General VGC`17 thread

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*most common pokemon of the top 20 teams on Showdown VGC`17
*Decidueye is only on the #2 and #3 team (who use the exact same team) -- nowhere else

What do you guys think the best Z-moves are going to be?

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Am I viable?

>>30253476
>Four of the mons I use are common meta

I feel dirty

>>30253883
When I was analyzing top teams I saw a lilligant on one of them and it did a good job. If lilligant did a good job then I assume you can too. Probably not the best pokemon overall, but this generation is starved for good grass types so if you need one on your team you could opt for her

>>30253925
Lilligant is pretty shit in itself and is only used because she can be paired with Drought Torkoal on meme teams and use After Me, which lets Torkoal pull off a sunny day-boosted Eruption very early in the turn.

>>30253476
How are people running Decidueye?

>>30253055
I feel constricted because of this meta. I would like to run my normal status-heavy type of team, but with Tapu Fini running around I feel unsafe.

I would like to run priority moves to get an edge on speed, but with Tapu Lele running around it would be unwise to rely on priority moves.

I would like to run Earthquake with an immune partner for synergy, but with Tapu Bulu running around my move could get shut down on the switch-in from Tapu Bulu and do half damage.

I would like to run Sleep somehow, but with Tapu Koko running around I can't do that either.

Basically I feel like the only safe strategy right now is to use basic, all-out attacks of high base power on fast 'mons. Everything else gets shut down instantly by the Tapu family. My favorite strategy is to spread burn and paralyze and wear down the enemy team until my late game ace pokemon can take advantage of weakened pokemon, but I can't do that strategy anymore because paralyze, confusion, and burn were all nerfed, Machamp was nerfed, and they even felt like those nerfs weren't enough and added a free safeguard-on-switch-in legendary pokemon with good stats and good support movepool to the game. That's why trick room is the top 15 teams right now, because it's just a basic speed control + strong BP moves teams. Nothing to stop that shit when you're afraid to bring status/priority moves.

>>30254075
Sucker punch, leaf blade i think, some other gay attacking moves, protect, with ghostium Z to use his signature z move.

he is only on team #2 and #3 and since this meta is so young it's entirely possible that this guy rose to the top of the ladder even with a shitmon on his team because people don't have efficient team designs yet.

>>30254142
You could always run bulu to guarantee grassy terrain and make sure you can get status down/use priority

>>30253925
Shitmon only work because of specific niches, Liligant's is chlorophyll/After You. Tsareena has no such niche since Lele cucks her out of the anti-priority role.

>>30253055
I saw some people running Follow Me Smeargle + ExtremeBoost Eeevee. Sounds fun.

>>30254227
Does misty terrain heal pokemon that are already statused, or does it leave them with burn and stuff?

>>30254385
doesn't heal, only prevents

>>30254385
It's basically Safeguard

>>30253476
Proofs?
How did you get usage data already

>>30254294
I detailed this strategy, used by the #6 on the ladder, in the last thread where I posted my meta report. This strategy was apparently noticed by Wolfe Glick because he did a competitive analysis video for Eevee.
What you'll need to remember is that Eevee is fucking weak and is not holding Eviolite (needs Eevium Z for the move). This also means the enemy has used his Z-Move and you can expect it not to be a factor in the rest of the battle. The enemy also used 2 fodder pokemon that don't contribute to the rest of the battle in order to set up Tapu Lele and Arcanine, so if you can kill just one of them the battle will swing in your favor. You could also use any move like Roar, Destiny Bond, Perish Song, or Psych Up yourself to beat this strategy.

smeargle eevee lead: eevee extreme evo boosts while smeargle Follows Me, then Eevee baton passes to arcanine. arcanine spams heat wave.
Tapu Lele comes in and Psychs Up on the allied arcanine and gets +2s everywhere as well. You actually want the Smeargle to die fast so that you can
get Tapu Lele to come in.
Tapu Lele has sitrus berry and spams Dazzling Gleam. Sometimes baton pass to Tapu Lele if the enemy resists fire or has ground moves, or
if you suspect the enemy has metagross in the back or something and you want to bring out arcanine later for the Intimidate. Eevee has Eevium Z, probably a few speed EVs,
helping hand, baton pass, extreme evoboost, and something else.

>>30254451
>>30254467
OK good, now I can use my preferred strategy.

Now I have to deal with new problems. The biggest problem I think is that the meta is filled with special attackers, so burn doesn't do as much as I want it to. I also can't confuse them anymore because the chance to not move is so low. What should I do for the special attackers? I need something that weakens their special attacks, so possibly light screen support or snarl?

And also, I'm unfamiliar with the new pokedex, so what will be the best burn/paralyze spreaders here?

>>30254611
Snarl might help here

>>30254508
I explained in that exact post how I got it.

The predominant strategy right now is Trick Room, with Torkoal + Oranguru cheese being present on many of the top teams.

>>30254643
>strategy
just be honest and call it a gimmick because that is all it is

>>30254611
When I analyzed the top 20 teams, I only noticed one team that relied heavily on status. The pokemon he used was Mimikyu to spam Will-O-Wisp. You may also consider any Scald user, and Togedemaru with Nuzzle. It's too bad for you that Confusion was nerfed, because it really would help with Tapu Lele. However, Sableye learns Will-O-Wisp and has access to Snarl, so it is a pokemon you may want to consider.

>>30254551
>helping hand, baton pass, extreme evoboost, and something else.
I actually looked up his fights. After watching a few, I came to the conclusion of.

Timid-Smeargle: Spore, Fake Out, Wide Guard, Follow Me
Modest-Arcanine: Burnout, Heat wave, Snarl, Protect
Modest-Tapu Lele: Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Protect, Psych Up
Tmid-Eevee: Baton Pass, Last Resort, Helping Hand, Protect

The natures are just me guessing, the movesets are spot-on though.

Holy shit, torkoal? Wot

>>30254733
Wolfe Glick did a video on it, this was the set he used. Main difference is Clefairy instead of Arcanine
http://pastebin.com/BWMYmYcw

>>30253476
>Decidueye, Ninetales, Torkoal, Drampa and my two favorite Tapus are in the top 20
This is a good day.

>>30254787
Torkoal has amazing power dude.

>>30254796
>That Smeargle
>Not running Focus Sash instead of Choice Scarf
>Not running Moody, since it's allowed

I feel like the Arcanine variant is still better though.

>>30254844
Decidueye is there, but not really there. He only exists as an anomaly on a single team.

>>30254787
Sun-Boosted Choice Spec'd Double Eruption isn't anything to scoff at.

>>30254878
He uses it to transform into his baton passed Lele, not to redirect. Only redirects if he's out of options.

>>30254714
What counts as a strategy in your opinion?

>>30254914
anything that isn't teams that are overreliant on Trick Room and collapse completely when they fail to set up

>>30254878
He does run moody in one of the matches I watched

>>30254878
>I feel like the Arcanine variant is still better though.

Arcanine variant gets completely stopped by Rain teams.

>>30254966
OK I agree with the "having no backup plan if TR fails" pushes you more towards the gimmicky side

>>30254972
no it doesn't. The true point is to have tapu Lele with +2Def/SpDef/SpA/Spe.

Arcanine is only there to make sure that happens. He likes the stat boosts because it means he can live for a long time and provide Snarl support and weaken enemy's attacking power, so that they can't kill Lele before +2 Lele kills them. Arcanine's Heat Wave isn't really the point, although I will concede that it's nice to halve its damage. And also if your team is weak to Fire you're just going to lose.

>>30254733
>>30254903
>>30254967
How come A-Muk doesn't stop this strategy? Dazzling gleam is resisted. Is it because of snarl support from arcanine makes muk so weak he can't kill lele fast enough?

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Just completed the dex so I can finally start playing on VGC.
Early metas make me panic because it's more or less like walking in the dark.

>>30255093
Just pick a mon you really like and want to use, then build around it. Try it out on showdown and adjust as necessary.

>>30255084
Arcanine's Intimidate.

It also can't handle Dazzling Gleam+Burn Up

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>xurkitree used discharge!
>oranguru used instruct!
>xurkitree used discharge!

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>>30254551
>>30254733
>>30254796
>>30254878
>>30254903
>>30254967
>>30254972
You know what's coming in, just put a Calm Minder on your team or use Tailwind. GG.


