>we don't allow moves/abilities that raise evasiveness

>>29571386
Except moved that lower accuracy aren't banned you retard.

>>29571386
Because during ban testing no one actually runs the damn thing and just theory craft a post that has little substance and misleading math.

Then if the vote doesn't go in the way the leader wants they get rid of votes they don't like and do whatever they want anyway.

They have a good simulator, and that's all you should really care about though.

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>>29571386
>QUICK Spin
>only learned by 3 pokemon
>neglecting magic bounce
>they allow moves that lower accuracy

Have you done any research?

>>29571415
His post's accuracy was lowered

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>>29571469
GOT EM BOYS

>>29571429
>Because during ban testing no one actually runs the damn thing and just theory craft a post that has little substance and misleading math.
>
>Then if the vote doesn't go in the way the leader wants they get rid of votes they don't like and do whatever they want anyway.

I really, truly hope this is bait
Please tell me it is

I will never understand how they refuse to ban stealth rock despite it being used nearly 100% of the time and being one of the main reasons certain Pokémon are in the tier placement they're in.

there are so many things wrong with this post I'm sure it's some sort of false flag

>>29571517
It's always bait, /vp/ is so fucking bad at competitive that it's actually embarrassing

>>29571523
>and being one of the main reasons certain Pokémon are in the tier placement they're in.
charizard is literally crippled by stealth rocks and it's OU what the fuck are you on family

"what is metagame"

>>29571568
>Smogon
>Competitive

>29571617
>your (You)
>deserved

>>29571583
Check where its placement is when it's not the best drought user or loses its x4 weakness

I think the biggest problem is that there's not enough ways to get rid of sneaky pebbles. If there were more moves that did that, or better distribution of Defog and Rapid Spin, it probably wouldn't be so bad.

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>>29571469

>>29571654
That's because it's a pokemon from gen 1 ruined by power creep--getting a mega helped it survive.

But, okay then. What about Talonflame? It's crippled by Stealth Rocks as well and it's OU.

>>29571654
AKA when it's not Charizard?

>>29571523
Because the meta without pebbles is even worse than one with. Flying types become broken by being immune to all remaining entry hazards and literally every non-grounded mon can suddenly reveal a reliable Sash.
Smogon is retarded for a whole bunch of different reasons, but SR is the only thing keeping this mess somewhat playable. If anything they should just make an arbitrary game change by only doubling its damage against Flying types.

>>29571663
Every tier has multiple viable options when getting rid of Stealth Rocks, though.

>>29571617
Still much better than VGC

>>29571663
Oh my god why cant i just win using my six favorite pokemon!!! i hate having to prepare for relevant threats!!!

>>29571698
It has one of the strongest priority moves in the tier. You're posting exceptions

>>29571704
Epic

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>People want to ban stealth rock
>People want to make things like dragonite more OP

tl;dr of OP's post
Le Smogon bans evasion because you have to use useless and uncommon stuff, but doesn't ban stealth rocks which ruins my favorite route 1 bug Pokemon. Why can't the metagame play the way I want it to? WAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

>>29571762
>It has one of the strongest priority moves in the tier. You're posting exceptions
So in other words, if it's shit, it's not OU material.
Seriously, which pokemon are so bullied by Stealth Rocks they aren't good?

>>29571704
He means when it's JUST charizard, ya dingus

>>29571727
Stealth rock should just ignore x4 weaknesses and resists. Less variation in how much damage it does.

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>>29571836
>stealth rock should just be spikes

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>>29571468
not OP, but

consider the number of final evos that learn swift vs number of final evos that learn rapid spin

pic related, and that's just counting swift, not considering: feint attack, aerial ace, shadow punch, magnet bomb, magical leaf, or shock wave.

They should just have a stealth rocks variant of every type, so I don't even have to battle, just ohko every pokemon on switch-in

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>>29571894
here's the list of defoggers.

>>29571894
consider instead that if you use rapid spin you solve the problem of hazards in one turn and if you use aerial ace you do like 7% to a chancey you moron

>>29571894
Distribution of those moves doesn't mean shit when bulky evasion abusers take around 30% from measly 60BP attacks.

