>A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is

smogon will never ban something that benefits muh stall

toxapex is great and all, but it gets dropped by a stab earthquake or psychic if the stats are there.

>>30101251
Didn't they just ban M-Sableye?

>>30101284
That's the point. You NEED a STAB SE hit to kill it because it will just tank everything else and switch out (not before it fucked you over with Scald or TSpikes), recovering HP in the process.

It walls a significant portion of the metagame, so it is uber by definition.

>>30101193
This thing made me quit competitive entirely.And I've been at it since gen 4.

>>30101384
Oh yeah forgot about regenerator. at least it's slow as fuck and only has scald as offense. only

>>30101345
Yeah it got banned from gen 6 OU the day before gen 7 started, and it's unbanned there.

Basically the most pointless ban in Smogon's history.

>>30101284
Something that just needs to get rid of the EQ and Psychic user to have a win condition is pretty damn op though.

>>30101398
You clearly haven't since the meta goes full stupid everytime a new generation happens, right now is normal to have a retarded mess. Remember when Genesect happened? (And ironically enough /vp/ once again said Genesect was going to be shit)

>>30101447
And if you try to get cute and setup on it it will just Haze.

You could run Taunt to prevent that... but then you're risking getting burned by Scald.

Special setup sweepers with Taunt can use it as setup bait, but the are very few of them.

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>A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

>>30101677
>machop used karate chop!

>over centralizing the meta is bad for the health of the game
>we're banning landerous
>the genie one
how have you no dropped this website?

>>30101699
>Chansey used Counter!

>>30101699
chansey is swampert on the physical side and blissey specially

>>30101677
except that physical attackers can actually set up on it and kill it

>>30101677
Chansey is completely shut down by Taunt, M-Sableye, it's a complete setup bait for a ton of things, it's completely crippled by Knock Off, the worst thing it can do to you is 100 damage from Seismic Toss, it's susceptible to all entry hazards, has no passive recovery and no Regenerator so passive damage is a big problem to it.

Toxapex has none of these downsides.

>>30101774
skarmory at least gets rekt by every special attacker. toxapex does not

>>30101774
Loses to pretty much every special attacker and quite a few physical ones too, which is roughly half the metagame.
Not uber by definition.

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>A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

>>30101677
>>30101774
>>30101899
quit meme-ing

>tfw setting up on this joker with Komala

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>>A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

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>>30101193
>Give a Pokemon a really interesting signature ability
>Doesn't matter because Regenerator is easily better for it

sub bulk up/sd mimikyu with shadow claw sets up on it

>>30101899
>>30101774
both of these assfucks belong in a tier between uber and OU

I got to 1800 largely crutching on a specially defensive ferrothorn running leftovers, power whip, gyro, leech seed, and gyro

>>30101449
Still banned in gen 6 OU and there's no guarantee it will stay unbanned in 7.

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>A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame

>>30101384
I mean Slowbro, Ferrothorn and Chansey can all wall a significant portion of the meta and they're not uber.

>>30101946
>if you don't have taunt or anything to wall this bulky piece of shit, you lose.

>>30101966
Most run Haze.

>>30101677
>>30101774
>>30101899

Has any of you played gen 7 OU? None of these is even remotely close to Toxapex's walling abilities.
These three have highly exploitable weaknesses that prevent them from doing their job, to the point that swithcing them in at the wrong time could kill your momentum and possibly cost you the match.

Toxapex is incredibly safe to switch in and out thanks to Regenerator. It can afford getting Taunted because it can just click Scald and fish for burns.

It can afford absorbing burns and Knock Offs because thanks to Recover and Regenerator it doesn't give a damn about that.

It can even get ballsy and stay in to scout for coverage moves because it's gonna live them anyway and regen HP by switching out, giving you valuable information in the process.

Toxapex is the ultimate defensive pivot. It's too good for OU and it will only get better as the offensively broken shit like Hoopa-U gets banned.

You guys are pathetic. We finally have a reliable water type with recovery and key resistance, I'm really happy about it

Regenerator was a fucking mistake.

Reminder that the only defensive mons that got banned from OU are Mega Sableye in the biggest copout in Smogon history and Deoxys-D and both of them are infinitely better than Toxapex

>>30101773
Mega Sableye does not fit on every team.

>>30102083
This guy has the right idea.

Toxapex has the right combination of typing, stats, movepool and ability that makes it incredibly spammable, brainless, low-risk and high-reward.

Unless the player is incredibly stupid (such as staying in against STAB SE moves), Toxapex will virtually always accomplish something that will have lasting effects in the match.

>>30102165
Deoxys-D is overrated garbage. Prove me wrong.

>>30102165
Deoxys-D was banned for its suicide lead set, not for its defensive abilities (which are complete shit. mono-psychic is a horrid defensive typing).

>>30102227
Oh so Mega Sableye is the only defensive mon that got banned then.
Good shit Smogon.

>>30101284
Toxapex is one of the few pokemon that counter Zygarde though

>>30101384
>That's the point. You NEED a STAB SE hit to kill it because it will just tank everything else and switch out (not before it fucked you over with Scald or TSpikes), recovering HP in the process.
That's not what they mean. Ferrothorn walls out anything that doesn't have a fire type move. M-Scizor can roost and sd up on even powerful neutral hits like Lando-T EQ and sweep. M-Venusaur can bulk a ton outside of a flying or psychic type move. But none of these are remotely broken. By a significant portion, they mean pokemon that have one or two counters tops. And the fact of the matter is that very few pokemon fulfill this criteria. The fact that Toxapex is weak to some of the most common offensive pokemon from Gen 6 OU pretty much ensures that it'll be easily countered in Gen 7. Don't get me wrong, it'll probably be a really good defensive wall, but it won't be a broken one.