It's a common pitfall against these gimmicks to react with, "HOW CAN I STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH NO IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!" The enemy team is dedicating 2 shitmons to specifically do this task, so yeah it's probably impossible to stop. You would have to specifically design your team just to beat the gimmick, and even then it's probably a guessing game involving Fake Out, Spore, Wide Guard, and Protect.

The correct reaction isn't, "How can I stop this oh nooo," because that involves changing moves on your team into shit that will only help you during this one fucking situation. Just build your team correctly and have one booster, then you can say "cool, 2 free turns of setup" and start dragon dancing on Gyarados, setup Tailwind, setup Trick Room without cost, or do some other crazy shit just like the opponent. At the end of it all you'll have a +2/+2 Gyarados on the field with Tailwind down + a free Z-Move slot the opponent doesn't have, and 2 more pokemon at the back that have real moves instead of being shitmons like eevee with 45 base HP and no damage moves.

>>30253476
What's the deal with Lanturn?

Lanturn on my team bitch. Thanks for the free switch in and heal.

>>30255771
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2017-483028765

You mean how this guy tried to set-up?

>>30255863
>>30255863
That guy roared himself out and killed his own Tapu Koko.

If you have 46 chromosomes you can do it correctly.

You gotta remember the enemy team has to run this gimmick against every single team imaginable. That means wasting moveslots AND teamslots to specifically beat certain team matchups like taunt. If you have a normal setup sweeper on your team, you have all your normal moves and good coverage, plus 3 other great pokemon on your team that are good in general.

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>>30255630
What's the interaction between Instruct and a flinched target?

If the target flinched and doesn't use a move at all, then Instruct is used on it, I assume that Instruct just fails.

Cuz that would be the easiest way to stop this Oranguru spam that half of top teams are doing. If you see the enemy has Oranguru and Wishiwashi on the field you know what's coming. Just use Wide Guard, get a free switch in to your Fake Out user, Fake Out onto Wishiwashi, Instruct fails.

>>30255962
I don't know how accurate the simulator, but I've seen Extreme Eeveeboost go through taunt.

In which case, you predict the taunt, switch out smeargle for Lele and Psyche Up on the Eevee.

>>30256075
>Used instruct
>It flinched!

That's what happens, double flinch.

>>30256075
>>30256172
Nice find anon!

>>30256082
It's right, Z-Moves can't be stopped at all, all Taunt would do is stop the BP but the Evoboost would still work and you only have 2 more turns to find a solution to it.

>>30253476
>*most common pokemon of the top 20 teams on Showdown VGC`17
where can you see that?

>>30256082
All of that takes turns to accomplish, turns that you will be using to dragon dance. Turn 1 Evoboost and switch, Turn 2 Psych Up, Turn 3 Lele attacks. That's also assuming that Smeargle switches out for Lele on turn 1, which is risky and not going to happen in all cases. If he fails to switch on turn 1 you get another turn of setup still. And you still have your z-move.

You can get to +2/+2 Gyarados in that time, or you could get to +4 with Lucario, Garchomp, Scizor, Incineroar, Decidueye, Lycanroc, Lurantis, Bewear, Golisopod, Silvally, Komala, Mimikyu, Bruxish, Dhelmise, Tapu Bulu, or Kartana. After that you just need Tailwind, Fake Out onto Lele, or Follow Me and you won the game.

>>30253055
why is follow me a priority move? jesus christ that shit is imba

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>>30256390
>Z-status moves can't be stopped by Taunt

>>30256576
look up the top players then go to the replays section and watch their matches

>>30256587
lele is also vulnerable to roar, taunt, fake out, muk, and steel moves on the turn she's trying to psych up.

>>30256704
What does Muk do on Lele precisely?
I know he can taunt, but he does neutral damage no?

>>30256704
>look up the top players then go to the replays section and watch their matches
So it's just a deduction then...
I knew it was strange for drampa to be on that top.

>>30256390
Who cares if you got a evoboosted eevee. Taunt stop everything good from happening with it. Taunt stops the psych up, taunt stops the baton pass, taunt stops everything. And if you already taunted the eevee to try and stop the evoboost then the taunt is going to last 3 more turns and you can rip apart his poorly designed team in the mean time while he is waiting to pass that boost.

>>30256786
Nevermind, I always assumed poison is 0.5 against psychic.

Good thing we have the "casual table" this gen.

>>30256795
He is common on trick room teams, but nowhere else. But trick room is very common. What surprises you about drampa being good? he has a deep movepool and stab hyper voice.

>>30256786
Gunk shot and iirc posion jab are ohko

>>30256837
Some Type interactions are weird man. A lot of times Types are SE against another type, but not resistant to its attacks.

>>30256853
Only Gunk Shot is.

252+ atk Poison Jab should never OHKO Lele not even if it runs absolutely no defenses. If Muk gets Intimidated Gunk Shot can never OHKO either unless you run something weird like LO on a slow bulky tank. Even with LO at -1 atk only Gunk Shot can net the KO, Poison Jab fails again.

>tfw I only come to these threads for gimmick sets to cheese the Battle Tree with.

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Mourning the loss of my sweet kingdra. How do I abuse rain in this new generation?

How does my team sound?

Tapu Bulu
A-Exeggutor
A-Marowak
A-Raichu
Torkoal
Oranguru

If HA for starters become available in switching raichu for incineroar

>>30253055
Perish trap isn't possible this generation is it?

>>30257714
I think the only trapper available is regular Dugtrio which for some reason doesn't seem to be legal on Showdown even though you can simply Everstone a Tangled Hair A-Diglett/Dugtrio for Arena Trap Dugtrio.

>>30257841
Not in the Aloladex = not legal. Same with island scan pokes.

>>30257841
no origin forms are legal

>>30257714
You can put thousand waves on smeargle I guess.

>>30256852
fuck off

>>30258022
no you couldn't

What's a good setup for Xurkitree?

>>30257714
>>30258022
how long does anchor shot's trapping effect last?

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>>30257374
Koko Thunders and Steels.

You can always be a madman and run Double Poli like this guy did back in 2014.

http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/706-the-wrath-of-khan-a-us-nationals-report/

>>30258136
Same as Mean Look or any other trapping move does, until Dhelmis switches or faints.

>>30258061
Huh why not? I put it on mine and it does damage, don't even use any hacking tools.

>>30258255
Who wins if everyone dies to perish song on the last turn?

>>30258181
You wouldn't use Toed anymore unless you really need perish song.

>>30258483
The fastest Pokemon die first so whoever has the slowest mon in the field wins.

>>30258181
>open tapu fini + poliwrath
>Z-Splash + Swagger onto poliwrath
>confusion doesn't affect him because of misty terrain
>switch out to pelipper 2nd turn, the rain affects turn order on that turn, poliwrath OHKOs something with waterfall

>>30258761
>3 electric weak pokemon in the same strat

this just autoloses to lanturn senpai.

>>30258761
Just Z-Belly Drum lad. That set-up it needlessly convoluted and I don't think I have to tell you why 3 water types is a bad idea with Koko everywhere right now.

What you need is Fake Out and redirection support so that Poliwrath can wreck shit in peace.

>>30258853
Well I still like the Fini swagger strat. Do you think that would work if I do it on a better pokemon like Celesteela, Bulu, Muk, Scizor, Garchomp?

>>30259192
Metagross is the premier swag receiver.

>>30259222
oh it's a strat that someone already thought of? oh well.

>>30259272
>oh it's a strat that someone already thought of? oh well.
Since 2012. Safeguard + Swagger has been a thing since then. How new are you?

Best Intimidate counter? I think Milotic @Adrenaline Orb is the best cause it counters all the intimidators

RATE MY TEAM plz n thnx

Xurkitree
Tapu Koko
Oranguru
Pelipper
Marowak
Wishiwashi

Im thinking there might be 2 much water on the team and could swap either politoad or wishiwashi

Best "G" for my "FWG" core (is this a thing in doubles)?

I don't want to use tapu bulu cuz I don't like weakening earthquake. Is... trevenant ok? or maybe A-exeggutor, although I don't know what his strengths are

>>30259346
lanturn pretty much fucks your team, and tapu koko as well

>>30257397
Bump?

I need a high tempo opening that kills a wide variety of pokemon. My goal is to kill 2 very quickly. What you guys got for me? Tapu Koko + something would probably work pretty well.

>>30259429
new teem

Xurkitree
Tapu Koko
Oranguru
Politoad
Marowak
kartana

>>30259485
You barely posted a team.

