Which region specific "HM" was the worst? Worst utilized?

Whirlpool in the Johto games. Sinnoh was definately the worst about it though.

>>30286290
Whirlpool because of how pointless it was

>>30286290
anything mandatory, like BW's Cut.

>>30286290
Defog, it's always defog.
HMs in general were especially bad in gen 4.

Even as a Sinnohfetus I'm gonna vote Defog.

Mudsdale is at least fun to ride around on, and Whirlpool impedes your progress, Defog is just "Have fun seeing through some slight haze we put on the screen fuckwad"

>>30286290
Dive pissed me off more than any of them. But, I guess if you're excluding it: defog was the "worst." Didn't really bother me since I never used it and still generally managed to hit my moves 90% of the time. But it was an unneeded waste of space.

Defog was fucking terrible, I'd have to pick that

>>30286290
Defog, it is literally a dead move in game. At least Whirlpool can do minor damage, Dive is Water Dig, Flash lowers accuracy, but 99% of NPCs don't use spikes and reflect.

>>30286349
Cut is in every game dumbass.
And it's used like once in BW.

Rock Climb.
Its called a fucking ladder.

>>30286328
>>30286348
Whirlpool was mainly there to block off the Legendary Den though, which I get. So I didnt mind it. I probably hate it the least.

The only time it was really annoying is putting one of the PokeGear friends in a place only accessible by Whirlpool. Fuck that.

Pager Mudsdale and Defog were 10 times more obnoxious

>>30286440
Mudsdale wasn't really obnoxious.

>>30286413
Pretty sure the only game it is not necessary to complete the game is RSE, could be wrongo though.

>>30286290
Whirlpool because johto requires surf, waterfall, and whirlpool. As someone who doesnt use hm slaves it was really annoying to slap all of these on my dedicated water pokemon.

>>30286290
Whirlpool is probably the 'objective worst' but I hated Rock Climb. At least Strength, Surf, Waterfall were all decent moves. Even Cut and Rock Smash were at the begining of the game. You never NEED Flash or Defog, they just make exploring easier. Rock climb was just shitty enough I minded having it on one of my main team, but almost useless enough it wasn't worth it. There's like 2 times you NEED it and the rest is all optional exploration for mostly shitty items.

At least Whirlpool gated off Lugia, which is a cool thing to find. Rock Climb is just a nuisance you don't NEED to carry around but you're going to miss a lot of random stuff so you might as well.

>>30286440
I really didn't like Mudsdale either. Definitely should've been something more unique. Had to squeeze in an Alola mon, I'm sure.

>>30286500
you need almost every hm to get through victory road

>>30286551
They should have just given Mudsdale Tauros' role.

>>30286500
Not Cut

>>30286483
It was in that we randomly got a new Pager for something incredibly situational that was incredibly slow when not pressing B so you were switching between using it and turning it off a lot.

>>30286500
No, you need it to get to the Celadon Gym

>>30286551
I remember seeing some fences at one point with what looked like shit on the other side.
I thought that there would be pokemon that could jump over things.

Imagine my disappointment when there wasnt.
Mudsdale would be great for jumping fences and stuff, not just crossing rough terrain.

for that matter, where the fuck was Gogoat. Wasnt riding on it the entire gimmick?

>>30286440
Gen7 should be excluded from this conversation though. I'll take the current system 100 times over compared to having to put HMs on ANY pokemon. They should have been gone years ago.

>>30286620
KEK meant to respond to >>30286603

>>30286608
This would have been a good idea, in my opinion. Tauros is alright I guess but this way we get an Alola mon and something a little different.

>>30286641
>Celadon
>RSE

Craggy rocks were in Kalos.

>>30286328
Sinnoh had a lot of low level areas near end game areas so you couldn't catch a sweeper

Ride Pagers are all really fucking stupid, but not an inconvenience.

They are there solely to railroad the story, as usual with HMs.

>>30286641
Are you trolling me? The Celadon Gym isn't in RSE.

>>30286349
BW1 was the best about HMs tbqh, you only ever needed to use cut that one time, after that HMs were completely optional for the rest of the game.

They were mainly used for shortcuts and optional areas from then on.

>>30286659
The move being an item instead of a mon is less tedious from a team perspective, but not from an overworld perspective. Waterfall is a good move but one may still complain it's an annoying way to travel.