>>29571894
Why are you using fucking swift as the golden standard for distribution? Should we hold every move to that?
Either way, these two >>29571930
>>29571894
still show that every tier has multiple options with dealing with Stealth Rocks. Keep in mind that a tier like OU has about ~60 pokemon.

Also, swift is a shit move.

>>29571962
>>29571982
These. Rapid spin and defog clear everything instantly. But swift is utter shit, even on mons like M Gardevoir or Sylveon that can max its potential

>>29571617
>Im shit at your meta so Im just going to say it's not real

kill yourself

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>ban stealth rocks
>unban evasion
>stall teams are now several times worse than they currently are

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>>29571468
>>29571930
and finally, all swift variants considered:
232 results (206 species)
206/269 total species lines = ~0.77% of all pokemon lines can learn a move that deals with evasion.
>>29571962
chansey used minimize
X used swords dance
chansey used minimize
X used swords dance
chansey used minimize
X used aerial ace
the foe chansey fainted.

>>29572049
So you want to waste 2 moveslots on every Pokemon to beat one move the opponents might or might not have?

>>29571993
>Why are you using fucking swift as the golden standard for distribution? Should we hold every move to that?
i'm using swift as the golden standard for distribution of swift variants.. should I be using feint attack instead?

>>29572047
But anon. You can just put a random swift or aerial ace on your sweepers

>>29572083
no, i want to waste 2 moveslots to combat a specific example, minimize blissey.
just like using subseed on a blissey right?
>>29572095
this guy gets it

>>29572049
i bet you have a lot of tour success

>>29572122
er.. chansey, sorry.

I think nintendo are to blame really, they should really add either more attainable ways of dealing with entry hazards (you can't even get defog without transferring from previous gens for fuck's sake) or added more variety of entry hazards (that are exclusive to each other and can't be stacked) so you have to actually choose between having a rock type entry hazard or another type that cripples different pokemon.

>>29572049
>opponent withdrew chansey
>opponent sent out quagsire
>X used swords dance
Fixed that for you.

>>29572186
what does switching have to do with evasion?

>>29572150
everybody that plays 6v6 singles plays on a sim so transferring is not an issue. we also do have a pretty wide variety of hazards

>>29572220
your setup mon with a 60bp move is useless until quagsire is dead.

>>29572261
>implying my setup mon only has 1 attacking move

>>29572261
>Pokemon only have 2 moves

>>29572086
No, my question is why use that move and equate it to Rapid Spin/Defog in terms of distribution? Swift has lesser requirements for a pokemon to learn it.

>Evasion becomes unbanned
>Mega Aerodactyl's only non-fly physical flying move is actually usable
Nice, do it

Evasion moves would be better if the stat worked like in Megaten, Hit/Evasion being the same stat so that a Pokemon with maxed Double Team can easily hit a Pokemon with maxed Double Team.

>>29572220
Switching has to do with everything because we're talking about a 6v6 format where every mon has 5 possible teammates to switch out to when facing something that threatens it. Chansey is never beating a setup physical attacker, evasion meta or not (unless it gets lucky with Twave rolls), so any decent team with Chansey will have hard counters to a wide range of them.

>>29572341
that's the point. more mons get swift variants than rapid spin "variants", therefore evasion is easier to punish than hazards.

>>29572366
>pokemon will never have smirk

>>29572341
additionally, it doesnt need super wide distribution, if there are usable mons in every tier then everything is as it should be.

>>29572370
So, i'm free to switch out from mence, to a bulky grass knot counter to quagsire as a cherry-picked example, right? we're back to square one.

>>29571855
In all honesty they should. Just with the advantage of hitting levitate and flyers too.

Smogonfags defending Stealth Rock is honestly baffling. It ruins 6v6, there's nothing good about a meta that revolves around 1 move so heavily.

The game is so much more balanced without it. For perspective, in 3v3 singles where rocks are fairly uncommon, you are actually able to reliably beat Mega Salamence/Lucario with things like Thundurus and Zapdos since they don't automatically have 75% hp on the switch. Same thing with Mawile and other fairies, fire is actually a viable defensive option to beat them with rocks out of the equation. People who say "b-but Pokemon weak to rocks would be too good" are clueless and don't understand that it works both ways.