What are your moves? Your abilities? Your evs? Your strategy and set-ups? Are we supposed to rate your team or make it for you?

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This guy sucks doesn't it?

I want to use him but he's terrible

>>30259599
Frail setup mons are very difficult to use correctly, however it does insane damage with rock slide.
I'd say he has no place on a serious team (very wild guess).

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Let's talk about how to beat this gay trick room oranguru torkoal spam, because the top teams are still using it.

The cool anon beforehand mentioned Fake Out onto the Instruct target, wasting turns and allowing you to KO the torkoal.

Wide Guard, although not from Celesteela because if you predict wrong then torkoal can directly fireblast you and kill your Celesteela.

Rain reduces Eruption power.

Setup + Priority (don't know a great example right now, but SD Scizor is one example) because the TR teams don't bring Tapu Lele so priority moves are safe.

What else? Anyone think of something?

Is Tapu Bulu + Xurkitree a good core? Or are people planning to run non-EQ ground moves to play around grassy terrain?

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Pros:
>no stealth rock in doubles really
>still has 126 speed
>no rock types at all in >>30253476
>best user of tailwind

Cons:
>discharge spam is common
>A-Raichu, Xurkitree, Tapu Koko, Lanturn
>rain teams are common

Mixed:
>Gale Wings nerf means that Brave Bird is disabled against Tapu Lele at full HP, but the nerf is also kind of a buff because Brave Bird can now work at below 100% HP against Tapu Lele

Where does our guy stand?

>>30259829
It's bredy gud. why don't you just plan to use pelipper yourself to switch into any bonemerang and also threaten those same ground/fire types with water attacks

>>30259802
Taunt works unless they are running follow me as well.

The easiest thing is to just carry Politoed and switch in as soon as Torkoal is on the field.

>>30260076
I'm retarded and can't into balanced team building, let alone coming up with sets and even spreads for pokes. Hell, I can't even decide on natures if there's more than 1-2 viable ones.

>>30259521
I'm having trouble thinking of what to run on the team.

>>30260188
Ok well you will have to Scarf Xurkitree so it doesn't die to everything, or just run it alongside another threat that needs to be focused down quickly by 2+ mons so that no matter what, one of your big guys will get to swing his dick around (again, Bulu is bredy good for this)

How long until we have the newest version of OU: The Team: The Game: The Movie: The Experience On Ice & Knuckles?

Those images always made me chuckle, especialy when they give quotes to each member

Is Oranguru a meme outside of being a trick room setter, I keep seeing those >Oranguru used instruct posts, but I'm not sure how to take them.

Breeding for a Trick Room team seems like a pain in the ass, how are you supposed to get 0 IVs in speed on everything, especially legends/UBs?

>>30260042
I think he is pretty good myself. He does 70+% to all the Tapus and that means after setting up tailwind, you can focus down a tapu koko before it kills your birdy. He is still the same old great pokemon, just needs to find his place now that gale wings got busted

>>30260338
You have a 0 IV ditto and soft reset for everything else

>>30260338
There's little reason to use Guru outside of TR, but TR is a very strong archetype this season.

>>30260338
He's good in general. Late game even outside trick room he can kill you with a bulky partner like mudsdale if you can't kill mudsdale in 1 turn.

>>30260338

Oranguru doesn't have stellar stats but it's bulky enough

With a good HP/defenses spread it's probably viable as a support mon. Shame about no recovery though.

Currently trying to work on a A-Raichu/Koko combo, which item should I give to Raichu? I'm thinking air balloon so it can get immunity to earthquake and a (if lucky enough) free turn to set up a reflect, any other item Raichu could use?

>>30260338
Don't worry, trick room is a meme and it will die soon, just like all memes. Memes are not forever. They are just lavishing in their victories now because they got a new broken pokemon called Oranguru with a broken signature move called Instruct, but after people realize they need a taunt user on their team they will start losing and sinking to mid range elo. I am a ladder topper myself and I am working on my team currently, I will start laddering in 4-7 days barring unforeseen circumstances and I will lay to rest all these dumb trick room gimmicks. watch showdown for proof

Why run tapus on a trick room team?

>>30253055
Where do I look up teams/builds? I got my Dittos/Synchronizers and want to start breeding/SRing.

Is Nihilego/Fini a good core for an anti-meta team?

>>30260539
>taunt
>mental herb
>gets up the trick room
wow amazing my dude u stopped the trick room :^)

I'm surprised by Z-Moves, I thought they'd be useless and not worth the item slot, but turns out having a potential easy free KO is huge.
Also they're quite hard to predict.

>>30260681
Taunt isn't to stop the trick room you dunce. You can't stop trick room from going up without drastically altering your team and making it less viable for general play. The best way to deal with trick room teams is to assume that it goes up, but deal with it anyway. You taunt the oranguru so it can't use instruct anymore, then you are free to wide guard and play as normal. Without the instruct, you can win easily. the only reason TR teams are the top of the ladder right now is because they can do 80-100% spread damage in 1 turn. If you change that to just 40-50%, suddenly winning is easy.

>>30260678
If you have to ask then it's probably not.

Why do you think it would be a good anti-meta core?

>>30260678
Nihilego kills all of the tapus (you have to scarf it though or else koko's wild charge kills it), but what is the Fini countering?

>>30257397

Can you go into a little more detail? Moves/items/nature etc?

>>30260783
and wat makes you think people dont keep checks for out of trick room?

>>30260539
>>30260783
>Trick Room is a meme team
>Oh, only if you go full anti-trick room on everything in your team :^)

Trick Room has always been a very strong force every single damn year of VGC for a damn reason. Next you'll say Weather teams are a meme too.

>>30260825
See
>>30259521
>>30260253

>>30260812
Status effects? It's either fini lele or bulu

>>30260757
The best Z-moves I've seen are used on boosters like gyarados who get +1 or +2 and use it to freely KO Celesteela. Status z-moves are overrated.

>>30260845
Having 1 taunt user is not "changing everything in your team" you fucking idiot. Show me the VGC champ, or even top 5, that had a TR team in it. Oh wait you can't.

TR beats everyone below your level of skill/preparedness. That's it. Everyone who is on an equal skill level who has adequately prepared will rekt you.

>>30260757
They are gems 2.0. If gems had use back in 2011/12/13 then of course they would have use here. Having a ready to go nuke at all times is very useful.

I feel bad for Mence. He'll never be able to rise up and drop his Z-Meteors with so much Tapu going around.

>>30260862
Fine uhhh

Oranguru is a trick room setter and instructer for memes with torkoal, exeggutor is a TR sweeper, raichu is to cover weaknesses and to use fake out. Marowak is to counter lele

>>30260867
I don't see status effects as being a large part of this meta. It's mostly damage moves on top of speed control.

>>30260943
Salamence is surprisingly bad this year. Every team that is opting for a dragon is using Garchomp instead because of the Ground STAB. Dragon is such a bad fucking STAB right now, literally worse than Bug STAB.

>>30260965
can u take a look at my team. here >>30259505
should i replace politoad or wishiwashi/kartana for a-exeggutor? Should he have a trick room set up set or a tr sweeper set? Should he even be considered as a replacement. Is the team already good? Maybe a ground or rock would be better?

>>30260965
>exeggutor is a TR sweeper,
wrong. exeggutor is a leech seed harvest sub protect memer.

I see pretty much everyone using pelipper over politoed, but what is the reason? it seems like toed has more options and better support movepool. is hurricane that great?

>>30261057
wrong, it's a total shitmon and shouldn't seriously be used outside of time stall strats.

>>30261125
wide guard
STAB hurricane
tailwind
u-turn

has a better support movepool overall. Politoed still has a small niche as a perish song user but Pelliper is better on 95% of teams.

>>30261125
U turn mostly

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>>30261026
>Garchompfag
>People told me he would be shit on 16 because Tapus
>He just runs Poison Jab now and keeps being a 10/10 mon like he's always been since day 1
>My face when

NO ONE CAN CONTROL THE CHOMP

HE JUST CHANGES TO CONTROL YOU

>>30261057
Honestly, A-Exeggutorr is terrible in Tapu Meta and even without that the set you mentioned is super terrible too.

http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/70-eggscelent-execution-2012-worlds-masters-finalist-team-analysis/

The only time he was ever good was back then in 12 when Wolfe carried him.

>>30261160
Don't forget Roost.

No Tutors hurt Politoed too. Can't run Icy Wind or Helping Hand.

