WHY ISN'T ANYONE TALKING ABOUT THIS SHIT?! Z-GEOMANCY

11 stat boosts* in 2 turns fuck

Xern does fine with +2 stats and only a elo shitter wouldn't instantly take his/her checkmons out immediately at the sight of Xern in prep for Power Herb anyways.

Good thing Legendaries will never be in VGC again.

>>29963955
Even outside of VGC Xerneas is a prominent threat in Ubers and AG.

>>29963955
>Good thing Legendaries will never be in VGC until 2018.
ftfy

>telegraphing your move and your item just for big numbers
whimsicott used encore.
you can even switch a prankster mon on reaction to the first turn stat boost and still get your status on it. if you predict it and have to switch, you also get a free turn.

>>29964001

>Implying Xernes will be usable in VGC 2018.

Generational locking son.

>>29964086
or just use roar and have them used up their z-move

OP here.

Yes, there's a few counters but like. You HAVE to get rid of it then and there.

That said, Marshadow would have a field day with this

>>29964108
>implying it won't
>implying it won't show up in the DP remakes postgame in Eterna Forest, making it legal this gen

>>29964086
>>29964110
Doubles, follow me.
Your strategy fails

source?

on the topic of z-support moves, what do you guys think of z-splash? it's a flat +3 to attack. will it see use? will it give tsareena a use?

>>29963901
Marshadow was fucking MADE for shit like that.

Fuck, even Ditto would kick his shit in

>>29964108
well Events still exist

>>29964193
>DP remakes
>when there's a higher chance of getting SM sequels for Necrozma

>>29964250
doubles is a joke and xerneas isnt allowed at vgc, which is also a joke. your strategy fails. taunt

so do we have a list of z moves yet?

>>29964368
remember Zygarde? thats how Necrozma will be treated.

>>29963901
Does it get stored power?

What's Yvetals Z-Move?

>>29964316
>implying tsareena won't be used even though it's slow
Plus people wanna fug it, they'll find a way to make it useful

Z-splash, I don't know. Its a nice idea but most of those z-status moves arent great outside splash and the oddball ones like destiny bond

>>29964316
Most Z-Support Moves will never be used outside of LC and NU, barring Z-Belly Drum.

They all waste an item slot, and now you're stuck with a 3-MoveSlot Syndrome. No leftovers, no choice item, no life orb, no utility item, AND you're missing a coverage move or any support move you may have needed to use again if you get phazed out.

LC may see it in place of Evolite or Sitrus Berry occasionally, or on some Pokemon with Priority like Swinub using Z-Splash on the switch and then having +3 Ice Shard. NU has a lot of walls, so it might be used on a wall breaker who just needs a little more power.

Every other tier can't waste a move AND item slot on it.

Z-Belly Drum is the exception, since it gives you 100% recovery AND the regular Belly Drum +6 Atk -50% Health. Basically makes absolutely certain that the Pokemon who uses it will have no SR or extra damage once they're setup, and it also lets them act as what is essentially a 7th Pokemon, which is 100% worth the move slot.

>>29964501
Doesn't get one, z-geomancy is a z-status move like z-splash or z-destiny bond

>>29964536
What does Z Destiny Bond do?

>>29964579
Regular destiny bond stuff, but also makes whatever used it the center of attention. So doubles

>>29964630
What?

I read that Z-Memento not only cuts the stats from the target but it fully heals the new guy who gets sent in. Memento and Healing Wish in the same move! That's awesome! I'm sure it will help a whole lot of setup sweepers get going. Imagine Uxie getting the dual screens up and then using Z-Memento. Out of nowhere you now have things perfectly set to do whatever you want to power up. It'll be a lot of fun! Probably not a tier-1 strategy, but a lot of fun!

>>29964661
Z-Destiny Bond makes all attacks target the user, and then it activates the regular Destiny Bind effect (KO someone if they KO'D you)

It's stupid in Singles, but in Doubles it can be used to both protect your teammate and snag an early kill.

