http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread s/aegislash-is-now-banne

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Rip brother

Leave gen 7 to me

almost like it's the exact same shit as last gen. wow!

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>>30361368
F ;_;7

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>singles

RIP Smogonsword. You were too good for this world.

>>30361368
So when is Pheromosa leaving?

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>>30361582
Mind if I join you, friend?

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>I can stop running a protective pads pursuit trapper now

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>>30361368
>Zygarde
>Aegislash
>But not Pheromosa

Fucking hell Smogon you have ONE JOB. I legit beat the bullshit out of Aegis with a goddamn Tsareena but you still let slutroach run rampant who is the most blatantly broken thing since mega fug

>>30361813
Probably very soon because one of the few things that deals with her is now gone. IDK who's retarded fucking ass decided to ban aegislash first.

>>30361986
>I legit beat the bullshit out of Aegis with a goddamn Tsareena
Fucking how

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Thank fuck, now I don't need to worry about that shit.

>>30361840
yes you suck

>>30361986
Calm your autism sperglord, Pheromosa is getting the boot next.

>>30362019
Tsareena is stupidly bulky, I guess chip damage till aegislash falls.

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>>30361986
She will go for sure.
At least other decent pokes like Toxa,Mantine, and Hawaii Maro wall her.

>>30362063
>FREE set up
>Access to play rough, shadow claw, shadow sneak, sword dance, leech life, and other nice coverage moves
>A respectable BST
>Great typing
Yeah, no. He'll wreck in singles.

>>30361368
This fucking wall of text ... why did they unban it in the first place then. They really have no clue.

No one is shocked or saddened.

>>30362148
>He'll wreck in singles
in UU LOL

topu fucking keko

>>30362163

Things that aren't designed to be broken like box legends get unbanned at the start of gens to test if they're still broken.

>>30362163
Everything unbans in a new format.

Gen 7 dropped, they have to look at the 'mon pool wholesale.
Why they don't do it whenever a new game drops is beyond me, however.

>>30362163
Because every gen is fair game.

Except for Deoxys that didn't deserve the chance.

>>30362209
Don't say I didn't tell you so. Just because A. Marowak can counter Tapus doesn't mean he'll be OU either.

Best nature/moveset for Pheromosa/Buzzwhole?

>>30362163
>FUCK YOU SMOGON FUCKYOUFUCKYOU WHY DID YOU BAN AEGISLASH
>alright, since a new gen is starting I guess we'll give it a chance
>WHY THE FUCK DID YOU UNBAN ITS WAY TOO GOOD WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU EXPECTING

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>>30362249
Naive and Adamant

So I'm new to this, why should I care about rules that are enforced nowhere in game? Is there even a matchmaking for 6v6 ?

>>30362019
Aegis has been disgustingly predictable this gen. You can usually see the Kings shield coming from a mile away so I just use splash on the predicted turns and chipped away with trop kick

He was outright setup fodder for Zygarde too which was hilarious

>>30362314
you shouldn't care unless you play on smogon's retarded simulator instead of actually playing the game with the game

>>30361988
Obviously Auxilleryshitfag and Trickster.

>>30362311
Thanks!

>>30362314
If you are interested only on vgc or 3v3 battlespot then you shouldn't.
If you like 6v6 singles it is the best alternative.
>>30362399
Np

>>30361368
what the fuck is smogon who cares

Did no one else use Gyarados to deal with smogon swords? He can out-mindgame with SD and Mega. Expect the Shield? Dance on em and make them panic. Expect the Sacred Sword? Cool, don't Mega yet, keep dancing or just flat out kill in retaliation. Intimidate always helps further scaring out the sword too.

>>30362333
>Aegis has been disgustingly predictable this gen
*players I play against have been predictable this gen.

>>30361813
Probably a week, that seems to be when they quickban the really cancerous threats. Phero will only get worse now with Slash gone.

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Okay, what's your expected banlist for this gen? Think long term.

>>30362656
>He can out-mindgame

What the fuck does this even mean

There is no mindgame, it's just impossible to predict what your opponent is going to do.

>>30362246
He'll be OU as long as he's a viable Tapu counter. Wouldn't be the first time something came up to OU in order to counter some specific top threats.

>>30362743
Pheromosa
Greninja
M-Sableye
Swagger
Maybe Kartana
Toxapex will be suspected, but ultimately stay in.

>>30362878
>Toxapex will be suspected, but ultimately stay in
God I fucking hope not, the thing is an obnoxious piece of shit.

At least Ferrothorn died to anything running HP Fire, but Toxapex only has 2x weaknesses and it can recover health easily.

Pheromosa is also not as big of an issue as people keep saying. Many ghost types utterly shit on it, it has no priority of its own, etc. It can wreck some teams, but it also has plenty of things that shut it down with no effort.

>>30362743
Everything gone right now, Phero, Gene, Lando-I, Hoopa-U.

Greninja might actually make it out of this alive, but it's really a toss up, maybe Tap Lel if Pheromosa stays for too long but probably not. M-Sable is back to stay. I want to say M-Maw, but I literally haven't seen 1 yet, so I guess no one care. Celesteela is annoying as fuck but no one cares.

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Well that lasted all of 4 seconds. I am astounded smogon didnt unban deoxys-s this gen like they did with the last 3

>>30362878
You forgot Xurkitree for fucking with stall and even being able to do so while running Shed Shell to deal with the inevitable Dugtrio stall.

>>30362971
M-Mawile isn't legal.

>>30362978
I also forgot Dugtrio/Arena Trap at least getting a test.

>>30361986
>what is Flying types
>what is priority
scrub ass nigga

>>30362990
thought someone said it was, my b

>>30363011
Priority is so gen 6. Same with flying-types. Nobody uses those anymore.

>>30362971
Maw was deemed to be tested but her stone is unavailable.
>>30362946
Nigga just put taunt in a mon or abuse the two wall breakers that dropped from Ubers.
Shit ain't hard.

>>30362743

Pheromosa
Genesect
Hoopa-Unbound
Lando-I
Swagger

Mostly it's case of nothing really changing for those banned things. Not sure what has changed for Mega Mawile, if anything.

>>30362743
>quickbanned in the next couple weeks
Bug waifu
Genesect
>suspected and probably banned
Greninja
Manaphy
Landorus
Tapu Lele
Tapu Koko
>probably suspected at some point, who knows what'll happen
Dugtrio/Arena Trap
Z-Hyper Beam
Mega Sab
Swagger

>>30363129
Some people are already calling for a full Z move ban in policy review.

I'm so bored of OU, it pains me that I'm going to have to wait months for the other tiers to roll out (thankfully I'm not much of a PU player, those guys have to wait a year).

>>30363154
I don't see that happening. The Z-moves range from useless to helpful gimmick. I can't think of anything outright broken, maybe Kyurem-B finally getting an ice move.

>>30363189
it's not gonna happen

you have to give up an item slot for it, and it's one-use and can't be used on more than one team member

anyone calling for Z-move bans is an idiot

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>>30363154
>ban all Z-Moves
>when Megas are allowed to exist

>>30363154
They're only calling for that if you're completely illiterate.

Theres a thread that's discussing what should be done if it comes up that a Pokenon with a generic Z-move is broken (mainly because exactly that came up in Little Cup). Nobody in that thread responded with "ban every z move in the game" as a response.