Modest Primarina or timid Primarina?

>>30261227
Don't use Primarina.

>>30261134
On that note, would it be a viable strategy to keep exeggutor at the back, put perish song on something like A-marowak, and then wait for the enemy to have 2 pokemon and kill them with perish song? I know this has been a viable strategy in the past, but is it viable now?

A-exeggutor seems viable enough for this strat with ability to stall out pokemon easily with protect, leech seed, sub, 4x resistance to electric which is a very common attacking type this gen, and 4x resistance to water.

The main question is if the strat justifies dedicating 1 pokemon to it, when the pokemon is not very viable on its own without the use of perish song. the biggest problem I see actually is forcing marowak to replace 1 move with perish song, which it really doesn't want to do. It really needs that protect.

>>30261209
>the set you mentioned is super terrible too.
that's why it's a meme

>>30261237
primarina is surprisingly good dude. very bulky, fits the doubles format well. If the #11 team right now can use lilligant and win you can use fucking primarina who has access to a bunch of support moves and excellent typing.

>>30261302
Are you the kind of person who looked at Sejun's Pachirisu and figured that meant all shitmons were viable

How is Crobat as a taunt lead? Any good? What about Aerodactyl?

>>30261302
There's literally nothing Primarina can do that Fini does not do better. And Fini is pretty crappy already.

>Lilligant
She actually has a niche in this meta. Example: Super fast After You on Torkoal for super fast 100% hp Drought boosted Eruption.

>>30261372
>Crobat
Now that you mention him I'm surprised he's not being used more with all the Tapu around.

>>30261302
>If the #11 team right now can use lilligant and win
this is completely ignoring exactly why lilligant has a purpose and what you need to pair it with in order to make it viable, in this case torkoal with drought

primarina is pure and utter trash and you have zero reason to use it. kill yourself now while you still have the chance

>>30261372
I like aerodactyl. Sky drop has some nice utility.

>>30261302
All these responses denying this makes me sad because I managed to get a modest female Popplio with my first egg and really wanted to add it to my team.

What can learn taunt this gen that's legal in VGC? I need two more mons for my rain/elec terrain team.

So is Torkoal a good Pokemon to use or is it only there so set up Drought?

God, all the retards asking obvious shit is painful to see.

Can't wait until they fuck off and only the people who know shit and the ones who actually have real interesting on learning how to play are left. Fucking.

>>30261434
>Now that you mention him I'm surprised he's not being used more with all the Tapu around.
this is why your opinion is crap. you lack calcs. run some calcs on primarina and run some calcs on crobat. crobat fails to kill any of the tapus besides the one who is 4x weak to poison. is ohkoed back by most of them.

>>30261626
drought boosted eruption is very good especially when doubled by instruct and given priority in the turn by trick room, been said multiple times in the thread pls read. this is your last hand holding/

>>30261612
weavile?

>>30253055
What's the benefit for using Pelliper over Politoed? From what I can see, Politoed is faster, slightly bulkier, and has a better typing.

>>30261810
Fucking Christ man.

Am I the only person who reads the thread before posting something to see if someone already spoke about it or answered any question I was gonna post first?

>>30261810
literally read the thread. better support movepool, politoed got cucked by no tutors.

>>30261810
the only benefit pelliper has is tailwind support imo

>>30261612
persian, weavile, vanilluxe,, crobat, muk, gengar, gyara, absol, eviolite murkrow, froslass, whimsicott, krookodile, talonflame

That should more or less be the complete list of legal pokemon this year that learn taunt. Fair warning, i compiled the list by scrolling through all the pokemon that learn taunt and using my knowledge of the alolan dex (which I admittedly know very well) to make the list, I am drunk and could have left out something.

On that note, i'm surprised whimsicott is not being used by any teams right now on the showdown ladder, because whimsicott is such a goddamn good support pokemon

>>30261708
I don't think that would synergize on a rain team too well

>>30261899
and wide guard
and u-turn
and reliable recovery
and stab hurricane
and politoed lost all of the moves it had over pelliper didn't because lolnotutors

>>30261907
Oranguru gets taunt too, so does Comfey.

>>30261899
Watch some of the top ladder matches. One guy brought pelipper fully specced for special attack with a waterium Z and got key KOs on tanky pokemon with hydro pump z-move. he does a surprising amount of damage with it in the rain and the opponent doesn't expect it most of the time. 95 base SpA isn't "excellent" but it is nothing to sneeze at either, especially with rain boost and z-move attached to it. torkoal himself only has 85 SpA and became a meta dominating force due to the drought boost.

>>30261907
Prankster nerf kind of cucked whimsicott, there aren't a ton of dark types in the meta but Muk-A in particular makes it totally irrelevant.

>>30261907
Of all those, whimsicott might synergize the best, so my team right now is the typical core, celesteel and whimsicott

>>30261991
hmm ok then i guess this is my new team. Rate my team plz

Xurkitree
Tapu Koko
Oranguru
Pelipper
Marowak
kartana/a-exeggutor/wishiwashi (not sure what suits this slot best)

>>30261907
Salazzle, but prolly not good on rain

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2017-484118234

Normally I'd feel bad for him but man fuck eevee teams.

>>30262083
Holy shit fuck off already no one is gonna build your team

>>30262130
>Pumukyu+Aurora Veil on the same team
He didn't really think that one through

>gurgleflurb: U win due to freeze hax gg.
Delicious salt.

>>30262232
Shit, I didn't even think of the nonbo between those two. I'd switch them out but on their own their both doing really well, and I'd hate to take them out.

Is Celesteel even good on a rain/elec terrain team? I can't think of a better mon to use in its place

>>30262024
Good point. The one time Fairy typing was a bad thing. Poor whimsicott. it is so cool too.

>>30262282
In rain yes. in electric terrain, meh. it was most likely going to died to electric attacks anyway, almost everyone runs celesteela with a marowak anyway. the only thing that really sucks is discharge spam by enemies will do much more damage on electric terrain.

>>30262354
So if say, I ran it with Alolan Marowak, I'd be good? I'm already running A-muk though as a taunter and counter to tapus

>>30262282
Goes well with Garchomp too.

A generic rain team goes Pelipper/Koko/Marowak/Garchomp/Gyarados/Celesteela now.

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>>30262232
>>gurgleflurb: U win due to freeze hax gg.
Why do people play this game if they don't respect the hax? That's what I never understood about some of the fervent smogon crowd. I know not all smogon players are that way, but I know a majority are because klefki swagger got successfully banned to ubers because "you can just fill up your whole team with swagger foul play and then it's a coin flip game" (lol) despite exactly 0 of the top 500 teams being 6 swagger foul play cheese.

If you play pokemon, respect the hax man. It's a chance based game. It's like playing a card game. The hax make it fun exciting, sometimes hilarious. If you can't see the humor in losing due to 10% freeze chance on ice beam, then you need to play another game. Good players don't win specific matches, they win most matches over time. That's the nature of chance-based games. Even damage ranges that the smogon pros do highlight the chance-based nature of this shitty game. Basically, why don't they go play quake 3 arena or some shit that's totally static and highly competitive? Most of them seem much more on-level with games like that.

jolly or timid tapu koko? Whats the standard VGC17 koko looking like?

>>30262396
If you have celesteela I would consider A-Marowak instead of A-Muk, then bring another taunt user. That pair is pretty good because marowak absorbs lightning and also resists fire, and celesteela is immune to ground and resists rock. They are a good pair

>>30261227
tapu fini

>>30262589
>>30262434
Makes sense, I'd probably use Gyara, but I still really want to keep Raichu around for the fact that it can use fake out.

>>30262537
that really depends. wild charge is a great move, but if you go physical then you have no fairy STAB, and you also don't have access to a strong discharge. it really depends on what you want to do; do you want single target damage or more coverage and spread damage? there are merits to both. spread damage seems like the no-brainer, but there are some times when you would appreciate OHKOing a single pokemon before it could move instead. think hard about what your team needs

>>30262677
You don't NEED a taunt user on your team, but you need to account for the weakness. taunt is good against cheese-faggot strategies so just make sure you have a plan for those. I'd say anecdotally about 80% of gay cheese is based on a setup sweeper principle and that's why taunt stops it. however, reducing power of enemy moves with rain, misty terrain, or grassy terrain, combined with wasting turns through fake out or winning the speed game by using trick room or tailwind, can also achieve the desired effect of putting down cheese teams. you don't need a taunt user if you play well and have a good team design otherwise. every team has weaknesses.

