I'm trying to find counters for this VGC 2017 opening. I

Pyukumuku+Passimian

Can't you just use a slower tapu so your effect resolves last+priority user?

Pyukumuku + Pyukumuku

Telekinesis makes the target levitate, removing its ability to benefit from terrain.

>>30195954
..how is that a counter? Passimian gets butt fucked by Psychic, is slower than Tapu Lele, and doesn't return a KO onto Tapu Lele. Doesn't even manage 81%.

Pyukumuku just stands around doing nothing until his whole team dies.

That is definitely not a counter.

>>30195920
Celesteela

Would Talonflame work? I know it got nerfed, and I don't know if Psychic Terrain blocks Gale Wings, but it's a thought.

>>30196173
Fine, how about Pyukumuku+Passimian?

>>30196231
Hmm that is one interesting thought. Yes I believe that will work. Thank you sir.

>>30196192
Dies before it can move due to HJK + thunderbolt.

>>30196205

Psychic Terrain does block Gale Wings.

>>30196331
Ah alright, well nevermind then.

>>30196160
And with what time do you have to set that up while a base 151 speed pokemon attacks you with 137 special attack?

>>30196205
Pair it with Bulu or Fini to negate Psychic Terrain. They're both slower than Lele.

>>30196205
>>30196331
Psychic Terrain doesn't "block" Gale Wings.

Psychic Terrain protects all ground-bound pokemon from priority. Meaning if Smogonbirb went brave on a levitating/flying/ballooning mon it would still hit. In addition, even if the attacker is groundbound, all Psychic Terrain affects is the target.

>>30196173
Ghostium Z Destiny Bond? Redirects all enemy damage onto user like storm drain.

>>30195920
Aegislash? It's catchable via island scan so it should be legal

talonflame bulu

bulu removes anti brave field
bird does it bravest to insta kill bug waifu

Lead with Tabu Bulu and Talonflame.

>>30196408
Aegislash would be the one thing that could counter this, but alas it is not legal in VGC`17. Island Scan pokemon are not legal.

Bulu and Fini are both slower than Lele so their terrains override Psychic Terrain. Pheromosa dies to anything super effective so pair them with that.

>>30195920
Lunala can threaten them both and has STABs that nail each of them. Also it can roost to restore Shadow Shield, and Shadow Shield can't be broken by Mold Breaker and its clones.

>>30196463
Lunala is not legal in VGC lmao

>>30196441
>Island Scan pokemon are not legal.

Every time I think VGC can't get more stupid, it does.

>>30195920
bring a slower tapu

>>30196481
then fuck it

why even bother with this stupid meta with 8 usable pokemon

say what you will about smogon and it's meme meta but at least it's only the land genie of muhmentum that's on every team as opposed to every team being fucking identical

do something with gengar or mega gengar i guess

>>30196541
>>30196513
Wew

>>>>>VGC

>>30196419
>The Terrain became Grassy!
>Talonflame used Brave Bird!
>It's Super Effective!
>Pheromosa fainted!
>Tapu Lele used Thunderbolt!
>It's Super Effective!
>Talonflame fainted!

You're still trading.
Bulu can pick up the kill with Wood Hammer, but you still lost 1 pokemon. Not very good for a specifically-designed counter, which is why I asked here. All of the specifically-designed counters I can come up with always lose 1 pokemon in the process of killing. There seems to be no escaping from this opening scott-free. You're also forced to use Talonflame, a nerfed-mon, and Tapu Bulu, a niche-mon that dictates your team design.

>>30196541
Dude the answers been posted multiple times bring a different tapu or bulky guys that can survive a hit from either individually and kill phero in one hit with the survivor.

>>30196408

It isn't technically in the Alolan dex, is it?

>>30195920
Golisopod
Just use leech life on tapu lele and anything else on pheromosa and they're fucked

>>30196641
None of the island scan pokemon are in the Alola dex. I can understand banning Aegi since it's an overpowered piece of shit, but blanket banning all of them is retarded.

>t.butthurt scolipede fan

>>30196617
If you trade 1:1 and you get a free move with bulu you won the trade, almost no Pokemon can survive being focused in doubles.

>>30196628
It's just really gay because this is meta-centralizing. I want to run Trick Room or a team based on Gravity that uses low accuracy moves like Hydro Pump and Hypnosis, but there is no fucking time to set up either of those moves if someone happens to bring a high offense opening like this. I guess I could try to set it up later, but what if the opponent's back 2 'mons are also a hyper offense combination?

>>30196687
how the fuck is that shitmon going to live long enough to use leech life on anything

>>30196687
Wouldn't it just get outspeed and get killed or emergency exit?

>>30196513
They always want the first one of a new gen to be strictly regional dex only

>>30196617
Switch to A-Marowak then.

>>30196687
It gets it shit kicked in by Lele and is forced to switch out

>>30196737
>140 Defense
>90 Special Defense without assault vest
How hard is it to think for you?
>>30196749
Not with the right set and partner it won't

Scarfed Xurkitree + Queenly Majesty Tsareena

The answer is bring your own faster Pheremosa

>>30196853
pretty much

here's a counter: don't play a shitty format like vgc

>>30196784
Then name the set and partner

>>30196322
It's called Protect, use it.