Rock Climb. Especially when they put fifty individual seguments together. Really made already slow games even slower.

>>30286620
Or dive for that matter.
I don't think you needed Flash either in the same way you can get through the rock tunnel without it.

Anything that respawns back in place like those damn trees for cut and those boulders for strength. One and done damn it.

I'm gonna miss pokerides becase we all know GF will likely get rid of them.

>>30286813
Yeah, it'll be the region exclusive gimmick knowing GF.

>>30286751
Johto and Kalos were similar. Outside Cut a few Times in Johto, pretty much every HM was only for use in Mt Mortar, Dark Cave, or some other optional area. It even relagated Rock CLimb to post game exploration rather than making it mandatory

>>30286767
It was irritating for me because you were forced into 2 options every time.

1. Make an HM slave and sacrifice a party member for certain parts of the game
2. You're forced to team a Pokemon that can learn said moves

If you've done a mono run in any particular game with bad HM pathways, this can be a major immersion breaker. Annoying travel mechanics aside, Sun/Moon taking the other part of the equation out still makes it a million times better in the right direction.

>>30286290
Mudsdale is the least utilized but isn't anywhere close to being as bad as the worst HM.

Gen 2 Whirlpool and Gen 4 Defog are far worse. I can't imagine a mountable Pokémon EVER being as obnoxious as an HM.

I will say this, the Ride Pager is infinitely superior to HMs.

I absolutely love riding pokemon, I love using my dream team the entire game without HM slaves.
Even the more useless ones like Stoutland and Mudsdale are fun just for the novelty of riding Stoutland and Mudsdale.

If they continue it in the future, i'd love them to add some stupid gimmick ones for shits and giggles, even if they have no actual use. Like a slowpoke that makes you move at a crawling pace.

>>30286290
Sinnoh was the worst offender just because the HMs were especially bad. Never used Defog once in a normal playthrough. At least Whirpool has trapping properties.

Also, Rock Climb was shit.

>>30286632
That's not really obnoxious as much as it was unnecessary. Especially with how quick it is switching between rides.

Kind of the same with Lapras. There's no point in Lapras once you get Sharpedo.

>>30286813
I hope to God not. One of the best parts of Sun and Moon has been having access to every "HM" at once without gimping my party.

>>30286966
You can't fish with sharpedo just like oras.

>>30286904

All they really had to do was make all the moves high damage and different typings but nooooo, 3 fucking gens of Rock Smash being terrible, 6 of them with Strength having no additional effects.

And of course

MANDATORY
MOVES
THAT AREN'T
100% ACCURACY

Notice that nobody complained about Surf, just asked why Cut wasn't an 80 BP Grass Move that it should have been from Gen 2 onwards.

>>30286904
>>30286918
Oh certainly. I cant deny that at all. It's just Team composition wasnt really the point of the thread, or Ride Mons wouldnt be here. It's all about how they are in relation to the overworld. And in that way, I just dont think Mudsdale deserves any compliments

>>30286949
That sounds like a bad idea. I hated how Stoutland Search meant the Dowsing Machine could only be used while you were going incredibly slowly, and we were too big to fit everywhere, despite items being found in smaller areas. If they're making gimmick ones, keep it away from useful items

>>30286966
Lapras is needed to fish.

Also you have to look at it from an in-world perspective, Poke Ride is meant to be used by tourists. Some people are gonna want to have a gentle ride on Lapras instead of an intense ride on Sharpedo. Imagine if you went on vacation and your only method of aquatic travel was a jetski.

>>30286998
All they had to do to fix Strength was change it to Rock and change the description to "Rolls a boulder into the foe". Rock Slide would be for Doubles, Stone Edge would be its only competition for being stronger and less accurate

I don't really mind Cut and Rock Smash being weak since they're early game moves, the problem with them is that they're undeletable

>>30287067
They should had kept the itemfinder as headgear or a bottom screen thing like in ORAS, gen 5 and gen 4.

Also it wasn't until I saw it the other day that I realised that Stoutland is wearing one of those dog rain jackets.

>>30286685
>>30286735
Forgive me, im retarded and cant read

>>30287067
Well i just meant for gimmicks
>slowpoke: does nothing but move slow
>Dodrio: Fast, and can flutter short gaps.
>Gogoat: Does nothing, but let you ride in style
>Snorlax: Doesnt move at all, but lets you sleep on his belly.
>Lati@s: soar mode from ORAS
>Shoulder mon: does nothing, but lets small pokemon from your party ride on your shoulder. Only select mons can be used for this.