Z-Destiny Bond, Z-Belly Drum, and Evolite Boost will probably be the only Support Z-Moves with using. Z-Spash is useless when you could instead use Sword Dance any time you're out and hold an item, instead of only getting a 1 time +3 boost and not being able to hold an item.

>magearna used heart swap

>>29964711
The problem with that is that it basically makes the fight 5-6, since any Momento Pokemon bar Latinos (who has much better things to do) is then relegated to what is essentially a suicide roll.

On top of that, Explosion is a better use of suicide, and Uxie needs light clay if it's dual screening.

Still though, that is one of the better uses of Z-Support Moves.

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Do you have to decide between a Z-move and a mega?

Can charizard use grass z-move because he can learn solar beam?

>>29964550
yeah, i'm looking forward to some z-belly drum sets

it's gonna be great on kommo-o, autotomize turn one, then BD with the extra speed and sweep

>>29964777
>Marshadow used [Signature Move]
>Magearna fainted

>>29964851
you can do both, even the Normal mode battle royale trainers sometimes do both since game freak is assholes

charizard can do the grass one with solarbeam

>>29964896
wow, really? that's kinda cool in a way.

>>29964250
Then it just comes down to whether the fastest follow me user with prankster is faster than the fastest encore user with prankster or not, or if someone can just hit the follow me user with taunt before it can use it

>>29964550
Which mons will even run Z-Drum? Most mons already don't run Belly Drum. It's just Slurpuff, Azumarill and Linoone. Slurpuff can't run a Z-move because it won't be able to abuse Unburden.

>>29964896
You can use both Z-Moves and Megas in the same battle?

>>29964946
Yes, but obviously not on the same pokemon because of held item restrictions.

Well, except for mega fug. But we don't talk about mega fug.

>z-dragon ascent

>>29964946
not on the same pokemon but yes. i do megamence + z-conversion in the same battle pretty often in the battle tree, and the trainer on normal difficulty that i mentioned did both mega blaziken and z-water move with primarina

>>29965020
mega fug can't do both because the battle menu slot for z moves and megas is the same. it only gets one but i don't remember which

>>29965020
>>29965035
I figured it couldn't be on the same Pokemon, but thanks! This is really good to know.

>>29965064
Ah, that makes sense. Well at least that's reasonable.

>>29965070
prepare for the the new big flashy thing in gen 8 that uses a special item, can't be knock offed, only once per battle, and can be used in the same battle as the other two, but not on the same pokemon

>>29964428
You wish Sinnohfoetus. They won't remake Sinnoh.

Are there any reliable belly-drum users who also get baton pass?

>>29964933
Guys like Charizard (non-mega), Haryana, Chesnaught, etc.

Basically either bulky ass fucks that can take several hits and deal damage without boosts anyways, and then get healed to 50% with +6 and priority, or SR weak pokes that already ran Sword Dance.

>>29965165
smeargle

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>>29964001
>VGC 2018
>Every team is Primal Kyogre, Primal Palkia, Tapu Lele, Mega Kangaskhan, Smeargle and Pheromosa
>Can't even run Primal Dialga's auto-TR to counter because it'll be KO'd by the time it activates

>>29965020

Fug has a flag on it not to allow for mega evolution if its holding a Z move.

>>29965185
Could it work?

>>29965064
>>29965085
Fug holding any z-crystal can't mega, even if it has no compatible moves.
I think the only mega that can use a z-move is a transformed ditto.

>>29964933
If Darmanitan was a little faster he'd actually use it too.

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what point in the story are z-moves and/or megas implemented?

>>29965165
Other than Smeargle, no, but why is that relevant? There's no reason whatsoever to use Z-Belly Drum if you're just gonna Baton Pass afterwards.

>>29965239
>z-moves
You get the first z-crystal (normalium z) after the first trial. Each subsequent trial will give you a new z-crystal, with some of the more uncommon crystals showing up as loot in various places.

>megas
Postgame in the Battle Tree.

>>29965155
They will, Pokemon Co. is greedy as fuck.

