponent team.

>>30959739
>>Let's just not ban anything and have a healthy meta of only 7 viable pokemon
You mean like current OU?

>>30959692
no they banned eevium-z, eevee is still usable

>>30959691
it became overpowered because receivers like necrozma were unreasonably difficult to stop. things that would stop it like phazing, haze, toxic were uncommon and dead weight most of the time

>>30959783
>no they banned eevium-z, eevee is still usable

But they banned the only thing that makes Eevee usable.

>>30959803
now eevee can join wobbuffet

>>30959731
Haven't paid much attention to the meta yet but guessing Hypnosis + Gravity for the increased accuracy.

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>>30959591
>>30959616
>>30959635
please kys
Also San Jose regionals finals was Fini vs no tapu.

>>30959293
Bravest Bird could have stopped this strategy, but it's no longer among us

>>30959293
>hypnogravity clause
>now this
Is DOU the most retarded smogon metagame?

>>30959528
>those essays about why it should be banned
Fuck me. I've never seen something so inconsequential be taken so seriously.

Can't wait until Nintendo C&D's Smogon lmfao.

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>>30959770
Landorus-T isn't overcentralizing. Landorus-T is what kept things in check that would otherwise be overcentralizing.

You're a retard if you complain about Pokémon being overused in the overused tier.

le ebin Smogon vs VGC debate

>>30959949
all competitive pokemon communities ive seen have weird standards for ban/noban arguments

for something like eevium-z where its an early-meta gimmick and not a staple, you shouldn't need more than a medium sized paragraph explaining your stance

At this point they're actively discouraging people from trying out new strategies they've come up with for fear that it will upset the status quo and the distinguished OU Council will ban it.

>>30959773
So the one that's better against their own team then?

> What do you mean I have to counter threats outside the standard cookie cutter comps?! Ridiculous.
>Ban
>Ban
>Ban
>"I hit myself in confusion twice, ben swagr."
>Ban
Le Smogon should just make a list of all 12 eligible mons and be done.

>>30959776
Theres like 40 pokemon in OU.

>>30960422
You.

Bloody hell I don't even know what's bait and what isn't in this thread.

>>30960284
There is a difference between a new strategy and breaking the game. Look at what happened to Baton Pass in Gen VI.

I thought eevium z would be already intrinsically banned as it is illegal to pass a boost to more than one stat.

>>30959293
screw smogon, I'm tired of there council dictating what is ban and not just because they are to lazy to come up a better counter measure that isn't full proof. You can always find a way to win that's what games are for. I'm still using Eevee and they can cry about it, nows the time we go against a bunch of losers trying to control the game

Good, Psyche-Up chains were bananas

Also fuck Jirachi, let's remember he is the best enabler for this kind of gimmicks.

>>30959616
>>30959635

Never thought I'd see Gastrodon. What does Gastrodon run?

Bunch of fuckin' crybabies. I'm surprised they didn't ban Magic Bounce 'caus eit fucks with their "ROCKS TO THE END, BABY!" main strategy.

Smorons: "If it kills sneaky pebbles dead, ban it!"

>>30960503
but only the same 6 get used over and over
be real here

Does Snatch work to take the stat boosts when Eevee does it? If not, why not use Psych Up?

>>30960975
what do you suppose should be done about it then

>>30959464
>Years of Swagger existing without note
>Suddenly banned for being too strong and unfunny and everyone agrees and acts like it was a complaint they all had for years

>>30960975
OU is based on usage though
By definition even the lowest OU mon is used in ~3.5% of all teams.

>>30960688
You don't have to play Smogon you know.

So can I use it in AG still? That's the only one I end up playing.

>>30961055
Evopass only works in doubles.

>it's another "people whine about smogon's angry balancing changes despite them having zip to do with the actual game's rules and only affecting their own simulator" episode

>>30961065
Is there no doubles AG? I haven't played in months, I used to just have some anti-fug team until my cookies got erased.

>>30961108
its allowed in ag, i think he said the strategy only works in doubles, as in eevee is a sitting duck in singles

>>30961134
Yes I know there's singles AG, I was just wondering if there was a doubles AG.

