Why are z-moves such a boring and lame gimmick? Nobody talks

because they're literally just elemental gems with a fancy animation slapped on it. Only the Pokemon specific ones have potential to be interesting.

>>29376038
But it's literally one of the most pushed things in the game. There is toys,appear in almost every trailer,etc and nobody cares. Heck, people even assume the gimmick of this gen is Alola forms, not z moves.

>>29376028
I don't know mang.
Sun and Moon had already a fuck ton of changes to the franchise, I don't even know why they bothered with this over the top but ultimately useless gimmick.

Megas were fine. Those made with a bit of thought definitely revived some long forgotten pokémon like Pinsir or Kangaskhan, meanwhile, having one pumped up 150 move on some shit like Pikachu will aim to nothing because it still dies to a sneeze.

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It's just an extra feature for those that might have been looking for something along the lines of supermoves in these. No need for anyone to get frustrated about it. If it's worthless in competitive you just don't use them. And if you want to use them they are there.

>>29376160
I get that, but the tradeoff is that we didn't get more Megas which are (seemingly) a more matured and successful upgrade to pokémon in general.

Shit, even the "have your pokemon learn this Dragon Ascent variant so it can transform mid battle" would have been much much more practical. They'd still have their flashy moves, and we'd still get something worth competitively.

I know most casuals don't play competitive but as you pointed out, it would've been nice to have the option, wouldn't it?

>>29376276
It's still the first game of the generation. There's a good chance that the next game has the Megas and more alt Formes since the expansion of the games has seemingly moved, from adding features like the Battle Frontier, to expanding the choices of monsters you can use. In the off chance that this game does have a robust post-game and some actual exploration for once I think most of us can excuse the size of the Pokedex and lack of Megas in this game.

>>29376396
>It's still the first game of the generation
They're the only games of the generation.

Z-Moves are a saving grace you mong.

Masuda said the idea of Z-Moves is to encourage varety in team building. If EVERY Pokémon has the ability to use these super hard-hitting attacks, then it means people will be more likely to save a spot on their team for their favorite Pokémon, rather than only using the typically best ones.

Z-Moves are a way to give those weaker and less desireble Pokémon, a chance to be used by people who really like them.

So if you ever have that favorite Pokémon who was outclassed by something, you now have to option to make that Pokémon your "Z-Mover" and bam, suddenly it can stand on its own two feet, and be a wildcard on your Team.

Z-Moves are basically a complete rejection of Mega Evolution, in favor of giving literally every Pokémon the chance to shine for us. Maybe now we will finally see some diverse teams, rather than everyone scrambling to use teams from the same 10 most OP Pokemon.

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>>29376469

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>>29376579
>If EVERY Pokémon has the ability to use these super hard-hitting attacks, then it means people will be more likely to save a spot on their team for their favorite Pokémon, rather than only using the typically best ones.

Except that's wrong you stupid idiot. If EVERY Pokemon gets access to these incredibly powerful attacks, then that means EVERY Pokemon in the Pokedex gets bumped up in terms of raw power. How the fuck does a shitmon getting bumped up help it against an actually good mon that now has access to an even stronger move? The only thing this is doing is widening the power gap between goodmons and shitmons

Masuda is a fucking idiot if he actually believes this will create parity in Pokemon

Boring. They have little to no potential beyond battle as they seem too forced for anyone to care about. It's not even like they're pokemon which is what most people care about.

Besides that as bad as mega evolution was it at;east made some more interesting pokemon designs, sometimes, but with this it does nothing besides a fancy colored hyper beam.

>>29376627
>How the fuck does a shitmon getting bumped up help it against an actually good mon that now has access to an even stronger move?
Because these Z-Move attacks are going to be 1-shotting near everything anon. An """""actually good""""" mon using the Z-Move will be getting the EXACT same results, unless you're using actual shit like baby Pokémon.

As long as the Pokémon is half-decent, Z-Moves will make it an option.

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daily reminder that

MEGA SHINKA > Z-MOVES

If it activates Unburden at least Accelgor has potential now that Water Shuriken is Special.

>>29376708
why dos Mega Sharpedo has less teeth than regular Sharpedo?