Can clefable survive hits from them? Could use follow me since they're both single target Pokemon.

>>30196877
Dies next turn. Wew lad.

>>30196853
What if they're both the same max speed? We gonna have RNG bullshit again?

>>30196886
No it will die.

>Doubles
>Counters

>>30196907
Most probably won't run jolly 252, unless everyone wants to counter the other ones, in which case I guess you could scarf it.

>>30196934
What if phero is intimidated by a Salamance for clefable+salamence lead?

>>30196907
You can play that way if you want to, but you can avoid that by bringing Tapu Bulu or Tapu Fini. Those are the only ways to beat this opening.

The only other way that I see is to bring A-Muk + a choice scarf user that outspeeds Pheromosa. Muk can tank any hit from Lele and kill it with gunk shot, but if the enemy is smart they will use Tapu Lele to kill the Choice Scarf user. At best it's a 1 for 2 which is still good for you, but also involves losing your Choice Scarf user which can be a critical loss based on enemy team composition

>>30196984
Phermosa has access to Ice Beam dude. Salamence is DEFINITELY not a counter

>>30196984
Physical Pheromosa will be nonexistent in Doubles due to HJK being impossible to use (Protect spam in Doubles).

Special Pheromosa will be the only usable variant. She does not learn close combat. I guess it would be technically possible to run brick break but that is pretty underwhelming as a fighting STAB.

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Tapu Bulu + Scizor

Scizor buttfucks both of them while also being capable of taking anything they can throw at him

Bulu offsetting the terrain so that you can bullet the Roach is just the cherry on top of the cake

>>30196800
Is Tsareena good?

>>30197037
She gets focus miss though

>>30196398

Good thing Pheromosa will be none of those things as it destroys Talonflame.

>>30197046
Except Psychic Terrain prevents the use of Bullet Punch you stupid idiot

>>30197061
She would if she weren't mono-grass.

>>30197062
That's why I say special variant will be the only pheromosa you see in doubles. Because Focus Blast/Bug Buzz is just much better STAB power than Lunge/Brick Break. Special Pheromosa can still run Poison Jab with minimal EV investment to kill enemy Tapus, so there's really no reason to run physical-invested Pheromosa.

>>30197102
Hence Tapu Bulu

>>30197102
Bulu is slower so his terrain will overwrite psychic terrain

>>30197102
Can't you read you retarded fuckmunch? What do you think the Tapu Bulu is for?

>>30197102
Does any know how Terrain setting works, because I want to call you a fucking moron for not understanding that Grass Terrain would be setup after Psychic Terrain since Bulu is slower, but I'm no 100% on it. I'm like, 80% sure, but I need confirmation

>>30197102
The terrain will be grassy.

Mega Scizor deals with both of them. Put a Pelipper in the front to discourage HP Fire and during the attacking turn hard-switch in another Tapu to cancel out Psychic Terrain at the last minute.

>>30197148
>mega
>vgc

>>30197153
Right, Banded or LO probably does the same in terms of pulling kills then.

>>30197148
>Mega

>>30196413
There is nothing stopping Pheromosa from simply switching out. Talonflame loses HP against the Celesteela that comes in to tank the hit, then no longer has Gale Wings. Pheromosa comes in later and will be able to kill someone on your side before talonflame can kill it

I wonder how VGC 2018's gonna turn out if they allow every Pokemon again.

>>30195920
Aegislash+A Tapu that isn't Tapu Lele.

>>30197198
Same primal groudon shenanigans. There's simply nothing better.

>>30197198
Same shit as before

>>30195920
How about Alolan muk? Or sabeleye?

>>30197235
Aegislash is not legal :)

>>30195920
Scaft Best Bird (Staraptor) + Nihiego or anything that can at least 2KO LeL,good luck.

I'm using my Nihilego-chan with a Focus Sash.

>>30197264
A-Muk does well enough as mentioned here >>30196992, but like I said, the choice scarf user that you bring will die to Tapu Lele's monster special attacks.

>>30197271
Staraptor is not legal in vgc 17.

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>People though that Garchomp would be shit on Tapus - The Meta
>He just adapted and runs Poison Jab now
CAN'T STOP THE KING

>>30197197
>There is nothing stopping Pheromosa from simply switching out.
If you are gonna pull that card then the discussion becomes meaningless as I can also said that I read your switch and also switched out my Talonflame for something to kill your newly switched-in Celesteela and repeat forever. It's pointless to discuss that way.

OP specifically asked for a counter for that specific opening and bringing in Talonflame as your opener alongside Bulu is indeed a counter to that opening as it threatens the roach with his Brave Bird and even in the case of a KO exchange Bulu KOs back with Wood Hammer so ultimately you win it as you lost one piece while your opponent lost two.

>>30197271
Nihilego dies in I assume a OHKO to psychic terrain boosted psychic. Also does not threaten anything to Lele because of Lele's huge special defense stat and Nihilego being exclusively Special attacker. Also Staraptor is banned.

