How does Sinno's pokedex without cross gen evolutions and

Its Pokemon are of less quality overall.
>13 legendaries

>>29536243
Feeling a bit chilly. Like a certain lack of heat, but I can't quite put my finger on why...

>>29536243
It's absolute shit.
>worst starters
>worst pseudo
>worst legendary designs ever
>worst fossil Pokémon ever
Gen 4 easily has the worst Pokémon to date.

>>29536243
not great, even as a sinnohfag it's the weakest one, which was also a common complaint around release

>>29536401
It matches the worst region and worst engine.

Still has the second best set of starters after Alola. but beyond that there are very few amazing Pokemon (literally just Croagunk and Drifloon lines) and only a few really good ones (Starly, Bidoof, Shinx, Buizel, Stunky, Bronzor, Riolu). Lots of mid- to bad-tier filler.

>>29536293
False, and legendaries are irrelevant looking at any other gen immediately before and all the ones after barring XY's.

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>>29536442
>False
You mean 'true'?

Sinnoh is the worst generation Pokemon design wise tied with Alola and taking away the few good xross-gen ones just puts it below Alola.

>>29536243
This makes me appreciate Alolas pokedex more. Out of all them besides the starters, I only really like the drug lion line, a few legendaries and toxicroak.

>>29536243
>without crossgen evolutions and baby pokémon
Want it or not, those are still part of the Sinnoh pokédex. Any comparison without them is invalid because hadn't GF resorted to crossgen evolutions, they would have made more pokémon to make up for that.

>>29536751
Good so we can start counting Alola mon for Gen 7.

>>29536804
And UBS. And count megas for x and y.

>>29536804
Anyone who wasn't doing that is just being an upset asshole. They have completely new typings for the most part, if they didn't have new stats and attacks it'd be hard for them to be useful.

>>29536401
>>worst starters
Fight me m8
>>worst pseudo
That's not Goodra.
>>worst legendaries
Okay, I'll give that to you. Too many of them and most of them are saturated.
>>worst fossils
Can't say no to that. Design-wise they were passable, but their typings are absolute shit.

>>29536401
Opinion

>>29536938
>>29536843
>>29536804
Nope. Those are forms (barring UBs, they can count). The 4th gen evos are brand new pokedex entries.

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>>29536804
>There's only 18 of the fuckers
Still mad

Captcha: Edge beware

>>29537217
>mega evolutions
Look, I'm not happy about it either, but it's time to accept that we aren't getting cross gen evos anymore. Megas were the cross gen evos of last gen, alola forms are the cross gen evos of this gen... even if they shouldn't count as new pokemon, Gamefreak treats them like they do.

>>29536293
Alola has 17 Legendaries.

>>29536401
I agree with you on legendaries, but the starters are only surpassed by gen 7's, Garchomp isn't goodra, and Rampardos is a bro.

>>29537217
They're new designs with different stats, abilities, and types. Having a different Pokedex number is arbitrary.

>>29537589
There's 20, actually.

Tapu Koko, Fini, Lele, Bulu
Lunala, Solgaleo
Cosmog & the Star one
Type:Null & Silvally
8 Ultra Beasts
Magearna
Marshadow

Plus Zygarde's 10% and 100% forms probably count as Gen VII designs now.

>>29537567
>>29537732
Except they are alternate forms, plain and simple. I've never been a mega hater (though a very small few aren't very good designs). Don't bring emotion or tastes into this, it's irrelevant. XY's dex shows megas in the same entry as their traditional forms IIRC as well.

Your own logic is also beat by forms like Deoxys and Giratina and Kyurem's fusions (different design, stats, & moves). But they are all each one pokemon.

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And here's Alola's pokedex excluding all legendaries and not-fully-evolved Pokemon

>>29537781
Type Null and Silvally are definitely not legendaries.

Zygarde is still a gen 6 Pokemon. He just got new forms in Gen 7.

>>29536243

>pretty good starters
>Drifblim, Spiritomb, and Rotom are awesome ghost-type additions (even if Rotom got fucked out of it later)
>Toxicroak and Abomasnow are awesome
>Giratina is one of the coolest legendary designs ever

Outside of those, most of the pokemon are really underwhelming.

People always bitch about the lack of fire types, but Sinnoh really dropped the ball on psychic types. Excluding legendaries and the cross gen evolutions, you're stuck with Bronzong and only Bronzong. Even with cross gen evolutions you get Gallade, Mr. Mime evolved from a baby, and Chimecho evolved from a baby.