>>30961165
if doubles ag exists, it sure doesnt on showdown

>>30961185
Ah well, I thought there was some interesting little trick to try out, maybe a reason to look at old showdown again. I'm always too late to the boat to try any of the fun stuff before they ban it.

>>30959616
>>30959635
Wait, you're pulling mirror matches from the same year, meaning that at least four Pokémon are equally viable this year, as opposed to Gen 6 OU's "Bulky Ground with Stealth Rock + 5 counters to Bulky Ground with Stealth Rock"

>>30961017
>tournament conductors round a list of viable pokemon
>participants have to pick 6, but cannot choose the same pokemon if it has been picked already
>variety and skill is used other than "LOL COOKIE CUTTER STRATS XD"

>>30959956
They won't. TPCI on the other hand... ;)

>>30961024
I think it was the invention of pranks that pushed it over the edge.

>>30960905
Gastro can easily deal with both koko, araquanid, forces koko to switch after sludge bomb/EQ and storm drain is nasty against any water type

I fondly remember the days before they banned funbro

>>30961348
i like this, but one point

>participants have to pick 6, but cannot choose the same pokemon if it has been picked already

they should be handed out randomly, otherwise it would just be a race to pick whatever is the best of whats left

>>30961348
Forcing variety is a great way to give someone a free advantage.

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>>30960179
Ignore that post, I was thinking of something else and now realized how retarded it sounded.

>>30961693
Better than the same teams using the same moves and same strategies all over again. Pick your poison. Wizards with shitmons defeating shitters with ubers would be nice to see.

>>30961774
>Better than the same teams using the same moves and same strategies all over again.
Except in many cases even teams made up of the same Pokemon don't have exactly the same sets. Movesets or EV spreads might be different, as well as the manner in which they are used. You're trying to force variety on a superficial level without considering how the players themselves are different.

>>30961846
So how do you think VGC should be "fixed"? Unless you want it to remain a running gag for it's "unique" competitive scene.

>>30960686
I thought it was just speed and another stat is banned

>>30961946
you can't "fix" a game with randomness tied to every part of its gameplay

>>30960686
This is only for OU Singles.
OU Doubles doesn't have Baton Pass clauses.

>>30962048
Right, even when every RNG aspect is removed, every player is a retarded autist that has no clue how to play Pokemon and everybody mashes buttons until we receive someone is a victor.

>>30959783

Maybe they should ban the fucking legendary pokemon that's banned from normal gameplay.

>ou doubles
literally just play VGC instead

>>30960975
If you don't play OU don't talk about it, dumb bitch.

>fucking Eevium Z is banned
Pathetic as hell.

>>30959293
Seriously? There are a ton of ways to shut down Eevee and turn it into dead weight for your opponent.

And in Doubles 6v6 its still a possibility to take out something with +2 boosts.

>>30959464

Maybe if Gamefreak actually knew balancing, then Smogon wouldn't have to ban every damn thing.

>>30962618
Or, you know, Smogon could use the decent format as a main instead of Singles.

>>30959635
>My boy Gastrodon is making it big
About time.

>>30959718

Switching out via normal switch or U-turn?

>>30961024

The thing that pushed it over the edge was the increase of Prankster users.

But now that confusion rate is nerfed to 33% instead of the 50% chance, it will never get banned again as Swagger is just too much risk for not enough reward these days (and it also got an accuracy nerf)

>>30959718
>predict the really obvious Evoboost/Mat Block and set up
>or use fake out
>mat block fucking sucks, just use fake out
>double target into frog when it obviously gets switched in, or take out the Eevee with the double target instead
So fucking hard

>>30959885
>weather setter on each team but italy

>>30962647
>thread is about Doubles

>>30959691

>Pass to Necrozma
>win

Do you even look at the reasons why they ban things or do you just see the word "ban" and go into a frenzy. In doubles, there are WAY more opportunities to pass E-vo Boost than there are in singles due to shit like wide guard, follow me, mat block, etc.