>>29965202
For what?

>>29965239
you get the elements for z moves over time, but it starts early

you get a mega stone really late, probably after beating the game, and all the -ites besides alakazamite (which comes with the mega item) are definitely after beating the game

Z-PARTING SHOT HAS A 100% HEAL FOR THE REPLACEMENT POKEMON

FUCK MEMENTO, Z-PARTING SHOT WILL BRING PANGORO STRAIGHT TO OU AND PANCHAM MAY BE BANNED FROM FUCKING LC

>>29965300
>and all the -ites besides alakazamite (which comes with the mega item) are definitely after beating the game

Some are beyond that, you get the Kanto starters mega stones from beating Red in the tree. (Normal battles not super thankfully)

No idea if blue gives you anything.

>>29964316
Might be used by Solgaleo.

>>29965489
Silvally can also get Parting Shot

>>29966002
I was about to laugh at the prospect of an Uber using a simple Z-Move for boosting purposes, and forgoing band/orb/boating move, since Pahzing's pretty important in Ubers, and then I saw his move pool.

It's like gamefreak shit all over every new Pokemon except Toxapex and Marshadow.

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And fucking Zygarde is left with a new shit tier ability and stats distributed so bad that it is just a weak trio master in general.

It better get the perfect form to be permanent in gen 8 along with an actual ability. Something that decreases ALL fairy and dark moves and not just the fucking Aura abilities.

Game Freak dropped the fucking ball again

>>29966223
Too bad it fucks up his RKS System.

>>29966420
RKS system is pretty lame anyway since the memories apparently don't do anything but change its type

The plates at least boost their type, and arceus also has the option of using z-crystals instead

>>29966503
>and arceus also has the option of using z-crystals instead
Wait, do z-crystals change Arceus' type as well? Or are you just saying that Arceus could run a z-crystal and be normal type just like Silvally can?

>>29965196
>Mega Kangaskhan
Probably not tee bee ach. Poor girl's been nerfed pretty hard.

>>29966911
The former

>>29966911
>Wait, do z-crystals change Arceus' type as well
They do. Multitype got buffed.

Z-crystals don't change Judgement, though.

>>29966251
At least he gets a little healed after transforming

>>29964550
>and now you're stuck with a 3-MoveSlot Syndrome
this is why the ones that will be used are the ones that are already moves worth using. If you aren't already using a z move as a nuke or on some other mon, shit like z-encore is perfectly viable.

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>>29966989
Whoa.

>>29966251
Even with the whole Power Construct shit, Zygarde-Complete is still incredibly bulky. Without any bulk investment, it can switch into Primal Groudon's 252+ Precipice Blades as 50%, Power Construct up to 100%, and then tank ANOTHER Precipice Blades as it 2HKOes with Earth Plate Thousand Arrows.
Seriously, fucker has 216/121/95 bulk. If it got Recover somehow it'd be the wall to end all walls. STABmons Zygarde is looking pretty damn cool with Shore Up to abuse.

>>29967085
>meme metas

>>29967147
>not playing meme metas
If you haven't played an environment where Aerilate Noivern is possible you haven't lived.

what are complete zygardes base stats?

>>29963901
>not running Mental Herb and sweeping with Moonblast
Oldie but a goodie.

>>29967198
>magnemite used sonic boom

>>29967198
>Mental Herb
Isn't it Power Herb?

>>29966989
What's Z-Judgement like?

>>29967240
>20 set damage
Explain
>>29967247
Probably desu

>>29967258
>Breakneck Blitz (180 Power)
Nothing special, especially since you can't change its type.

>>29967325
Aw, shit. Well, back to Choice Banding.

>>29967258
Weaker than Z-Giga Impact technically.
Both are just the normal type Z-move.

Actually question: do moves like gigantic impact or hyper beam still have delay when used as a Z-move?