>>30286411
>dead move
defog is like the only one of these moves used in comp

>>30286801
I was a little kid when I played Blue and I didn't know that flash was a thing, so I got very good at memorizing the path through Rock Tunnel, especially since I replayed the game a lot. Same with Granite Cave and Victory Road in Sapphire. I have no idea how I had the patience back then.

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>>30287198
No worries!

>>30286966
Unecessary and tedious is the definition of obnoxious. We're letting our understandable relief at the loss of HMs make us go too easy on things that were still not that great.

>>30287205
dodrio as a ride mon would've been neat if it could hop over one way ledges
gogoat would be cool if it was sanic fast

>>30286290
Defog. It's either waste a moveslot on a flying Pokemon or experience the worst "weather" effect in the series. Defog was terrible and nothing has been as bad since (thankfully).

If DPPt get remakes and Defog is forced down our throats AGAIN I'll be eternally triggered.

>>30287228
it only removed hazards in gen 6 and onward

>>30287228
Not in gen 4 it wasn't.
They've only just buffed it in 6 if I remember right.

>>30287228
Though IIRC, it didn't clear hazards in gen IV like it does now. So it genuinely was useless when it was first introduced.

>>30287095
what if other regions adopt poke pager for tourism.

>Welcome to poke Russia.
>For riding you get Ursaring.
>For swimming, you get Beartic.
>Bear is only option.
>You want fly to next town?
>Call Bewear. Here is helmet.

>>30287249
Obnoxious would be if it was a constant and slow presence anon. As it stands its not.

Rock climb and HMs in general in Sinnoh is obnoxious. Mudsdale was jus pointless.

>>30286998
I complained about surf. Sometimes I would do a run without a Pokemon that could use it, and it was one of the most consistently necessary HM's in the game.

The real problem with Mudsdale was that he was just poorly executed.
It seems weird to me that he wouldnt be the defacto 'star' of the ride pager, being that he is a new pokemon that people ride on.
Frankly he should have replaced Tauros all together. He could break rocks, run on rough terrain, and most importantly be the first and fastest ride you get.

>>30286813
Right. Just like they got rid of customization and megas.

>>30287413
But the thing about Surf is that its one of the few legitimately useful HMs in the series.
It doesn't matter if it's used everywhere you're not really making a sacrifice by having it.

The reading comprehension on this board is fucking troublesome if this thread is anything to go by.

>>30287489
>following pokemon
>horde battles
>battle frontier
>pokewalker


btfo'd

>>30287489
No, like they got rid of the PSS and half of the Megas.

>>30287413
Surf was at least a halfway passable move.
i mean i actually found myself hurting for it in sun and moon.
My water type would just always have it, just because i always needed it, and they would destroy double battles and what not.

>>30287318
but defog is actually useful now

the distribution for defog is getting more limited over time so the return of defog in the form of a tm would be nice

>>30287489
>he thinks rides are on the same level as customization and megas

>defog
worst offender

>rock climb
I'm already wasting a moveslot on strength, come the fuck on.

>dive
I'm already forced to run waterfall on my special attacker, are you serious?

Those are the most obnoxious ones.

>>30287603
>but defog is actually useful now
In competitive.
In game it's just a waste of a slot.

>>30287386
I see what you mean, I guess we just have to disagree on how annoying it was.

>>30287682
Fair enough.

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>>30287359

>>30287359
>want break rock?
>we give Pangoro

>>30286290
I love using moves to interact with the overworld and reach new areas. It's much better than simply walking up a ledge and that's it. It also allows for more intricate area designs and quick "unlockable" shortcuts. I just wish HMs didn't take up a move slot and were unforgettable on their own.

>>30287359
>Call Bewear. Here is helmet.
Fucking lel

>>30286508
>not just putting whirlpool on a shitmon for those 2 times you use it.

you deserve it.

>>30287489
They did get rid of customization for ORAS though.

>>30287522
Unless you run a physical water type in which case you have to decide between taking up a party slot with a surf shitmon or taking up a move slot with surf

>>30287465
This, honestly. Its a mystery why they thought Kanto needed 4 pokemon

>>30286290
Defog because the game punishes you in battle for not using it.