>b-but haze

Haze only has 5 viable users in Doubles OU and 4 of them have 4MSS syndrome

>b-but roar/dragon tail/whirlwind

see above

>b-but toxic

Necrozma will kill your entire team before toxic wears it off also
>toxic
>doubles

>b-but just double hit it!

+2 on a Pokemon with 97/107/89 with Prism Armor means even the strongest of Dark and Ghost types fail to 2HKO with Choice items.


And don't worry, Pheromosa will get suspected someday. it's a cancer, but not immediate cancer like Zygarde-C and Landorus-I are, and Genesect will most likely get the boot fairly soon as well.

>>30962409
It lets you double all stats!
That's an insane amount of power!

>>30963297
Yeah, that's why boosting moves are so great in VGC, right? Doubles gives you an enormous amount of tools to deal with set ups, and even though there are more ways to defend the booster as well, the benefits aren't as big as the risks that come with double targetting, Fake Out, Follow Me fucking up your strategy, Trick Room, etc. If you don't have a single way to deal with it, you're a shitty team builder.

>Set up tailwind/trick room turn one, double into the Eevee turn 2
>Use Roar/Psych Up/Heart Swap/Topsy Turvy/Haze/etc on Eevee slot turn 2
>Use Taunt on Eevee turn 1/2
>Use Ghost type Curse
>Use Perish Song
>Just fucking Fake Out something and attack

Is it that hard? You only need one of the above to ruin the whole strategy.

>>30964244

>tailwind
only one viable user in Doubles OU
>Roar
see above
>Heart Swap
>Topsy Turvy
Nigga...
>Haze
see first point
>psych up
not stopping Stored Power Necrozma.
>taunt
simply switch out if you see a taunt user
>ghost curse
see first point
>perish song
see first point
>fake out
switch

A smart person wouldn't use Evo Boost turn one. They'll either get rid of its checks or easily sniff out that haze user you just so boldy switch into with a care in the world

You act like the Evo Boost user only has two pokemon on the team. You're dealing with Evo Boost+ 5 other Pokemon

>>30960530
>Look at what happened to Baton Pass in Gen VI
You mean that time Smogon had an aneurysm when they learned they had to run Taunt in high ladder play?

>>30962771
le regenerating mushroom of happy redirections

>>30963194
>4MSS syndrome
>Four move slot syndrome syndrome

>>30962447
>

dude....they don't care about YOUR strategy, they do care about their OU strategies and it's safety goggles

>>30966973
I don't really think they care about their Safety Goggles. I mean, it's not a useless item, but it only really has uses in Hail and Sandstorms.

>>30959447
But that's too centralizing! I don't want to run Taunt on my team!

>>30962860
>2016
>still complaining about weather

>>30966574

Never heard of an ATM Machine?

>>30967276
You know it blocks powder moves like Spore and Rage Powder, right?

>>30963194
>toxic
>doubles
Confirmed scrub.

People just want easy KOs it seems.

>>30967374

only bad kids use Toxic in Doubles OU.

ITT: people who have never played a single match in smogon doubles, and likely barely play any doubles format at all, claim something was not broken in smogon doubles.

>>30959293
Is it a viable strategy to use in doubles in battle tree?

>>30967483
But muh time dicking around with my in-game team in battlespot doubles surely gives me enough experience to comment on a ban made by the least ban-happy tier in smogon.

>>30967483
How come nobody in VGC bothered to use Eevee, m8?

>>30967748
You can't use Ashninja in VGC

>>30967748
You can't use Greninja and 6 Pokemon in VGC you retarded cunt.

>>30960530
Baton Pass was pretty bad in Gen VI, but let's not pretend that Smogon never had a massive hate on for it. They always have, dating all the way back to Gen III where there was a stigma against it, as using it had people assume that you weren't skilled enough to win with a "real" team.

Generally, I don't have much of a problem with what they ban...but they need to get the fuck over themselves and just admit that they're keeping overcentralizing and broken things in the game (Stealth Rock) because it would be a bigger pain in the ass to go on without it at this point. Hiding it under a veneer of 'well it keeps broken stuff in check' just obliterates whatever arguments they have for other broken shit, really.