>>29376717
It won't because z crystals aren't consumables

You're better off with an elemental gem assuming they actually distribute them

>>29376717
I don't think so

>>29376730
SHARKedo*
ftfy

>>29376677
>Because these Z-Move attacks are going to be 1-shotting near everything
Not really, given that immunities and Protect apparently still work against Z-moves. There's also the fact that after a shitmon uses the Z-move, it's still a shitmon.

>>29376677
So now the most important stat is speed? HEY WAIT THAT WAS ALWAYS TRUE

Plus good mons can ohko things without needing to waste their item slot. Z-moves won't balance pokemon, nothing will balance pokemon. Just use a tiered banlist if you want to play with your favorites.

>>29376677
So you're even admitting that best case scenario, a decent but otherwise underrated Pokemon might see more competitive use because of Z-moves as opposed to Z-moves in general just not being used at all because all of the good Pokemon that actually see competitive play won't bother using a glorified Hyper Beam?

So then where does that leave literally every other Pokemon? Still in the garbage, because any smart player would tell you that MOVES don't make Pokemon better. A decent movepool certainly helps, but the most important aspect of a pokemon is BST and since Gamefreak is retarded and absolutely refuses to go out of their way and change shitty Pokemons BST in order to make them more viable, the best way to make these Pokemon better is through evolution

Mega Evolution was a much better answer to the parity problem in Pokemon, they just refused to give Mega Evolutions to the ones that needed it. Doesn't help that they just decided to give up on it like a bunch of idiots

>>29376579
>Masuda said the idea of Z-Moves is to encourage varety in team building. If EVERY Pokémon has the ability to use these super hard-hitting attacks, then it means people will be more likely to save a spot on their team for their favorite Pokémon, rather than only using the typically best ones.
You and I both know that's complete bullshit. Nobody is going to use their bro Beedrill over a Scizor or Gengar. All Z-Moves do is add an even greater disparity between strong and weak Pokemon, why on earth would you waste your Z-Slot on a shitmon?
Megas actually gave shitmons a chance to shine. We'll have to see what 'mon-specific Z-Moves there are too, but I doubt it's going to catch on as much as they want it to.

At least kids actually liked megas because they were "cool". Z moves is trying to grab the YW audience but those kids don't give a damn.

>>29376749
>>29376751
>>29376756
>>29376781


Ok look. I am not going to say Z-Moves are magically going to fix Pokémon. Maybe I was writing too naive before.

What I do think is that the Z-Moves can open up a lot more options from overlooked Pokémon, and it will diversify competitive.

Perhaps not nearly to the extent of my original post sure, but this is very clearly a step forward that IS going to open up opportunities for a lot of Pokémon that would be ignored otherwise.

>>29376795
The only pokemon this will help are those with good stats but no good attacks. I don't think these exist.

>>29376811
I'm sure there are plenty like that. My whole point is this can help those Pokémon that get overlooked.

I'm sure there are plenty of fast Pokémon with not so great attack or movepools too.

I seriously think you guys are brushing this off as a disaster too early. At a first glance, all I am seeing is the potential to revisit Pokémon that aren't usually a first choice.

>>29376851
>At a first glance, all I am seeing is the potential to revisit Pokémon that aren't usually a first choice.
Like...?

>>29376795
>open up a lot more options from overlooked Pokémon, and it will diversify competitive.

It'll open up options in terms of already good Pokemon now having access to an almost guaranteed OHKO move, thereby making mindgames an even bigger part of competitive Pokemon or just making everyone so paranoid they run Protect/Detect on everything just so they don't get fucked. This does nothing to solve the disparity problem because even IF every Pokemon have access to Z-moves, smarter players will still use those Z-moves on the strongest Pokemon

What's the point of using a Z-move on a fucking Flareon instead of something like a Darmanitan? You could do this with almost every single Pokemon because in most cases there will always be Pokemon better than others. Just take a look at Flygon, nothing BUT a Mega Evolution is going to help that thing

>>29376795
>What I do think is that the Z-Moves can open up a lot more options from overlooked Pokémon, and it will diversify competitive.
But it's not going to do shit to diversify competitive, that's what we're saying. There's now even LESS of a reason to use weaker Pokemon if EVERY Pokemon has access to a nuke. It literally has the complete opposite effect of what was intended.