>BW
>Worst use of HMs

Unova is literally the only region you only need to use any HM to finish the game once, Cut, just in the start of the game. Every other HM is to reach different parts of the map just for the sake of exploration or make paths shorter.

RSE and DPPt are really bullshit, because you need HMs every fucking time, like Rock Smash to pass through Verdanturf and Granine Cave. The same goes to all Rock Climb and Defog necessity.

The original Defog.

>>30287228
In Gen IV Defog only removed hazards from your opponent's field.

>>30288303
Eh RSE doesn't use them as much as DPPt. Plus it's a hell of a lot faster too.

>>30286813
Since they probably now know how much the community hates HM's, they probably will carry the Pokerider on, probably not like how it's named now do, like how they renamed Amie Refresh and obviously different mons. But it will still probably be there, remember everyone tought Amie will be gone or customization, but they still brought it back. GF is incompete, there's no hiding that, but they have shown that they care (in some way) for the community and try to make the journey easier.

But if we're getting Sinnoh remakes at some point or any remake for that matter, don't expect the Pokerider to be there, they did the same thing with ORAS.

I think Whirlpool, Waterfall and Dive should be only unlockable new abilities of Sufing Pokémon. Like, you got 6th badge and your Pokémon now can use surf to dive into deep areas. We would get rid of half of the problems, since like half of all HMs are water-related.

Strengh should be a fighting move too to make Rock Smash and Rock Climb new abilities outside of battle.

>>30288541
>remember everyone tought Amie will be gone
No one thought that.

>>30288617
I thought, because it's a stupid gimmick.

>>30288383
Still needs plenty including Rock Smash which is one of the worsts. It's still a terrible offender.

>>30289056
Idiots don't count as people I'm afraid.

>>30289244
You only use I like 4 times and only one of which is intrusive.

>>30286290
I don't know, dive was pretty cool in ORAS to have another perspective to an underwater pokemon habitat with the ability to scan wild pokemon down there with dexnav.

>>30287359
What about Spinda and Komala (even though Koalas aren't bears)

>>30289056
I like it.

>>30289056
I bet you don't even name your pokemon.
Heartless bastard.

>>30288617
You weren't around when that happened, it was so stupid, I was always saying they won't, but nope, retards just kept on comming, just like the Mega Evolution thing.

>>30287359
>you want find things?
>take vodka, you be on ground soon enough, find many things

Surprising that when we can no longer cut things we also lose the random trees all over the place that need to be cut

Same for the giant boulders everywhere that need to be moved around

>>30290759
I actually do miss the old strength puzzles, they were kind of fun.

>>30290759
There are still giant boulders that need to be moved around. They're just cube shaped now.

>>30290817
There's the one for the poni island shrine, and I think I saw one a lot earlier in the game.

Aside from that though I haven't seen them

>>30290787
Yeah, I thought the boulders in front of every Tapu shrine would be puzzles, but they're totally not.

>>30290787
I miss ice sliding puzzles. Hell, I miss puzzles in general.
No puzzles to mention in S&M. They're sorely lacking.

>>30290915
The closest thing to puzzles is the trials.

However you can't really call any of them puzzles, even the one thats actually supposed to be a puzzle (fire trial).

>>30290949
The first dance is sort of a puzzle.

I think the other two are decent jokes though

>>30290972
I did not expect the Hiker to just pop out of nowhere, sides were lost.

>>30290915

I miss the deep caves and forests in general. Alola routes are awesome, but more dungeon-like locations are sorely lacking.

>>30291022
>Go, my hiker!

>>30286378
This is the right answer, also who liked fucking Rock Climb?

>>30286966
Lapras can fish, while Sharpedo only has one route where his ramming is needed. It's not like the water routes are frequent or large, either, despite being on tropical islands.

>>30286290
>tfw they won't bring back pokerides
>tfw they won't bring back pokerides for the inevitable Sinnoh remake, where 6 of the 8 HMs were needed to complete the game, with Fog just being an incredible annoyance without Defog.
The change in convenience is going to be way too jarring, I'm scared guys.

>>30291440
To be fair there's always a fishing spot by land.
And there's rocks to break on just about every part of the sea.

>>30287249
>I'm literally pretending like I know what obnoxious means but I really don't.

Fucking Google it, you dolt.

As someone who has hiked a lot, I didn't like needing a Rhyhorn or Mudsdale over something that could easily be walked over.