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>>30363154
>>30363189
The thing with z moves is that they are way 2 unpredictable as the they grant, either, multiple ways to set up or 1 turn wall breaking potential and then sweeping.
Z Sandstorm, SD and Veil Chomp can sweep while relying on RNG
Bloom Doom Heatran and Magearna can get easy 1HKO's with their respective Z moves.

>>30363230
>>30363189
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/handling-broken-sets-with-z-moves.3588070/

If you guys want to see it.

Apparently Porygon is pretty brokes in LC with Z-conversion so they don't want to do a complex ban on cases like that.

>>30363273
All they have to do is ban Conversion. Not like it has any legitimate usage outside of a Z-move. Same with whatever move triggers Eevee's Z-move.

I avoided using spooky sword because I knew Smogon would be retarded and ban it in a week again. I bet they will end up banning Pheromosa even though half the fucking tier deals with it with either bulk or priority. Gyarados, Sableye, Pelipper, Toxipex, Froslass, and Scizor give zero fucks about Pheromosa just to name a few.

>>30363273
>so they don't want to do a complex ban
What else is new?

These fucking massive retards have been campaigning against "complex bans" for years, and it's resulted in things like nobody being able to use Blaziken period, even when it doesn't have speed boost on it.

All they have to do is disallow Z-conversion on Porygon in LC. Wow, that was really fucking hard.

>>30363154
I can see it. There's so much insane bullshit with Z-moves.

It'd feel weird though, like banning all megastones because a few were broke.

>>30363189
>The Z-moves range from useless to helpful gimmick
You gotta expand your mind son. Z-move sets win me games.

>>30362946
The problem is toxapex can't really do anything. The only pressure it can add is through toxic or toxic spikes.

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>People still play OU

>>30361368
Grenigger is next

>>30363440
I play OU and doubles. Both are fun.

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>>30363440
>tfw only play NU
>Tfw have to wait forver for it to come out

>>30363440
>playing the mega kangashkhan x6 meta because it's official

>>30363440
>he cares what other people play

What happened to Mega Lucario and Kanga? Are they still in OU?

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>>30363530
Nice try, but I play UU like a real man

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>>30363345
Scizor can get 1HKO by HJK after rocks
Gyara can get 2HKO after rocks
A pheromosa will never HJK with a ghost and sableye can never come in on a U-Turn b4
mega evolving.
The only one who you listed that deal with her somewhat reliably is pelipper and you can't expect every team to have something that centralizes team building as much a rain.
>>30363440
I love 6v6 singles!

>>30363585
>I love 6v6 singles!
Nice stockholm syndrome

>>30363440
>they dont play OMs

KEK
E
K

>>30363551

Still banned, same as Sally and Gengar.

>>30362063
Mimikyu's no uber but you have to be fucking stupid if you think it's a bad mon.

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>>30363575
>Gen 7 UU

>>30363345

None of those Pokemon can do anything to Pheromosa either before she U-turns out.

Anything Pheromosa can't OHKO, she just U-turns out to safety.

>>30363613
Stockholm syndrome would be liking 3v3 Battlespot or VGC simply because someone forces them as the official metas.

>>30363551
Those two, Salamence and Gengar are likely never going to OU again.

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>>30363613
>3v3 singles.
TOP KEK

>>30363691
>he plays doubles ou

>>30362218
How did Kyurem get unbanned to OU again? Also regular Fug is just a stronger Salamence why doesnt he drop?

>>30363660
If your option is to u-turn then it's already doing what I intended it to do. If you want to keep switching in to take stealth rock damage go right ahead.

>>30363726
I played it for like a week and got incredibly high on the ladder and then stopped.
It's fun I'll prolly get more into VGC by next year if it doesn't end up being 2 tapus+a weather setter+ 3 other mons, the meta.

>not even a proper suspect process since it was the most controversial ban last gen, the council just decided to quickban it and speak for everyone
What a joke. It wasn't bad for the meta back then, and it certainly wasn't bad for the meta now. It has a fuckton of soft counters (because apparently Head Smash is an argument), and splashability is a non-factor if you have 5 teammates to babysit your wallbreaker/fairy of choice.

No, the real reason they banned it so fast is because all the Tapus are part fairy and they want to play with their new toys, while forcing everyone to work with more inoffensive steels like Jirachi or fat fucks like Mega Venusaur. This makes playing OU so less fun.

>>30363736

Kyurem-B was so shit they took pity on it and discovered it was only merely okay in OU.

>>30363736
There are exceptions in both directions. We know Kyurem Neutral and Black arent very good so they get a free pass back to OU, while things like Deo-A which isnt a big box legend will never get a chance because its guaranteed busted.

>>30363736
>KyuB
It doesn't have any good physical ice moves.
>Also regular Fug is just a stronger Salamence
Stronger as in better in every way sans ability and 5 points of speed?

It gets swords dance+extreme speed you know.

>>30363457

Greninja actually has reliable counters now

Namely Toxapex and Mantine

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>>30363613
>stockholm syndrome
Breeding is a hassle and since everything centers in 6v6 singles, doubles and 3v3 felt unnatural, without mentioning how match-up based the later can be.
Still love stadium tho
Showdown catered directly to me!
>>30363762
>My "counter" just lost 33%~45% plus possible rocks
>Phero might have taken rocks too so I'm good
Nice

>>30362743
Pheromosa definitely
Why is Genesect not banned again yet fuck Genesect

>>30363851
Salamence drop to UU at one point, I can't imagine a 95 speed Fug having any chance to set up on OU which is a faster meta game than Uber where Fug can't set up in either.

Are dragons dead in OU?

>>30363613
The main game itself is played in 6vs6 singles. That doubles and 3vs3 bullshit is Gamefreak forcing game modes on you because they want shorter game times.

>>30363906
>implying Garchomp will ever be dead

>>30362743
>>30363893
oh and maybe Topu Lel but i'm not sure

If people say smogon is shit, what do you suggest for "competitive" pokemon battling? VGC, where it's significantly more stagnant than OU is?

>>30363898
>can't set up with 105/90/90 bulk
Anon it's too strong for OU I don't even know why you'd think it would be.

>>30363963
Little cup

>>30363963
People that shit on smogon usually don't play competitive at all.

>>30362353
enjoy your official meta with 7 viable mons

>>30363878
How much does Protean Extrasensory do to Toxapex?

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>>30363963
But basically the entire meta in VGC just got turned on its head. Neither the XY or ORAS format were the same so I don't know how you're calling it stagnant.

>>30363968
Maybe, my point was that they keep testing Deoxys, might as well try how Fug works with how fairies and ice type one shots it.

>>30364019

It's only turned because a new generation is out, even smogon metas are turned too. Once it settles it will be the same shit all over again.

I hate smogon and its community so much but it's the only way to not run into kids running 6 legendaries with 4 damaging moves.

>>30364009
Solid 2HKO

>>30363774
2 tapus is quite rare so that won't happen.

>>30364044
How would VGC possibly turn into the same thing that it was during XY or ORAS? None of the meta-defining Pokemon from those two formats are legal except Garchomp.

>>30363878
Now the problem with Greninja wasn't it having no counters. Balance could run Porygon2 and stall could run Chansey to deal with it just fine. The problem is offense got fucked by it and it was pretty much forced to run it anyways since it was so good.