>>29376677
This. It also gives pokemon who have a move to "threaten" a switch in with an attack, like hp fire, to actually kill a switch in. I think it could be neat.

>>29376028
People only talked about Megas since you had people hopeful that it would make shitmons viable and powerful. Instead, it made the stronger even more strong. Z moves aren't that interesting since it's still Pokemon and we'll likely never get actual cool moves that doesn't involve some bullshit 30% burn or something.

Why not just buff shitmons instead?

>>29376908
>it made the stronger even more strong
Just like z moves

Can anyone name one (1) example of a shitmon that would see play if it had access to a Z-move? Feel free to imagine that Z-moves are just crazy strong, like BP 200 or something. But keep in mind the existing goodmons that currently fill its role also have access to that move.

>>29376942
You're missing the point.

The point is that Z-Moves can give the players the option to use anything they like and not be left totally in the dark

>>29376927
That's essentially what Mega Evolutions SHOULD have been for, and in part, they kind of were

No one was using shit like Beedrill, Absol, Houndoom, CHARIZARD, or Kanghaskhan before Mega evolution. The problem came in when they gave good Pokemon that didn't need Megas, Megas. However even then, they could have not been retarded and dedicated this entire gen to doing nothing but giving incredibly shitty Pokemon Mega Evolutions to at least make them a bit better but they pussed out

>>29376970
The issue is, you might get lucky and get off a successful Z-Move and KO something, but then that shitmon is pretty much dead weight.

>>29376970
And you're still missing the point that it doesn't matter if Z-moves give options to the shitty Pokemon that trainers like. There are still BETTER Pokemon with now BETTER options that are still BETTER than those shitmons with the Z-move buff

>>29376579
>if EVERYONE can use them, then obviously the best ones will STILL be used since they're the ones that hit hardest
>Pokemon with exclusive Z-Moves are already the popular ones and competitively viable ones like Snorlax, the ones with better alternatives like Pikachu, or shitmons that will be used as a gimmick that won't work against anyone with a fucking brain like Eevee.

S-So much variety!!

>>29376992
KOing something is better than nothing. Plus it allows little kids to use whatever they want in their regular playthrough and have them feel strong as fuck

>>29376992
Well it truly depends on the Pokémon.

Yeah there will still be tons of Pokémon that will be dead weight. But there are also half-decent ones that might be fun to use that could need that Z-Move.

>>29377004
I understand that. I am saying not everybody cares. Some people just want to option to use Pokémon they like, not everybody is adamantly looking for the BEST. You're literally sucking the fun out of something designed to help all Pokémon by saying "well us SMART players are just going to use the strongest and fastest anyways, scoff, scoff!"

>>29376579
Z-moves are more helping faster Pokemon that can't do much damage alone than they are helping NFE Pokemon. Trapinch still won't be useful as a Dugtrio and a Dugtrio will be somewhat as Powerful a Garchomp (for one turn at least) because them using a grounded Z move on a neutral or weak foe will all probably OHKO them, but Dugtrio is much faster than both of them (but only gets to use this usefulness for one turn and overall would be better with Sash instead) and is the best in that situation.

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They wanted to sell their own Yokai Watch.

>>29377034
No because you would use an actually good mon that would be more useful than just getting an KO

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>>29377034
>>29377039
>B-b-but the kids will feel good!
>M-muh favorites!

Good to know that you've basically given up. This entire conversation started because you kept positing that Z-Moves would make every Pokemon competitively viable. After everyone else proves that its the complete opposite, now it suddenly doesn't matter because casuals?

>>29377004
Yeah but lots of people want to use pokemon they like. Lots of people battle each other and don't know or care about actual competitive play.

>>29376992
Nah. Dont forget about pokemon like Ariados or Galvantula, that are useful for hazards but also have decent attack stats. Imagine getting off a sticky web then murdering the switch.