>>30262789
WEll yeah, but I also don't want to just copy paste the team. If I'm gonna make a team I want to at least have some sort of unique trait

>>30262865
"Originality" for the sake of it won't be winning you any games lad. Stop trying so hard to be a special snowflake.

>>30261505
Most people here are sub 1000 shitter that have no results

its up to you to make a pokemon work

Anyone have suggestions for the last 2 mons?
http://pastebin.com/vhruCGJ9

>>30262865
What makes you unique is how well you play. Why don't you copy and paste until you reach 1,500 and you will see how hard it really is when you're a noob.

As a non-american, I don't understand this "american underdog" meme where all americans cheer for the guy who is using a shitmon. I don't think anyone else in the world does this. What do I care if the guy is using poliwrath or not? He didn't win worlds anyway, so I guess that shows the value of his strat. But you won't ever hear about the winners of the tournament if you talk to americans, you just hear about the guy who used poliwrath and electrode on his team, or the guy who used perish trapping on his team and isn't that so creative? Even if it didn't win, it's all you'll hear about if you talk to americans.

If you really want to be unique then honestly the best thing to do IS to copy and paste the top teams, play with them 50 games and see their weaknesses, feel firsthand what makes you uncomfortable in a match, feel firsthand what beats you without even trying, then go on and make your own team incorporating all of those anti-meta elements, or improving the copy-pasted team by compensating for weakness.

>>30262865
basically this >>30263106

if you want to know how to play unique, learn standard first. you aren't going to make any shitmon work without a very good understanding of the standard meta. This is why le epic pachirisu worked, not because pachi was good, but because it filled a very particular niche of follow me plus volt absorb that allowed park's gyarados to wreck.

>>30263040
What works best in doubles is to have a series of duo-cores that also synergize well with each other. Garchomp and Celesteela is a good duo-core so I like that already, but how could you make A-Marowak and Tapu Lele part of a duo-core? they lack synergy with the rest of your team. The only synergy is that Celesteela can switch in for Tapu Lele in emergencies, but the other way around isn't necessarily true. A-Marowak and Celesteela is another good duo-core so the flexibility based on that 1 pokemon (celesteela) is good, but try to find more.

My main suggestion right now is that you don't have a good grass move, don't have a good electric move, don't have a good way to kill CM Tapu Fini, don't have an answer to garchomp getting burned, and have low speed in general

r8 my memekyu

Lonely Mimikyu @ Rocky Helmet
228 Att / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- HP Fire
- Destiny Bond

EV:d to OHKO 4 HP Kartana 100% of the time.

http://pastebin.com/LHbfrbMf (embed)
Is this a good start? Where can I go with this?

>>30263285
Alright. Does anyone have a build for a general rain/elec terrain team then?

Do you need to worry about breeding for IVs anymore, or did the bottle cap thing get rid of that?

>>30263309
Nice feedback I like the insight you gave. I could swap out Lele for Koko for the Electric coverage and maybe add in A-Raichu since they pair well and add speed to the team albeit being a little weak to ground.

>>30263408
Just forget attacking with the goddamn thing and put those EVs into HP. You can keep your HP fire if you want to kill kartana but honestly kartana is fucking shit and not a dominating force in the meta anyway, so I don't see the point. you could accomplish the same level of "fuck you kartana" by bringing a simple will-o-wisp instead, which is also good against every other physical attacker besides arcanine, go full defensive support-mon, then you free up your slots for 2 new moves that aren't shit.

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>>30263106
>>30263285
This is commonly seen in Pokemon because there's a massive disconnect between the message the game gives and how competitive is. Everyone wants to see their favorite Pokemon do cool stuff but if your favorite Pokemon is an unsalvageable shitmon then you are shit out of luck if you wanna use it on competitive. Couple this with people who know jackshit on competitive but still wanna have an opinion on the matter and it's a shitfest of massive proportions. Just look at what happened with Pachirisu, anyone with half a brain knew how and why but most people were pic related.

Underdog beating the odds has been a popular thing since like forever, you see it in movies, tv series, anime, manga, books, etc. For example, rebellion formed by a rag-tag group of nobodies with good intentions and a pure heart fighting for liberty vs the super huge and all powerful evil corporation or empire who's controlling everyone and everything under their iron fist. A story where the main character finds difficulties in the way and manages to overcome them is usually more entertaining than one where the protagonists does everything without effort or worry. It's definitively a more usual thing with Americans but it's in no way an mentality exclusive to them.

>>30263408
>eving a pokmeon to deal with an utterly irrelevant pokemon not seen above 1300

??

>>30263475
it's an intentionally retarded set that synergizes extremely well to a team I'm running that needs to set up on the first turn and is weak to Pheromosa, Kartana (and fighting types in general) and Tapu Lele. Mimikyu works really well as a free switch-in and as something that can halt them for a two or three turns.

WoW is a good point though.

>>30263438
I like Lele I think it's one of the strongest pokemon ever in vggc`17 so I would keep it. Koko isn't as strong imo. One pokemon I'm not seeing a lot of is Specs, Scarf, or Life Orb jolteon and I think it has good potential in this metagame. It can do its job of offering strong fast single target focus and also it offers fast discharge spam which does a good amount of damage to Celesteela, tapu lele, tapu koko, and tapu fini. Shadow ball can hurt marowak pretty bad. Its only weakness is already covered by celesteela and it can also switch into electric attacks that are meant to focus celesteela. Xurkitree and tapu koko (even with wild charge) do 2HKO or 3HKO damage to jolteon with their electric attack

So is Power of Alchemy the preferred ability for Muk? Gluttony seems like it could be useful since Figy berry and all its relatives got buffed to heal 50% hp instead of 12%.

>>30263539
>Underdog beating the odds has been a popular thing since like forever, you see it in movies, tv series, anime, manga, books, etc

That's really what I meant. It seems like 50% of all american movie plots are based on le epik underdog beating le odds and winning the girl. Anime only copies this plot because it's prevalent in american culture and a large subsect of japanese people have been obsessed with american culture since 1980 (and vie versa I should add)

>>30263835
No, anime uses it because it makes for a good story.
Not everything is about america.

>>30263917
In the end it's all about execution.

An "underdog" who also keeps winning everything just because is also boring as fuck.

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is he viable?

>>30263993
Nope.

>>30263706
Why didn't you mention any of that in the post? Ofc I am going to call the set shit when it's out of context.

btw any gimmick that requires you to run a shitty set for it to work is always going to be a gimmick team that automatically wins against certain teams and automatically loses against other teams. If you're okay with that then gucci.

>>30263783
You answered your own question. Gluttony is a great ability (anybody who plays doubles knows the value of sitrus berry). Gluttony-Figy is a game changing strategy. Power of Alchemy requires specific prep to use to its fullest and the flow of battle may not allow your setup. It is very difficult to get your opponent to KO your pokemon at the specific time you want him to, and all (if i'm not mistaken) of the pokemon who learn explosion have an ability that's not worth copying.

>>30263993
Not even as a meme. The go-to ghosts are Trevenant/Marowak-A

Should I just ask what the core for a rain/electric terrain team is, and then try and make the mons myself? Or just netdeck it

>>30263993
Not even in trick room. Thank god, worst pokemon design I've seen.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2017-483593655
Is golisopod good in vgc? The enemy pokemon aren't the more commons

>>30263040
>http://pastebin.com/vhruCGJ9
intimidate could help you a lot. maybe gyarados or arcanine? I use arcanine with snarl/will-o-wisp/fire blast/morning sun(don't use morning sun that much, might switch for Espeed) and a rocky helmet, which helps a lot by outspeeding and punishing a-muk that threaten tapu-lele with gunk shot and marowak with knock off. especially for muk/bulu teams (which I use), as bulu can only really use rock slide against it, and with intimidate it won't like KO you.
wide guard would help you with A-ninetales along with basically everything else. good users are araquanid (deals decent damage with water bubble+scald/liquidation, high special defense, immune to burn), aerodactyl (unnerve and hide speed for finishes - is not affected by psychic terrain though), pelipper (helps with torkoal spam, chunks things with waterium-z hydro pump), and toxapex (bulkier araquanid weak to EQ)
a strong electric or grass-type would help. Xurkitree (with the right support) has thunderbolt and energy ball. Kartana is okay but I wouldn't use it unless you swap the sash on garchomp for something else. Tapu-Koko and Tapu-Bulu are good as well if you aren't strict about only having 1 terrain on the team.