1/10 apply yourself

Gigalith+Lycanroc midday
Lycanroc can then outspeed and 1 shot thanks to sand rush

>>30197197
Wtf do you want dude a magical opening that instantly removes all threats from the opposing team with no possible counter play? This is stupid that doesn't exist in any format.

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>>30197395
The point is that all of these specifically-designed counters assume that both teams are on the field in a neutral setting. What if the enemy brings a different high-tempo opening that requires a specific counter? What if you prepare for that opening and then the enemy just brings Tapu Lele + Pheromosa instead? You simply lose automatically.

Even if you assume the best of best worlds for yourself as the person facing against this opening, you still lose 1 pokemon in every situation or have to specifically design your team around a weather-terrain condition, which stymies creativity.

A-Ninetales + A-Sandlash

Allowing Tapus and Ultra Beasts was a fucking mistake.

>>30197445
Not a terrible opening but Tapu Lele will indeed kill Lycanroc. Gigalith hits hard with Iron Head but does not kill Tapu Lele. In the end you have a full HP gigalith on the field and the enemy has a low HP Tapu Lele. Not bad at all.

The bad part is that you are running a sand team lol.

>>30197197
You could run another flying move that's not brave bird alongside it, anything will instakill pheromosa.

>>30197492
>The point is that all of these specifically-designed counters assume that both teams are on the field in a neutral setting.
Well, no shit. We are specifically theorymonning this one specific situation without taking into account any other external variant for a reason. As I said, it would become an endless argument.

>or have to specifically design your team around a weather-terrain condition, which stymies creativity.
Welcome to every meta ever, whatever is popular will become countered by people who don't wanna lose to that something. Example, Mega Mom in VGC14 who become countered so hard bringing her in would be a detriment rather than a benefit despite how good she was.

>>30197569
>Iron Head
>Not Heavy Slam
Shit nigga what are you doing

>>30197492
Are you asking for solutions or just here to bitch about pheromosa? Any time you're given a solution you present some hypothetical move your opponent can make that wasn't initially suggested or whine that one of your guys die and you "only" get a free move in a fast paced format.

>>30197615
Every "solution" I'm given is "design your entire team around Tapu Bulu." Wow such great solutions.

>>30197562
Ultra beasts are okay, it's Tapu faggotism that needs to die

>>30197652
>Give me a counter
>Here's a counter
>N-Not that one

Go choke on a dick you goalposting moving faggot

Any way to salvage a naive Tapu Koko for VGC?

Alolan Marowak paired with Tapu Bulu. Tapu Bulu eliminates psychic terrain so Alolan marowak cant be OHKOd by tapu lele. Alolan marowak OHKOs Pheromosa and you just protect first turn with Tapu Bulu.

>>30197687
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm making a point about how centralized the meta is due to Tapus being allowed. Every team will need to run one.

>>30197709
It's not the best nature but it's alright I guess. If you scarfed it nothing will outspeed.

>>30197709
If you're serious about VGC you need to min max everything, otherwise your Pokemon simply won't be competitive, a naive nature really isn't very good competitively.

>>30197751
Ok but the tapus aren't banned and every team is going to run one. You can play around it, lose, or not play VGC.

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Do the Tapus benefit from their own shit? I assume so but they all float which makes the ground bound shit confusing.

Pinsir and Bulu

>>30197751
>I'm making a point about how centralized the meta is due to Tapus being allowed.
Every Pokemon meta is always centralized. Who gives a shit? This is nothing new.

Besides, that would only be in the hypothetical case that Lele+Roach becomes the new P-Groudon+Xerneas or KhanArtist which so far hasn't been the case at all so I'm not sure what you are being a drama queen about.

Since we are talking about VGC, might as well ask for advice. I am making a team and so far, I have Bulu, Scyther, Celesteela, Pelipper and Garchomp. No clue what to use for the sixth spot. But how does this look so far in terms of pokemon?

>>30197815
The actual sprite doesn't matter. Flying types and pokes with levitate don't benefit, everything else does. (Plus there's magnet rise and other moves that can make you no longer considered to be on the ground)

What was GF thinking

>>30197856
I'd like to ask what the hell are you doing there because I don't see what's the purpose of Bulu and Scyther there. You have pretty much a rain team there but no Koko at all. Explain yourself.

Pdon + Specs Chlorophyll Venusaur/Victreebel maybe?

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>>30197890
>GF
>Thinking

>>30197856
I love Scyther to pieces, but what exactly is it there for?

I'm pretty sure roach is going to get banned. She's a slightly worse deoxys in terms of stats and lmao priority was nerfed hard so glass cannons became much stronger.

>>30197894
Bulu is there to remove opposing Tapu terrain and Scizor is a pretty good attacker who can kill the other Tapus. I was also thinking about using Koko and A-Raichu instead.

>>30197920
We're talking about VGC.

The only thing that comes to mind is drapion who can take a hit from either one and ohko both with an adamant poison jab. Dont know if it's legal though.
Maybe Alolan muk? Dont know the calcs

>>30197896
I don't know what a Pdon is but Venusaur is banned so you're already off to a bad start

>>30197964
Not legal.

A-muk is the only thing that comes close but his field partner will almost always die.

