Let's settle this. Since GameFreak was idiotic enough to

>>29860862
Dhelmise

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>>29860862
>>Rapid Spin is superior to Defog
Do we play the same game?

>>29860862
Give it a month or 2. More people are going to be biased to the new shiny starter.

Dhelmise is objectively better.

>>29860929
retard

>>29860862
Dhelmise is better in general, Owl is only good for Trap Passing, trap something you can set up on with Spirit Shackle, then SD/NP or something and BP. 4th slot can go to roost or maybe Giga Drain if that's your angle

>>29860966
Using Rapid Spin allows opposing Ghost types to switch in for free and Shadow Ball your slow ass, you dumb fuck.

>>29861115
retard

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>>29861137
>anchorfags cant come up with proper arguments when their shitmon is called out for being a shitmon

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>>29861243
>owlfags salty the supperior design got better stats and movepool

>>29860862
>Faster
Hahaha.

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>>29860929
If you're setting your own hazards it absolutely is. On the other hand you can't get spinblocked with Defog, but it is susceptible to Taunt.

>>29860936
"Yeah, this thing is so cool as a Ghost type. Ya know how it's pretty thin and sneaky and we already made Incineroar lose speed? We should keep this thing slow and it should be somewhat bulky, but not enough to actually survive anything. We don't have a mixed attacker among the starters do we? This guy will work, just move more points to Special Attack. Special moves? Nah."

"Hey guys! How about this anchor thing I drew?"

"Looks pretty sweet. Ghost/Water? Water/Steel?"

"Oh...I kinda planned for the algae to be the Pokemon. It's just carrying an anchor around."

"We should steal the signature move from our new starter and give it to your anchor! The kids will love that!"

Dhelmise is a better offensive pokemon, Decidueye is best at support

>>29860990
Trap passing doesn't work anymore, they removed it in gen 5. Otherwise the owl would actually be amazing.

>>29860862
Doesn't Dhelmise also have an ability that gives it Steel type STAB without the Steel type weaknesses? That's definitely better than Decidueye's negligible boost in Grass STAB when its HP is in the red.

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>>29861243
>>29861288
>two fags trying to validate shitty grass types

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>>29860862
>Rapid Spin is superior to Defog

>>29860862
>synthesis recovery

>>29861606
It is superior, Defog just has more mons available that learn it.

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>>29861588
god of ruse please leave

>>29861309
>If you're setting your own hazards it absolutely is. On the other hand you can't get spinblocked with Defog, but it is susceptible to Taunt.
Generally speaking you'd be insane to try spinblock Dhelmise, we're talking about something with 131 base attack STAB Shadow Claw/Anchor Shot as options.

It only takes them to call your bluff once and you'll be knocked halfway to hell. I'd rather take the opportunity to throw in something resistant and just kill it straight up.

>>29860862
Dhelmise is a straight upgrade from the owl,which is a shame

dhelmise has 3 stabs(steel[because of his ability],grass and ghost)has better movepool and signature move 2,there is no reason to use Decidueye on OU if dhelmise is there

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How the fuck is the Anchor better? That shit is a Trevenant 2.0. No bulk, no speed, no reliable recovery move, nothing.

If anything it should had been Ghost/Steel because that would be a much better defensive type.

The Owl has a reliable recovery move and its speed is not completely fuck all for the low tier, in which both Pokémon will end up be.

>>29862352
>no bulk

>>29862364
I'm looking at it right now.
70/100/90

Where's the bulk? Where are the recovery moves? This shit is lucky if it raises above NU.

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>>29861660
>It is superior, Defog just has more mons avaliable that learn it
The same can be said about Rapid Spin, to an even greater extent because some shit that learns it is both tankier than Dhelmise, has better recovery options and is faster and/or, learns Defog instead.

>>29862352
Decidueye has a shitty stat spread, hits like a wet noodle, can get easily 2HKO'd and doesn't really outspeed anything. It can't be a good supporter, batoon passer, etc.
There's shitloads of pokemon that are better defoggers/supporters and the SD/speed boost/baton pass Scolipede set is just superior to anything Decidueye can do as a baton passer.
>Le roost meme
Yeah, just like tropius, notcowl and those shitmons rooting in PU, also it won't go very far with that bulk and speed.

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>>29862352
I'm not impressed by either, but I DO think that Decidueye will come out on top thanks to it's more versatile utility. Neither Pokemon is going to be that great unfortunately. I think Dhelmise is cool and Decidueye is my favorite of the new Pokemon by design and concept. The owl can at least support a team fairly well and is unpredictable (even though none of its options are overwhelimg) so it might find a niche in UU or RU.