>>29536401
Sinnoh had possibly the highest quality batch of starters to date, Garchomp is infinitely better than Goodra, and the legendaries look fine but are just overly abundant (I'd take gen 4's legendary designs over gen 5's or even gen 6's any day), but yeah, the fossils were absolute trash, and the dex was overall extremely weak.

>>29537889
Except Alolan forms have their own dex entries on top of not having an ability to switch between forms like the mons you mentioned,

>>29536243
There are just way too many shitty pokemon in DP. I mean there are good lines, like Croagunk, Drifblim, Drapion. Hippowdown is fun, but there are way too many legendaries, 3 fucking trios?! And a leader for an old one (Where is Regigigas? He's not evo, he's like Lugia)?!

Like the Krikitot line sucks, bidoof sucks, burmy sucks, cherubi sucks, glameow sucks, fuck combee being rare as fuck AND only evolving when it's a rare female, fuck chatot, and wtf is finneon even.

AND all of those guys suck statwise and in game! Like at least make them decent to use.

Best regional bird, 3 great starters and most pokemon and cool
There's a few throw away mons but I like it a lot more than gen 5's bloat

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>>29538140
>3 fucking trios?!

Nigga what are you talking about? I only see 2, and the boxart legends have been a de facto trio from gens 3 to 5, so gen 4 is nothing special in that sense.

>X sucks

Half of the Pokemon you mentioned there are early game shitmons, so they have a reason to be shit. Though you are right that it's a problem for the weak ones to overwhelm the good ones by so much. And you forgot to mention this piece of garbage.

>>29538119
Source for that claim? Regardless, a number of pokemon can't change forms. Gastrodon line for example. Some non-mega pokemon need items to be held to change forms, so it's not a matter of ability.

>>29538140
I was about to post this. Gen 4 was awash with forgettable, fillermons. But really, the only Gens that released a load of original new Pokemon were Gens 1, 3, and 5. I exclude legendaries too, because I don't use them or care for them and they're basically post-game. So, Gen 4 really suffers without cross-gens as well. The worst generation for sure in that regard.

How would Johto's dex look if all cross-gen evos were removed?

>>29538258
Including the Babies and Evolutions introduced in Gen III and IV or without?

Without it would probably be the worst Dex in the series, next to Kalos. With them it would easily trump Gen III, IV or V

But that's because most of the Sinnoh evolutions to Johto Pokemon are some of my favorites in the series

>>29538258
Better than this. I think it'd be around 80+ new original Pokemon. This list is paltry.

>>29538302
Nah, Gen 4's dex is the worst minus cross-gen and legendaries. It's filled to the brim with shitty fillermon lines on top of that.

>tfw I like all the gen 4 pokemon

>>29538358
I think it's apparent that all the even-numbered generations without cross-gens or alternate forms have the worst dexes

Gen VII breaks the trend of odd-numbered gens having good dexes though, so rip credibility

>>29536243
>14 legendaries

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>>29538258

>>29538867
Oh, remove Politoed too. I forgot about that one.

>>29537889
Yeah, my point was about Alolan Forms, not Megas. By development, design, and battle measures, they're effectively new Pokemon with their own lore to boot. Whether or not they have a new dex number is an arbitrary distinction.

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>>29538867
Did it with the model sprites

Fared a little bit better then I thought, but then I realized that a lot of these are shitmons before Gen 4

>>29539064
Reread the last sentence. They are not new pokemon, just forms.

The fact that they are called forms and are rebranded designs of older mons should also tip you off.

>>29536243
Riolu is a baby pokemon kiddo

>>29536243

Platinum is my favorite game in the series, but I think the new Pokemon of Gen 4 were godawful. Really, just the worst in the series.

>>29539185
And that's an arbitrary decision. Just as much as Mega Mawile could easily have been Twinmaw, Mawile's evo and Probopass could have been Mega Nosepass.

>>29536293
>imply legendary quantity has any bearing on individual quality
Most of the pokemon from 4th gen are great for their type, stat focus, design, and niche. Heatran, Cressalia, the two water babies, and shaymin may be the only true 100% flops of the generation.

>>29536401
what's it like living a life where you're wrong and a failure about literally everything? Do you always have to speak aloud instead of just writing things? Are stairs troublesome for you?

>>29539324
Except they aren't. You're just playing with semantics and being pendantic. They are forms, as dictated by Game Freak and TPCi. You have nothing to stand on. And as I said even your own logic of seperate stats, move pools, and designs can still make a pokemon the same, as we saw with Deoxys, Giratina, and others.

>>29538240
I always forget that Darkrai, Cresselia and Shaymin aren't really a trio but I've always thought of them as one. And fucking Carvine, why does that exist?