>>30195920
Redirection + Trick Room or just a strong attack. Both Lele and Pheremosa are relatively fast so both are vulnerable to Trick Room, but more importantly, Lele's strongest moves are single target and all of Pheremosa's are too. So redirection helps quite a lot.

If you're not running trick room, don't lead with Tapu Bulu or Tapu Koko and just switch in one of those and threaten Pheremosa with priority (or just go for a fake out).

Or just lead Politoed/Pelliper + Swift Swim Mon or Sandslash+Ninetales or something - Sandslash can outspeed and ohko pheremosa and do a lot to Lele with iron head (obviously not ohko if pheremosa has a focus sash but like, hail will ko it and pheremosa won't be as strong without one).

>>30197941
>Scizor
You said Scyther up there m8. Scizor is a perfect fit though.

Koko is borderline obligatory but I'm not too keen on A-Raichu. I never expected that combi to be very successful from what I've seen I was proven right.

I'd pack something who can throw some water moves to take advantage of the rain. Maybe Gyarados for Intimidate support or even Fini so you can control the terrain even harder and spam Muddy Water under the rain.

>>30196687
>Just use leech life on tapu lele
it's a neutral hit, fairy resists bug

>>30197890
UB and Tapus put together are fucked, gonna be another legendary dominated meta

>>30198014
This is the only good answer in the entire thread.

>>30198014
What are the redirectors? All the good ones got banned.

I'm seeing Parasect, Clefairy, and Clefable right now. Is that it?

All of those will die in the first turn against that duo but at least TR will come up. Should b ez after that.

>>30198041
>You said Scyther up there m8
Fuck, did not realize that. Gyarados is a good idea though.

>>30197511
>HP Fire was super effective!

>>30198099
>Clefable
>Not good

Are you serious m8?

You are also forgetting motherfucking Eviolite Clefairy.

>>30198108
Gyarados will be strong due to being one of the best intimidate users this gen. Unfortunately most of the top threats are special attackers.

>>30197794
I was going for min/max but couldn't decide between physical or special, I just decided that since its made of glass that defense won't make an overwhelming difference if the other tikis are going to one shot it regardless

Calesteela walls Tapu Lele and Pheromosa HARD

HARD

>>30197671
Based Topus, Ultra Beasts need to fuck off. Pretending Pheremosa isn't a problem is just faggotry.

>>30198008
that's not such a bad thing - muk's ability is power of alchemy, and it will receive the ability of any KO'd ally

What would some potential partners be who continue to provide aid after they are KO'd?

>>30197369
the fuck? is it alolan dex only or anything you can catch in alola?

>>30198239
Alolan dex

>>30198138
I didn't forget clefairy at all. Read my post again. Just said he's gonna die to this opening but that's actually a good thing because you can bring in your TR sweeper right away

>>30198238
Definitely Passimian

>>30198246
Are you sure its not in the Alolan dex? you can grab them pretty much anywhere on poni island

>>30198187
why is celesteela so perfect
this pokemon can do everything but recover

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grab a gigalith + life orb/c-band and drop an explosion on them

activate the ultimate sacrifice
bonus points if paired with a ghost or someone using protect on open

>>30198268
its island scan

>>30198257
>I didn't forget clefairy at all. Read my post again.
Ah, my mistake. I somehow missed that part from your post.

>>30198187
..Thunderbolt + focus blast kills it dude.

Focus blast alone does 87% with life orb. Lmfao.

Nice "hard walling" fuckstick

>>30198238
Moody smeargle with follow me and minimize on Muk, then prayer.

>>30198260
that's funny

im running tapu lele and pheromosa

they are a greaat duo, and im doing banded Pheromosa only to OHKO with hjk things like tapu koko

But lele is not bulky and pheromosa will die for anything that can take a hit, included poison jab deciudeye

>>30198238
Clefairy has the best ability in the game for doubles

Trick Room teams.

Assuming pokemon aren't levelled upwards, you can do something cheeky like Solosis with Focus Sash and Endeavor backed up by Hail.

>>30198291
>Celesteela used protect

>>30198330
>Assuming pokemon aren't levelled upwards
They are now.

>>30198330
>Phermosa use Speed Swap.

>>30198291
>mfw I run weakness policy celesteela
>acrobatics

>>30198315
>with hjk
how do you like that protect bro

>>30198291
actually lele cant take 1 heavy slam so... pheromosa is not a big deal for calesteela
and pheromosa is always scarfed/banded/whatever, and calesteela always can protect her way to counter

>>30198358
>pheromosa going last and surviving

>>30198300
>>30198325
these are both good ideas, I might try em out on showdown

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>>30198338
>"HARD WALLS THEM DUDE"

>uhh actually it nearly dies to just one of them attacking with a neutral hit

>"OBVIOUSLY I MEANT WITH A MOVE THAT MAKES YOU INVINCIBLE FOR 1 TURN! THAT IS SOME HARD ASS WALLING FOR THAT 1 TURN DUDE!"

>uhh sure dude okay

>>30197102
Oh ffs dude, read a fucking book

>>30198367
Can't even tell what you are saying.

>>30198362
.. Focus blast is a neutral hit and won't activate weakness policy, weakness policy SpA boost is not needed to kill Pheromosa with acrobatics anyway, and both of these pokemon outspeed celesteela and she will be dead before she gets to move..

are you high?