>>30364009
236 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 164-195 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>"Counter"
It can run Gunk for Fini and if Peli and Mantine get popular it will start using HP electric.
All of the arguments against it still stand.

>>30361986
>most blatantly broken thing since mega fug
So since the one game ago?

>>30364044
But it wasn't even stagnant during 2015.
It just happened that the most anti-meta team was somehow the most boring and obvious team possible, so worlds got fucked up.

>>30364009
2HKO if Greninja has a spatk boosting nature, full evs in spatk, and the toxapex has full HP and spdef evs.

>>30363927
I mean yeah not Garchomp (and probably not Mega Charizard X), but it seems like the dragon type just got butchered so hard this gen that it's hard to find reasons to use them again.

Like it feels so risky to use dragons when they're just inviting the Tapus to come in for free and murder you dead.

>>30363851
>sans ability
arguable

>>30361813
When is Tapu Koko Leaving?

>>30364063
For now in these early stages of the meta at least. My professional prediction as someone who has played less than 10 VGC matches is people will start running two Tapus. One for setting up their own win conditions and one to fuck with the opponent's win condition in case both teams rely on the same terrain to win games.
But like I said my opinion is worth jack shit.

>>30364137
Moxie and Intimidate are great abilities. Weather Lock pretty much means you don't get revenged by weather sweepers, which is a pretty niche application.

I guess you dick Y-zard hard though.

Somewhere, there is a person who actually takes what a group of people who unironically refer to themselves as "The OU Council" say seriously.

>>30364156
Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko are the new genies

>>30364216
As long as I don't have to look at those ugly abominations anymore

>>30364175
Double the genies, double the primals, double the Tapus... Is there a fraction of fun left?

>>30364074
Also Suicune if it's not using Grass Knot, and CM Manaphy. Limited options, nonetheless.

>>30364208
you can't talk to the council like that

>>30363613
>build an entire franchise around 6v6 singles
>make doubles the offical meta

explain this

At least Bamboofu is staying.

>>30364130
Overall they're not as strong as before, the presence of Fairy types makes them pretty lackluster as a whole.

>>30364025
>>30363736
Rayquaza is A tier in ubers, why the fuck would it drop before garbage uber mons like Reshiram or Palkia

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>>30364374
>tfw everyone expect the meme leech seed set
>suprise them with automize and proceed to sweep
Celesteela makes my dick hard in more ways than one.

>>30364175

I'm going to admit that I already run two Tapus for this exact reasoning.

>>30364365
Doubles is _________fun_________

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>>30364374
I'm glad my favorite poke design-wise this gen is good.
Being an Ice fag is suffering.

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>tfw addicted to 6v6 uber singles
>tfw you win almost every time because of geomancy xerneas sweeps and because of kids coming on thinking that they can win with OU mons against legends

>>30362246
>Just because he counters multiple OU pokémon doesn't mean he will be OU

excuse me?

>>30364826
If what he counters are all banned, he'll lose his niche and won't be as useful. What's so hard to understand about that?

Am I the only one that doesn't mind smogon banning stuff even if I don't fully think it should be since almost anything is better than virtually everything allowed no rules? Like, theres even little tiers so I can play with my cute mons that would otherwise never ever be able to be used without being a guaranteed loss.

Is it possible to like smogon AND also be a karenfag? Sorry for offtopic.

>>30364904
The tier system makes sure every Pokemon is usable in a (somewhat, given how horribly balanced this game is) fair battle.

There is nothing wrong with Smogon outside of their arbitrary bans like the one in OP.

>>30364881
Tapus won't be banned. They will be the new genies.

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>>30364904
Smogon is actually the best place to be a Karenfag. It's where you can go to fight against Pokemon on similar power levels, even if they suck, like my favorite.

>Aegislash is too centralizing so we're banning it

>you literally can't have a team in Gen6 without a Tapu but this is absolutely fine

>>30365132
Tapus did not exist in gen 6

The best format is random battles. That is all.

>>30365181
Gen7 my mistake.

>>30365208
That's okay. I forget Gen 2 exists sometimes too.

>>30365109
>>30365017
Okay, I was starting to think I was crazy for liking the tier system and whatnot. I ended up using some OU when I last played in XY just so I didn't lose all the time since I never got to really play the tiers, but I honestly still don't mind the bans as long as they keep things fun. Never had to play against an Aegislash, 80% of my battles were against mega-Venosaur and washing machine Rotom. Thanks for the replies!

>>30365017
It's not arbitrary. Aegislash is cancer.

>>30361368
That much was obvious, they didn't add a single piece of shit to try making the sword stop being god.

>giving a flying fuck about "competitive" autismon

>>30365264
t. Tapufag

>>30365296
Brohoof my friend, I only play Pokemon for the incredible story and challenging in-game battles.

>>30364904
Smogon does allow every Pokémon that can shine to shine in their tiers.

Except for shit that is stuck in BL or Ubers for being broken in the context of their usage.

Its quite Karenfaggy when you think about it.

>>30365296
This. Pokemon is all about the deep, challenging, thought provoking single player.

>>30365300
Tapu Lele is broken and awful and will probably get the boot some time.

But yeah, fuck Aegislash. It's the exact same shit as Gen 6 Aegislash.

>>30363878
Alolan Muk is the biggest one. Frog literally can't even 3HKO him if he's AV, and only barely squeaks in the 3HKO with Hydro miss if it's Black Sludge.

>>30365296

What the fuck else are you playing for?

There are plenty of single-player focused RPGs out there. Pokemon is not one of them, the main focus of Pokemon has always been the multiplayer.

>>30364904
Smogon is what you get when a Karenfag really sits to think. It's quite stupid how out of 700+ mons only about 20 are used in the intended Gamefreak meta, and Smogon gives a chance to the little guys to shine, even the fucking NFE mons have a tier to play and enjoy.

I know it's not perfect (Stealth Rock ruining almost the entirety of the mons weak 4x to Rock and still being valid is stupid for me) but they make a quite nice effort in giving everyone a chance to have fun. Unless your fave Mon is fucking Unown, your pokebro has an use.

>>30365017
>arbitrary bans
They explained it all in that wall of text linked in the OP.

why are people still taking Smogon seriously at all?

Its not like any of the actually good players of pokemon even wander anywhere near there.

>>30365798
Some people enjoy using Showdown, for whatever reason. I don't understand them either.

>>30365729
Stealth rock is there to fuck stall, it's the biggest tool to give the middle finger to bulky mons.

Also Zard Y/X And Volcarona only need to come once if you actually team build a breaking core around them without having to worry about rocks, setting rocks kills momentum if you don't abuse that it is your fault, also remember that offensive rapid spiners and u turn Defoggers pair ridiculously well with trappers into wincons so they do have a big role in how the game plays.

Rocks are healthy for a metagame that wants to be offensive.

>>30363440
That doujin was 10/10

>>30365888
Not him, but while I agree there should be a tax on switching, Stealth Rock plays type favoritism and fucks over certain Pokemon more than others.

And since you can expect any battler with more than three brain cells to pack it, it's overcentralizing.

>>30361368
In Ubers the pokemon have good enough stats to make Smogon Sword less of an annoyance.