Decidueye = OU
Dhelmise = RU

Deal with it.

>>29862823
Decidueye = PU
Dhelmise = PU

Deal with it.

>>29860862
Don't forget the anchor essentially gets three STABS with it's ability boosting steel type moves. Not that steel does a lot, but it's still a plus.

>>29862823
>this piece of shit
>OU
it's not even torterra levels of good

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>>29862737
All that is nice and dandy until you realize these both pieces of shit will end up in NU, in which 70 base speed, those wet noodle stats and reliable recovery will benefit Decidueye better. Hell, Decidueye will be a good counter to Dhelmise probably since it can come in on any of its stab moves (grass or steel because Dhelmise doesn't have good Ghost moves)/block its rapid spin and retaliate with a BB.
>>29862813
Decidueye is RU material at very least. With some investment in its defenses perhaps you can use it as a defogger and run Nasty Plot on it, idk(I don't kare).

>>29862893
Taking out fairies is never a bad thing. It actually complements it's Grass STAB against Tapu Fiji and Primarina.

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Just watch. The owl is going to be so good she gets banned to AG. The only pokemon that had a chance against it is mega fug, and even then decidueye has the upper hand.

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>>29862893
>Finally have a mon with three STABs
>Physical Ghost
>Steel
>Grass
It's fucking nothing.jpg

>>29860862
The anchor shouldn't be Grass and the owl shouldn't be Ghost

>>29862823
I already know who this is. Kek.

>>29863254
The owl shouldn't be grass either 2bh.

>>29863371
>The owl should have its speed switched with its sp Atk.
ftfy

>>29863435
Nah because then it might actually be good.

>>29863544
Oh yeah forgive me, what was I thinking

How does Dhelmise animate in Refresh? Do they actually follow the "seaweed is the actual Pokemon" lore?

If not, I'm convinced it was originally a Ghost/Steel with Waterworker (or some combination thereof) that was deemed OP so they nerfed it with the Grass bullshit and forgot about it when they later made Decidueye Grass/Ghost because of how crappy Grass/Flying is (because let's face it, Decidueye's Ghost type feels slapped on no matter how many cultural association with death and extinct species memes you force).

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>>29863154

>Finally have a mon with three STAB because of ability

>What is Protean?

>>29863708
A mistake

but only for Greninja

I don't really know why everyone's trying to compare the two, they do two entirely different things.

The owl has access to
>Trapping Move that hits Ghost switch-ins Super Effectively
>U-Turn
>SD and Nasty Plot
>Baton Pass
>Roost and Synthesis

The owl will be banned from RU. Those stats + being able to Trap and either U-Turn to a Pursuit user / counter or Baton Pass is too fucking much for RU to handle. It'll probably lose out to Mew in the long run and will end up being BL2, as Mew can pass Rock Polish, but RU would be fucking ruined by him. (If Baton Pass ends up with a bunch of shitty soft bans again though, he could potentially equal Mew in usage).

The Anchor has access to:
>Steel Trapping Move
>131 Atk
>Ghost, Grass, and Steel STAB for neutral coverage on everything but Houndoom, Bisharp, and Pyroar

His placement will be entirely dependent on the Metagame. He has great offensive stats, an offensive Trapping Move, and decent defensive stats. He lacks U-Turn or Volt Switch though, so he can't trap and send someone in. His only recovery options are Rest, Giga Drain, or Phantom Force + Protect + Leftovers - basically all shitty. He does get Sword Dance so if you can trap someone you can bulk the fuck up and go to town, except his Speed is extremely poor. He'll be very useful against certain Pokemon - Specifically Bulky Waters - but he'll see a lot of competition from Ferrothorn for the same role on most teams.

Decidueye is a support / utility Pokemon, and is much more likely to compete against Mew, Dugtrio, Forretress, or other U-Turners for a spot on the team.

Dhelmise is a Bulky (Setup) Attacker and is much more likely to compete against Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Gliscor, and other such Pokemon.

The only real thing in common between them is their typing. That's it. Trying to compare these two is like trying to compare Gyarados and Mantine - they serve two entirely separate roles.

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>>29864329
I still just wonder how the archer owl ended up as just another Grass support mon. Or why, when presented with an opportunity to do a new Grass/Ghost, they made it slow and bulky with decent attack like BOTH other existing mons of that type AND the new one they just added. Even just swapping Speed and Sp.Attack on Decidueye would make it into a vastly different and superior Pokemon.

>>29863435
Should have been switched with its HP to make it bulky.