>>29377077
not that guy but isnt that mostly the point?
using something that can do bunch of shit may not benefit losing an item slot for one KO, but with other shit mons, even KOing or doing good damage to a troublesome mon, which in no other way they could work, does make them atleast useful for something

TL;DR makes shittymons do something they couldnt before

>>29377110
Why are you even defending this? Even if you are right(you aren't) then it's still a boring shitty gimmick. At least megas had some cool designs. Z moves are dumb cutscenes

>>29377093
>people playing the game how they like dont matter
>the target audience doesnt matter either
Whether or not Pokémon do become more usable from Z-Moves, which some will, you're an idiot if you think otherwise, that doesn't change the fact that this is giving everyone a more enjoyable way to experience the game. Competitive takes a backseat no matter what. Don't be an ass.

>>29377110
So your argument is that it buffs shitmons, but doesn't make them any more competitively viable because they aren't buffed relative to anything else? I think that's a fair argument.

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>>29377110
Then why bother bringing up Z-moves somehow being good for competitively shit Pokemon? If you're going to give up the argument just give up

>>29376730
Because they change place and pierce through its FUCKING NOSE holy shit that must hurt like hell

>>29377157
>that doesn't change the fact that this is giving everyone a more enjoyable way to experience the game
How? kids use their favorite shitmons in the main story. No need to use z-moves.

>>29377157
Again, you're completely contradicting the MAIN argument that was being made not only in this thread >>29376579, but by the man who designed them himself.

Masuda has blatantly stated that he honestly believes that Z-moves will make weaker, often outclassed Pokemon better which is absolute nonsense to anyone who has actually played the game. Pick a fucking lane, it's either it closes the gap between competitive or none competitive Pokemon in some fashion or you just gave up on this conversation because you have no real arguments

>>29377150
Why are you even back pedaling? I am right. MOST players don't get involved in competitive play. And now, you're expecting everyone to agree with your opinion that it's boring, despite over the top ultra powerful cutscene worthy attacks are super popular in Japan. So obviously people like it.

>>29377245
>So obviously people like it.
Proof? it seems people are just indifferent to them

>>29376795
>powercreep increases diversity

>>29377157
>powercreep makes the game more enjoyable for everyone

This fucking board keeps finding new ways to surpass its retardation.

>>29377234
Look, I am just going to ask you withhold your judgement. Masuda is an idiot, and he has made a bold claim, but I truly don't believe Z-Moves will be a failure. I don't think every Pokémon is going to suddenly be viable, but I do think players will open up to a lot more choices now.

If Z-Moves prove to be a disaster, then we can have this conversation again, and you can scream "I told you so!"

But right now, all I am seeing is Mega Evolution, except nerfed to only be a 1-turn thing, but every Pokémon can access this. That's the Z-Moves in an nutshell, and I think it's best we wait and see how it works out, before jumping to conclusions.

I can see Z-moves helping mid-tier pokemon the most. Things like Quagsire, Milotic, Feraligatr, Nidoking. Either bulky Pokemon that won't miss Leftovers because they have recovery or set up sweepers with big move pools that are willing to trade Life Orb for that one big hit to get passed their counter and allow the sweep.

>>29377280
It's not a power creep if everyone has access to this "power" you silly billy

>>29377283
The thing is, Megas are way more popular and memorable. Why change them for a shitty version? Instead of forcing z moves to sell toys, GF should have put more effort on Alola forms which people actually like

As just another point, isn't it really disingenuous to say that EVERY pokemon gets access to a Z-move as a competitive tool? What about a physical monotype and that type's Z-move is special?

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>>29377077
>They wanted to sell their own Yokai Watch.

>>29377168
Because I didn't say zmoves make anything competitively viable? That was the only response I made in this thread. Sounding bit overly defensive there.

Regarding competitive, no, zmoves won't help and probably won't see much use besides lower tiers. But among casuals, it'll probably see more use.

>>29377162
My point was more lots of people don't battle competitively, so zmoves can have a point outside strictly competitive play. I think that was Masuda's approach when he said he thinks it'll make shitmons viable.

>>29377321
More one-shots = powercreep. The baseline gets raised. Use your head.