>>30102263
Toxapex cannot counter Zygarde.
Zygarde's only counter is probably Unaware Clefable.

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>>30101193
A download porygon z (with bonus to special attack) oneshots toxapex with thunderbolt after Z-conversion, without STAB. Two shots it without z conversion and download (so haze does nothing).

>>30101677
>>30101774
>>30101899
>>30101946
>>30101977

>Filenames

Stopsamefaggin faggot

>>30102296
Toxapex does indeed counter fully defensive Zygarde variants with Haze.
However Zygarde players have noticed that so they run enough Atk EVs to cleanly 2HKO it now.

>>30102256
Lugia also.

>>30102311
>Hello I am Reddit, I am new to 4chan and don't know what samefagging is!

>>30102296
Didn't vp say Zygarde would be shit as well? And here we are again, getting BTFO. This truly is BTFO: The Game. Kek.

>>30102303
>this thing at +2 oneshots toxapex!
wow really???

>>30102339
Lugia was banned by virtue of being a box legend.
The only exception to the box legend rule is Kyurem-B who happens to have no moves.

>>30102334
A counter means it can switch into any set and then wall it or OHKO. That's not a counter, that's a very shaky check.

>>30101193
*teleports behind u*
*eartquaks*
pssh.... nothing personnel kid

>>30102369
it's not much of a wall if it can be two shotted without any boosts or stab bonuses, or can't stop a sweep.

>>30102389
Counter means OHKO or force out. Toxapex can PP stall Thousand Wave's 16 PP from defensive Zygarde, making it useless.

>>30102477
By that logic Ferrothorn isn't much of a wall because it can't stop Megazard X from sweeping.

koko teams are everywhere though

I said SHE would be Ferro 2.0 but better. They didnt believe me. Now bow down to her suprime defenses. She HAS NO rival

>>30102303
Although Toxapex runs Haze, so Porygon-Z can't really set up on it.

>>30102719
porygon z doesn't need to setup though.

>>30102566
Surely you mean it's impressive it can possibly survive an 4x weakness attack from one specific type?

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>>30101193
>all these newfags thinking a wall is OP because they can't brainlessly kill it with their HO team

It's literally just gen 7's Ferrothorn.

>>30102083
>It can even get ballsy and stay in to scout for coverage moves because it's gonna live them anyway and regen HP by switching out, giving you valuable information in the process.

Yeah this is the bit that puts Toxapex on a whole other level compared to OU's fatmons.

Skarmory needs to think twice before staying in against a Garchomp that may or may not carry Fire Blast.

Ferrothorn and Gliscor need to watch out for random HP Fire and Ice, respectively.

Chansey is not a safe switch into Landorus special LO set because it can carry Knock Off specifically for her.

Toxapex can do shit like staying in against Genesect to see if it has Thunderbolt or not, or Aegislash because Haze deals with SD variants and it can easily live LO-boosted Shadow Balls.
You get the idea. Toxapex is much, much easier to use than the other walls because Recover+Regenerator+stupid defenses allow it to do things they can only dream about.

>>30101974
It means it might draw suspect eventually, but since the mega stat nerf took out the one reason goblin was banned in the first place I doubt it. I haven't even seen a Sableye since the new gen started, so maybe it's finally dead.

>>30101977
>can wall out a majority of the meta game
>after sleep clause is in effect
Just let it spore something useless and use it as setup bait.

>>30102995
Yeah that's precisely the reason why Toxapex deserves the ban like Mega Sableye.

Just like M-Sab is a mostly mindless safety net against hazards and status moves in general, Toxapex is the same for almost everything without a power SE move.

Sure Mega Sableye isn't perfect and still loses to fairies, Scald/Lava Plume Burns, strong special attacks and so on, but its pros vastly outweighted the cons and was eventually banned.

Toxapex will probably face the same fate later, after the more offensively inclined broken shit gets banned.

>>30103175
Clear Smog

>>30102083
This is 100% true. Skarm runs the risk of switching in on a special hit when expecting a physical one. Ferrothorn and Fortress die to anything fire, and Gliscor dies to anything ice flavored. Chansey is knock of bait, and can't reliably switch into a decent amount of physical mons.

The ONLY way I've been able to somewhat reliably kill Toxapex is Z-conversion electric Porygon-Z, and even then they usually manage to swap before I can kill it. Toxapex needs a 4x before I'm willing to say it's fair for OU. Of course Smogon with muh stall will never let it happen.

>>30102981
>It's literally just gen 7's Ferrothorn
That's not a good thing.

>>30103305
I've taken them down with an unboosted Tapu Lele before.

>>30103203
use Ice Meme and pray for FRZ?

>>30101718
>>Being popular among trainers means it's overcentralizing the meta.

>>30103350
Why don't more people use Tapu Lele? It's incredibly powerful and great at support thanks to Psychic Terrain's properties.

>>30103350
>Tapu Lele
That's a different story altogether though. Psychic Terrain turns any Psychic move into a nuke. I've had teams almost be swept by Tapu Lele in the earlier days. Also
>Psychic Terrain
>Unboosted

>>30102165
They also banned Stag, which with trick+scarf would ruin all wallbreakers.