But most of those aren't early, only bidoof is that early. And early game mons can be cool, like Staravia or Luxray.

>>29539208
What? No it's not. It's the prevolution of Lucario. I'd say a baby pokemon has to be introduced in a different generation.

>>29537953
Crabrawler is cool, let him hang out with the big guys

>>29537954
>Napoopan not great
>Lucario totally isn't red for other reason unrelated to the pokemon itself
>Brozong is just OK
>Ghost blimp just OK
nigga i will stab you

>>29539923
Baby pokemon cannot breed unless it evolves. Riolu cannot breed and lucario can. Riolu is a baby pokemon.

>>29538867
>>29539122
Only further proves that Johto is just a Kanto complement and shouldn't be saw as its own region

>>29539812
Can I ask you a question ? If these really are forms just like every other god dam previous ones pokemon had, then why you can't change shape in between them, cause that's what a form is at least in pokemon, temporary. I bet if they weren't named after previous mons, you would argue they should count as new mons. Even GF counts them.

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>People acting like legendaries are bad simply because there are more of them.

Sure I guess.

>>29536425
Drapion is by far the best non-pseudo/starter/legendary of this gen.

>>29540114
legendaries are like the super saiyans for their own respective gens, when there are only very few the title gives exclusivity vibes that make them look powerful and influential, the more of them you add less influetial they become and the title loses its power

>>29540078
>I bet if they weren't named after previous mons, you would argue they should count as new mons.

That's literally all that defines a Pokemon. Given name, and Pokedex #. The franchise is about arbitrarily categorising the things you see into a list. If Alolan Muk was called something like #780 Lugoobrious, it would be a new species, but it's not, so it's not. Excluding the emphasis of name and number removes any reason for them not being new pokes.

>>29536401
Rating for (you)
>Worst taste
>That's about it really

>>29540032
Johto looks like it actually has more unique evolution lines than Sinnoh, Kalos, or Alola, but they managed to do that by making more pokemon that don't evolve.

The only generations that are really stand alone for new pokemon are 1 and 5.

Honestly, megas aren't really a problem, but they shouldn't be added to mainline generation games. They seem like they should only be in remakes or sequels (like B2W2 or if we manage to get a third SuMo game) as a way to add new pokemon without adding new pokemon

>>29537969
> "It was created when there was need for a Pokemon with the power of those mentioned in legend."
> It's literally meant to be a synthetic Arceus.

I'll take that bet, anon.

>>29539122
Don't forget that pretty much all the non shitmons are either post/lategame like dark cave or fucking Mt Silver

>Slugma can only be found in Kanto
>same goes for Houndour
>Skarmory
>Wobbuffet
>Sneasel
>Larvitar
>Misdreavous
>Murkrow

>>29537732
As long as megas, alolans and other forme changes share the same dex number then yes they are the same pokémon unlike proper cross-evolutions.

Take this test. Does the pokémon clause in official formats prevent you from using both ninetales and alolan ninetales on the same team? Then they are the same pokémon.

The problem with Sinnoh, mainly in Diamond and Pearl, is that a lot of the new Pokemon, even the shit ones like Burmy or Combee are just annoying as fuck to get, so you only ever encounter the same handful over and over again.

>honey trees
>daily shifting marsh Pokemon
>go into underground and talk to people 32 times just to get Spiritomb
>Rotom postgame until Platinum
>fossils require dicking around in the Underground and could take a while to get if you're unlucky
>Hippopotas super rare until you catch lots of Unown

Sinnoh has a lot of Pokemon I really lke (Torterra, Staraptor, Toxicroak, Abomasnow, Spiritomb, Drapion, and more), but many of them are stupidly annoying to get.

Also not having all the Gen 4 evolutions until Platinum was fucking dumb.

Alolan pokemon count as new no matter how much people want to twist words. Just because Megas arent new pokemon that doesnt mean Alolan forms arn't new pokemon. Saying otherwise is just you being stubborn for no reason.
This point will not be argued.

forms>>29542826
Imma chime in for a bit.

Whether or not Megas and Alolan forms count as new Pokémon is irrelevant. What matters is, that the large number of cross-gen evos in Sinnoh affected the number of new families. Megas affected the number of new families.
Alola forms affected the number of new families.

Contrary to what this dude said
>>29536698
Comparing Kalos and Alola to Sinnoh sans crossgens is completely fair.

>>29542980
You can compare the amount of completely new lines between generations, although I don't see the point beyond putting the newer generations in a positive light.