>>30198315
Lele is not bulky? Lele can tank a STAB sludge bomb from Salazzle unless the Salazzle is Modest with choice specs.

>>30198469
I usually use autotomize on the turn she's hit
you seriously mentioned a non-stab, supereffective move in your post
weakness policy boosts both offenses and acrobatics is physical

>>30198518
You do realize Celesteela is a flying type, right?

>>30198358
And you get to use that when exactly? After TR is up you just die. You can't even really predict focus fire and protect on her because it only takes 1 enemy pokemon to kill pheromosa by itself. Even if you predict the attack and protect, the enemy's other pokemon gets a free move onto pheromosa's field partner. And if it's a TR pokemon, it's likely going to kill.

>>30198400
You do realise an uninvested heavy slam ohkos Lele and if you add a small amount of EVs into attack you get an ohko on pheromosa while it can live any combination of special hits from both of them including a thunderbolt+hjk with the roll hugely in your favour, even if the pheromosa is physical, it's highest bp moves does around 54% on a high roll and thats with hp investment on celesteela only. Even then you can easily just protect the hits to bait. This isn't singles anon, you'll have a pair pokemon alongside it and even then celesteela can easily take either one on

>>30198547
yeah, of course, i'm not talking about focus blast obviously

>>30198518
Yes, I mentioned thunderbolt. And when it hits Celesteela she will be dead due to the Focus Blast from Pheromosa doing fucking 90% damage to her previously. Both pokemon outspeed Celesteela. Forget it man Celesteela is not a counter to this duo. It's a good pokemon but has nothing to say about these 2.

>>30198599
Meant to say it does 54% uninvested, hjk is incredibly risky in doubles though. Youd want to run specially defensive Celesteela

>>30198599
What the fuck is your math dude? Are you making sure to put a Life orb and change the nature of Pheromosa? Focus Blast does 70% to Celesteela even with a nearly full investment in SpecD.

>>30198627
It might not be a counter but its a great check, Celesteela can ohko both of them and works as a great bait that can live any combo of their special hits with investment, you only need a few attack evs to kill either one

Mimikyu support set with trick room

>>30197141
Well if it works like weather then yes.

>>30198627
I don't know I was just offering my experience in the matter
of course there are circumstances where it fails but this is doubles and celesteela isn't in a vacuum
sorry

>>30198733
That's not true at all. Focus Blast + Thunderbolt always kills no matter what you do on Celesteela, barring Assault Vest on Celesteela. But then you don't have access to Celesteela's best moves.

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vgc is broken mess of a metagame
competitive pokemon is a joke

>>30198739
Hm Mimikyu interesting. Would be a hard TR setter to stop. It's basically guaranteed TR if you use a clefairy with it who Follows Me.

>>30198723
Wot? What are you even using
252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 208-246 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thats also modest.
This is modest specs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 240-283 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>inb4 "max sped celesteela"
Its the most efficient spread that still gets the kill on both

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>>30198794
And the single player game is a shitty mess with a gay story and easy enough for 8 year olds to beat.

And the battle tree is a broken mess that cheats against you.

So why do you play pokemon again?

>>30198793
Doesnt really matter when heavy slam kills both which is the reason you're using it

>>30198739
i was thinking this as well, synergizes really well with Drampa's typing, who can sap sipper/cloud nine to counter spore/weather. It'll prolly handle rain teams quite nicely.

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>>30198887
fape and meme

>>30198874
why would you use a special defense wall that has a fire and electric weakness.

I see everyone talking about Celesteela. What's a good set up for her?

>>30195920
ferrothorn or venu or some other bulker. get some bulk nigga

>>30199085
Autotomize / Leech Seed / Substitute
Heavy Slam
Earthquake
Stone Edge

>>30199085
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Autotomize
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

or

It's just such a great glue for bulky offense.
A set of
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Impish, 252 HP/56 Def/200 SDef
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Seed Bomb
- Leech Seed/Fire Blast

>>30199134
>ferrothorn
not legal
>venu
not legal
>amoongus
not legal

>>30198793
Heres a useful spread
252 HP/24 Atk/232sped with assault vest
Heavy slam/fire blast/insert move/insert move

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 158-186 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+
>252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 163-193 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is calc'd with modest specs to show their maximum damage output

Heavy slam ohkos pheromosa 100% of the time after life orb and tapu lele with any item

>>30195920
literally my mom's ghost type
literally my mom's fairy type
literally my mom's poison type

>>30199174
fuhgeddaboutit, ubs will be banned soon anyway

>>30199181
Good

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>>30199190
you are literally the worst kind of poster

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>>30199260
>VGC banning non-mythicals

>>30199190
Your mom's ghost type dies to Tapu Lele Shadow Ball

Your mom's Fairy type dies to psychic-terrain boosted psychic + anything form Pheromosa

Your mom's poison type dies 5 times over from psychic-terrain boosted psychic

try again monkey

>>30195920
Scarf/Sash Alakazam + a steel type

>>30199365
how are both of these mons running every possible coverage move at the same time??????????