>>29377333
Z-moves work off of the pokemons movepool. If they have a physical electric attack the electric z-move will be physical and scale to the power of that attack.

>>29377360
I don't play competitive and I think z moves are lame. What now?

I wanted my Mega Flygon or Alola Arcanine, not this shit.

>>29377123
But then you have Pokemon like Pikachu and Eevee with their own special Z-Moves, what happens to them after that?

>>29377446
Have any of pikachus buffs ever made it viable?

A shitmon with poor speed will die before it gets the chance to use its z-move against something like mega-Mence.

So no, I don't see how Z-moves are going to bridge the gap between non-competitive and efficient competitive Pokemon.

The only way to fix the power creep is to simply give an evolution to some Pokemon (Sigilyph, Girafarig), increase BST/fix BST spreads that make no sense (Flareon's a big offender of the latter), widen movepools, create new moves to give to older/weaker Pokemon, or simply accept that some Pokemon are just not designed to be competitive/useful in niche situations.

And fix some HAs (again, screw Flareon's HA. Should get something better).

>>29377518
Depending on how the Alolan forms turn out, they could be a step in the right direction for doing just that.

>>29377542
Alolan Sandslash is Ice/Steel with even less speed. Alolan Ninetales is an ice type with a useless ability. "Balance" was not a design goal there.

>>29376028
Masuda gave up on megas because he was afraid of making another megakang/megamence

>>29377542
How is giving every shitmon a dark or ice subtype balancing them shill?

>>29377542
I disagree. Alolan forms don't necessarily equal improvement over the original. Especially if the BST is still the same, just distributed differently and given a new type.

And we ain't staying in Alola forever.

>>29377580
Marowak has 3 immunities and good STABs, maybe a few of them will work, maybe they will all completely fail, I will admit, I don't have high hopes.

>>29376028
Because it's not something that innovative

It's like blast burn for every Pokemon, and instead of wasting 2 turns, it's one item slot

So is it true the reason GF doesn't make anymore cross-gen evos is because of Eviolite's existence? They can just remove it. Wouldn't be the first time they've removed something.

>>29377679
No its because they don't want to mess with the national dex or make new bullshiy ways to evolve

>>29377728
>>29377679
Probably a mix of both

>>29377679
They just don't want to do more Cross-Gens.

>>29377728
Could've evolved some shit like Dewgong or Jynx with the new Ice Stone.

>>29377748
>>29377745
>>29377728
Shame. I'd love to see more evos for past Pokemon that don't look fully-evolved.

Back on-topic, I refuse to use Z-moves when I get the games. I didn't have to use that Gigavolt Havoc one in the demo; just a regular ol' TB did the job.

Other held items are more valuable in my nuzlockes anyways.

>>29377748
>Slyveon exists

>>29377813
It's a shame. Megas did a decent job, even if I wasn't always the biggest fan WHY THE FUCK DOES GARCHOMP NEED A MEGA

>>29376677
This. Likiliki and explosion z move'd means its wiping 2 mons for 1.

>>29376579
My favorite Pokemon is Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet has no offensive moves, which is required for Z-Moves. unless it's getting a special unique Z-move for itself, my fav is not benefiting from this shit.

>>29377899
counter and mirror coat should count as a physical and special move for z-moves if im not mistaken, they will probably only use the base 80 power as base tho

>>29377899
I'm in a similar boat. I really like Lilligant, but a super strong grass move doesn't solve anything at all.

>>29376028

So you telling me that attacks can have 160 or more base power and can get STAB, are worthless? Yeah you can counter it with a correct switch (we don't know about protect yet), but that means you will have to actually think before using a Z move, which make these moves more balanced.

Also, use elemental gen instead? Don't make me laugh. The only case in wich an elemental gem is more worth more than a Z crystal is on a pokemon with urburden, also gems only give you a 30%, why not use a life orb instead?
Even if the boost the gems give goes back to 50% they are still weaker than Z crystals.

Z crystal aren't going to centralize the game like megas did, which show how much healthy and better they are for the metagame.