Just don't use it as a point when arguing about the total size of the pokédex.
>gen VI and VII aren't small, gen II and IV are about the same size if you exclude pokémon evolving into/from old pokémon!
Which frankly is irrelevant when talking about the total amount of newly introduced pokémon.

Mind you I'm perfectly fine with smaller dexes myself. I just find defending them with "if you do this and that than other dexes are small too" incredibly pointless.

>>29536351
Nonsense! There isn't a lack of fire types! You get the Chimchar line! And...uh...Heatran?

>>29536243
Gen 4 had one of the worst dexes. So many shit designs, half the Pokemon are legendaries.

Actually D/P overall was just complete shit. The engine was slow as balls, the region sucked, the rival was an idiot, everything was so bad. At least HG/SS balanced out Gen 4 a bit.

>>29537217
Any comparison without them is invalid because hadn't GF resorted to Alolan forms, they would have made more pokémon to make up for that.

>>29536243
>none of these are trade evolutions
Oh my I hope it's the same case with Alola's dex as well, I don't care in the slightest about Golem I just want to use everyone in there fair number.

>>29536401
>worst starters
What are Alolan starters?
>worst pseudo
What is Goodra?
>worst legend designs
What are genies?

Only thing I might agree on are the fossils

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>>29536243
>even without cross gen evos and prevos it still has more pokemon then Gen 6 or 7

I don't like how the early gens had a focus on a variety of colors...Gen IV's dex has a huge shift to darker blues and purples. If you ever take a look at a picture of the complete dex, you'll know when you're scrolling through Gen IV Pokemon.

>>29537567
>Sylveon

>>29544098
I actually like that, it gives Gen IV character. It fits Sinnoh.

>>29538242
Hey anon, where have you been during the last months? All the thing the other anon say are on the game's official website, heck, the dex entries are right there on the website for you to read.
Also, gastrodon? Really anon? You are trying to compare a Pokemon that comes in two different colors with Alolan forms? You could had use meowstick as a better example to backup your argument.

>>29544169
Not that anon, but they did the same with Megas last gen. Just because they have flavor text on the website doesn't mean they'll have new or separate dex entries.

>>29542922
The Johto Safari Zone was even more obnoxious than the Great Marsh

>>29540165
Up til now, if a form was unchangeable it had the same type and stats as the other form, the exception being Gourgeist and Pumpkaboo. Wormadam, too, technically, though the form is influenced by Burmy, whos form is changeable.

That's the difference between Alola Forms and pretty much every other form and why saying "it's just like Rotom" or whatever is different.

>>29536243
Alright starters, quite like skuntank and like toxicroak but other than that the dex is really meh. Probs worse what 6/7 desu

>>29536401
Wrong on all accounts.
>Unova
>Goodra
>Genies (Unova)
>Unova
Starting to see a pattern here...

>>29538005
>most of the pokemon are really underwhelming
>Drapion
>Skuntank
>Bronzong
>East Gastrodon
>Hippowdon
>Floatzel
M8 I will fite u

>>29536243
Wow, Snover is the only new non-legendary Pokémon that's catchable in the late game. Dexes usually go by where they appear chronologically in the game and Finneon is catchable after the 5th gym.

>>29544251
And we see that in new Pokemon from Gen VII, too. Look at Lycanroc Day/Night and Oricorio, they are pretty close to being the same thing as Alolan Forms by an other name.

Point is, you can count by new family or new designs or however you want so long as you're clear and consistant.

>>29542922
Hippopotas was fine. Many pokémon have a 5% encounter rate. The thing was just that you could increase it in this case.
I would also say the fossils were fine, since they were pretty common, and you could just keep digging to you found them. Not to mention you could revive them much earlier than in any other game.
I liked Rotom being post-game actually, but I can see why some wouldn't.

>honey trees
>daily shifting marsh Pokemon
Now these are cancer. Since they just include a whole lot of real-life waiting. Same problem with Mirage Islands in ORAS.
Also same reason leveling up Join Avenue is infinitely better than ORAS secret bases.
Grinding and low encounter rates are perfectly fine, but when you limit how much you can grind each day then that's where I draw the line.

>>29540826
So you think an NPC is going to challenge u using a legendary pokemon? Sounds very unlikely

>inb4 N

>>29543279
Gen 5 has the worst starters familia.

Literally not ONE new fire type besides shitran... Im not even bringing up that faggot Flint and his whole "im a fire type trainer... Not!!"...

Easily one of the worst dex's.. Platinum was fun tho and the evos to past mons was pretty good.

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Which one of these gens needs to fuck off the most?

>>29547260
6, at least alola variants are a bit more new pokemon like than megas