>>29967038
>Z-Encore

You're right that the only moves used will be mostly moves already on sets, but shit like Z-Encore is very poor - that speed up getting you a KO is pretty much a crap shoot, you're sacrificing Leftovers or Orb for it, and now you've gone and wasted the opportunity to use a better Z-Move on a different Pokemon.

>>29967392
Now that I think about it, do Z-Moves damage scale based off the move?

Bc this is /vp/ and we wouldn't want to spread misinformation here

>>29967410
That's why I said if you aren't using it on something else. Also +1 speed and locking the opponent into something is strong, especially on something that has calm mind or swords dance but no other way to boost speed. You force a switch and get great sweeping potential.

>>29967169
216/100/121/91/95/85
It's really, really, REALLY fat but that's about all that's special about it. Again, recovery would be fucking amazing on it why doesn't it get Recover but having access to Extreme Speed, Coil/DD, and motherfucking Thousand Arrows saves it from being completely useless. The additional 216 points in HP from Power Constructing-up at level 100 are actually very helpful.
>>29967392
Of course not, damaging Z-moves have very little to do with the base move outside of some power calculations. See https://paste(dot)ee/r/mvJ70

>>29967431
They scale based on the power of the original move, yes, but the offensive Z moves don't share any of the original move's effects

>>29967469
How does power construct even work again? Something about how differences when changing forms? Also if that's the case, what does 100% turn into?

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>>29967258
it will get alpha judgment or something like that in the DP remakes, like how ray got mega ray in ORAS

>>29967557
Holy shit so we now have any starter getting a ~300 BP STAB move with no consequences?

>>29967571
Jirachi got jack shit.

Mimikyu gets a free turn to set up Z-Splash and has shadow sneak + 90 base attack and 96 speed, I see some anti-stall potential.

>>29967462
A +speed is pretty weak when coming from an Encore and no items. Adding another stat up move means you have shit coverage unless it's fighting / ghost, and if all you have is 3 attacks you don't have a lot of power.

Z-Taunt could definitely been used though.

>>29967431
https://paste dot ee/r/mvJ70
every z move is listed under its corresponding attack move here. there are some patterns like 130bp moves becoming 195, 70 becoming 140, 100 becoming 180, and so on.

overall I like seeing that moves with big numbers got even bigger numbers with no drawbacks (although one time only) and they pierce protect 25%, because fuck stall

>>29963901
>Riolu used Bullet Punch

>>29967567
Power Construct makes Zygarde 10% and 50% turn into Zygarde-Complete when they hit 50% HP. This isn't actually that terrible since they still gain a substantial amount of hit points during the transformation, but it's still not as good as it could be.

Unless there's any Water Bubble-like memes lurking around, though, Power Construct doesn't do jack shit for Zygarde-Complete.
>>29967571
Or just Arceusium-Z
>requires Judgement to use
>turns into the move Genesis when used, which resets the battle to turn 1 and changes Arceus's forme to Z-Arceus
>Z-Arceus has 240/240/240/240/240/240 base stats and the ability Omnitype, which makes it act like it's every type at once and causes Judgment to always deal Super-Effective damage

>>29967666
at least, that's among the new moves. you can use the patterns to determine the power of old moves, like how earthquake will be 180 when Z'd

>>29967462
>You force a switch and get great sweeping potential.

you force a switch but theres no way you get great sweeping potential without an item

>>29967609
it also learns swords dance, so i'd rather use that and give it lefties or something...
say what does z-swords dance do?

>>29967725
removes stat debuffs

http://pastebin.com/d5Hed1cw

>>29967585
Literally anything can use z-moves, they don't even need STAB, just a move and crystal of the same type

The cost is taking up an item slot and only being usable once per fight

>>29967585
Power cap for Z-Moves is base 200.
https://paste. ee/r/mvJ70

>>29967609
>>29967725
Life Orb Swords Dance: 2.6x power boost over base. 1.3x power boost over base before setting up. Can be used multiple times.
Z-Splash: 2.5x power boost over base. No power boost over base before setting up. Can only be used once. Blocks you from using any other Z-moves on your team
Don't use Z-Splash on anything that gets Swords Dance, it's not worth it. At all.