Im waiting for when meanie genies and top lel/kek/bull/fin can combine forces and create a new cancerzord

>>30364904
Smogon exists for karenfags. So long as your bro isn't uber or certain BL/BL2 pokemon, it provides a place for you to use them (though some stuff just doesn't have a place, because they're just that bad.)

There's also silly bullshit like balanced hackmons which is a lot of fun, and if you like old gens those are still supported. Say what you will about how OU is handled but as a whole smogon/showdown is way better for battling.

>>30364904
Smogon is THE place to be a Karenfag. Gamefreak's bullshit game modes makes sure shitmons will never ever be used.

>Somebody wants to fight on cartridge
>Ask if they want to follow standard banlists
>no
>Ask if they want to follow clauses
>no
>Put his entire team to sleep
stupid bastard

>>30365296
Why does the thought of "competition" trigger you so much? Are you that afraid of interacting with other people?

>>30365970
Spikes would be perfect if flying types or levitate users weren't immune to it, but since they are the tiptoeing tectonics should stay.

>>30365869
>some people like not playing bike simulator
It's a true wonder

>>30365888
No sneaky pebbles is made to deter switching in otherwords completely fuck your opponent over because they risk getting oneshot if they switch in to take an attack.

>>30366182

>Komala

>>30365888
Speaking of Volcarona, I feel like the nerf to Talonflame might give it some new life.

>>30366232
Exactly, the ability to fuck stall switches is glorious, it turns many 3hkos into 2hkos and that's enough to break stall switching game.

If you don't know shit about hazard control and how to abuse momentum when using spinners/defoggers, well I guess you would bitch about SR. Ignorant people tend to bitch about things they don't understand.

>>30363271
How is that a bad thing. You're playing Pokémon not with some calculator that gives you the exact result every time you input the same numbers

>Sub Toxic Aegislash is a set that can sweep a team

This thing is fucking bullshit.

>>30366210
As far as I can tell, stealth rock was designed to hit the fliers/levitators in a way spikes couldn't, but it went too overboard with the rock weakness thing, and then you get pokemon losing HALF THEIR FUCKING HEALTH for something as simple as switching in. And then you have things like Volcarona who were already affected by spikes, but get dicked too, not to mention some other grounded fires/bugs/ices/etc.

It's fucking atrocious design.

>>30364434
Is heavy slam still worth it on automize or do you go full spa or something?

>>30366238
Pretty sure talonflame was really the big thing that made it drop

>>30366234
>480 bst

>>30366210
If Gamefreak were to understand how fucking stupid sneaky pebbles are and just made it so it took 12.5% of every fucking mon and 25% of flying mons everything would be better, the 50% weakness only makes the rock/flying/ice/fire typing into a hidrance

Spikes would be the alternative that can make 18.75% damage with three uses but it's a lot more risky to use

>>30366329
>Sweep that take 30 turns
>Stopped by Steel/Poison/Magic Guard || Bounce
I guess?

>>30365970
Not centralizing at all, I still run victini without defoggers and flying types without it provided I have a good offensive backbone, heck weavile is boss as a trapper even with sneaky Peebles around.

There is no type favoritism even for grounded fire types as they can function well despite being hit hard by all hazard types.

>>30366360
Yes. She's so heavy it makes no difference.

>>30366238
Until you fight Toxapex.

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>>30366360
Celesteela is extremely thick, so you'll still hit pretty much everything but Primal Ground for about max damage.

>>30366363
This.

People make it sound like if Articuno would rise from NU to Uber if SR disappeared. Except no. Articuno would still be a NU shitmon because Articuno is SHIT even without SR being there.

Look at Talonflame. He was x4 wear to SR and he was OU without any difficulties. Why? Because he actually was GOOD. If your bromon is good he'll be good SR or not, just like your bromon will still be a PU shitmon even without SR existing because SR was the last of the issues with your PU bro shitmon.

>>30366438
Most magic guarders/Bouncers are can't take Shadow ball and most poison/steel are defensive and can't break Aegis' sub or also fear Shadow Ball.

>>30366342
Nope, it's not atrocious. You are seeing it only from a type perspective and not from a concept perspective. Rock is actually one of the best offensive types in the game being only resisted by 3 types this is why it was chosen for the type hazard.

It gives a good opportunity cost concept to singles and puts good use to offense archetypes.

>>30365869
>for whatever reason
maybe to play Pokemon instead of Tauros Riding Simulator 2017

>>30366559

He also had priority roost, superior defensive typing and bulk, and retarded speed/priority.

That's not even remotely a fair comparison.

>>30366311
I don't bitch about Stealth Rock for its existence, I fucking know that there needs to be some form of entry hazards in a game that's based around switching as one of the main mechanics

what I don't stand is how shitmons and pokemon that would be actually somewhat good at their roles get fucked over by Stealth Rock because of how badly designed the "makes damage based on weakness" bullshit is.

You have mons with Defog that can't Defog for shit because they take 50% from daring to enter into the field with rocks. Butterfree and his Bug/Flying ilk are a bunch of shit mons that are made entirely worse just because of Stealth Rock taking 50% away from their health and force you to run a spinner so that you can attempt to fullfill their roles. Articuno can't make proper use of its higher defensive stats because of Stealth Rock fucking up any attempt to being a bulky mon he could have. As I said before, turning Stealth Rock into a 12.5% for everyone and 25% for mons with weakness would go a long way into allowing the poor shitmons to catch a break while still working as an entry hazard successfully.

>>30365798
Such as Verlisify right?

>>30366666
woah
now gf has to implement it
the numbers have spoken

>>30366602
Then list what shit mons like Articuno, Vivillon and basic zard bring to the table?

Freaking nothing, shit like Volcarona and Talonflame the same obnoxious rock weakness yet they held up because of their positive traits, volcarona was still that bulky MOTHERFUCKING wincon and Talonflame was a tank against fairies with ground immunity and wisp to set up on base 130 unstabbed stone edges.

These Pokemon didn't gave a fuck about SR, so why do you think the typing alone matters?

>>30366602
Wow it's almost like he was good or something, you know, the things I just mentioned in my post.

Want more examples of things that are good despite weakness to SR? Charizards, Gyarados, Zapdos, Dragonite, Salamence, Pinsir, Tornadus, Staraptor, Thundurus, Volcarona,

>>30366238
I've been trying to use Volcarona on a team and it gets checked by so many things that I feel it wouldn't work without Dugtrio support, and even then many of its checks can't be trapped that way. Fire/Bug is just really underwhelming coverage and there's so many waters that are neutral to Giga Drain.

However, like many special attackers you can patch its coverage up by using Z-Hyper Beam, though no Lum/Passho Berry is kind of annoying. This way you can deal significant damage to basically all of your checks sans T-tar and Heatran, who are both capably trapped by Dugtrio, however it's a one-time move essentially and don't be surprised if your opponent has several Volc checks (without even trying to, mind you.)

>>30366769
the difference is quite big
Volcarona and Talonflame were good DESPITE Stealth Rock but there's no denying they would be a lot better if Stealth Rock were to be nerfed

Meanwhile shitmons like the Bug/Flying regional mons, Articuno and multiple fire mons are made WORSE thanks to Stealth Rock, and a nerf to Stealth Rock would make them a lot better, not make them jump a tier or become uber that's for sure, but it would increase their usefulness a lot.

>>30365798
Ray Rizzo is pretty good.