>>29860862
I feel like both will be UU, or at least the owl will, while the anchor becomes a weird mixture of ferrothorn and fortress and goes to OU
Decidueye stats aren't anything to marvel over, but they're high enough to compete with most UU threats and even outright counter some completely, plus can lock down baton passers and U-Turners completely, has a reliable enough heal in roost and it has flexibility in what item it can run as its speed is high enough and its attack is rather good
Almost the same can be said about the anchor minus item flexibility as due to its speed being rather low, but gets usability of trick room and can use certain items much better like rocky helmet and assault vest as it needs way less set up
In short, Decidueye is certainly worse than the anchor, but has enough stats to compete effectively with most if not all UU threats and makes better use of choice scarf and band, while Dhelmise can compete with OU threats and works extremely well with assault vest and rocky helmet, but is fucked over by its own typing

>>29865018
>swapping Speed and Sp.Attack on Decidueye would make it into a vastly different and superior Pokemon.

Yes, if they had this he would have been amazing. If he also had gotten any Special moves worth a shit, he would have been nearly as unpredictable as Mew.

He does differentiate himself quite a bit with a huge support move pool - if he had gotten Will-O-Wisp he'd be absolutely perfect, but as is he's very different and more than usable over the others. Decidueye acts as more of a hit and run Pokemon who can actually afford to take several hits and can threaten setup sweepers without using Taunt which is a huge boon.

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>>29866220
Decidueye is going to be the kind of Pokemon that can do many things, and that versatility will be its viability even though it isn't particularly amazing at anything. Thanks to poor design choices like high Sp.Att with no moves to use it, it doesn't have the raw power to break into the competitive scene on an OU level. BUT as you said, it has enough numbers where it counts and can still perform due to its decent movepool and typing synergy. It was any one of a few small tweaks (Hidden Ability, speed, actually having its trap move be unique, etc.) away from being great, but as it is I don't think it's as garbage or outclassed as some have said at first glance.

>>29866445
>actually having its trap move be unique
It's trap move is unique and is actually amazing.

A damaging Trap move that Ghosts can't switch into for free? That's better than Dhelmise's by a fair bit.

You're right though - everything it has is good, even it's HA is actually decent, but if anything had been just a but better he'd be great.

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>>29866905
Spirit Shackle is an excellent move, even though Anchor Shot is apparently a Steel reskin of it. Solid base power STAB, useful effect, and combined with Decidueye's access to U-turn, boost moves, and Baton Pass, it becomes a great selling point. Bare minimum, it prevents a double switch and gets you the momentum while taking a chunk of HP off the foe. It can turn into a set-up opportunity for Decidueye or the partner being tagged in, and the threat of being Shackled alone allows for some headgames. Decidueye's speed is too low for a sweeper, but it's plenty to be a wallbreaker or supporter.

Long Reach isn't bad, per se, but it isn't super helpful either. Stakeout would've been a godsend, as it would've made opponent's think twice about sending in an answer to the owl just to get railed by an arrow and stitched in place for a counterswitch. I'm still sad that it didn't happen.

...I just want to enjoy my new bro, not get prematurely disappointed before I've even picked up the game.

>>29866905
>That's better than Dhelmise's by a fair bit.
How? Anchor Shot can trap every type while Spirit Shackle can't trap Normies.

>>29867108
>Anchor Shot can trap every type while Spirit Shackle can't trap Normies.

Anchor Shot can't trap Ghosts - it's the same as trying to paralyze an Electric type or Poison a Poison type, Ghosts can't be trapped.

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>>29867108
Valid, but I think they might be referring to Ghost's better offensive coverage and that it can catch opposing Ghosts super-effectively. Anchor Shot can get Ice types, though.

>>29867108
Well that's true, but Decidueye can fuck over the anchor with ease due to the anchor having no usable ghost moves with its stats but shadow ball if I remember right so spirit shackle hits it hard as fuck, plus spirit shackle isn't cockblocked by fire and steel types, but anchor shot is still better as it locks down shit like chansey, Smeargle and blissey with ease so both has usability, it's just that spirit shackle makes up more by hitting extreme threats like fire and steel harder than anchor shot, but anchor shot hits everything and locks them down without prejudice

>>29867108
Ghosts are immune to Trapping effects, so Anchor shot doesn't trap them.

While Spirit Shackle can't trap Ghosts, it can hit Ghosts on the switch in for double damage, and Decidueye can U-Turn out of anything he can't afford to stay for.

Anchor Shot can't trap Ghosts, and has significantly worse type coverage, though it can hit normal types. No U-Turn to safety either.