>>30101720
Good Counter argument.

>>30103413
Personally, I've screwed up and forgot when Psychic Terrain is still up and tried to use priority moves. It is a strong tool, but messes up with a good number of plans.

>>30103401
>Everyone using one thing because it's been agreed on that it's the best at it's role isn't over-centralizing the meta

>>30103453
But STag could ruin walls too.

>>30103417
Then "At +/-0 Special Attack and using an item that doesn't buff its offensive powers on first turn.

>>30101193
Hasn't even been a week nigga

>>30101193
Do people even go by Smogon anymore? I thought their influence died out ages ago.

>>30103572
I could say the same of VGC, which was the first time I've ever seen a solved metagame in a pokemon generation before.

>>30103471
By your logic, you should just ban everything that is technically the best at its role for that tier, which will then lead to everything being banned.
Something that's overcentralizing is something that forces people to run certain Pokemon or set so that they don't auto lose. You're not forced to run anything particular to fight Landorus-T unless your team is filled with a bunch of slow physical attackers that don't have Ice coverage, which is your choice to have that type of team.

>>30101193
I guess half of gen 2 was uber then

Smogon became such a joke after gen 3

>>30103634
I'm not saying that we should ban anything for being good, I'm saying I wish this meta had more niches since I get sick of seeing the same 6 mons every match.

>>30103484
And then Stall picked it up by using trapping abilities on suicidemons to kill off any stallbreaker or wallbreaker, which was about the same time Stag was banned.

>>30103657
>I guess half of gen 2 was uber then
Like what?
Shuckle?

>>30103707
Isn't Gen. 2 Suicune really good?

>>30103572
>do people still play showdown?
Yes

>>30103634
But why should I run a pivot other than Lando-T since Lando-T has resistances, bulk, stealth rock, and speed?

So how do you build it?

I assume regen, scaled, recover, the poison protect, and then what? Toxic or spikes for the first time in forever.

>>30103799
scald, recover, tspikes or toxic or sludge bomb, haze or protect

>>30103799
You can also try Haze

>>30103799
Scald, Recover, Baneful Bunker, then Toxic Spikes or just Toxic is the most common setup.

>>30102483
It can also Haze away Zygarde's boosts.

>>30103830
baneful bunker is a meme

>>30103799
Im using TSpikes, Scald, Recover and Toxic

>>30103187
>Scald/Lava Plume Burns,
how does sableye lose by losing 1/16th of its hp every turn

>>30103858
Then just protect then?
Sorry I try and avoid using cancer, so I don't know the setup.

>>30102483
I've been careful about using Toxapex to stop Zygarde, I have a fear of running into a variant with Thousand Waves and Rest

>>30103799
You need haze. Toxapex can easily be set up on if you don't have it.
Haze
Recover
Scald
Toxic/Toxic spikes

>>30103901
Tapu fini works wonder then. Can be built to live a plus 2 thousand waves.

>It's another gen where OU is dominated by stall
Guess I'll just keep running in UU.

>>30103894
>i try to avoid cancer
>is asking how to use toxapex
Jokes aside, Big Guy Bunker is a straight upgrade to Protect in every way except for situations where you would want to burn a physical attacker.

>>30103894
I think he means it's not as useful since nothing that makes contact wants to remain on it.

>>30101398
>And I've been at it since gen 4.
Then you would have known the hell that was early gen 5's meta, so I don't believe you.

>>30103928
It'll become less defensive once all of the bans set in.

>>30101736
Are you actually autistic? It has bast 5 defense

>>30103959
Base*

>>30103707
Suicune, Skarmory, Zapdos, Umbreon, Blissey, Steelix, Forretress

Bellyzard, Perish Trap and Joltwak existed for a reason... those pokemon (and more that I probably forgot) were stall machines

>>30103953
Water shall rule the Earth.

>>30103958
I at least expect Aegis, Genesect, and Pheromosa to go away, I'm praying Toxapex goes with them but I know smogon too well to believe it.

>>30103858
It's an arguably better protect against sweeping pokemon if you run toxic instead of spikes. The faster damage is better since it front loads the damage instead of toxic and you'd rather toxic a heavy pokemon.

Really the question is whether you want to even run a protect move to begin with.

Scald is happening no matter what, recover is happening to matter what, and you're taking some form of debuff via poison/toxic in spikes or toxic. The one question is if you want to run extra stall via bunker of if you want to stop setups via haze and there are arguments for both.

>>30101963
Reminds me of tyrantrum in XY, though rock head didn't get released until ORAS iirc.

>>30103928
>Stall gets 1 (one) toy maybe two if we include mantine
>Offense gets Xurkitree, buffed Diancie, Buffed Dugtrio, Buzzswole, Kartana, Greninja, Porygon-Z, Z-Move nukes, all Tapus and Memekyu
>Offensefags still complain

Any ideas what other mons smogon will ban?

Really getting tired of this shit and wasted time

>>30104009
I would be surprised if Power Construct is allowed to stay past the first suspect.

>>30101193
>post yfw trick scarf alolan persian becomes the norm

>>30103959
>What is effective hp
0 Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 115-136 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
>0 Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 67-79 (16.5 - 19.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

That anon was off but not by much.

>>30104038
>Using the term offensefag
Fuck off stall user, waiting 150 turns for points isn't fun.