>>30361368
not banned in vgc or online play which is the only thing that matters

>>30366666
Articuno and defensive... OK you are a confirmed retard.

Listen dude, you are trying to defend shit mons that are already shitmons no matter how you sugar coat it, refer to >>30366769 and see that actually good mons don't sweat much over rocks, they are good regardless of it.

You are bitching because your shitmons are shitmons and you are too fucking lazy to support them even in their tiers.

Fuck off dude, you lost all credibility.

>>30366827
>but it would increase their usefulness a lot
And guess what? The things that are already good even with their SR weakness will become EVEN BETTER. Imagine Dragonite being able to switch without ever fearing for rocks to break his Multiscale. Why should I use a bug/flying shitmon when I can use this now?

Why do you shitters think that universal "buffs" like these will only help shitmons but won't apply to the things that are already good too?

>>30366861
It is banned in both actually.

>>30366865
You don't get it do you? I'm not talking about an OU perspective and yes, Articuno stats are quite defensive unless you think that a 90/100/125 bulk compared to 85/95/85 offensive stats
>>30366895
>Imagine Dragonite being able to switch in without ever fearing for Rocks to break his Multiscale

now I know you're making a stupid jump because nobody ever implied that Stealth Rock shouldn't exist or that it should be reduced to nothing, holy shit, try to read other people posts, Dragonite would still take 25% of Stealth Rock with the nerf I'm talking about

I'm going to sit down this shit because it's quite obvious you're not reading crap

>>30366968
Kek

>>30366827
You are making me giggle, Victini is still great, Zapdos is still great, Mandibuzz, Gyarados, Torn T, Thundurus I, Zard X, Mega Beedril and a plethora of flying, fire and even the sole good pure ice in Weavile are still fucking good regardless of a SR weakness.

Your shit mons are still shitmons and won't get any usage when these mons pull everything they could attempt to do better.

Stop trying to gang on SR because of your idealistic view on shitmons.

>>30363698
I understand Gengar but why the others?

>>30366471
Throw Psychic on Volcarona and pair it with Tapu Lele for added fun.

>>30367078
Because they will be Ubers you dummy.

>>30367045
still not reading shit, so lovely
Maybe you should try to actually read other people arguments instead of making jumps based into what you think other people are thinking, ok?

But I guess that threatening your precious rocks with a little nerf just shut down your cognitive skills and you went full retard mode

>>30367117
Two problems with that.
1) Volc is really hard pressed with its move slots
2) A set up spamming sweeper doesn't utilize temporary terrains and stuff like that much.

>>30366895
Not the other guy, but Multiscale gets broken with any damage, so any percentage would do it. Unless I'm misreading this post and you're implying that a nerf would lead to far less usage of SR overall

>>30366993
Bitch please, do you think Articuno bulk matters when you carry ice as your typing? All the mighty glaciers with ice on it ended up as fucking shitmons.

Weak to volt switch, fire, rock, bullet punch. And worst of all? It only resists fucking Grass and Bug while being neutral to all the types in the rainbow.

Any wallbreaker, literally any wallbreaker can press their stabs and force Articuno out.

This piece of shit isn't a tank, it has 0 utility and stealth rock is the least of its problems.

Don't expect this piece of garbage to be useful just because of a nerf to SR happened.

>>30367189
>Sack something
>Nite can enter 100% guaranteed because no SR
>???
>Profit

Better now?

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>>30361986
>most blatantly broken thing since mega fug

Digimon roach dies to literally anything with priority or anyone who can survive an attack, it's gonna get destroyed in Ubers.

>>30367156
You are obsessed with types and shitmons. There is nothing to read, your arguments are as deep as a puddle.

Eanto Talk about hazards being oppressive? Don't bitch about typing or side with Articuno of all things called shit, talk about momentum and role compression for hazard control mons, now that's actually worth a discussion.

>>30367222
But what does this have to do with the percentage change the post you were quoting was talking about?

>>30367078
Mega Salamence was an S-rank uber last gen. Its stats, ability, pre-mega ability, everything about it is completely over the top. It basically has no flaws or mechanical weaknesses whatsoever. Plus, it benefits greatly from the mega speed change thing, e.g. it can safely mega evolve in front of Lati@s.

Mega Kangaskhan still has the Seismic Toss set, which is frankly one of its best sets anyway; it's really bulky, 2HKOs nearly everything with no boost and even while burned, and it gets wish, too. The nerf to sucker punch, and the direct nerf to its ability, certainly mean it's not as retardedly unstoppable as before, but the Seismic Toss set is probably way too much.

Mega Lucario benefits from the speed mechanic change as well, and basically nothing changed about it. It still has very few checks and is really just way too good.

>>30367254

>Priority

Le Tapu Lele face

>survive an attack

It U-turns out to safety against anything that can survive an attack

A more apt comparison for Pheromosa would be Deoxys-N or Deoxys-A

>>30367078
Mega Evolutions get their speed buffs the turn they Mega Evolve. Everyone mentions Beedrill and Diancie but Mence goes to 120, Lucario goes to 112 in combination with their fantastic typing. Parental Bond still activates for secondary effects so Body Slam still has a 51% paralyze and Seismic toss 2HKOs everything with less than 94 base HP.

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>>30367356
>Le Tapu Lele face
Here you go!

>>30367356
Are Top Lele and High Speed Roach the OTP of competitive Pokemon right now?

>>30363011
>priority
Top Lele

>>30367359
Dude I could have sworn it was base 80,but base >94 actually fucks with a lot of what could have checked it.

>>30362163
They unbanned it because it was coinflips: the pokemon and was more overcentralizing than Gen IV Garchomp

>>30367751
*banned, fuck

>>30362946
Toxapex has zero offensive presence unless you're running some Merciless/Venoshock meme set and even then not really, also its low HP means that it can't always take as many hits as you might think.

>>30363345
>priority
>when Tapu Lele exists

face it, everything is going to get banned until it's nothing but tapus, genies, and stall.

>>30367347
>Mega Lucario benefits from the speed mechanic change as well, and basically nothing changed about it. It still has very few checks and is really just way too good.

What is so "good" about Mega Lucario though.
Hes got alright speed, but nothing blazing fast.

Hits decently hard, but can be easily walled

Shit coverage

Shit defenses.

>>30362246
It's already confirmed he's UU DESU fampai

>>30363800
Aegislash was quickbanned because fighting against it is literal no-skill coinflips that punish you way too severely for guessing wrong and it's in every team. It's why it got banned relatively quickly back in XY and why it's getting banned now.

>there are people who actually defend Aegislash

>>30366968
lmfao

>>30367957
>le stall meme
it's not Smogon fault that Gamefreak shitty design is biased towards stall in singles, if Gamefreak didn't make crap like MegaLuke, MegaSalamence or MegaMawile that shit on offensive mons nobody would be forced to run stall

when the metagame is full of shit that can easily OHKO any of your offensive mons with a wrong switch-in and/or a bit of prediction it's just a matter of time until everybody gets mad at it and starts to run stallshit

>>30366360
Celesteela is so heavy that its Heavy Slam still hits for full power even after an Autotomize except maybe Primal Groudon or Cosmoem or something

Huh, weird. I can't disagree with any of the points made but I personally had no problem with smogonsword whenever that happened.