>>29572426
>acting like you know anything about balance from playing battlespot

youre a moron anon

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>>29572420
Its not like they cant just ban mons who become too strong for it to ubers and AG anyway. Which they already do because "muh stealth rocks didnt kill it"

Nothing you unban/ban will fix competitive Pokemon because """competitive"""" Pokemon is inherently broken.

>>29572374
No, the question when you how many pokemon can actually USE swift powerfully? You don't have to worry about power with Rapid Spin and Defog and the like because simply using those moves gets their job--removing hazards--done. When attacking evasion, there's multiple constraints you need, but I'll detail one;
Is the swift user powerful? You need to be a special attacker with access to a boosting move (so that you can one shot the evasion user) to make this work--furthermore, going up against a special wall like Chansey completely invalidates this.
Now, something you could say to this is, "Okay, just pack a pokemon with Aerial Ace to complete the physical/special wall coverage", but in doing so, you're even further crippling your team composition, more than Stealth Rocks--which only needs one pokemon to deal with, with no turns wasted on boosting or the like. When you have to pack DEDICATED things to deal with evasion, you run into overcentralization and a stagnation of the meta--it's simpler and healthier to just ban Evasion.
Finally, Stealth Rocks aren't that big of a deal. You only pack a pokemon to deal with it if you anticipate you'll be switching a lot (a stall team), or if you're really concerned about a weakness.

>>29572045
>your meta

"your meta" doesn't exist, Smogon is not official and will never be

Maybe they'll ban it when we get that priority rock move next gen, same idea (sort of), but less brain dead.
That is, unless it's completely exclusive to Lycanroc.

>>29571386
>>29571523
>>29571836
if you played competitive at a level above fucking 1100 on the ladder, you would know that entry hazards are pretty much required to have a decent and fun singles meta. If stealth rocks didn't exist, singles matches would easily take about 150% longer, because you could just switch freely.

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>>29571386
>banned evasion
>no ohko
>teach every team member an entry hazard move
>cry about pokemon being broken, better make them uber
I usually just use the sim to build balanced teams, everthing else is cancer
>knocking out higher tier pokamans with UU feelsgoodman.jpg

>>29572546
who said anything about it being official? jesus christ family

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>>29572589
>>teach every team member an entry hazard move

>>knocking out higher tier pokamans with UU feelsgoodman.jpg
Are you new?

>>29571386
That picture needs to say Metagáme instead of Pokémon to be accurate.

>>29572461
I'm not sure what you're saying, I played Smogon for years before I moved on. I have a way better idea of balance than people who haven't played multiple formats

>>29572589
>Just UU
C'mon man, if you're not going full PU in OU rooms you're not doing it right.

>>29571810
>literally anything that needs to survive with Focus Sash
>literally anything that has x4 weaknesses without an OU attack/ability/movepool
>literally anything that doesn't fit well in a team with a Defog/Rapid Spin/Magic Bounce user

It really has less to do with "oh there are some good pokemon out there" and more "my team composition falls short because of the fucking sneaky pebbles meme and Smogon tier whoring."

Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes needs a kick in the pants like Drought/Sand Stream/Drizzle 'mons did. Problem solved. Everyone's happy. We can all go home.

But then Smogon would get anally devastated and they don't want people to have fun.

>>29572625
At being restricted on the game?
>well you got me there man, I actually like having fun

>>29572526
>When you have to pack DEDICATED things to deal with evasion, you run into overcentralization and a stagnation of the meta--it's simpler and healthier to just ban Evasion.
you have to pack DEDICATED pokemon "rapid spinners" or "defoggers" to deal with rocks.
>DEDICATED
6 pokemon * 4 moves = 24 moveslots, 2 moveslots "required", which may be placed on bulky attackers, boosters, etc.
>going up against a special wall like Chansey completely invalidates this.
chansey switching into a special attacker, unless boosted to ridiculous amounts, will cause a switch (regardless of the special attacker's moveset)
chansey vs a prepared physical attacker will result in the chansey fainting.
switching a bulky physical attacker with evasion-ignoring moves into a pre-evasion-boosted chansey, also likely spells defeat for the chansey.