>>30104050
Aegis and Pheromosa are confirmed.
Power Construct is too ridiculous not to ban.

>>30104050
Top Lel needs to leave

>>30104056
Thousand Arrows is arguably what is making Zygarde more powerful than Power Construct, if PC goes Zygarde-50 will still be OU

What support are you guys running with Toxa?

>>30104067
I've been running scarf Rotom-H or M with trick to break walls like this since gen 5. Get's em every time

>>30104143
0 doubt that Thousand Arrows will make the regular Zygarde forms really good, but Power Construct is what pushes it over the edge. The amount of bulk it gets, along with a free Sitrus Berry, makes it so difficult to take out.

>>30104158
Splash
Flash
Surf
Swagger

>>30104158
People say Toxathorn is the best but Toxabulu is also pretty cool. Toxabulutran is a good core.

>>30104139
Link to the thread, please? I don't know where to look for all the gen 7 stuff.

>>30104139
Why aegis?
earthquake or taunt and gg

The only reasons I don't want this thing banned are that it looks really cool and it'll be wonderful for mono poison teams.

>>30104162
Its a shame people sleep on Heat so much for Wash, I think it still has excellent utility

>>30101899
>Machoke used Fire Blast

>>30104322
>earthquake or taunt and gg
>implying aegis users don't know to get the fuck out when they see a groudn type or a common taunt user

>>30104186
>>30104221
Salazzle seems the best imo to really take advantage of merciless

>>30102267
>Ferrothorn walls out anything that doesn't have a fire type move
All special attackers and many physical attackers can run fire type coverage to break through Ferrothorn and Scizor. Only certain types of pokemon can run supereffective STAB for obvious reasons.

>>30104548
>Salazzle
>Merciless
Salazzle is just going to become UU's Weavile, and no one runs merciless. Toxapex is a stallmon, not a sweeper.

>>30104139
Once Aegislash goes
Ou goes to shit hes the glue keeping this cluster fuck together

>>30104716
>Ou goes to shit hes the glue keeping this cluster fuck together
how so?

>>30104738
Counters alot of the new stuff and keeps them in check

>>30104834
The Pokemon it keeps in check are likely to get the boot to Ubers as well.

>>30104834
Such as?
Most of the new stuff has plenty of counters, every UB outside Pheromosa is actually not hard to counter at all.

>>30101193
taunt toxicroak :D

>>30104938
Which literally cannot touch marinie

>>30103799
I personally find it more fun to play it with the non-meta set. With the Merciless ability + baneful bunker, venoshock, t-spikes and scald/recover

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>>30101963
So run a Merciless Modest Tox and try catching people by surprise with crit Venoshocks

>>30104653
Toxapex actually works as a defensive sweeper with Merciless + venoshock and toxic spikes granted that you have to have killed any steel types in the opposing team.

>>30104127
Play vgc then?

>>30101193

this has to be the most overrated mon in existence, everytime I fight one on showdown its like they are giving me a free turn to set up, i have NEVER seen its baneful bunker be useful at all ever.

it literally cant do shit against special attackers, and his "lol I poison u game" is absolutely ruined by a steel or poison types, even physical attackers can easily earthquake on him, or even worse use it as setup fodder if it doesnt carry haze.

unlike memeslash who can hit like a truck, toxameme cant do shit to kill you most of the time, and even its toxic spikes are useless because they can be just removed by just switching in another poison type.

also

>hurr durr I dont know what is a wallbreaker.

>>30105394
way too weak, poison is shit offensively

I wish I could kill it with celesteela, I think I need to change my team to add something that easily kills it
Will mega alakazam work with regenerator?

>>30105775
That's a pretty solid idea. Just try to outplay pursuit users.

>>30105775

Life orb reuniclus with magic guard.

100% immune to stall, murders it with life orb psychic.

>>30101193
>Tapu Koko used Thunderbolt!

>>30105722
>his

>>30105805
>>30105856
I just need to think about where it fits into the team

>>30105873
I have a specs koko and they never let me hit it :(

>clearly the problem with the metagame is toxic
>smogon still hasn't banned toxic
?
?????

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>>30101193
Over centralizing the meta is part of its design. The animal it's based on does it as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ardrFZuFkU&t=306s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQdRoMogCjU

>>30101193
Forgive my ignorance, but what does this pokemon do to you?

Yes, it's a defensive powerhouse and I see that, but what kind of threat does it pose to your team after switching in?

>>30106273
Apex Predator!

>>30106273
We need to gather the Toxapex and put them in a bin of fresh water.

>>30101531
Lucario could set up on it with Nasty Plot, though I don't know if it has the proper movepool to deal with it.

>>30101193
>>30101384
boo-fucking-hoo
get good you pathetic crybaby

>>30106469
It learns Psychic

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>>30101193
>the one Gen VII monster that's actually good is subject to be banned
Way to go, GameFreak.

>>30106368
Toxic or burn
Haze
In general more fucking stall in an already boring ass stall metagame

>>30106534
>is subject to getting banned by an unofficial pokemon circlejerk club who think any legendaries belong in OU

Wow, its fucking NOTHING.

>>30106534
It's one shitter whining about it.

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>>30101193
If they ban stall. I quit pokemon.

This is the best metagame I have ever enjoyed.

Hyper Offense and Balance are cucks next to gods of Stall.

>>30106273
>Toxapex, Bruxish, Wishiwashi all appear.
Neat. Just needed a new marine snailmon.