>>30264121
For electric resistance I assume. What set is trevenant running? Meme-harvest or simple 3 attacks + protect, or sometimes a stray leech seed?

>>30263739
Oh Jolteon does sound really nice. I just ran some calcs and I'm liking some of the damage outputs it has I'm just not sure if I want to run Specs or LO

>>30263783
I like poison touch personally. The amount of times the extra push poison gave saved my ass is imeasurable. Plus then you can use black sludge protect to heal anyways

>>30264234
I want to say no right now, but I also want to say that his ability isn't being utilized to its fullest. On a double intimidate team you could see real potential I think.

I also think silvally has untapped potential, especially because it can be any type + it can swords dance and explosion

>>30264234
Not really, he's too predictable and has a hard time dealing with all of the electric shit flying around. He needs both TR and Lightningrod support to be good. He'd be great in triples/rotation but not in this meta.

>>30264285
Offensivr Trick room setter actually

>>30263610
You know that is very rare to see a UB in high ranks right? so why do you EVs to deal with that? Even that Kartana type is shit, and her stats aren't that good so...

>>30264285
Trev runs mostly as a TR setter immune to FO. Might be kind of a legacy mon since Oranguru is mostly better at it.

>>30264315
I would use specs because it gives more power. The only reason to use life orb is for variability of moves and most of the time if you're not using the move you wanted, it's because the opponent switched to a pokemon that walls jolteon anyway. Being able to change moves won't help much. The only exception is marowak and changing to shadow ball, but that's a pretty easy prediction, and if you're not sure of your prediction you can just go for discharge instead and get some likely damage on at least the field partner, but sometimes both pokemon. Or just shadow ball onto the electric-weak enemy slot because ghost is a great attacking type and there are no Darks in the top 30 common pokemon (besides krookodile). At worst you get free specs-shadow ball unresisted damage onto the switch in, at best you get free 2HKO on marowak.

>>30264412
Yes I do know that, that's why I ??'d that kid.

>>30263993
ground pokemon with no earthquake, you tell me

>>30264385
Wow, didn't know that faggot learns trick room

>>30263739
I think Jolteon is kind of irrelevant in a world with Koko and non-shadow ball variants are completely walled by Marowak-A. Lanturn is also a big issue.

Is gyarados mandatory on a rain/electric terrain team or could I swap it for raichu?

>>30264708
why would gyarados be mandatory on a team that makes 100% accurate 1.5x boosted Thunders a possibility?

>>30264791
So you can bait them and throw your trusty Marowak and make your opponent waste a turn.

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>>30255630
>not seeing that coming from a mile away and switching out to lighting rod marowak

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How do I run sun in gen 7?

>>30253476
i'm 1600+ on battle spot and have never seen a lanturn, anyone know why it's being used on showdown

>>30265019
volt absorb + scald support on specific teams

>>30265019
Does well vs rain, electric-spam and Torkoal and other favorites like Gyarados and Marowak too. Very anti-meta.

>>30264236
Not him, but thanks for giving that detailed response.

Is there a use for timid xurkitree or did i done fucked up by not catching modest?

In this meta, which one would you say is more valuable in this meta: reflect or light screen?

>>30265131
Marowak nearly kills it with bonemerang though.

>>30265241
Lanturn outspeeds but even then I don't think it kills with a single Scald.

>>30265001
With TR instruct spam and erupt the world unto oblivion

do you guys breed your mons or inject them

tell me some underused mons that somehow can see a use in a team in this meta, and which pokemon completely outclasses them

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http://pastebin.com/4U8ZyPkF

Rate team please, details and specific help requests in pastebin, all help welcome however

why is trevenant good and how do you use him?

>>30265019
because Rotom-W doesn't exist in this meta and it's the next best thing.

>>30265434
Decidueye, lanturn, and torkoal are probably the top of that list.

>>30265501
See
>>30264385

>>30265434
This makes no fucking sense. "Someone tell me a shitmon that is theoretically usable then tell me why people don't use it." Is that what you're saying?

>>30253476
Mimikyufags BTFO

>>30265392
Injection obviously. I'm no breedcuck and SR'ing for a good nature on legends is retarded.

Trying to make a team with Nihilego.

So far I have
Nihilego Timid life orb 252 spa 252 spe 4 hp
Tapu Bulu Calm Leftovers

>>30265588
an example would be "Scizor might be a decent pokemon and somehow could gain usage, but its completely outclassed by metagross or kartana because..."

>>30265641
add celesteela because poison fucks bulu
add rain support
add a taunter/trick room setter
and add something that hits hard like xurkitree

>>30265731
>3 UBs

you're setting this poor soul on a course straight for 1100.

>>30265766
then suggest a team yourself, unless your only purpose here is to shitpost :^)

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What's the best status condition nowadays, since both burn and paralyze got nerfed, and sleep doesn't work under electric terrain?

>>30266136
none, status shitters got nerfed to death and the meta will focus on passive aggro and statboost shitters

>>30266174
What the fuck is passive aggro in pokemon?

>>30266174
Why the fuck did status conditions get so nerfed? I don't even feel the need to bring lum berry on any sweepers now.

not only nerfs to the moves/statuses themselves, but also addition of FREE safeguard terrain. GF really hates statuses

>>30266353
i bet you are one of those faggots who played swagplay or slapped sableye on every team

>>30265474
>Pelipper
personally I think defensively-invested pelipper is better than offensively-invested pelipper, but that's an opinion thing I guess. the set itself is fine.
>Tapu Bulu
I think scarf would be a better option than band here if you're running specs lele. either way, drop nature's madness (you're doing more than 50% to everything except celesteela anyways) for rock slide to hit gyara/arc/torkoal and move those 4 sp.a evs into HP (if scarf, since you'll be putting 252 into speed instead of HP) or speed (to outspeed other bulu or tie with other 4-speed bulu)
>Lele
scarf it if you keep bulu CB, but specs is fine. I would drop focus blast for thunderbolt or energy ball because the only thing you're really hitting with focus blast that you can't with with thunderbolt is togedemaru. energy ball also synergizes well with bulu switch-ins (or with bulu sent in at the same time if bulu isn't scarfed)
>Celesteela
I haven't been able to use celesteela effectively enough to give an opinion here. Personally, I don't think it's that great because I never have to many problems with it, but that could also be because I've done a lot of work on building around it since it used to be a huge issue for my team.
>Marowak
standard, nothing to say. I like the choice to outspeed neutral muk.
>A-Muk
I run the same set but I like power of alchemy for the ability to reset terraiin/weather/LR for you (even beast boost can be okay). I use PoA because I'm running a lot of great abilities to steal (intimidate, terrain, water bubble). I saw in the thread something about figy-variants+gluttony because figy got boosted to 50% but I haven't tried it because I really like ability stealing. They're all really good abilities so if poison touch is your preference go for it - it's definitely the least predictable of the 3.
I'll give suggestions in my next post to you.

>>30266688
how do you run araquanid?

>>30266688
How do you run your Araquanid because I am trying to design a team around him. I want to run rain but doubling up on Electric weakness seems bad.

He is also pretty bad against all of the Tapu pokemon, xurkitree, and gyara. Wat do?

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Still the best screens user if I don't feel like running ninetales?

>>30265641
I almost got fucked by a tailwind nihilego once.
tail wind/rock slide/wide guard/filler unnerve aerodactyl is pretty hilarious. Talonflame is semi-usable but it's only alive for 1 or 2 turns at most. Pelipper is fine too, especially since rain benefits bulu. You could maybe get away with TW intimidate salamence, and I've seen someone use defiant braviary specifically for intimidate comps with TW. crobat seems like it would be pretty hilarious since it's faster than almost everything and has STAB poison but I guess it dies too easily to psychic and electric to be useful.
nihilego really needs wide guard or redirection to function, and redirection has next to no users this gen, so good fucking luck.

>>30266977
>crobat seems like it would be pretty hilarious since it's faster than almost everything and has STAB poiso
STAB poison doesn't matter when you fail to kill all of your targets anyway

>>30266977
I could do Nihilego, Pelliper, Tapu-Bulu, A-Marowak, Celesteel, and one more

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Can Fire Turtle be used outside of trick room?

>>30266977
>unnerve
is that even legal pre-bank?