>>30199471
It's not hard to run Psychic, Moonblast, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball. That's the normal Lele set you retard faggot. The only "weird coverage move wooah" is shadow ball, which is not fucking weird at all, actually.

The only 2 instances are Lele using her fucking STAB. You expect her not to bring that on a normal day? God damn you are a fucking idiot.

>>30196617
You forgot Bulu's turn, you trade 2 kills for 1 which is favorable as you still have a hard hitting Bulu.

>>30199471
>shadow ball and psychic on lele

>poison jab on pheromosa

WOW HOW CAN THEY HAVE SO MUCH COVERAGE?????

>>30199602
Literally I didn't forget Bulu's turn at all, because I describe Bulu's turn in depth. Maybe read.

>>30199075
Because it eats any hit up, 97/103/101 are phenominal and it can retaliate with an eq or heavy slam. The assault vest set also looks good allowing it to survive 2 life orbed thunderbolts from Tapu koko while 2hkoing with eq or heavy slam.
Just to show you the power of AV celesteela
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 234-276 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also just to meme
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunder vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 356-422 (89.4 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

>>30195920
Mimikyu use Playrough. Pheri ded.
Mimikyu Destiny Bond Z move next turn.
1 for 2 ayy.

>>30199834
why is mimikyu so godlike

>>30199834
>Mimikyu use Playrough. Pheri ded.
In what world is Mimikyu going to outspeed Pheromosa

>>30200009
after it hits a free hit up for dinner

>>30200009
The world where he has Disguise up you dumb fuck

>>30200049
*eats

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>>30195920
How common is Timid Tapu Lele going to be?

What nature will be the most common? It could run a +Spe, +SpA, or even +Def nature.

>>30200055
>Pheromosa used Lunge!
>Mimikyu's Disguise was busted!
>Tapu Lele used Shadow Ball!
>It's super-effective!
>Mimikyu fainted!

>>30200104
MIMIKYU OUTSPEEDS TAPU LELE DUMB FUCK

DOES YOUR MOM LET YOU POST THIS GARBAGE ONLINE?

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>>30200144
>Choice Scarf

>>30200104
Isn't mimikyu gonna go before lele?
Even then, Phero will be killed by the partner mon since mimikyu got doubled up on

If you're really cheeky you can protect on mimi and kill Phero for free


...I think I need to train a mimikyu

>>30200168
>locking yourself into a move with an immunity
Thanks for the free switch in

>>30196119
Exactly. Bulu is the king lead Tapu.

>>30200260
thanks for the free "pheromosa is still alive idiot"

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>>30200168
>Implying a scarfed shadow ball will kill
Life orbed Mimikyu ohkos with shadow claw

>>30200278
Thanks for the free pheromosa double target

>>30200278
>killed by the other mon due to double targeting mimikyu

Bulu + Comfey
enjoy that +3 priority Draining Kiss :^)

Follow your dreams.
252+ Atk Galvanize Alolan Golem Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 390-460 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Galvanize Alolan Golem Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Pheromosa: 562-663 (162.4 - 191.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

>>30198014
>Swift Swim
Where?

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>>30198887
Why are we here

>>30200524
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Golem-Alola: 460-541 (126.3 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

>>30200524
>run this with Mimi for maximum fun

>>30200524
>Pheromosa used High Jump Kick!

>>30200510
Literally, unironically, this.

>>30200524
lMFAO

>>30200756
Wouldn't a follow me just help it out or a TR set up?
Or a Protect first turn then the partner can do some "damage" on first turn while the opponent is distracted.

>>30200524
What's up man, how do you get the Alolan forms on the nugget bridge calculator?

I type in Golem but it only finds normal Golem.

>>30200829
https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

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>>30195920

>>30200842
>Raticate used Sucker Punch
>Psychic Terrain
>But it failed!

What was your plan?

>>30200510
Wow actually works. Good job anon.

>>30200842
>Pheromosa used triple kick

>>30200860
>>30200900
>IMPLYING

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>>30198887
>tfw want to breed a team to use against friends.
>Have to wait until January to transfer my good parents/Destiny knot or farm against Cheating AI

>>30196800
Not using HA Tsareena in doubles...

>>30198887
For Smogon

>>30200860
His plan is to make his opponent quit to save time because he's clearly not a serious battler if he's using raticate

252+ SpA Life Orb Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 296-351 (104.5 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I SEE TREES OF GREEN

RED ROSES TOO

Tfw, you also run Psychic terrain.

Unburden Psychic Seed Drifblim.
Drifblim use acrobatics.
Bro is faster than full ev timid Pheromosa and faster than all usable swiftswim mon.

also,
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drifblim: 164-194 (72.8 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still take Shadow ball and survive the turn with 0 ev. That's not even counting the SpD boost from Psychic Seed.

Get a fucking steel type to clean up- kartana ohko Toplele with smart strike.
Now your opponent is 2 pokemon left, against fast +1Spd Drifblim and +1Atk Kartana in a terrain that does not allow priority.

>>30197395
Good Ground Type Pokemon are almost as hard to nerf as Good Water Type Pokemon.

Excadrill can't wait to ram it's spiky mole cock down all the Tapu's throats.

>>30197102
did you even read the post?