>>29572686
You aren't even greentexting right, you are new.

>>29572696
>reeeee newfag
Shit son, I better pack my bags

>>29572719
See you

>>29572470
>"smogon has banned things to ubers/ag because stealth rock doesnt kill it"

fucking kek

>>29572546
"it's not made by nintendo so it's not official"

pretty much every competitive meta that exists would like to have a word with you

>>29572692
There's more than just Chansey that can abuse evasion though. Pretty much anything can learn Double Team, and one miss turns into many.

Also, the Spinners and Defoggers that people actually use have multiple purposes. Excadril can ignore Magic Bounce and Levitate, as well as hit Fairy-types super-effectively. Starmie has access to Scald, Recover, and Natural Cure, making it an effective status spreader and absorber.

No Guard mons would see more use, at least.

>>29572526
on the subject of areal ace, I submit that technician exists and sizor learns areal ace.

>>29572526
>You only pack a pokemon to deal with it if you anticipate you'll be switching a lot
>(a stall team)
So, every game then, yeah?

Yeah no, fuck you, m8.

>>29571517
the ban of multiple baton pass, moving greninja and aegislash from tier required the user to have certain rank, they can lower the ranks of the users to discard their votes or raise the rank needed

>>29572683
>literally anything that needs to survive with Focus Sash
And what fucking needs to survive with a sash besides FEARmons, which don't work nowadays anyways?

>>literally anything that has x4 weaknesses without an OU attack/ability/movepool
You need an OU attack/ability/movepool/stat setup to be OU. Your typing isn't what matters the most--it only plays a part in this.
Also, I'm dead serious, there's no fully evolved 4x weak pokemon that would be OU if stealth rocks didn't exist that isn't already OU. Seriously, go look.

>>literally anything that doesn't fit well in a team with a Defog/Rapid Spin/Magic Bounce user
What?

When I asked the question, I asked for you to give me concrete examples, not classifications. Do so.

>"my team composition falls short because of the fucking sneaky pebbles meme and Smogon tier whoring."
The only reason your team comp should fall short because of SR is because it has a common Rock weakness--which is bad in and of itself, as there shouldn't be a common anything weakness in your team.


>Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes needs a kick in the pants like Drought/Sand Stream/Drizzle 'mons did. Problem solved. Everyone's happy. We can all go home.

For the reasons I've already described, SR aren't as overcentralizing as the Advance Weather Wars of Gen V. Also, Tspikes are a terrible hazard.

>>29572800
>So, every game then, yeah?
have you actually fucking played the game

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>>29572800
dont act like you know about competitive if you clearly have never played at a decent level, brah.

>>29572589
>I just started playing competitively: the post

>>29572813
they can't do that in the middle of the suspect, retard.

>>29571617
>Pokemon
>competitive

>>29572692
>chansey switching into a special attacker, unless boosted to ridiculous amounts, will cause a switch (regardless of the special attacker's moveset)
Which allows it a free turn to use Minimize. The moment Minimize comes into play, it becomes an endless series of waiting and hoping the game gives you good RNG so that you hit Chansey. The moment it turns into a game of waiting on RNG instead of actual skill, the moment the game becomes unfun for skilled players (see the paraswagplay ban). This is what Smogon bans.

>>29571663
>surf now washes away entry hazards

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>>29571617
>>29572589

>mfw people like this unironically exist

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>>29571386
>Wanting stealth rock banned and evasion moves unbanned.

Gee, I wonder who could be behind this post.

>>29572358
Brave Pterodactyl when?

>>29572903
its funny because if sneaky pebbles and evasion got unbanned, it would only lead to even MORE stall.

and then, the same people complaining about entry hazards now would be complaining that Smogon is filled with stall.

you just can't win.

Do any of you fags even know what smogon is, holy shit this thread is cringefest.

>>29572793
And Aerodactyl also leans Aerial Ace. But that's just two pokemon.

>>29572773
sorry, was in the shower.
>There's more than just Chansey that can abuse evasion though. Pretty much anything can learn Double Team, and one miss turns into many.
there's also more than one mon that can pack accuracy-ignoring moves; and i'd argue that putting double team on all your mons is a much worse idea than putting an accuracy-ignoring move on all your mons.
>Also, the Spinners and Defoggers that people actually use have multiple purposes.
with such a wide distribution of swift-variants, i'm sure you can find plenty examples of mons with "multiple purposes".

to add, evasion users are also subject to (p)hazers.