>>30368006
>implying a 145 base attack mon with adaptability and 112 base speed needs good defenses
>implying the majority of /vp/ doesn't understand jack shit about competitive

>>30368138
>all those things get banned in Smogon ruleset
>still nothing but fucking stall

>>30363645
>>30363698
No retest for Mega Mom?

>>30368220
so now Klefki + Prankster and Swagger isn't stall?
isn't Sleep a tool of stall too?
isn't Double Team + Minimize a stall tool?
aren't Giratina, Lugia and Mega-Sableye banned because they were stall tools too?

holy shit, some people just should shut the fuck up before talking shit

>>30368260
What part of it 2hko ING everything with less than 380 hp after lefties. Doesn't help.

Seismic toss Khangaskan is ridiculous and I can't believe people didn't use it in early XY.

>>30368006
>decently hard
Understatement of the century, Adaptability combined with Mega Luke's already great offensive stats means that it hits like a freight train from either side of the spectrum, along with getting both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot.

Fucker also gets Extremespeed

>>30368006
>Mon with Adaptability, access to Extreme Speed, and has one of the most versatile movesets where it is an actual diceroll attempting to figure out what set it's running
>HURR WHAT'S SO GOOD ABOUT IT?????


Why can't you fucks ever just play the game?

>>30367646
I hope VGCfags love them because they're all they'll ever see.

If you actually read the thread

>Hello all, the OU tiering council has decided to ban Aegislash from the Pokebank OU metagame. After much discussion amongst the OU Council and the community, including discussion from the On The Radar thread, the Council has decided the appropriate action was to quickban Aegislash.

>Aegislash is not like any other Pokemon; it doesn't outright sweep teams and is not utterly undefeatable, but rather its combination of stats, movepool, ability, and typing making it a Pokemon that has no place in OU. Its offensive and defensive capabilities are a major asset to any kind of team, and as such Aegislash has found itself onto the large majority of teams, cementing itself as a centralizing force in the metagame.

It wasn't banned for being "broken", it was banned for how easy it is to slap onto any kind of team

>>30368571
ban silvally next

>>30368571
if that is their reasoning and we don't see a ban of at the very least Tapu Lele, they're fucking hypocrites.

Also with this logic Smeargle can be on every team and should be banned for the same reason.

>>30368571
Also due to every match with it being dumb 50/50s

The only people who actually defend Aegislash are contrarians

>>30368571
Fucking Lando-T can be slapped on any team, why do they always bullshit us with these fucking bans?

so basically, banned for being boring?

>>30368620
>>30368615
Smeargle can't fit the role of physical/special/attacker/sub toxic stall so think your arguments before saying dumb shit

>>30368006
He's a Parental Bond Terrakion with Keldeo strapped on its back for SpAtk, Starmie speed, and it's a steel type that boosts and has plenty of priority.

>>30368620
I'd be very surprised if Tapu Lele isn't suspected this gen, but it also doesn't have Smogonsword's versatility.

Smeargle doesn't have Aegislash's insane stats and dies to a stiff breeze.

>>30368620
sord only got banned this quickly because its situation is exactly the same as it was last gen. Tapu tests will happen eventually.

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>>30368006
>Shit coverage

>>30368654
so, what you're saying is that Tapu Lele and Smeargle don't outright sweep teams and aren't utterly undefeatable?

>>30368653
>this meme was spammed so much with the same image as company so it's one of the first results in google images

https://archive.nyafuu.org/vp/search/image/Fik1LvbAtJjL0pAUfPFPFA/

>>30368620
Tapu Lele doesn't fit on literally every single type of team and doesn't have 720 BST, and doesn't cause 50/50s.

Smeargle is just completely dogshit on every single possible team type in general so I don't even know what that comparison was.

Even if you want to somehow argue Lele is good on every possible team type and that it is somehow broken, Smogon is only banning 1 thing at a time regardless. They're not banning like 10 things in huge waves because doing so is fucking retarded.

>>30368647
Banned for being overcentralizing and for lacking a skillful counter, along with it's extremely high stats. Nigger's a virtual base 720

>>30368692
they also don't force constant 50/50s

>>30368692
>Tapu Lele doesn't outright sweep teams
get rid of every mon that resists/is immune to Psychic on the opponent team, wait until you can safely switch a Scarfed Tapu Lele

Press Psyshock/Psychic and autowin

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>Gamefreak will never introduce 6v6 battlespot singles
I just want to be free from this autism

>>30368381
>aren't Giratina, Lugia and Mega-Sableye banned because they were stall tools too?
Is this some sort of abstract bait that I don't understand?

>>30363736
Remember that one April Fools where Giratina-O dropped to OU? I still want that fucker back.

>>30368740
>offensive pokemon can sweep after you remove their checks and counters
Somebody get Verlisify!

>>30368765
honestly at this point I just want the Stadium style "see both teams and their hold items, each player picks 3" gameplay again. I feel like that was the best format.

>>30368064
Except that no, it wasn't and it isn't. The vast majority of the alleged coinflips (this isn't an argument and I have no idea how it gained so much traction) come from Knock Off turns. All sets were reasonably checkable with appropriate common defensive pokémon. And the ban process was very divisive, barely crossing the 60% threshold due to flipped votes. Not to mention that most of the rationale for the ban came from people believing they were somehow entitled to archetypes using Medicham/Gardevoir being ran with less pressure, and with stupid arguments like "Head Smash for Mandibuzz" being thrown around. I played the X/Y meta when Aegi was around, and I was far more concerned about plenty of other stuff than a strong catch-all Ghost. The fact that this is basically a legacy ban doesn't make it any less stupid, nor the arguments any stronger.

>>30368812
And I just want no team preview and no ability to change lead back. Fucking Zoroark, you aren't even good.

>>30368643
Lando T is a decent pivot, nothing gamebreaking.

>>30368849
>They didn't give Zoroark a hidden ability like Prankster or some shit

>>30368831
>Kings Shield into Shield Form
>not forcing constant 50/50s
>720 BST
>being more overcentralizing than Garchomp ever was

>>30368770
>abstract bait
you can just google the fucking analysis, fucktard, Lugia is stall incarnated and Giratina is his half-retarded brother that still manages to be as annoying

Mega-Sableye was a stupidly good stall tool that was a deterrent to hyper-offensive teams that wanted to put rocks or setup easily and you could just switch Sableye into them and Taunt them/Will O' Wisp them and follow up with Foul Play FTW

it was used by balanced teams but it was a huge tool for stall teams as it meant they didn't need to use a sweeper of their own because Sableye could simply switch into and use those boosts by himself

>>30368792
holy shit, are you stupid? Somebody claimed that Tapu Lele doesn't outright sweep teams but that's just fucking untrue, it doesn't even need to rely on coverage to sweep teams, just press fucking Psychic/Psyshock and autowin, that's retarded sweeping capabilities

>>30368849
>type matchup preview still works on Zoroark
JUST

>>30368938
>strong STAB on a choiced mon is enough to sweep a team after its counters are removed
Holy shit my dude

Check out this epic Articuno sweep I did against this this dude after I removed everything that wasn't a pure bug type

>>30368731
>Smeargle is just completely dogshit on every single possible team type in general
Focus sash spore suicide lead destiny bond boiiii

>>30368938
>Lugia and Giratina aren't allowed in OU because Smogon hates stall
At last I see the light

who the fuck cares about OU anyway? UU is the best format. It has the most variety and nothing overly dominating that they refuse to ban.