>>30967748
Maybe because there's less pokemon in it, meaning less pokemon available to support eevee, meaning the strategy isn't as good.

VGC 17 and DOU are both doubles formats. That is where the similarities end. Here's some important differences that, you know, may or may not influence how good Eeveepass is in DOU
>megas are allowed
>post-bank pokemon are allowed
>legendaries like Necrozma and Jirachi are allowed
>six pokemon instead of four
>tutor, event, old TM, etc. moves are allowed
>no item clause

These formats are ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ALIKE. They are even more different than smogon OU and Battlespot singles are different. Unless you play DOU, do not comment on how DOU operates. They are extremely conservative with bans, not even remotely similar to the singles tiers.

>>30967841
>>30967860

Not him, but whats stopping your from just subbing le matblock frog with something that knows wide guard and u-turn, like Mienshao?

>>30968042
Miensho is trash and isn't legal until bank

>>30968042
>why not use this pokemon that isn't available in the format until pokebank is released.

>>30959885
>Hariyama

...Wat?

>>30968055
>>30968101

Pelipper can learn both and is pre-bank legal.

An evoboosted pelipper effectively has 60/100/200/180/140/130 stats, not to mention the drizzleboosts and whatever item you make it hold.

>>30964558
So use UU mons? Hell, you have an entire list there and you autistically thought just ONE mon means that's a dead start.

You're arguing one start is OP right now, you were given counters.

Stop crying.

Hell, the fact that topsy turvy directly counters this is hilarious.

>>30968140
Very few fighting types available and it has fake out.

>>30959293
OVERPOWERED

>>30968245
Man the lack of shit really makes the game better.

I mean third place has Krookodile.

>>30968242

The only reason your shitty Topsy Turvy stratt works because you face against sub 1400 shitters.

If everything was dictated on sub 1400 shitters, then the only Pokemon (currently) that would be banned is Celesteela.

>>30967276

I don't know if that was sarcasm but by SG I meant protective bubble

>>30968241

>+2 252 SpA Life Orb Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celesteela: 398-469 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO in Rain

Oh man i've got to try this set out.

>>30968306
>B-But you're low on Smogon because you counter a high level strat with a "Shitmon"

Nah, sounds like Smogon just can't adapt.

>>30959447
yeah just use a prankster to taunt Grenin-
>dark type LOL
o-ok maybe taunt Eev-
>evoboost counts as an offense move since it uses trump card as the base move LOL

The memes are too extreme. SHUT IT DOWN.

I just love how people bitch about how it wasn't broken, and then start talking about Stealth rocks and the like. I mean, did you guys read "banned" but not the "DOUBLES" part, or do you like to pretend to be retarded?

Also, VGC is not Doubles OU. In DOU you have six mons instead of four, and things like tutor moves, Necrozma, Jirachi and bank mons are allowed.

>>30968242
This

>>30968395

Smogon bans based on overcentralization, not because they "can't adapt"

Blaziken has quite a few counters for exmple, but no one wants to carry around an Azumarril, Slowbro and whatever every single match just so on the off chance they happen to run into a Blaziken. Just like how no one wants to carry around shitty Haze users and forgoing a moveslot on Gengar all the time on Perish Song on the off chance that you face against an Evo Boost team, it's not fun.

>>30968590
>Smogon bans based on overcentralization
>Weather wars
>Genies
>Stealth rock needs to be played around on every team

No, Smogon ban based on their ideas of what THEY want.

Nobody wants to run Rapid Spin because Spikes and Toxic spikes are niche as fuck, but Stealth rock shuts down a good 4 types by existing on the field.

Remove stealth rock, and all of a sudden Bug, Flying, Fire and Ice types are more represented.

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>>30968395
>>30968242
>>30968582
Topsy Turvy can be redirected so no, it doesn't hard counter Eeveepass. I can only imagine you have never once used Topsy Turvy to handle eeveepass, and I can go out on a limb and say you've never played against eeveepass nor played a single match in doubles OU, you just want to meme about how smogon is bad at the game and how they're all retarded for not using fucking Malamar on their team.