Do you guys really want to deal with Unaware Minimize Clefaggot?

>>29572998
Double team can be useful in every battle while those accuracy-ignoring moves (especially fucking swift) usually aren't.

>>29571817
You mean a shitty starter pokemon? like meganium?

>>29572884
<trainer name> sent out <mon with high attack, and an accuracy-ignoring move>!.
chansey used minimize!
<mon> used <aerial ace>
chansey used seismic toss!

chansey gon die.

>>29573112
the accuracy-ignoring moves can be used fine as coverage moves, there's quite a few mons who can make use of a 60 bp x2 (for se hits), whose most powerful stab move wouldn't do as much damage

>>29573143
having to have both a physical and a special attacker with an evasion-ignoring move would be stupid

>>29572289
>your aerial ace user has the coverage to kill skarmory quagsire in one slot

>>29573069
Theorycrafting here, but it might not be TOO bad, because he'd have to get rid of a move that would probably be much better and you could still roar/whirlwind it away. Plus it'd be susceptible to never-miss toxic from a poison type.

>>29573245
>Pokemon only have 3 moves

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post your showdown or battle spot ladder when adding to this thread to prove you aren't completely retarded

The real facts about evasion:

Double Team is a very bad move
Minimize Clefable is the only genuinely good evasion user
Minimize Chansey is cancer but its normal sets are better
Minimize BP Drifblim is hard to use consistently

Moves that never miss are irrelevant because they aren't needed to break it. It's more about preparing for Clefable than preparing for evasion. Smogon severely overestimates evasion but I can understand why they ban it.

>>29573297
when you give them Aerial Ace, they do

>>29573439
>Swords Dance
>Aerial Ace
>Move 3
>Move 4
????

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>>29573330
pls no bully

>>29573460
>ive never played competitive

>>29572833
Volcarona?

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>>29573330
>>29573460
>Using Scyther in OU
Hope you like Stealth Rocks and Bird-Spam

>>29573471
Well the argument was that a pokemon with swords dance and aerial ave wouldn't be able to deal with both skarmory and quagsire, is 2 moveslots not enough for that?

>>29573587
depends on the mon retard

>>29573587
Not if it doesn't have coverage. Quag ignores stat boosts and Scyther has nothing to touch Skarmory.

>>29572406
But that's exactly how stall works in 6v6 anyways.

>opponent sets up Stealth Rock
>opponent changes to a Pokémon that walls your Pokémon's offensive type
>gets a free status move
>changes again when you do
>meanwhile your Pokémon lose between 10 to 50 % of health per switch, plus the status damage
>and Protect

Stealth Rock is just as broken as evasion, that's the while point. It cripples several types and forces you to either suck it or run shit moves that most of the time limit your Pokémon's ability as well.

It's bullshit.

>"b-but much Volcarona/Charizard/Talonflame are 2 stronk without SR!!!!1!1!"

Move them to Ubers then. That's why it exists in the first place.

>>29573618
>>29573622
Yes, that's the point, there are plenty of pokemon that learn both, and this is only one of these no-miss moves. For example if they had Shock Wave or Magical leaf, that leaves another slot open for coverage of other problems.

>>29573666

Those pokemon suck in ubers though.
Honestly smogon should just add a couple more tiers.

>>29573666
satan has never played an ou match above 1100 elo

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>>29572758
>all users are weak to stealth rock
>arceus-fire/flying/ice
>yveltal
>landorus
>shaymin
Pull another lie out of your ass, faggot

>>29571386
The funny thing is how Sand Veil isn't banned anymore, but people keep using it as an argument.

I don't care about Smogon but I'm mad when smogonfags get mad and attacks you when you play by the official rules and not follow theirs at events.

>>29572426
>It ruins 6v6
If anything, it's what saves that format from being a 999999999 turns switch fest.
>but spikes!
Flying types and Levitate.