>>30200963
Pheromosa has jack shit for defenses. You could slap your flaccid dick on her bug pussy and she's explode into little bits.
The problem is surviving long enough to be able to deal damage, with all that offensive power she has.

>>30201000
I'm not sure that would work since Drifblim isn't grounded.

>>30201000
Trips confirmed Drifblim is bro.

Does Psychic Terrain nullify Prankster in general? What if you start a Tailwind etc is that stopped too?

>>30201126
>The problem is surviving long enough to be able to deal damage
That's why you use Comfey + Tapu Bulu.

Bulu overrides the Psychic Terrain, and Comfey has +3 priority on its Draining Kiss.

>play a bit with a primarina team on PS
>find out sparkling aria hits your partner too

wtf? this shit is literally a rebranded surf.

>>30197197
Run Acrobatics

>>30200840
can someone help me calculate araquanid's OHKO ability on Pheremosa?

water bubble doesn't seem to effect damage calculation using the pokemon showdown tool.

What BP should i fill in for liquidation instead? 190?

>>30195920
Mega Metagross

>252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 55-64 (16.9 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
>252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Lunge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 40-48 (12.3 - 14.8%) -- possible 7HKO
>Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. Marowak-Alola: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Marowak-Alola: 258-304 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>>30195954
oranguru marowack. set trick room and buttfuck them.

>>30201508
>set trick room
good luck

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>>30195920
Mudsdale with heavy slam and toucannon with rock blast and focus sash. Now pheromosa has to choose what dies the thing that will kill it or the thing that will kill lele. i dont even know if pheromosa or lele have enough power to take down a mudsdale with enough sp.def investment

>>30201180
Heals burns, primarina z move (even if it's shit it looks pretty) and decent BP (far more than I expected, same bp as First Impression), so it has some utility. If any physical sweeper gets burned, a sparkling aria will fix em up, if it doesn't kill them.

>>30201357
A-Marowak is an amazing anti-meta poke, just needs shadow bone, flare b, will-o-wisp and eq with spd investment to reck ubs and tapus (except fini)

>>30201646
I prefer Bonemerang, gets through subs and sashes and doesn't get fucked up by terrains like EQ

>>30201609
Why didnt they just make it like pollen puff?

>>30201961
Because it's all adjacent, not single-target.

>>30201586
What would be the best Mudsdale set then?

>>30201609
burns aren't all that common anymore, and even then in doubles sparkling aria has less BP than scald
it's OK, i just figured it'd be like heat wave where it just hits the opponent's targets. primarina has a spread move in STAB dazzling gleam anyway

>>30202029
-high horsepower
-rock slide
-heavy slam
-protect/some other 4th attack for assvest

>>30202029
Mudsdale @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 4 Def / 148 SpD
Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Mudsdale @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 4 Def / 148 SpD
Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat

>>30202116
wait this is doubles sorry, switch EQ for high horsepower

>>30200510
Holy shit, is work

>>30201679
>mememarang is 90acc
>EQ is fucked by Bulu

Stomping Tantrum is the patrician's answer in VGC.

>lose 25 power but don't lose any important 2HKOs on virtually everything you're using it on, keeping in mind it's a coverage move
>can double protect to force a protect fail and make it a 150 BP move

>>30200510
>tfw you've been shilling this combo ever since Bulu was revealed
>only now are normies catching on

>>30202211
comfey needs a life orb, a +spa nature, and max EVs to one-shot a pheromosa with no hp/spd investment

>>30198099
Doesn't Z-Crystal Destiny Bond redirect?

>>30202211
How are you running comfey? Its good'

>>30202248
Comfey is pretty mediocre but if it gets Giga Drain from move tutors it will become godlike

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>>30202239
Its doesnt (I change clear smog to fairy)

>>30202275
>get unlucky
>meme strat ruined

>>30198238
Mismagius or Haunter? Uses Z-Destiny Bond, gives Muk Levitate.

>>30202289
You invest some SpA

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>>30202197
>see opponent is going to switch
>protect with partner
>attack it with stomping tantrum
>next turn
>150 BP stomping tantrum

>>30202116
Musdale is the new arcanine but better

>>30202329
Does it really work if Stomping Tantrum is the ineffective move?
It basically can't be protected since it will get stronger next turn.

>>30202355
How does Mudsdale's niche fit Arcanine's in any way?

>>30202355
???

>>30202379
they're both orange

>>30202355
What? Arcanine role is intimidate+snarl

>>30201000
Fuck you Verlisify

>>30202379
>>30202406
>>30202423
im just referring to how Mudsdale learns a ton great moves, Has a great ability and solid typing

>tfw Tapu Bulu, M-Gyarados, Magnezone, and A-Marowak all have pretty good synergy with each other

I'm surprised, actually.

>>30198325
What was the deal with Spotlight again? Why was it bad?

>>30202730
It doesn't redirect your opponent into their ally.

>>30197242
Mecha Zygarde shits on every variant but special

>>30198257
Running some calcs. I'm not sure about Clefairy always dying depending on how you run her. After running calcs, I'm pretty confident that Pheromosa's very overrated.

