So, we already know of 58 Alola Pokemon (including unnamed pikipeck

>>29144820
I think we'll get more than XY gave us, but less than the usual odd number gen.
My gut says about 90

>>29144823
And add 30 alola forms to that. It makes a decent 120

>>29144823
That seems pretty fair. I'm sure salandit and crabrawler evolve at least once.

>>29144835
Should we count alola forms as different Pokemon though?
Not arguing just genuinely curious

>>29144854
We didn't count megas when gen 6 happened so I guess we shouldn't count alola forms.

>>29144854
New moveset, New typing, New abilities, I'd say yes.

add remaining tapus, marshadow, evolutions for wimpod, morelull, a pre evo for drampa, snowman, and some other misc lines they're hiding and it will probably be 80-90.

XY had 30 hidden Pokemon.

>>29144877
You can't use megas outside of battle. Saying that, we don't count Rotom forms as new Pokemon.

>>29144854
no

nobody counts rotom or deoxys' forms as new pokemon so I'm not going to suddenly count alolan forms as new pokemon just to make the game look better.

>>29144854
It depends on what you prioritize most about a pokemon.
They have new types, often new abilities, most will likely have changed stats. and their movepool will be different due to the new typing.
really the only thing making them a "form" is the name and a similar design.

>>29144923
>>29144879
>>29144877
>>29144854
Let's say we'll only count alola forms if they have their own dex slot, which is pretty unlikely.

Anyway, one will always find a reason why we should or shouldn't count them.

Having their own dex entry would help to decide.

>>29144942
On the other hand, Rotom's forms only change a single type and one move. and hell, originally they didn't even change type.
While Deoxys retains its same typing across the board.

File: 1476399556545.jpg (48KB, 470x475px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 470x475px

>>29144820

>>29144960
However, it feels like Alolan Forms are gamefreak's attempt to compromise.
They've already said they want to slow down on the dex entries, but people want new pokemon to use. Making a pokemon that's new in almost every way, but shares a name, and thus a dex number, solves this.

>>29144960
I think it's likely they'll have their own dex paragraph, but it could go either way with them getting their own dex number. From a development standpoint, they're basically new Pokemon.

>>29144989
there are plenty of evolutions that have little to no difference in type or movepool. they're still not new pokemon regardless.

>>29144960
We might as well just count Alola Forms as honorary new Pokemon.

They aren't outright new Pokemon, because they're still obviously the old Pokemon species. However, Alola forms are given completely new backstories and personality quirks that make it seem as if they may as well be new Pokemon.

So while Alola Forms aren't completely new Pokemon, they could be considered a part of the new Pokemon.

>>29144960
What if it's the same Dex number but two different entries?

>>29144989
We don't count the different Wormadam forms as different Pokemon.

>>29144942
>>29144923

The difference is that Alolan Formes are permanent, "natural" changes (they are formes only as far as the name) while Rotom and Deoxys are typically caught in a base form and changed via player influence.

>>29145010
>>29145019
>>29145033
>>29145036
That's exactly why I think it's hard to choose a side before the release.

If they have a different dex number or a different dex entry, I guess we could count them as new.

>>29144942
That's probably because Rotom and Deoyxs can switch between their forms at will. A closer comparison would be Wormadam, but even that only exists because its lower stage had a type changing gimmick.

>>29145036
I think this is very likely since they're so different

of course, they might actually have their own dex numbers just to save the headache

>>29145078
but then there are ones like wormadam are basculin that are permanent just like alolan forms.

it doesn't matter, they're still not new pokemon

>>29145057
They all have the same BSTs and similar level up movesets. It's also a flavor thing since it's the same bagworm in different coverings

but I feel that we should, since we call the elemental monkeys different Pokémon

>>29145106
And the monkeys are all different Pokémon, I'm sure. These are a lot more than a type difference and cosmetic change, anon.

>>29145106
Wormadam and Basculin are one-off Pokemon with gimmicks that change an aspect of them. The Alola forms are a different beast altogether, since it's an entire subcategory of Pokemon.

>>29145032
There's a difference in here. Some Alolan forms aren't simply just an evolution of a previous mon, they are an entirely new line on mons complete with ability, type and movepool. And even for evolutions, they probably would count as well, remember all the evolutions in Gen 4 ? This is literally the exact same situation. They probably even are part of the regional dex of Alola and count as separate mons, probably even in the national dex.

So yes, I think we should count at least for the dex.

>>29145124
>since we call the elemental monkeys different Pokémon

yes because they have different dex numbers, different names, different evolution families.

alolan forms aren't new pokemon no matter how much you want them to be.

>>29145106
>it doesn't matter, they're still not new pokemon
But at the same time, Game Freak themselves could potentially be looking at the Alola Forms as 'new Pokemon' in the sense that they've taken the Pokemon and made something new out of them, while also making completely new origin backstories and personality quirks.

>>29145146
Holy fuck, anon

Alolan Vulpix also has a different evolution family

the name and dex number are literally the least important part of the Pokémon

>>29144854
Categorically, no. They won't add to the dex count. Mechanically, yes. Especially if their learnsets are different enough and/or their BST is changed or rearranged. New typing, ability, base stat spread/total, and moves is mechanically something new, even if the on-screen graphic is reminiscent of another Pokemon or just a recolour.

Many people, perhaps even Gamefreak, probably saw the introduction of Megas as a way to bolster the new Pokemon count in X and Y similarly, considering almost as much work probably goes into them as new Pokemon, but in this case, and also with regards to comparing alola forms to other alternate forms, they aren't directly tied to another Pokemon. I don't have to send out Meowth and transform it into alolan Meowth. I don't have to take Sandshrew to a box in someone's office and turn it into Sandshrew-Fridge. They're new.