Haze is the only hard counter to eeveepass but it's not like it's an automatic loss if you successfully shut it down. Essentially all you've done is turn eevee into death fodder, they still have five other pokemon (eeveepass teams were not completely centered around eeveepass, they can still be competent teams without eevee.)

On the other hand, if they do successfully pass, it's essentially an automatic win.

>>30968641

>Weather wars

not overcentralizing. There were still tons of non weather teams. Some of the best teams in the ladder back in Gen 5 were weatherless

>genies

annoying as hell, but Landorus-T isn't singlehandedly winning games. Plus Lando-I got banned anyway, cause no one wants to waste a slot on Cresselia just so they can reliably beat Lando-I, and if Lando-I isn't on the other team, you're basically fighting a 5 v. 6

>stealth rock

that's the only one I'll give you. I still don't understand why it hasn't been ban, nor has Gamefreak nerfed it.

>>30968641
>Remove stealth rock, and all of a sudden Bug, Flying, Fire and Ice types are more represented.
This is retarded and is simply never the case because Volcorona, Talonflame, and Charizard were all OU mons at one point you gigantic fucking idiot. When will this dumb meme argument ever end? To also go off it, a SR ban does nothing but make mons that are already somewhat decent even better because they have less to worry about in terms of residual damage

Meaning Stall teams get better without Rocks and Multiscale Dragonite becomes a fucking nightmare

>>30968728
>Doesn't understand the word Centralizing.

Those weatherless teams were built with ways to take advantage of and counter weather and could not have one otherwise.

>>30968760

By that logic, Alolawak is overcentralizing.

>>30968811
What? No, that's not how it works at all. A-Marowak fulfills a specific niche because the meta is currently centered around UBs and Tapus, with A-Wak countering every UB and at least 2 Tapus on its own. A-Wak as a viable strategy would not exist without the current meta

>>30968811
>A Pokemon used entirely because he counters Top Kek and the UBs
>Overcentralized.

Alolawak is overblown. He's literally Marowak with a technically worse type.

It's like saying Arcanine is Overcentralising because intimidate and Will-o-Wisp.

He's a symptom not a cause you fucking klutz.

>>30968862
I love how Alolan Marowak is basically the most technically sub-mon who lucked out with tons of options to fuck over.

>Fire and Ghost as a physically defensive slow physical attacker.
>Only gets an 80BP ghost move
>Lightningrod a normally meh ability

>>30968920
Lightning rod is actually an amazing ability, this is just the first time we've gotten it on something that doesn't already resist/is immune to electric in the first place, or is shit.

Like, its typing+electric immunity is really good, it has so many resists.

>>30968728
Gamefreak not nerfing it is probably due to them only caring about the VGC format

Stealth Rocks isn't exactly common there

>>30968641
Rocks exist to punish switch spam you sub 1200 shitter.

Rocks didn't make your "bro" Ariados garbage, it was already garbage to begin with. Ho-Oh is Uber despite being 4x weak to Rocks, Volcarona was OU despite being 4x weak to Rocks, Articuno has never been good even before Rocks.

Stop blaming Rocks for your shitmons being shit, they are shit with or without it.

>>30970173


> Articuno has never been good even before Rocks.

Dropped from being too good for UU to NU because of the introduction of Rocks, you don't know anything about the subject you're talking about.

SR decimates specific mons entirely, and no bullshit " it was already garbage to begin with" will somehow deny that.

Volcarona is an outlier, and Ho-Oh has sky high stats.

>>30970613
>Volcarona is an outlier
So is Talonflame
And Charizard
And Pinsir (it's Mega at least)
And in Gen 4, the Gen that Stealth Rocks was introduced in, Ninjask and Yanmega were played perfectly fine. Ninjask in particular fell out of favor for Scolipede in later gens

If your only example is Articuno, a mon that was always hot garbage and had to compete for spots on teams against god damn Regice then I think whatever point you were attempting to make is trash