>>29967708
Power Construct is bad, it ruins Zygarde. So much potential ruined by the bad gimmicks GF force on us.

>>29967725
>lefties

Are you retarded

>>29963901
>snatch

>>29967609
>Mimikyu gets a free turn to set up Z-Splash and has shadow sneak + 90 base attack and 96 speed, I see some anti-stall potential.

Alternatively, Mimikyu uses Sword Dance and carries a Life Orb, which is actually Stronger than Z-Splash and now you can use a much more useful Z-Move on a different Pokemon.

There is practically no reason to give Z-Splash to a Pokemon with access to Sword Dance.

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>>29967666
>black kyurem finally has a good ice physical move
>200 BP 100acc
will black kyurem be banned from OU?

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Sorry I don't have the game, what is OP talking about ? they buffed Geomancy ?

>>29967708
>turn 1
>240 every stat
>everything is super effective

Yeah, that thing would probably be too broken for AG.

>>29967801
>>29967844
ah, didn't do any math was just looking at potential z-move stuff

sd+lo makes way more sense

>>29967666
what the fuck is that link supposed to be?

>>29967934
see
>>29967795
it's counted as spam by 4chan for some reason

>>29967810
>Power Construct is bad, it ruins Zygarde.
>ruins
That implies that Zygarde got worse than it already was. As it stood, Aura Break was completely useless on Zygarde in Gen VI while Power Construct gives Zygarde 50% a shot at becoming nigh-unrevengeable when it activates. It's unquestionably a buff, just not nearly as much of a buff as it should've gotten. Thousand Arrows is probably the bigger upgrade for it on the whole.
>>29967865
Game Freak'd do it, don't tell me they wouldn't. Unlike, say, Zygarde, Arceus will literally never ever be allowed in any official tournament so they have free reign to make it as broken as they could ever possibly want and only Smogon would have to deal with the fallout.

I don't get it, so geomancy was taken out and is only a z-move now? is there a list of all the z-moves ?

>>29967793
No, I was talking about Hydro Cannon or Frenzy Vine or such.
>>29967795
Aw.

>>29968008
https://paste. ee/r/mvJ70
http://pastebin.com/d5Hed1cw

>>29965196
>smeargle
Is he still useable without dark void?

>>29968008
Z-moves use a regular move as their basis, to use z-geomancy you must have the move geomancy and have the correct z crystal item equipped to the pokemon to have the option to use z-geomancy

>>29967708
Holy shit man
That's not even trying to be balanced
Literally Z-Arceus tier
I love it, hail my first Mythical

>>29967708
still weak to rock 0/10 shitmon we'll see it in PU

>>29967969
>Essentially having an ability that does nothing but give you the forme that should be available by other means

PC is a minor buff yes, but it would all be better if the damn comp forme was permanent, much like Deoxys' formes or by holding an item like Giratina-O despite that being worse than being changeable at will.

By all means, GF could had buffed Aura Break instead and make it way mote efficient and better than lame old zen mode 1,5. Imagine Aura Break being more than just a situational ability, but with the effect to decrease any Fairy and Dark moves' damage and also keep the effects it got on the Other Aura abilities too.

Power Construct just doesn't do much for Zygarde at all, except for the minor healing and the forme change that should not even be the case.

>>29968076
>and have the correct z crystal item equipped

And what is the correct z crystal? one that matches the type of the move? so the z fairy crystal?

>>29968092
It's Arceus, they have absolutely no reason to make it balanced.

Regular Arceus is already the best Pokemon in AG, after all. No species clause and not using a Mega slot is one hell of a drug.

>>29968152
Yes.

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>>29963940
>take his/her checkmons out immediately

What are check pokemons exactly? I read about it here and there, still learning here so no bully please.

>>29968152
Yeah, gotta use the z-crystal with the same typing as the move.

one thing i'm not sure about is how the game handles a pokemon with multiple moves that are compatible with an equipped z-crystal. anyone here know?