>>30106581
Unless you make your own league, play in the official tournaments, or play with small groups of people, you're not going to find many places that don't play by Smogon rules. I don't like them either, but for the most part it's all we got. All of the online battle simulators use their rules, too.

>>30103337
Ferrothorn has plenty of checks and counters, it's part of a healthy meta for the time being. Git gud.

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>>30101193
A defensive pokemon with the highest mixed defenses of all time? Oh don't worry just use Toxic on--

Well, okay, but I'm sure it has a 4x weakness to somethi--

Sure, fine, great defenses and no 4x weakness, but at least it doesn't have any reliable recove-- oh for fuck's sake Gamefreak

I would just have to assume that Gamefreak added some kind of great pokemon alongside this one that is a direct counter, and it's not like this pokemon will be able to beat everything else including Legendar--

FUCKING SHIT GAMEFREAK! I'M TRYING TO HELP YOU OUT HERE!

Ok, fine, even though this retarded pokemon has no counter-strategies, unwarranted high defensive stats, annoying status conditions, takes no skill to utilize, has the best recovery possible, and ruins fun for everybody involved, at least we peons can take solace in the fact that it doesn't have a great signature move that makes fighting against it a frustrating coin flip. Right? Right Gamefreak?

Wait, you did what? You actually... you gave it what? Are you fucking serious? You know what, no, just fuck this game, fuck you, fuck pokemon, and fuck toxapex. I'm out of here.

>>30106538
And that's why I play Doubles.

>>30104716
Was anything at all added to stop it from being the monster it was in Gen VI? If not, I don't see it staying unbanned at all.

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>>30106621
What do you fuckers do when you encounter a mirror stall team? I guess you're not exactly sure yet because the first stall vs stall matches of Sun & Moon are still currently on Turn 10,753.

Could you email me ASAP with the results of that match when it's done though?

>>30106581
That unofficial pokemon circlejerk club is the one who dictates the rules of the biggest server for online Pokemon online right now.
Have fun on Battle Spot.

I play mono-poison and Toxapex was probably been the least useful member of the team so far. Strongly thinking of swapping him out for Nidoking.

>>30106794
>takes no skill to utilize
Do people unironically think using any Pokemon takes skill?

>>30106621
How on Earth could you possibly enjoy stall? I'd take weather wars back any day before we revert to stall.

>>30106897
I just go to my locals

>>30106534
>monster
it's like I'm reading a fucking kotaku article

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>>30106933
It was a facetious joke you autismo

>>30101471
both those moves are pretty common in the meta though..

Based Toxapex should stay

Hyper Offense is boring and gay

I look forward to stalling new players

>>30106966
It's called Pocket Monsters.

>>30106929
The skill in pokemon comes mostly from team planning. The decision making is basic after you've built your team.

Planning to put this thing on your team takes no skill because it walls 80% of the entire meta. You can just plop it on your team without a thought and be successful because it's just too damn good.

I think stall is more interesting to fight than hyper offense

>>30107040
>only stall and hyper offense exist, there is no in between

>>30107038
So people who gimp themselves with shitmons are the most skilled players of all.

>>30107019
Maybe it's just me but I'm triggered when people call them "monsters." Say, mons, pokes, pokmon, or even the full povket monsters, but just monsters is retarded.

>>30106866
any legit stall team that ladders knows how to deal with stall.

>>30106952
Easily comparison is this:
hyper offense and balance = playing mario in smash
stall = playing as ryu in smash

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>>30101193
What will Toxapex do to VGC 17 metagame? Will it be easier to deal with in the Doubles format? Doubles masters please respond.

Since I asked a question I will contribute one idea: it seems that Tapu Lele would have the best chance of dealing with this pokemon.

>>30107083
What are you talking about dude.

>>30107140
doubles pex isn't broken. Because of double targeting.

>>30107140
Earthquake is weaker but toxic is less useful since the games are shorter.
But then any official tourney is just gonna be dominated by ultra beasts so it's kinda redundant looking at a pokemon like toxipex

Araquanid @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Spider Web
- Rest
- Aqua Ring
- Bubble

just bait in a toxapex, trap it and watch your opponent suffer as he slowly gets PP stalled over the course of a month

>>30107074
Tell that to the people whining in the thread, they don't seem to believe that

>>30107252
i almost took you seriously

>>30107252
Why web over infestation?

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>>30107104

>>30101971
I've lost a lot of matches thanks to Ferrothorns with this settup. I only won one game because I froze it with Porygon-Z ice beam.

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>>30101971
>two gyros

>>30107252
Does Spider Web have a turn limit?

>>30101971
ferrothorn is so good tho. Once you use one, you can't go back.

best think about it is that if you rapid spin on ferrothorn, you lose 100% of the time. Just spam leech seed, until defogger is dead. Then lay hazards and wait for them to lose.

>>30106794
Anon you talk like you're from reddit

>>30107339
because infestation only lasts 4-5 turns, then he can switch out

>>30107462
nope

>>30107252
>Toxapex@Shed Shell

This is gonna be a thing. If Dugtrio isn't banned.

>>30107463
>Starmie used Reflect Type!
>Starmie used Recover!

Defensive Starmie feels like such a meme but it all becomes worth it once you use it vs Ferro.

>>30107507
...so this move lasts forever? Do you have to stay switched in as the user to keep it active or can you switch out to something else?