>>30369011
I keep telling you my man, ARE YOU RETARDED

212 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Choice Scarf Tapu Lele 2HKOes fucking Chansey after rocks with Psyshock

2HKOes FUCKING CHANSEY

The premiere Special wall can't do fucking shit against Tapu Lele, the bullshit mon is fucking broken

>>30369127
and once again another retarded fuck
you're fucking stupid, the memefags that spout "le smogon and its stall xd" meme are a bunch of fucking retarded idiots

Smogon isn't biased towards stall as much as Gamefreak own "game balance" is biased towards stall. I'll fucking repeat it once again, you can only try using offensive powerhouses so much until all of them get OHKOed by a retarded mon like MegaLuke or MegaSalamance and then switch to a stall game style. Blame Gamefreak for being unable to balance their own metagame and not giving a fuck about singles.

lmao fuck cancersword

>>30369246
t. 1200 elo

>>30369262
nice meme, do you have another fucking argument other than meme spouting?

BTW, here's what your shitty Articuno does against Chansey so take your shitty example and stick it up your retarded ass

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 62-74 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock

What do you guys think of complex bans? Is the slippery slope a valid concern or do some cases really deserve special treatment?

>>30368925
If you're gonna parrot some talking points, at least elaborate on them (AKA make a strong case for why it's not just relevant for Knock Off and Fire Fang from M-Mawile). The fact that you're evoking a comparison with Garchomp which was a sweeper compounded with Evasion nonsense means you're just fishing for a reply there.

>>30369246
Hahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Eviolite Chansey Even Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Use Knock Off Like NIgga Run Scizor Haha

>>30369246
U need to take a xanny my manny

>>30369127
Lugia and Giratina aren't allowed because they are Box Legends. The one exception they made regarding Box Legends is Kyurem-B who is way way way shittier than these two.
Solgaleo would arguably be not that bad in OU but they are keeping him banned solely because of its Box Legend status.

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>>30369246
>talks about special wall
>uses a move that hits physically

>>30369331
Because gen 4 Garchomp and Aegislash are both overcentralizing as fuck

>>30369349
Tapu lel

>>30369316
Dude, you realize Psyshock calculates damage based on Defense instead of Special Defense, right? Are you just pretending?

>>30369317
Complex bans should never have been discouraged. Smogon is retarded to not allow them. They only create more problems when they try to avoid making specific rules for outlying cases.

>>30369243
You sure seem to be enjoying that gen 7 UU, retard.

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>>30369246
>special wall
>psyshock
Never post here again

>>30369317
I think it's a valid concern, but I don't support complex bans because it just makes the whole teambuilding process that much more annoying. Simplicity is almost always best.

>>30369404
>>30369420
dude, you realize that Psyshock is a legit choice for Tapu Lele?
Nowhere did anybody ever imply that the example wasn't valid, specially when your entire retarded argument is "LOOOOL, ARTICUNO ALSO SWEEPS HAHAHAHAHA"

>>30369317
slippery slope is a fallacy for a fucking reason.

Their logic is basically "if we allow Torrent Greninja/Blaze Blaziken in non-Ubers, soon we'll see Twister-Only Mega Rayquaza in NU" and it's fucking retarded.

If you know full fucking well that Speed Boost Blaziken is a problem, ban Speed Boost Blaziken and don't punish people that want to use the Blaze variant. It's not fucking rocket science.

I also like how they say "no complex bans" yet have shit like not being allowed to Baton Pass speed and another stat, or back when Drizzle and Swift Swim on the same team was banned.

I can absolutely respect trying to make something balanced out of the mess that is 6v6 singles but Smogon is extremely hypocritical about it on a regular basis.

>>30369470
Of course it's a legitimate choice but the solution is just to use a physical wall instead of special

Wow so difficult

>>30369470
So just to clarify, you're saying that Tapu Lele is too strong because it's Psyshock breaks special walls, right?

Just wanted to clarify.

>>30369384
They're not allowed because >600 BST combined with a held item is too much for OU. Kyurem-B is an exception because it has a garbage movepool that doesn't work well with its stats.

>>30361813

Soon. Will most likely been Gen 7's first Suspect.

>>30369482
So it basically comes down to karenfaggotry? Where do you draw the line at allowing ubers down with exceptions?

>>30368986
are you fucking kidding me

>>30369485
so are we entirely completely ignoring that Tapu Lele has 4 spots to use, right? Why couldn't it use Psychic instead of Psyshock? If you see that there's still a Chansey/Blissey you pick Psyshock, if you don't see one you pick the stronger choice, Psychic

>>30369496
are you stupid? nobody said that Tapu Lele is strong because of that, retard, it was said multiple times that it was strong because even special sponges can't do shit against it thanks to the choice of moves it has and that it packs quite a ton of power even without a speed positive nature and a choice scarf

>>30369482
>I also like how they say "no complex bans" yet have shit like not being allowed to Baton Pass speed and another stat

Smogon has such a hatred for complex bans I'm surprised that they don't just ban Scolipede. It seems like every single update to the Baton Pass clause can be traced back to it.

>>30369699
This is me. Literally me. No other character can come close to relating to me like this. There is no way you can convince me this is not me. This character could not possibly be anymore me. It’s me, and nobody can convince me otherwise. If anyone approached me on the topic of this not possibly being me, then I immediately shut them down with overwhelming evidence that this character is me. This character is me, it is indisputable. Why anyone would try to argue that this character is not me is beyond me. If you held two pictures of me and this character side by side, you’d see no difference. I can safely look at this character every day and say “Yup, that’s me”. I can practically see this character every time I look at myself in the mirror. I go outside and people stop me to comment how similar I look and act to this character. I chuckle softly as I’m assured everyday this character is me in every way. I can smile each time I get out of bed every morning knowing that I’ve found my identity with this character and I know my place in this world. It’s really quite funny how similar this character is to me, it’s almost like we’re identical twins. When I first saw this character, I had an existential crisis. What if this character was the real me and I was the fictional being. What if this character actual became aware of my existence? Did this character have the ability to become self aware itself?

>>30369687
also, if anything the mere fact that it has Psyshock as a STAB option against special sponges should be a fucking argument in favor of Tapu Lele, not against

then again /vg/ is full of literal retards

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>>30369633
The solution is incredibly simple and the fact that Smogon won't enact it shows how fucking incompetent they are.

Step 1. Sort things into tiers
Step 2. If there are any abilities, held items, or other various bullshit that specifically make a pokemon fit into a certain tier, allow people to use it in lower tiers without those things (such as Soul Dew on Latios and Latias, Blaze Blaziken, non-mega Lucario, etc.)
3. Do not fall into the trap of saying "well, it's okay to use primal groudon in OU as long as it doesn't attack" or other stupid bullshit

Suddenly, you have more options for people at no cost to the existing playstyles.

"No complex bans" just means "we don't want to go to the effort of thinking about things".

This thread was fucking lost the moment someone unironically used "LOL ARTICUNO ALSO SWEEPS LMAO" as a fucking argument

That's as fucking stupid as saying that Mega-Luke wasn't broken because it also needed its counters to be wiped out so it could sweep

>>30369740
>We /vg/ now

>>30369633
it comes down to reasonableness. There are plenty of pokemon in ubers purely because of their ability, and usually a hidden ability at that.