>>30266688
>pelliper,
May go with a more defensive burd, as Im not really getting the kos i want with it.
>bulu,
I get what youbare going for here, but i really like knowing that my terrain is going to be set. Will pop natures madness for rockslide though, so will try without scarf for now, and test if the speed becomes tomuch of an issue.
>lele
Like this, going with eneegy ball.
>WAK
:^) has only bit me in the ass once, when I just switched the spread and faced a trick room team

>muk
Had poa, but i never got to use it effectivle except maybe once. Felt thatbir required tomuch reliance on my opponent doing something, wereas Poison touch will add an extra 12%damage 30% of the time, or more on gunk/poison jab.

Thanks again for even looking!

>>30267067
Kinda, with lilligent after me, but TR and instruct provides more consistant result

>>30267067
absolutely not. He's only good for drought eruption spam and without TR making him literally the fastest pokemon in the meta he can't maintain the HP to make that effective.

I mean I guess you could use something with follow me, but it's just way less efficient than TR.

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Why did gamefreak make fairies so goddamn good? Holy shit. They couldn't make them weak to some actually useful attack type such as Water or something? If they wanted to nerf dragons, they should have just buffed ice types to not be shit anymore.

>>30267067
Use it with another pokemon that requires focus such as a setup sweeper. Then no matter what your enemy chooses to attack, you will have a strong option either way. They either deal with a +2 pokemon or eat eruption spam for 50% on each pokemon.

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what's the scoop on this piece of shit and his signature move?

>>30267042
Or should I change anything?

>>30267250
absolute, irredeemable dogshit

literally bad torkoal.

Does Pollen Puff take type effectiveness into account when healing Allies? If my ally is weak to bug does it "super effectively" heal him?

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tapu lele psychic terrain boosted psychic ruins the metagame

BUFF DARK TYPES GAMEFREAK

>>30267394
dark types are immune to prankster

whats a good fairy poke this gen? Since my mawile isn't avail. No tapus

>>30267250
It gets shell smash, letting it go from being outsped by literally everything to still getting outsped by literally everything
Shell Trap really doesn't work in doubles.

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>>30267394
>Tapu Lele used moonblast!

>>30266795
>>30266874
Araquanid @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Water Bubble
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Wide Guard
- Scald
- Protect
I haven't done specific EVs yet so this is kinda general. I used Soak instead of Scald originally since I have 2 grass users and an electric user (and to remove stab), but it was kinda niche usage and intimidate comps were getting annoying. most rock-types moves are rock slide and I have enough sp.def that I can take Nihilego LO Power Gems pretty decently. wacan berry is mostly because I'm running sitrus on someone else but it's very helpful against xurkitree,wild charge arcanine and special koko.
>He is also pretty bad against all of the Tapu pokemon, xurkitree, and gyara. Wat do?
team support. A-Muk deals with all the tapu pretty well and is many times my go-to start with araquanid, who shields muk from EQ's and dazzling gleams. I have no other electric weaknesses on the team and plenty of things to deal with xurkitree so it isn't an issue also xurkitree is shit and I don't really encounter it at 1540 ELO. gyara is always a problem with me, but I outspeed +1speed defensive variants with scarf bulu and can rock slide to chunk it pretty well and still 2HKO after an intimidate, arcanine can outspeed and WoW defensive variants plus intimidate, and I have a discharge user that can 2HKO without fearing lightningrod (or really A-Muk in general).
every single pokemon is going to have issues and counters, but it's how you support and synergize that makes it usable. For example, people build entire teams around Celesteela, even though it's technically countered by prominent mons like A-Muk, Koko, Raichu, and Torkoal.
>>30267099
I'm assuming so since showdown allowed it, but maybe they just forgot to filter for it?

I keep forgetting to give suggestions on the original pastebin I was commenting on but I'll do that in a second

>>30253883
Too slow not enough bulk to be OU.

>>30267456
literally the tapus. Mimikyu is decent but VGC isn't really his ideal meta, Comfey is usable but strictly nothing special. Ninetails-A is only used because it's the least shit user of aurora veil. Old faeries are about as good as they were last gen.

What's the best rock slide user of vgc`17? I'd like to use swords dance on lycanroc-day but I don't think he is bulky enough for that.

>>30267645
garchomp and tapu bulu, i dont think daydog has usage this year

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Sandstorm is pretty much shit isn't it?
So sad about my baby excadrill not being in. He could murder these gayboi fairies and kill the electric spam.

If I ran sandstorm, which pokemon could abuse it?

>>30267645
>>30267687
Poor day pupper got a sweet new toy that everyone wanted, then his main prey was nerfed to oblivion, removing any need to use it ever

>>30253055
How are people running Torkoal?

>>30267753
still better than shitty zoroark with paludism aka nightroc

>>30267768
Read the fucking thread dude.

>>30267768
TR with Oranguru or, less popularly, with after you Liligant.

>>30267687
Don't forget Gigalith in TR.

>>30267730
Sandstorm is anti-weather in this meta. It's good with heavy hitters since it breaks sashes. You have to run Gigalith though and he gets rekt by wide guard.

>>30267730
Dugtrio is your guy. It can sweep weakened teams easily, just get rid of Celesteela, Gyarados, Pelipper.

http://pastebin.com/HQ8dv3G6

Rate My Team

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>>30254231
Tsareena also has a pseudo Intimidate, can U-Turn, and has access to Play Rough. She's got surprising bulk and can also Spin hazards away.

Tsareena @ Assault Vest
Queenly Majesty
Jolly 116 HP/142 Atk/252 Speed
~Trop Kick
~U-Turn
~Play Rough
~Rapid Spin

AV boosts her already solid bulk further while she weakens opponents with Trop. I think her with Bulu will be a solid, unexpected combo. Terrain will increase Trop damage and heal her every turn.

>>30267950
Surprising calc I just ran: A-Dugtrio actually SURVIVES psychic terrain-boosted psychic from tapu lele in the sand and OHKOs it with iron head.

Unless Lele runs Life Orb, then you just die, but still, surviving Lele's psychic in her terrain is pretty good when you have 35 base HP and 70 base SpDef

>>30265474
>>30266688
>>30267115
okay, finally getting around to this.
if you go with energy ball you're going to have HUGE problems with gyarados. every gyarados team runs a marowak or togedemaru (who you also struggle with). A-Persian might be able to meme on gyarados with an unexpected thunder with rain support from pelipper, but that's really reaching for a solution (though persian also does a lot of other cool shit with parting shot/etc. - I used it for a while and really liked it though it wasn't the best fit for my team). arcanine isn't the best option for gyarados but deals with togedemaru and supports muk by getting a key KO on marowak with knock off+snarl. I hear lanturn is good in rain and deals with both but I haven't actually battled lanturn at all so I can't say much on how to use it.porygon2 can trace intimidate or download for a potential sp.a boost and thunderbolt or discharge but it'll be a 2HKO and it can't hit marowak unless you use like shadow ball (don't). I don't like xurkitree but it works fine with your team. I originally had scarf xurkitree with volt switch/discharge/energy ball/dazzling gleam and wasn't a huge fan, but I also didn't really have the team to support it. scarf xurkitree is also not the best set and you're running scarf bulu so maybe do something else with it if you try it.
araquanid doesn't help with gyarados or togedemaru but may be a good choice for your team because it gives you wide guard, is rain boosted, has marowak for protection, and heals with bulu. toxapex could would as well because you have bulu for EQ+all that other stuff, but it gets fucked over by mudsdale and marowak (which, granted, are not huge issues for your team anyways) or surprise Tectonic Rages from Groundium-Z Garchomp.
>In short:
A-Persian, Arcanine, Lanturn, Porygon2, or Xurkitree if you don't need wide guard.
Toxapex or Araquanid if you do need wide guard.
Also I don't know is shadow is super good on lele, maybe do Tbolt with Eball?

I need some suggestions for the last 3 pokemon, also tips on how to improve the builds I already have for my first 3.

>>30267963
I feel like the last two do not go well with the rest of your team at all. If they are there for anti trick room, I would pick one or the other, as TR does really screw the first four. Also torkoal >eggtree if goong for instruct sweepers. Also, you have an offensive ser on a defensive pelliper, would swap hurricane for tailwind, and another prolly icebeam for uturn or roost

>>30268124
>hazards on doubles

>>30268256
what are your first 3?

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>>30268124
>Rapid spin
>I doubles

>>30268306
http://pastebin.com/xXanHb94

Sorry thought I posted.