>>29377998
Well if Lilligant can set up it could be good

Z move of a Giga drain or HP could be useful

who am I kidding it's not much better

>>29378010
Gems are also better with Acrobatics since it lets you get the damage boost on top of freeing your item slot up.

>>29377679
They learned from Gen 4.

>>29378037
We don't even know how Z-moves work with Hidden Power. It might even be less useful than expected.

>>29377998
Yeah Z moves is not what is going to solve the problem of some pokemons, but is still a nice tool for other pokemons.

Heatran used the fire gem a lot in gen V, but them gems were nerf so they boost only 30% the attack, so heatran may appreciate a overheat + z crystal combo.

>>29378072
Yeah it'll probably recognize it like a normal type

>>29377602
Which is weird because Mega kang was exactly what people are saying Z-moves will do, make a previously shit Mon competitive. Mega Kang went overboard, but it definitely worked.

>>29378091
Heatran is already good though. And you know what else might use it? Draco Meteor Latios. This might be even worse than expected. Dragons shooting off their Z-Draco after getting rid of the fairy and still having enough oomph for one or two more Dracos. Mega Ray with V-Create Fire Z-Move or Dragon Ascent Flying Z-Move. Just kill me.

Ok, op, here is the thing: Pokémon is a game for kids. Z-moves appeal to them, they're very anime ish. You know, "here comes my super final attack!!!".

And that's fine. I don't hate them or anything. But for us, older players, all the animation is gonna get old fast. It's one move per battle, and from the demo, it looks like it uses the attack in the Pokémon's movepool as base damage. It's not garanteed KO. For the story they are overpowered, for competitive they don't look very useful.

>>29378134
No one has said they're going to make anything broken

It's just widening the power gap

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>>29378010
Yeah they are since they take up a move slot and only works once. Do you think V-create victini would be good if Vcreate only worked once and took up an item slot you dumbass piece of shit?

>>29378183

Please tell me you don't said that Z moves take one move slot...

>>29378297
>Don't said

m8

>>29376028
What exactly is there to talk about? They're just really strong moves.

They wasted time for actual new pokemon once again in the 3ds gen for two shitty gimmicks. Cant wait till nx and 3ds to die im so done with the gimmicks which is what the ds line started.

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>>29376795
OP, I like you.

>>29376870
>What's the point of using a Z-move on a fucking Flareon instead of something like a Darmanitan?
Because I like Flareon more and Flareon can fit my team better.

Because we already know how they work. Literally all we need to know now is how well they work, which we won't until release.

>>29377355
You missed Bakushooter

>>29376028
If Z-moves were more like Eevee's instead of being super powerful attacks that compromise your item, it would be cool.

That said if you're running a sweeper mon then I guess it's nice for Pokemon who have nothing better to run on the team.

>>29376579
Let's say, for now, that Luvdisc is my bro.

Okay, so the Z move helps Luvdisc knock out a pokemon, but then what? There's still other 5 more pokemon to deal with, and I already used my Z move.

Z move didn't make my Luvdisc useful, it just delayed the inevitable realization that I'll have to deal with its awful stats.

>>29379256
We still don't know how they work with status moves.

>>29379303
>wanting every single Pokémon to have the potential to sweep a team

That's fucking dumb. Be happy your Luvdisc even got a KO

>>29376028
It's for little kids to be able to take on a gym or whatever and 1HKO a Pokémon with their favorite shitmon

>>29379359
But see that's my point.

Luvdisc is still not a good mon. The Z move might have helped but chances are it was only able to OHKO a pokemon due to that one also being shit.

At best Z moves make shitmon usable once per battle and only if they have to deal against other shitmon.

>>29376579
So how's it work, I can give any mon their type's Z-move? Or is it gonna be like blast burn and shit where there's only like 4 of them

>>29380001
Every type has a unique Z-move.

>>29379359
Well that's exactly the thing though, potential. Specifically unrealized potential. Unless the z-moves are +6 priority or something it still has to cope with the shitty speed and atk/spa of the mon.. A lot like how a hyper beam isn't gonna save a caterpie, the z-moves aren't going to do anything other than give already strong mons a free breaker move to rip through high def/spec def and double resistant mons.