>>30107539
you have to stay in. the point of the set is to make these faggots suffer a slow death

>>30107508
Dugtrio can't deal with Toxapex.
Can't switch in, can't 2HKO.
In any case Eject button is better so you can pivot into your own Dug vs Heatran/Magnezone

>>30107529
i agree that works, as i have used one myself.

But this is the mindset of 95% of battlers
>set up
>attack
>gg
or
>slap assault vest on anything

So 1% of battlers know this starmie.

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>>30107573
I appreciate the sadism of the set you made, I was just exploring your knowledge of the move because I now have an idea for a Perish Trap team for Doubles using this move. I wonder if it will be viable. Araquanid seems defensive enough to survive for 3 turns with proper investment and Protect. The only question is who my Perish Song user should be.

>>30107529
I've always wanted to use a Reflect Type Starmie. What spread/moves are you running?

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>>30101384
>You need to use super effective moves to kill a wall
SHERLOCK STRIKES AGAIN
If you don't have a Psychic, Ground or Electric type, its time to back to the team builder kid.

>>30107575
pex at full health i agree duggy can't deal, but not one that's weakened.

i use eject button pex + scarf aerial ace duggy to trap and kill pheromosa

>>30107575
Dugtrio has always been and always will be a revenge killer. You don't switch it into things, you send it out after something is dead to kill things.

>>30101251
Lugia, the ultimate wall of bullshit bird, a stallfags dream come true, with Pressure for PP stall OR Multiscale for switch-ins, Roost, and a good defensive typing, and 154 SpD, is banned form OU.

Checkmate!

>>30107673
or you take that strategy up 2 notches and use a slow u-turn/baton pass + dugtrio to completely trap with no risk.

>>30107685
>Box Legendary.

>>30106581
>unofficial pokemon circlejerk club

you call them this and yet you use their term for the standard tier in the same post

>>30106794
>send out Salazzle
>toxic it
There you go

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>>30106581
says the circle jerk who's official tournament finals look like this

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>>30106794
Sounds like how badly this mon fucked up the meta. The only things that this new pokemon has over M-Venusaur is Toxic spikes, and the bunker move, also it can hold an item while M-Venusaur cant

>they gave Corrosion to a frail special sweeper
>they gave Merciless to tank

Fucking GF

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>>30107463
>magnet pull magnezone with HP fire

>>30107805
best kanto starter and best grass type.

it was the best poison type until pex

>>30107840
>I don't know the item shed shell in high level play.

>>30107900
>shed shell

literally who

>>30107964
It's time for lesson number 1 in elecmentary competitive battling famalam

>When this item is held by a Pokémon, if the trainer tries to switch the holder with another Pokémon, the switch is not affected by any moves or abilities which would prevent it from leaving.

>>30103928
this, UU is the best tier desu, you'll never see the same team twice

>>30107805
and it allows you to use another mega
so that's four things it has over it

Best place to chain rockruffs, preferibly in the first island?

>>30107900
>crippling yourself
>high level
you got me good, anon

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>>30108450
Every fucking time.

>>30108450
>regenerator
>recover

if you need lefties on top of that for it to work for you, you must be a shitty battler.

>Still following smogon clause
Just do whatever you want, faggot.
Is that so hard?

>>30101193

I like Toxapex because it makes Hyper Offense "muh insta-win buttan" faggots cry.

HO is braindead. Get over it. The sooner you bow down to your newking, the better.

>>30108564
Fine then, anon, go do whatever you want.
On Battle Spot.

>>30108369
first island

>>30108595
GSC/RSE/DPPt were the best meta.

BW/XY/ORAS were cancer meta

RBY was the most fun meta

>>30106725
I know Ferro does, but Toxapex doesn't

>>30107793
>Send out Salazzle
>he switches

#woah

>>30106273
>>30106686
Holy shit, bruxish has super effective STAB against toxapex. I really hope that was intentional.

>>30108645

I agree!

Hi five mah nigga!

Reuniclus

>>30108675
>landorus, tapu koko, xurkstree, z-conversion porygon-z, tapu-lele, gardevoir, alakazam, latios, any choice banded stab earthquake

>>30108645
>GSC
>Good
Confirmed for never playing it. It's unarguably the worst meta of them all. You're forced to run 5 Pokemon AND a Snorlax, if you don't like Snorlax well you're fucked, you have to use it.

>>30108759
>toxapex users wont just switch out after taking an urfquack for regenerator to kick in
Epin my man

>>30106899
Shit, really? I was considering using this thing on MY mono poison team. But it's already got a nidoqueen (for rocks). Should I go back to tentacruel?

>>30108805
that's because of the hp bar glitch. game it self moved at a snails pace. But it was about who thought 10 turns ahead of the other better. It was like chess.

ORAS/XY/BW was literally close your eyes slab a band and click strong move to win.

>>30108808
>Slowbro switches out after taking a knock off or just Twaves/Toxics and then heals up
So this is the power........of.....no counters....................

>>30108808
then beat the other mons and save pex for last. Pex can't do anything except wait for it's doom.

>>30108868
No it was about who removed the opposing Skarmory first and then proceeded to set up Snorlax faster, or who got the luckier rolls on Restalk, the hp bar had nothing to do with how awful the meta was.

>>30108916
that takes miles more thought and thinking ahead than "slap band spam one move/u-turn to win"

>>30107635
Standard is timid max HP + speed with scald, reflect type, recover, and rapid spin.