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>>29968217
>>29968228
Eh, that's gay as shit though. You'd lose power herb, not worth it

>>29967847
>Basically an Ice explosion
Neat.

>>29967708
>Omnitype, which makes it act like it's every type at once

No Damage: Normal, Ghost, Dragon, Electric, Ground, Fighting, Poison, Psychic

1/16 Resist: Bug, Grass

1/2 Resist: Steel, Dark

Normal Damage: Flying, Fire, Water, Ice, Fairy

x2 Weak: Rock

>Burn Immune
>Toxic Immune
>Paralyze Immune
>Freeze Immune
>Powder Status Immune
>Trap Immune
>Still SR Weak

Kek

>Causes Judgment to always deal Super-Effective damage

Actually, Judgement can't hit 8 types at all.

>>29968225
A given Pokemon's check is something that can stop that Pokemon if it switches in under optimal conditions, like a commonly-used-but-resisted move, or coming in on a setup turn, or coming in for free after a KO or a slow VoltTurn. In Xerneas's case, the first check that comes to my mind is Mega Scizor, and I don't actually play Ubers so I don't know how accurate that is.

>>29968158
>tfw you swapped teams with your friend in Showdown with Ubers
>tfw he needed a complete team overhaul while you were running Banded Arceus, P-Groudon, Scarfed Genesect, M-Lucario, Evolite Chansey with Toxic, and Defensive Darkrai
>tfw he didn't know about the sleep clause
>tfw you literally set yourself up for defeat
I just felt like venting, thanks.

>>29968333
>Judgement can't hit 8 types at all
Explain.

So arceus didn't get some spiffy Z move thing ? that's gay you'd think he would get something

>>29968333
No, Judgement wouldn't become every type as well since its type is only technically affected by the user's plate. Omnitype Judgement becomes a mixture of the Battle Bond Water Shuriken scenario (where a specific Ability has a specific interaction with a specific move) and the Thousand Arrows scenario (where a specific move has a different interaction with the type chart than other moves of its type)

Basically, Judgement remains a 100 BP Special Normal-type move, but instead of being read as mostly neutral damage with some resists and an immunity by the type chart it simply comes up as Super-Effective on everything.

Yes, yes it is horrifically broken. That's the fun of it.

>>29968390
Type advantages and disadvantages are determined as multipliers, as we can see when we use Flying Press in Inverse battles, along with just general 4x resisted or 4x SE hits.

Immunities act as 0x multipliers.

There's 8 types that have immunities...

>>29968456
Why not just make Judgement 200 BP Special Typeless then?

Typeless is already a type, as we've seen from Burn Up Arcanine.

>>29968588
Three reasons:
One, for that sweet sweet Super-Effective chime when you deal damage.
Two and somewhat more importantly, for Wonder Guard. Letting the True Awakened God Of Pokemon get cockblocked by a fucking shed shell is Not Okay.
Three and actually most importantly, for STAB. Typeless isn't really a type, it's the absence of a type, so I don't think it's possible to get STAB on typeless moves if they existed.

Basically it's just to cover all bases.

>>29968675
>Typeless isn't really a type, it's the absence of a type, so I don't think it's possible to get STAB on typeless moves if they existed.

It is, it's coded as a separate type entirely.

Getting past Wonder Guard makes sense though.

>>29968337
Last time I played, SpDef Jirachi was one of the best checks to xern, as the only way for xern to beat it was 2 consecutive FB hits while under para flinch.

Basically a shitload of luck, but the chance was still there so it was a check and not a counter

>>29967708
What happens when Zygarde complete's HP gets restored? Does it turn back to 50%? If it doesn't I don't see how it could possibly be shit. I can see rest talk working out.

>>29969396
Seeing as you typically end up over 50% HP after Power Construct activates, you can fully heal up just fine as Zygarde-Complete without reverting.

>>29967168
Aerilate Noivern has been my greatest wish since that ability was revealed. That zero-drawback high-BP nuke tho.