>>29571386
>smogoncucks will defend this

>>29571778
>people think dragonite of all things is OP
it's good, not OP

>>29573666
Don't you know about wallbreakers? Most don't give a shit about stall and love to see someone dump a status move or hazard.

You are the idiot for using HO or balance without dedicated wallbreakers.

>>29573143
><mon> used <aerial ace>
>less than 50% damage because 60 BP is shit
>chansey used softboiled!

>>29571930
Most of those were from the TM, which isn't a thing anymore.

>>29573733
You seem to be the kind of person who thinks that super effective moves instantly kill anything.
Oh, to be pure and innocent again.

>>29574070
I don't but skarmpry doesn't really want to take special hits and quagmire (or any pokemon) doesn't really to be hit by a 4x SE move.

>>29574025
>what is transferring

I stick to Battlespot for my singles fix, so hearing about how big a problem SR is in the Smogon meta is surprising to me. Hazards are non existent in Battlespot singles, and no one uses shitty moves like Defog and Rapid Spin.

The fuck is going on in the Smogon meta for hazards to be this huge of a issue? Is it an inherent problem with the 6v6 format?

>>29574180
Well there would naturally be more switching in a 6v6 compared to a 3v3, so that partially answers your question.

>>29574180
Might be the meta, might be your ELO, might be a race thing.

>>29574180
3v3 favors matchup and offense.

At lv 50 Pokémon take 5-7% extra damage.

Smogon 6v6 is based around synergy and team building around cores to set up or break a win con, hazards are a must to secure a lot of 2hkos.

Hazards punishes passive play and reward offensive gameplay.

If your team can't break through a defensive core you are punished.

People here are partially right about SR punishing some team archetypes, normally the ones that can't break shit or are too focusing on revenge killing.

People that are punished by SR too much are just terrible at building real offensive cores or are too scared to play offensively. Hazards isn't about favoring stall, hazards are about punishing the lack of offensive momentum.

>>29571663
its not fucking hard to remove hazards if you use a good team.
>b-but i wanna use by bros!!!

>>29575039
Then support them for the metagame you want to use them, you don't see me bringing oblivious TR slowbro to doubles without redirection.

>>29573666
Believe it or not, Smogon actually tends to minimize bans.

If their choices are ban rocks and 5 other Pokemon, or ban none of them, without there being a drastic difference in the quality of the meta otherwise, they'll choose 0 bans over 6.

>>29571810
> Implying Volcarona is shit

>>29572589
>knocking out higher tier pokamans with UU feelsgoodman.jpg
Running own tempo, big root spinda with thrash, drain punch, sucker punch, and power up punch in OU is the funnest shit Ive done all week.

>>29571415
>>29571429
>>29571468
>>29571469


>Smogon is known to cause anal retentivity in players of all ages

How uncanny...

>>29573889
literally no one does this

I don't get why people bitch about Stealth Rocks and Entry Hazards, but then also think evasion moves would be perfectly fine.
One can be put on almost anything, can screw you with just one set up, and makes it pretty much impossible to do anything to your opponent after they set up a few turns.
The other requires a mon dedicated to Hazard setting (or only use one hazard and 3 attacking moves), aren't all that damaging to your team (unless you are a retard and let the other team set up full hazards on you), and are easy to remove or deal with.

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>>29576103
>all the people in this the reads thinks this is what I meant

No, you autismo. My whole point is that SR is as broken as evasiveness. It's not one or the other, it's both.

>>29572122
??? are you fucking stupid

>>29571778
What's wrong with Dragonite being OP? Powerful Pokémon will exist regardless of whether or not stealth rocks are banned, the only difference is that other Pokémon will be OP in this hypothetical meta.

>>29576492
>Marvel scale
>No Stealth Rocks
Basically, whoever gets their Dragonite out first and sets up is gonna have a wild time.

>>29576368
t. stallfag

>>29576368
It still isn't even broken for the reasons I'v said.

>>29575696
>Implying Volcarona is shit
What? Volcarona is good, I didn't imply it was shit. We're on the same side.


>>29573501
Volc is BL (OU, but not OU from usage). It can't do much against stall, and it really struggles against the common dragons/fire types in OU.


>>29575965
Did you even read the posts you quoted?