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>>30108939
Are you delusional?
It's the same fucking shit.
>Remove counter
>Use win condition and press button
OR
>Stall 340+ turns
>Timerstall stall team and hope the enemy will get bored and leave

>>30107805
Also regenerator. You know, the whole reason mega venu dropped of the face of the planet in favor of amoongus/tangrowth? I swear, half of you people don't play this game.

>>30108989
yeah you just proved my point.

back then you have to think 5x more turns ahead than now. Any idiot can plan out 3~4 turns ahead.

The reason why chess is god tier is not because of the tried and true setup strategies, but by who thinks ahead further than the other. In GSC you have to thin way more turns ahead than now. Which proves how casual the metagame became after BW

>>30108939
No it doesn't
Swords dancing your Marowak and hitting Skarm once when it whirlwinds you and forcing it to rest after the second time it happens doesn't take any skill or thought, praying that the opposing Raikou or Zapdos gets bad rolls on restalk and gets nailed by a crit so you can set up on Vaporeon doesn't take any thought or skill. Intentionally letting all your pokemon but Snorlax faint just so you can set up without being phased doesn't take any thought or skill. It just takes patience, it's boring, isn't engaging, doesn't require any planning in particular since the synergies are already engraved in stone and so is the playstyle. As a person whose favorite gen is gen2 I can safely say gen 2 has the worst meta of all.

DPP was probably the best one.

>>30109089
again you are not thinking ahead at all. You are only thinking about the mon in front of you and the counter behind you. at best you think alteast 4~5 turns max.

GSC battling you need to think atleast 10~20 turns ahead. Because both sides has their queen being the snorlax, and ther pressure being their marowaks and nidokings.

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>>30109079
>Any idiot can plan out 3~4 turns ahead.
And you need to think ahead of what THEY are planning Mr "Chess master".

How did this change after BW? I didn't. The same game only the pokemon changed.

>>30109168
Can't you just set up Stealth Rock?

>>30106581
>He thinks Legendaries are too powerful for OU. Even Regigigas and Cosmog.

>>30109255
Mechanic changes, more offensive held items, power creep.

>>30109168
No, stop that "you're not thinking ahead" meme. Thinking 20 turns ahead simply means you're thinking with 10-20 pp less ahead. Gen 2 isn't chess. Chess forces you to walk ahead and think strategically about your next move and about risks and rewards. Gen 2 simply doesn't have any risks and the rewards are minimal, there's a reason why most tournament matches end up being struggle fests.

>>30102311
What's wrong with making multiple posts in a thread anon :^)

>>30109298
And the same goes for the defensive end,and those that are too powerful are (and not) are banned.

You need to take off the tinted googles. It's stall garbage in gen2, its stall garbage in gen7.
You are coming off as someone who is "too intelligent for competitive pokemon" and by that I mean someone who is salty.

Try going in, go get smogon points and run a choice band whatever and tell me how it goes.

>>30109264
gsc had no stealth rock
only forrretress can setup spikes.

>>30109255
In gsc effectively every pokemon had the follow EV equivalent while all being neutral natured

252/252/252/252/252/252 with 30 IVs all

And with swords dance if you exceed 1000 in any stat you return to zero. In swords dance marowak's case for example.

That means you can't sweep and everything feels like aegislash bulk. You have to really understand the long term of getting the opponent in a position where the long term effect is a loss. There are less mistakes you can make, but there are more instances of when you know you will ultimately lose despite still having 4 pokemon at full health and opponent with no setup.

>>30107110
No
Stall=playing Link and spamming projectiles.
Hyper offense=playing Smash without using shield
Balanced=playing the combination of Fox and Falco

>>30109306
>Chess forces you to walk ahead and think strategically about your next move and about risks and rewards.

Thats where you are wrong buddy. Chess has tried and true long tern tactics that any chess player has to memorize. These tactics need to be engrained so that you can tell from the very first turn, which tactic the opponent is using so 20+ turns ahead you know you will win. It's similar to the neutral game in any fighting game. Who creates the first opportunity at an advantage.

>>30101193
>Garchomp
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-210 (57.8 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Z-Conversion Porygon-Z
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 300-356 (98.6 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
>Mudsdale
252+ Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 186-222 (61.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Zapdos
68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 186-218 (61.1 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Flygon after one DRagon Dance
+1 252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Have you tried using Earthquake or Thunderbolt on it?
It's pretty tanky, I'll give you that but I haven't had any problem's with it at all.

>>30108540
Read the reply chain, that was in reference to Magnet Pull HP Fire Magnezone vs. Ferrothorn.

Dropping Ferrothorn's Leftovers to escape the occasional Magnezone isn't a good deal in the long run.

>>30109401
So you can't just aim for a 998 Attack?

>>30101193
Why did you make this thread? We all know it's broken, but nothing (except legendaries) will be banned this early in the metagame.

>>30109411
your definition of stall:
>toxic + recover

actual stall
>spin blocking
>hazard control
>scouting
>phazing
>stopping momentum
>destroying win conditions
>stopping sweepers

offense
>volt-turn
>favorabale matchup? if not go bact to step above other wise move forward
>setup/spam CB move
>rinse repeat

>>30109505
Of course, all you had to do was change the attack IV to 14 in NetBattle. (I used to forget to do that all the time)
Random fun fact: shinies and female Pokemon back during Gen II couldn't have full 15 IVs.