>>30253476
WHERE IS MIMIKYU REEEEEEEEE

>>30268257
the egg tree is for kartana. This team gets sweeped by it if nothing checks it. Oranguru lets marowak and eggtree shine. I was going for an e terrain rain trick room team. Mostly trick room tho. The rain would help against torkal. I could swap eggtree for wishiwashi but again kartana would shit on the team.

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>>30268262
>>30268331
Then drop Spin for High Jump Kick. Fighting coverage is always nice.

I'm just worried about Toxic Spikes shenanigans with Toxapex, or other mons using it to support Tox.

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>>30268168
Oddly enough I havent really had any issue with gyrados due to bulu unless he get beaten down by multiple intimidates, which have been a issue on my team. Shadow ball on lele is for winning mirrors and catching marowaks of guard, or if muk is inavailable.
Tried porygon2, and replaced with celestree, to somewhat better sucess, but still mixed feelings over all. Lanturn may be the nichemon im looking for, but toxipeck and araquinid are interwsting as well. What set would be better for toxepek, defensive or merciless?

You are wonderful btw

>>30268555
>no protect

>>30268497
>>30268257
also in case i dont wanna bring oranguru i could run trick room on eggtree instead

Exeggutor-Alola @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Def / 164 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Protect
- Draco Meteor
- Leaf Storm
- Trick Room

>>30268625
Why the zeroes? Like, obvs you don't use the Atk stat but what does a specific 0 there accomplish?

>>30268257
tapukoko and x-mastree are more answers for wen trick room runs out.

What does a defensive Pelipper set look like? Wide-guard Roost Protect Tailwind???

>>30268497
Ah, that makes sense. Still kartana seems to be a meme currently and no one on the upper tiers are using it, but i gues that wouldnt atop aome random shitter from fugging you elo or swiss ranking. I think that trying to run TR rain and E terrain all at one is spreading your team to thin, and would be beat to pick one or two strat to go with. You could also drink the koolaid and swap pelliper for torkoal, negating all your issues in one swoop

>>30268695
slower speed in trick room means u go faster, zero attack in case of foul play

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What are the strong Grass moves I have to watch out for in this meta? Tapu Lele Energy Ball and obviously Bulu Woodhammer are the only ones I know. Is that it?

>>30268695
Minimum foul play damage. Used mostly on special offensive mons that would be heavily crippled by fould play, like Aeggs.

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best moves and nature for this guy?

>>30268772
Eggtree can ruff you up, and energy balls coming off xtree as well, even though not stab.

>>30268124
>"it has no support or boosting moves so I'm going to give it AV" meme
>rapid spin in doubles
>no HJK
please don't be stupid.
>>30267963
>pelipper without thunder on koko/xurkitree
>air balloon xurkitree
>exeggutor with instruct support running leaf storm AND draco meteor and not running power swap
you're killing me here. you're honestly better off swapping pelipper with torkoal (drought helps exeggutor harvest and marowak flare blitz) and running standard TR meme. you can keep exeggutor if you really want but it's holding you back.
>>30268351
Pelipper needs a water move - hurricane is only good for things that resist water. i like what you're trying to do with bulu but celesteela is a better leech seed user because it doesn't die to poison jab/gunk shot and muk is on literally every team. run bulu offensively, look at the thread for suggestions.
a-marowak or togedemaru for LR, toxapex/araquanid for wide guard support, last spot is a sweeper of your choice or celesteela if you're intent on leech seed (or celesteela can be offensive I guess but it's sub-par really).
>>30268573
merciless is a shitter trap. 63 attack isn't doing that much even with a crit and rain. toxic is a waste of a slot and most of the things hitting you for baneful bunker aren't contact. I firmly believe merciless will be usable next gen when they give it to something offensive, but right now it's trash except in LC, where I'm trying to make merciless maraenie work
>>30268695
reduced confusion/foul play damage, welcome to gen5.

I finally got a Xurkitree with modest nature and 31 spA and speed but it has hp dragon. What's a move I can use instead of hp ground or hp ice?

>>30268963
>Modest
I thought timid Xurk was better, isn't it's speed kinda shit?

>>30268864
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Scald
- U-turn

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Megahorn

How's this? I have no idea what sweeper I'd use either. I still think using Celesteel is good

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What is the maximum number of pokemon on your team that should be weak to a common attacking type such as Ground and Electric?

If you have Ground/Electric immunities is it okay to bring 2 pokemon that are weak to those types?

>>30269184
What's it going to outspeed with timid?

>>30268864
>>30268743
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe (enough speed to outspeed everything up to base 130 in twind.)
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Roost
- Scald
- Wide Guard

Xurkitree @ Air Balloon
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Protect
- Thunder
- Discharge
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Tapu Koko @ Focus Sash
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 4 Def / 68 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bonemerang
- Shadow Bone
- Protect
- Flare Blitz

I really dont wanna put in torkal or oranguru fuck

>>30269382
ah ment 2 change that air balloon to lifeorb and make him timid

>>30268963
dazzling gleam
>>30268772
>Common
Bulu, Lele, Kartana (depending on elo), Xurkitree, Lilligant with torkoal
>Uncommon
Decidueye, Gengar, Trevenant, A-Exeggutor
I also ran into a Dhelmise once that totally wrecked me with power whip but that literally doesn't happen more than once in your lifetime.
>>30269229
i would honestly drop roost for wide guard because you aren't fast enough to remove flying before most rock slide/discharge users would hit you and the team protection is worth losing out on recovery (especially with marowak or togedemaru so electric can't touch you). if you really want roost drop u-turn but I get why slow pivoting is good.
pick wood hammer or horn leech and drop the other one for rock slide. I would drop megahorn for zen headbutt to hit pheramosa since bug isn't that good in this meta.
try celesteela! it's definitely usable even if I can't figure it out lol.
>>30269237
there is no cookie-cutter answer to this. if you think you have enough pokemon that deal with EQ that it's worth the opportunity cost of having 2 EQ weak pokemon then do it. choosing 4 also makes this move of a difficult question because which 4 you bring out is super dependent on what they have.

>>30269382
Mind if I try your Pelipper build? I think it might help on my rain team.

>>30269382
>>30269425
id put in milotic but kartana again, I need checks to that thing.

>>30269460
go ahead, You got any checks in ur team for kartanas? a-marowak is not enough.

>>30269426
Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- Zen Headbutt

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
- Tailwind
- Wide Guard
- Scald
- U-turn

Trying the other guy's build. I like the idea of being able to just barely outspeed most things under tailwind.

>>30253476
Fighting is in its most garbage state ever. 8 of those top 24 are either resistant or immune to fighting type attacks, and only 4 are hit SE by it while 2 of those 4 are rare. Even the popular Steel types have a /Psychic or /Flying secondary type that makes fighting neutral.

It's a sad time to be a fighting type enthusiast

>>30269502
Uhhhh...Tapu-Bulu knows Superpower?

>>30269502
>a-marowak is not enough.
why not

What fucking Ice types are even good right now? What if I need an ice move to kill garchomp or A-exeggutor? What do I use?

>>30269700
>what is fairy for 500

>>30269382
pick 2 filler mons and test them out in a couple battles and see what's working and what doesn't. I can give you theoretical stuff to start off with but at some point you gotta just think critically about what's not working and WHY it isn't working.
I've given plenty of suggestions for pokemon that work in rain teams in the thread, look through and you should be able to find 2 things that work.
>>30269518
yeah I like the pelipper, see how you like it! not sure if bulu with max speed is the right option for the choice band though - maybe run just enough speed to outspeed everything in TW and put the rest in HP.
>>30269471
arcanine, garchomp (kinda), and celesteela deal with kartana.
>>30269589
kartana might run night slash and possibly darkinium-z.
>>30269566
smart strike OHKO's, don't be stupid.

>>30269700
i used weavile with icicle crash and it wasn't the worst thing in the world, but it gets rekt by koko. you could also use ninetales but you have to dedicate your focus sash slot to it. scarf fairy is your best option for garchomp unless you use like ice beam pory2

>>30269757
Should I change superpower then?

I know for sure I'm going to use Celesteel, but I have no idea what to use for the last two

Fuck I don't even have Moon version, how am I supposed to get Celesteel? I'm not hacking my DS

>>30270373
Ask someone in the injection general to help you out.

>>30270439
Wouldn't it get banned from tournaments?

>>30270457
No? It's impossible to tell the difference.