>>30291731
Google opinion

>>30290915
Love the sliding ice puzzles. Its a shame the SM overworld is so straightforward. Even the rotes were more straightforwards than I expected

>>30286290
Was there a use for whirlpool besides like one area?

Fucking Hoenn

>>30292293
>using opinion as a cover for ignorance

Are you fcuking retarded?

>>30292646
What about it?

>>30287359
>Welcome to Pokestralia
>For riding you get Kangaskhan
>For swimming you get Kangaskhan in board shorts
>For flying you get Kangaskhan, and some alcohol to drink till you pass out so when you wake up you're at your destination

>>30287359
Bewear can know Aerial Ace, good enough.

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>>30292293
Ok, I did but seriously your opinions fucking suck.

>>30286290
Whirlpool, especially in SS where you're forced to use it to catch Lugia to progress through the game. I would say Defog, but you don't even need it to get through foggy areas so it's not nearly as annoying.

>>30292868
>>30293340
You really dont need to get so angry just because I find Mudsdale Trot obnoxious you know.

Of all the things to put so much energy into defending, I really dont think this is wort your time.

>>30292646
The Rock Smash Rocks above Mauville will always be the most annoying overworld obstacle in the history of the series.

>>30293494
You're the mad one. I'm just letting you know that people rightfully believe you to be an ass.

>>30286429
This and defog. At one point I think I had two fucking HM slaves during Sinnoh. To not talk about the surf speed and encounter rate.

I can see RSE dive being annoying but I liked exploring, specially in ORAS.

Another worthy mention is RBY cut which needs to be used from the menu.

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>>30293553
>no you
>projecting your thoughts on everyone in the thread
you epic le pwned me real good

>>30293810
>implying I'm the only one.

Have a good one, bruv.

Strength puzzles, they're so easy and boring but take a fuckton of time anyway because the boulder goes at snail speed and you need to use the HM again if you change room. I hate victory roads because they're shitty caves full of boulders.

>>30293494
Nigga Mudsdale is the least of your problems. You don't even know what half the words you're using mean.

>>30291325
How? Rock climb was fun and less boring than rock smash/cut, while providing for interesting maps. Sure, having to see your mon on the screen each damn time gets old real quick. Should've done something like strength

>>30293933
There's a Ride Pager worse than Mudsdale? I am legit curious what you think it is.

I also dont know what "big words" I was even using that someone could not understand

>>30293494
How is it "obnoxious"? It's weird how it seems to bother you so much when it's the same as all the other Pagers.

>>30294021
Anon pls stop posting. Its ok if people think you're stupid because of your opinions.
Get better ones.

>>30295025
It felt the most tacked on, and the least interesting.

Like the Wario Magnet in Yoshi's Island DS. Something that really only exists to increase the numbers of a feature.

>>30295103
Seriously, this one man tirade you have against this viewpoint is honestly really odd. I legitimately wonder if you're 14 or something.

>>30295025
>>30295342
To explain more. HMs and Poke Ride existed as a way to block off sections of the map to you until it's time to explore it, or to add new locations to old places, but this one is given to you right when the thing it was needed to pass was introduced.

There was no need for it to exist. It not existing at all and the route being normal would have made the game exactly the same, as all it did was take a normal place and turn it into one where you need to hold B to go forward.

It has less similar with normal Poke Ride and more in common with the Kalos Ride Pokemon routes, which are some of the worst routes in the entire franchise. This is about as in depth as I can be about it.

>>30286966
Sharpedo has a 66% less chance of finding wild pokemon, so people might want to use Lapras if their looking for a specific ocean poke

riding mudsdale over rocks is the exact same fucking thing as riding ryhorn over rocks

rockclimb definitely

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>>30286290

I liked Dive, that one was good.

Fucking Mudsdale thing is 100% Nebby-in-bag retarded.

>>30286290

Mudsdale is the only correct answer.

Why would the people of Alola leave random fucking ground around that cannot be traversed without getting on a horse? There is no reason for that shit to exist. Even if they did leave it around, you can just jump on a Charizard and fly over that shit. Mudsdale was forced and had no reason to exist.

Though Whirlpools are also retarded. Could have just flown over those, too.

>>30300025
>>30297775 is right in that it's pretty much one of those shitty Kalos ride routes.

Surf in Gen III