One of the biggest weaknesses of Pheromosa (and why I think she is overrated) is the low base power of her moves. You either have to rely on Focus Miss or HJK for power and High Jump Kick in VGC is very unreliable. Add to that single targetting and you're left with a good Pokemon but hardly a broken one.

(ariaods is also a rage powder user btw, not that it matter that much)

Psyhic terrain boost for Lele on the other hand scares me: 252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy in Psychic Terrain: 153-183 (86.4 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

What about running ala+lele? You stack weaknesses but you get a very strong psychic from Alakazam paired with a dazzling gleam or psychic from lele.

>>30198236
Pheromosa doesn't have reliable high-powered STAB and all its moves are single target. Tapus give powerful secondary effects on switch-in, 1.5x boost to secondary stab (which can help teammates), and have amazing offensive stats.

The only UB I think will make an impact is Celesteela almost entirely based on typing. And that's just because Fairy is such a good typing this meta... (Xirkitree might see usage on some niche teams)

this thread makes me realize I'm way too stupid for doubles

are there any good resources to learn this format

>>30200524
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT:

does Psychic Terrain block Follow Me?

logically I'd assume not but....

Pheromosa and Tapu Lele only carry single target moves.

Could this clear the way for ALOLA AKBAR

(it's not like ANYTHING other than a ground type can safely switch into a banded galvanize adamant explosion)

>>30203278
Nugget Bridge
Smogon

>>30203297
No.

>>30203309
does smogon even have vgc resources?

>>30203356
I'm not sure, but they have a lot of Battle Spot Doubles resources which is where a lot of VGC teams will be practicing and testing out members.

oldmanvgc, while a bit dated, also provides some resources as well.

seems like the best place to ask

what's a good anti-waller to build into a team? i currently have bulky DDance salamence bred & ready, but i'm struggling to figure out what a good build-around core piece would be alongside him

having garchomp seems like just asking to have my butthole blown out by scald procs or icebeam sweepers, is non-mega scizor still worth running?

is top keko or starmie the only realistic answer to toxapex? my keko is Adamant, so i'd have to run a Wild Charge//Brave Bird yolo slam package with him

>>30202751
Lame

>>30203446
do people actually use toxapex?

>>30203484
it's like a better slowbro

>>30203390
MemeBridge, but I don't recommend it to post is just cancer. Read the blogs, some of them are just too good.

>>30203012
I want to someone do a surprising set for guzzlord a wreck the meta (I love this guy, but is just soooooooo bad). There is 2 UB that surprise me a lot: Buzzwole AV (is very decent tbqh), and kartana (Smart Strike save me like twice against Minimize)

>>30203511
did people ever use slowbro?

>>30203484
Where have you been these past few days ? It's literally Ferrothorn's Alolan cousin.

>>30203484

it's an ungodly stallmonster with inbuilt poison, access to recover and other stupid bullshit that can outright crank half your team if you aren't ready for it

poison/water is fucking obnoxious since the best answer to it would be earthquake slam jam, but the faggot spams Scald which translates to any physical switch-in being extremely unsafe due to burn procs

>>30203536
this is shitty bait

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>>30203511
>>30203544
>>30203554
leave toxapex to me

>>30203297
Does Psychic Terrain block Helping Hand?

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>the duo to beat in VGC is a pair of pseudo-legend waifus

What a time to be alive

should we start a new vgc thread y/n

>>30203766
y
There's still ground to cover

>>30197562
I'll welcome a metagame dominated by something other than the fucking genies

>>30203776
you want it, you got it
>>30203928

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>>30203796
>Tfw realizing vgc18 will probably have Mega, Genies, cresse, and along with UB and Tapus.

>>30201180
>>30201609
It's a battle royale move

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>>30201357
..That's why you run Shadow Ball on Lele, which is a guaranteed OHKO... Pheromosa has problems with ghosts, any time you see this opening then Lele will have shadow ball for it. That's what makes the pair so good in the first place...

>>30201508
Set Trick Ro-- OHKOed auto lose.

>>30203012
>>30203526
Is Buzzwole slow enough for Trick Room?

>>30204214
>..That's why you run Shadow Ball on Lele, which is a guaranteed OHKO
It's fucking not. And Psychic deals more damage than super effective Shadow Ball. WolfeVGC already released an EVs spread to always take a hit from Tapu Lele while always OHKOing it with Shadow Bone.

>>30204374
so what is the ev spread?

Vgc is shit, especially the last few years.
>Forced to use shit new Pokemon
>Broken new Pokemon like ubs are allowed
>Legendaries like kyogre and groudon and fug allowed
>Entire meta is based on protecting your ubers
>Teams are almost identical

VGC is retarded.

>>30204848
it was cool for late XY period.
Except kanghaskhan

>>30204848
The only good ultra beasts are celesteela and xurkitree dude. everything else is fucking overrated and has shit movepools with bps of 90 or less. pheromosa is equivalent to like 108 attack if you take away hjk from her, just because she doesn't get close combat and the next best thing is fucking brick break which sucks

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>>30202116
Holy shit, good to see my bro getting some recognition. Been playing him in Smogon Doubles and he's absolutely amazing, though I pair him often with Nihilego and run High Horsepower instead.