>>29145134
>These are a lot more than a type difference and cosmetic change, anon.

So is Wormadam. Yet it's still a form.

>>29145136
I literally don't see how this matters. 50 form changes are still just form changes.

>>29145143
>This is literally the exact same situation
But it isn't because they have a different dex number and get strictly more powerful just like any other evolution instead of just redistributing stats.

>Some Alolan forms aren't simply just an evolution of a previous mon
Neither are some forms.

Lets say all Alolan pokemon have the following:
>Different type
>Different stat distribution
>Different learnset
>Different design
>Different Dex entry
>Same Name
>Same Dex Number

Would you consider them new pokemon or not?

>>29145170
>Alolan Vulpix also has a different evolution family

Vulpix -> Ninetales
Vulpix -> Ninetales

the family is the same. This is like saying Pumpkaboo's forms should be different pokemon just because they can't evolve into one another and they're separate.

>the name and dex number are literally the least important part of the Pokémon
no, it matters for completing the pokedex and possibly for how they breed.

>>29145187
No, Wormadam is the same Pokémon with a recolored moveset. These are a lot more. They are effectively new Pokémon even if they share a dex number.

>>29145209
Same Pokemon.

Rotom has different type, different stats, different learnset, different design, that doesn't make its forms a separate Pokemon. Same goes for Wormadam and Deoxys.

>>29145224
>is the same Pokémon with a recolored moveset.

what the fuck does this even mean? It's still a different moveset. For all you know alolan forms could also have a so called "recolored" moveset.

>>29145187
You simply don't get it, do you ? These by technicality are new mons since they are new evolutions of something old, they're not just form. Yes Wormadam is a thing, but like I said, some of these lines have had so many changes done to them, they could count as new mons.

Why do you think I brought up Gen 4 ? Because this is it, they're new evolutions, not simply forms andI wouldn't ne surprised if they cover there own dex slot.

>>29145246
It is recolored. They're the same moveset except for three or four moves swapped out for each STAB.

>>29145237
The only one that could have a point there is Wormadam, all the other ones are reversible in nature. Alolan forms are not.

File: pichu4[1].jpg (53KB, 670x402px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 670x402px

>>29145255
>so many changes done to them
Like what? Stats? Wormadam has that. Type? Wormadam has that. Moves? Wormadam has that.

>andI wouldn't ne surprised if they cover there own dex slot.
But they don't. The whole point is that it's the same Pokemon but it just adapts differently for another region. Alola Raichu is still just "Raichu." Notice how in Pikachu's dex entry it only has the one other pokeball and not two?

>>29145209
New gameplay and that's all that matters to me.

>>29145255
Despite considering them basically new pokemon, I don't think they'll take up a dex slot on their own, unless its like, 027-A or something.
Gamefreak has expressed they wish to slow down the increase in dex size. However, people want new pokemon to play with. Giving a regional variant of a pre-existing pokemon allows for a Pokemon that plays like a new pokemon but takes up the same slot, slowing down the increase while giving a new toy to play with.

File: 1458153806140.png (292KB, 800x718px) Image search: [Google]

292KB, 800x718px

>>29145255
It's best to just drop it. It's clear you won't be able to get him to change his mind, as he appears to be stuck in one mindset, refusing to honestly consider the bigger picture and possibilities.

Save yourself some trouble and just stop trying to debate with someone refusing to see what others are trying to say.

Alternatively, they're just arguing devil's advocate for the sake of it.

>>29145301
I guess you're right. The datamine might clear up this stupidity once and for all.

This is an argument of semantics. There is clearly a defined set of parameters on what makes up a Pokemon, and different people have different opinions on which or how many of those parameters determine whether or not a Pokemon is new. Alola forms feature the most extreme changes to these parameters of all alternate forms to date, but if someone won't yield on the idea that the Pokedex number and name are what distinguish Pokemon, you aren't going to change their mind by saying how many other things have changed over and over again.

>>29145301
What bigger picture? Pokemon are Pokemon and forms are forms.

>>29145293
>implying anyone likes wormadam

>>29145301
He's comparing them to stuff like Rotom and Deoxis so I guess you're right.

I think Morelull has a shot at being a three-stage now that we've seen Tsareena. Maybe a prim and proper ladymon in contrast to the fruity hooker?
Salandit and Wimpod will definitely get another stage. Crabrawler, Turtonator, Komala, the primates, the squishy sea cucumber (drawing a blank) all seem likely for an evo. I still wonder if Cutiefly could get a third stage. They gotta keep a few surprises under wraps.

>>29145354
>he's comparing things that have different type, stats, movepool and design but not a new pokemon to things have different type, stats, movepool and design but not a new pokemon

yeah god forbid

>>29145322
Shut up Richard

>>29144820
Things we will see:
>Obviously, Robinhoot, Luchalitten, and Poppmaid. That's a given.
>Pikipek's two evos.
>The three other Tapu's.
>Solgaleo and Lunala trio master.
>More legendaries/some mythicals, obviously.

Things we're likely to see:
>Wimpod evo.
>Morelull evo.
>Ice/Ghost snowman.

Things that are possibilities:
>Komala evo.
>Drampa pre-evo.
>Salandit evo.
>Comfey evo.
>Turtonator pre-evo.

>>29145390
Are the Tapu's basically the trio masters but instead of a trio their a quartet?

>>29145010
Can the series even handle more meshes/textures of pokemons in their new form/shiny/whatever?

>>29145782
On the 3DS? not really. the 3DS uses an format that limits the size of any given file to 4 GB. SM as it is reaches 3.2

>>29145794
So the answer is actually yes, there is about 25% more space to use? Which can be quite a large amount of content if no sound is involved. Not to mention the 3DS will probably not have the next generation on it anyway.