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>>29867543
To expand on this, Decidueye feels like it was based around Spirit Shackle as the cornerstone of its battle purpose. Signature STAB move backed up by both U-turn and Baton Pass, Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, Roost and Synthesis, and just enough offensive movepool to get by in the form of Leaf Blade, Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, Low Sweep, etc.

Anchor Shot on Dhelmise feels more like an afterthought, or at least the trapping aspect does. I am curious as to whether the superficial similarities between D and D were an intentional joke or a ridiculous oversight.

Dhelmise
Decidueye sucks dick.

>>29867675
>Anchor Shot on Dhelmise feels more like an afterthought, or at least the trapping aspect does.
I feel the exact opposite. Trapping is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect an anchor Pokemon to do. There are a lot more directions you could go with an archer.

>>29867675
>I am curious as to whether the superficial similarities between D and D were an intentional joke or a ridiculous oversight.

At this point it's either an oversight or an unintended coincidence.

Like you said, Spirit Shackle is the cornerstone of Decidueye's existence. Without that move, he loses all focus and cohesion between his other moves and general strategy - he becomes an entirely different Pokemon. Hell, the only sets that WON'T carry Spirit Shackle are the ones that actually depend on the opponent thinking they DO have it and reacting accordingly.

By contrast, if you replaced Anchor Shot on Dhelmise with Iron Head, nothing about his overall strategy or game plan changes in the least. It's definitely a nice effect to have, but it may as well be a 20% chance to decrease the opponent's Sp. Def for how integral it is to his movesets.

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>>29868046
Design and concept-wise, sure, I'll give you that. In terms in moveset synergy and battle capabilities, Decidueye is much more built ot capitalize on the trapping aspect of its signature move.
>>29867937
Very constructive.

What is Dhelmise even a portmanteau of? Delve, demise and...where does the h come into it?

>>29868046
Spirit Shackle is crucial to everything about Decidueye, for all the reasons >>29867675 said and more.

>Spirit Shackle to U-Turn for Scouting/Trapping (with optional Defog for utility)
>Spirit Shackle to SD with Roost for Bulky Tank
>Spirit Shackle to SD/NP with Baton Pass for Trap Passing
>Free SD/NP on the switch (due to opponent attempting to avoid the Shackle) for Setup Attacking or Boost Passing

By contrast, Anchor Shot doesn't really help Dhelmise aside from a Bulky Sword Dance build, and even then it doesn't help too much because he has no real recovery to help him act as a tank (Giga Drain on an SD set is laughable). For all other purposes he may as well use Iron Head.

Dhelmise is not a Trapping focused Pokemon - even his Pokedex entry indicates he relies primarily on brute strength.

>>29868262
Demise and Helm. Like the Helm of a ship.

>>29868262
Demise + Helm

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>>29868391
Imagine if trap-passing got brought back? That would change everything. Or even if SS was a special move that remained after Decidueye left the field.

I remember someone said Shackle's effect in the data table was new rather than a copy of Thousand Waves, which briefly gave folks some hope, but that could be for any number of reasons.

So what tutor moves is everyone hoping for these two to get in a year or two?

>>29868738
If the same tutor moves return, Decidueye could pick up Seed Bomb, Sky Attack, and especially Tailwind in terms of things that could actually be useful. Knock Off is a big maybe, and it gets Low Sweep so maybe Low Kick could happen.

Dhelmise, I'm not so sure. Could get Foul Play, Superpower, Iron Defense, Role Play, Synthesis, maybe Magic or Trick Room? Most of those seem like stretches.

There are certain to be some new moves as tutors, too.

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According to >>29868109, it looks like Decidueye with a speed positive nature, 252 Speed EVs and a Choice Scarf will be able to outspeed everything below Tapu Koko (sans Talonflame at full health)

I wonder if it'll be able to hit hard enough with a Scarf though

>>29868738
Beyond basic shit like every Pokemon wanting Shell Smash?

Decidueye wants:
>Knock Off
>Will-o-Wisp
>Taunt
>Tailwind
>Literally any non-Ghost/Grass special move to make him not predictable as fuck when he uses Nasty Plot

Dhelmise wants:
>Will-o-Wisp
>Pain Split
>Scald (why the FUCK does he not get this?)
>Synthesis
>Spikes
>...actually, he'd legit like Shell Smash

>>29869047
>I wonder if it'll be able to hit hard enough with a Scarf though

Nope. 107 Base Attack is decent, but Ghost / Grass isn't the most fantastic offensive coverage.

There's also very little reason to do so when he's very obviously meant to be a Utility Pokemon.

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>>29869291
Semi-offensive utility IS a niche. Decidueye might find a place for himself.