Smogon has no problems banning pokemon, and they have no problems banning abilities (see: Moody) so why do they suddenly have a problem banning a pokemon with a specific ability? If Kecleon didn't get Protean would just the ability be banned then?

Basically, I find it hypocritical and a bit sad that "X is okay, X+Y is banned" is too complex for a group that call themselves a University.

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>>30369687
You mentioned several times that Lele's Psyshock could cleanly 2HKO Chansey after rocks, emphasizing that it was the 'premier special wall."

Psyshock is based off of the user's Special Attack but it hits the opponents Defense you actual retard.

>>30369246
>Choice Scarf Tapu Lele 2HKOes fucking Chansey after rocks with Psyshock
>2HKOes FUCKING CHANSEY
>The premiere Special wall can't do fucking shit against Tapu Lele, the bullshit mon is fucking broken
Are we back in Gen 5? Switch Lele with Keldeo and this post becomes a time machine.

>>30369772
That won't work and you're an idiot. Your answer is essentially "just don't allow stuff that I arbitrarily think is okay." From your rules, there's nothing saying that it would be A-Okay to run Mewtwo as long as it's a physical-only set, since special moves is what makes Mewtwo so good.

>>30369856
The point is that Lelele will murder your walls regardless of whether they're physical or special.

>>30369856
does the fact that Psyshock hits the defensive side instead of the special side change that Chansey is the premiere special wall?

Shouldn't you take the commentary about it as an example of Tapu Lele killing both special and physical walls without giving a goddamn fuck WHILE HOLDING A FUCKING CHOICE SCARF?

>>30369723

I'm surprised they haven't just banned Speed Boost. It's why Blaziken is in Ubers, it's why they BP clause has had to undergo several changes, and it's in theory simpler to institute an ability ban that only affects Ninjask and Blazikenite than allow Ninjask, Ban Blaziken wholesale, and make a complex ban that you supposedly hate with regards to Baton Pass.

>>30369898
>>30369919
>Psyshock can 2HKO a pokmeon with garbage defense WHILE HOLDING A CHOICE SCARF somebody ban this move!!

>>30369961
but what about Sharpedo?

>>30369852
>it comes down to reasonableness
That's too subjective to actually work out.

>>30369887
Except it will work, easily. You're trying to say "No, it's not okay to have Blaze Blaziken on an OU team because reasons".

Taking something's movepool and narrowing it down is, in most cases, obviously a very poor choice for introducing it into a lower tier. It also has nothing to do with the argument.

In very rare cases, such as Porygon Z-Conversion in LC, the move itself obviously needs to be banned. But Smogon will instead ban Porygon for no reason. Do you see the problem?

>>30369887
>it's a "if you allow this simple thing then you'll allow my convoluted bullshit thing" episode

>>30369961
Banning speed boost also affects their pre-evos in LC.

>>30369969
I don't know if I should laugh or cry at your retardation at this point

nothing aside from outright fucking immunity is going to save you from Tapu Lele

I'm just going to wait until some months down the line when some fuck claims "EVERYBODY COULD SEE WHY TAPU LELE WAS FUCKING BROKEN SO SMOGON SHOULDN'T HAVE WAITED THAT FUCKING LONG TO BAN IT" and laugh at it because it's fucking clear that there are people so retarded they couldn't see it.

And I didn't even use the part about "LOL NO PRIORITY" from Psychic Terrain

>>30370006
It's not okay to allow Blaze Blaziken because you haven't drawn a line of what Ubers can't come down no matter what changes you make to them. Those rules are too arbitrary when it's much simpler for both Smogon and the players to simply ban a whole Pokemon or ability than making a whole list of footnotes for every single Pokemon.

>>30369969
The point is not that the move is broken, it's that Topu Waifu gets some sort of ultra STAB on it.
In any case, everyone knows how strong she is so I feel that her getting suspected is inevitable. Leave all the whining for after omgon makes their decision.

>>30369875
Keldeo's type combination and coverage is easier to check though, isn't it?

>>30369995
Sharpedo's Speed Boost is as an HA, so it can run the (admittedly not great) Rough Skin, no harm no foul

>>30370016
and I'm sure Speed Boost is just as much of a problem in those tiers.

>>30370013
And why shouldn't you allow my convoluted bullshit? You haven't defined any rules.

>>30370016
So ban it in places where it's a problem but not in LC unless it becomes a problem there? What's so complicated?

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Ok, fuck smogon, let's make our tiers and clauses
I'll start:
>Ogre Clause: Kyogre with only Water Gun is allowed in PU

>>30370100
Because it's needlessly complicated.

>>30364264
I was always more put off with how shitty they look rather than anything to do with their presence in the meta

>>30370148
How though? You ban things when they become problems and everything revolves around them instead of being balanced. Having slightly more complicated rules isn't so big of a deal that Smogon needs to outright say "no you can't have anything that's not easy to understand at a glance", especially when they do it anyway.

>>30370145
oooh, I have the perfect theme for this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sG5YwPtetk

>>30370145
>One of these gens Deoxys will actually work in OU Clause: Deoxys-A is allowed, but only if it holds an Iron Ball.

>>30370077
eh, it's not about the combination and coverage (although Psychic/Focus Blast/Shadow Ball are far better coverage than Water/Fighting) but the combination of hitting so hard and getting rid of any priority that should easily take care of her

as said before, without resistances/immunities a Scarfed Tapu Lele is for all purposes of OU unstoppable

>>30370059
>>30370068
I'm saying that you're retarded for thinking that Tapu Lele is super strong just because its Psyshock can beat Chansey when any Psychic-type's Psyshock can beat Chansey because Chansey literally has like base 10 Defense.

It's also only natural that a pokemon can sweep a team after it's checks and counters are removed, that's the point of sweepers. Tapu Lele is broken because it's impossible to revenge kill, not because it can sweep a team.

>>30370148
>"X ability on Y mon is banned" is too complicated
>"You can Baton Pass multiple non-speed stats, and you can Baton Pass Speed, but you can't pass a non-Speed stat and Speed" isn't complicated
"WAHHH THEY GONNA HAVE MUD SLAP GROUDONS IN MUH NU IF WE GO DOWN THIS ROUTE"

>>30370193
Because it makes no sense to allow something in one tier arbitrarily while disallowing it everywhere else.

>>30370246
Of course it fucking makes sense. If something's not a problem in a tier, you allow it in a tier. Are you just really stupid or something? What the fuck are you typing?

>>30370246
you mean like how Ubers are allowed in one tier but disallowed everywhere else? :^)

>>30370232
the fucking part about the "no priority" in Psychic Terrain shouldn't be fucking mentioned to start with, it's fucking obvious, you just started a retarded argument just for the sake of confrontation, holy shit

>>30370242
I'm not saying I agree with the Baton Pass clause entirely. The way they handled it is clumsy at best.

>>30370232
>when any Psychic-type's Psyshock can beat Chansey because Chansey literally has like base 10 Defense.
Not really. Do the calcs.

>>30370145
>OU
>Nose Clause: Only Pokemons with huge noses are allowed.

>>30370280
The only person who is retarded is using the fact that Psyshock beats a special wall as evidence that a pokemon is some unbeatable god because they believed that Psyshock hit Special Defense and are still trying to save face.