>>30109505
by modifying the DVs, the iv equivaent(16 bits so ivs go like 0,2,4 .. 30) instead of (0,1,2,3....31)

>>30101963
It'll get more distribution. First games introduce new abilities/moves next games distribute them. It is known.

>>30109498
magnezone isn't occasional in 1700+. High level play people run magnezone a lot. In lower ladder, i agree magnezone is non-existent.

>>30109659
The question is what mons would benefit from merciless the most?

>>30109728
I'd like to see Gengar get un-fucked.

>>30109728
Snips

>>30109555
>see look my playstyle is intelligent and sophisticated while yours is unga bunga

two can play at that game faggot

>"actual" stall
>spamming regen cores
>burning/twaving anything that can do more than 20% to your team
>spewing hazards at the enemy so their offense is crippled
>posting on the smogon forums about how lando swept your team and saying it should be considered for suspect test
>thinking 1000 turn matches are fun
>finding autistic glee when you burn a physical sweeper
>any pokemon with less than 100/100/100 effective bulk and recover/regenerator is fucking useless
>can get to 1600+ by making matches go on so long their opponent dies of old age
>entirely skillless


>offense
>fast paced and high energy playstyle
>uses hazards but relies on high risk high reward setups or any free damage they can get
>abuses momentum in order to get the opponent into a bad situation and allowing for a setup
>entirely read-based, while cookie cutter flowchart strategies exist and mons may be simple, a person cannot climb to 1600+ by just spamming belly drum azu
>can find use in pokemon outside of OU as a specific counter to common strategies
>one mistake usually ends in either a loss or having most of your team crippled
>likely covered in pussy

>>30109728
Any Poison type with a decent special attack to abuse Venoshock.
I hope this ability retcon for a few mons hits more things in the future.

>>30109794
>referencing showderp memes without knowing how they work
Battle Armor is the only reason that set works as well as it does.

>>30110116
>Getting hit

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>>30110013
>can get to 1600+ by making matches go on so long their opponent dies of old age
Oh lord, I fuggin lost it

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hmm... If only there was some kind of Pokemon that could trap it instantly and then destroy it with STAB Psychic.

>>30111003
Shadow Tag is banned lmao

>>30111003
Woah it's almost like... STag...

Isn't banned................

>tfw Tentacruel will never get its HA retconned into Regenerator

>>30111601
Merciless Tentacruel would be legit.

>>30111601
good

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>>30111003
A-Persian and that bitch together would cause a lot of havoc.

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>>30101398
>Not quitting when Mega Fug made a new tier

I figured Game Freak stopped giving a fuck after that. They tried to remedy their ways by making majority of Gen VII shitmons

>>30109728
Not-Alolan-Gliscor, which is now a specially oriented poison/dark.

would magic bounce espeon do something against it?

>>30101398
Just play VGC it's REAL and OFFCIAL competitive and not some fansite that's made up by a bunch of dickheads who think they are the authority on Pokemon.

>>30112028
must be awful to be so bitter about people playing a simulator on internet

>>30112028
I love how the only thing vgcfags can do shout over and over about how it's official and nothing else.

>>30112047
When those same people try to force me to play by some fansite's rules? Yeah i kinda am, the wifi thread is full of those brainwashed faggots.

>>30112072
and why the fuck don't you go and directly complain to them? you're a fucking faggot

>I won't directly complain against the people that I dislike but I will cry and be bitter on the internet instead where anonimity protects me

fucking pussy faggot

>>30112072
Maybe it's because people here don't like standard rules because it leads to leaderboards looking like >>30107799

>>30112072
Pssh. Hey kid.
There's a VGC tier.

>>30112072
>waah waah why can't I use Mega Kangashkan, Xerneas and Salamance to autowin in singles waah waah

>>30106897
makes you wish someone would dox them both into oblivion

>>30112028
>you have to use less than 6 pokemon
That's the thing that kills the OFFICIAL ONLY NOT A FANMADE PLEASE PLAY OUR RULES format. You don't make all first 5 or so generations battle 6v6 and then make people fight 4v4 or 3v3, that's fucking retarded.

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>>30112191
Between you and me I know the hacker known as 4chan, he's friends with Anonymous, they could show that Smogon fellow who actually sets the rules here....

>>30110013
>>any pokemon with less than 100/100/100 effective bulk and recover/regenerator is fucking useless
I though stall loved Clefable and Quagsire? Defensive pokes don't need big numbers to work.

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>>30103572
VGC is utter shit and shows how terrible Game Freak's balance is. If you actually want to play with all the Pokemon Game Freak has made you need Smogon/Showdown

>>30112191
You're right, how there these people provide a free service to play Pokemon online WHILE BANNING MY BROS
FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT I HOPE THEY GET HACKED IF THEY DON'T UNBAN MY BRO GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

>>30107799
>Clefairy
The madman.

>>30112480
clef and quagsire are only ou because unaware removes the threat of any setup sweeper

if they didnt have unaware then quagsire would be back in PU
clef would barely be OU because magic guard and would eventually drop

their bulk isnt 100/100/100 but it can stop a +6 landorus from sweeping and remove all momentum

>>30113240
Clef became OU because it became Fairy I thought

>>30109411
>Balanced=playing the combination of Fox and Falco
>Fox/Falco
>"""""balanced""""""
even if you mean Sm4sh, Falco is dog shit and Fox is even more stupidly broken